 and to the wide world of eSports, a show devoted to all things eSports. I'm your host, Catherine Norr. Today, our topic is gambling as mainstream entertainment, gaming in the US and beyond. My guest is Brendan Busman, partner and director of Government Affairs at Global Market Advisors. Welcome, Brendan. Thanks for having me. Appreciate being with your audience today. All right, so we've had you on before, but remind us, what does global market advisors do? So it's a gaming and hospitality consulting firm that has done work all around the globe. Primarily, my role is looking at government affairs and regulation, business development, strategic advisory opportunities, but also the firm does feasibility work and looking at new market opportunities around the globe. So I understand that you're in Vegas. Has there been an emergence of eSports betting in Nevada? So, you know, it's very much of a evolving topic, is probably the word I'll use the best off of. Initially, Nevada went and this was probably four or five years ago, added the quote, other events to sports betting. And what that included was to allow things like eSports and if there's other specific, you know, events such as the Academy Awards or those types of things to allow wagering on. And you definitely then saw a group of people that decided to say, hey, how do we make this much more of a reality? And you saw groups like Fifth Street Gaming and even the Luxor start looking much more into the eSports, where it has really advanced and this is actually just within the last couple of weeks. When our legislature met last year, we only meet every other year. There was an initiative to try to make eSports, you know, start leading the way from a jurisdictional standpoint to allow that as a wagering opportunity. And the bill at one point said, you know, that they would form their own commission to be able to do that. They got rolled under the Nevada Gaming Commission. And the work group was just announced actually last week that's putting forward this effort. And it's an all-star panel of people that understand eSports in Nevada to be able to look at this in a much more meaningful way so that eSports can be, you know, wagered on just like we would a NCAA game you may watch tonight or an NBA game or baseball when it decides to have a season. Is there any real difference between sports betting and? You know, in the big scheme of things, no, there really isn't. But I think the difference where people have had, I'll call it issue is a couple of things. One, they don't necessarily understand how eSports works. It isn't something that, you know, I can turn on my TV and I can watch an NBA game tonight. I can watch a hockey game tonight. I can look at these things and say, how do I meaningfully go and put a wager because I know the players, I know this game, I know all those things. It's something that very much is out there that's new that necessarily bookmakers don't necessarily know where to put things in. The other challenge that has existed within that is, you know, making sure everybody's on a level playing field. And I say that saying, you know, if people are in different venues, making sure circumstances are the same, people don't have an advantage, one or the other over everything. Versus if I turn on the TV tonight, I don't know if the Lakers are playing or not, but if the Lakers are playing, I know whoever they're playing. I know the venue they're in. I know it's a controlled environment. I know who the refs are. It's all within that structure to say, hey, here's what's going on. And here's the refs. Here's how it's sanctioned everything else. As eSports has continued to evolve, though, that's something that definitely, you know, is an opportunity for that to continue to grow as a listed category amongst wagers, not just here in Nevada, but elsewhere throughout the United States. So when the legislators actually actual legislators, I would think they may not know much about eSports. Do they have to be educated on it? Yes, they do. And not only is that just on eSports, but that's just on sports betting in general. You know, as we were talking a little bit prior to the show, you know, there were two states alone today, Missouri and Alabama that were talking about sports betting and helping legislators understand what that's like and not only from the standpoint of how do you legislate and regulate sports betting on the NFL, but now you're throwing in a whole conundrum going, okay, you wanna have wagers on people that play video games because that's the way they interpret it along the way. You know, some of these legislators probably think Pac-Man is still the popular game over everything and don't understand the modern, you know, sports that are out there as eSports and the popularity of it, especially with that younger demographic. So there's definitely, I mean, an education phase overall on how sports betting works, but then to that same extent, how eSports can be a component of that that helps drive that even further. I taught an introduction to eSports class for people over 50 and I think I should do an introduction to eSports class for legislators. It would, I'll be honest with you, it would be very helpful and I say that knowing a couple of things. One is, you know, every jurisdiction, well, it's different whether it's, you know, the two I mentioned today of Alabama and Missouri, the no different than Hawaii and other places I've been this week between Minnesota and Nebraska and other places, you know, there are common things in every one of those jurisdictions that people need to understand about tax rates and, you know, promotional play and how you regulate the integrity of the game. All of those different things. All those same things apply to eSports and how you do that. You know, the overlay that you bring up in a very valid way is what actually are eSports and how does it actually work? Because, you know, to most people, it's not something they turn on and they see highlights off a sports center or Fox Sports or anything else. It's one of those that, hey, I happen to catch some weird show that was on on a Saturday morning type thing and I didn't know what they were doing. Could someone explain it to me? Or do you know what the demographics are for eSports betting versus sports betting? Well, obviously, you know, I think it depends on the customer of that, you know, who that appeals to and who's actually doing that. And that's one of the reasons and, you know, myself and colleagues around the country that focus on this have been talking about this for a number of years since the repeal of PASPA to be able to start introducing this because, you know, attracting a younger demographic to not only, you know, sports betting, but also a casino type environment is something that's desired by the whole industry because as people play more and more and they, you know, get in that older demographic and have slot player, table play because it's what they're used to and what they've done, they don't necessarily know what the new games are there and we need to make sure those people are attracted to that as just as much, you know? But the other thing with that too is while that does appeal to a younger customer, I think the one thing we learned out of the pandemic when, you know, there weren't a lot of sports out there and there weren't a lot of things. One, eSports helped fill the void and were some of the first things approved here in Nevada that were out there, whether it be, you know, the eNASCAR and some of those types of things that were, hey, let's get a couple of drivers and simulators and see where they go, but, you know, that attracted not only a new customer that understood what was going on, but, you know, dedicated sports wagers that are looking for additional content, that's what the pandemic taught us is as things where people are more exposed to these types of events and other alternatives, just as you would look at Colorado and the amount of money that's wagered on table tennis, which most people would be like, why is table tennis important? And it's a fascinating sport to watch, but it's not one of those that everybody said out of the gate, oh, I've got to make sure I get my wagers in for the NBA and oh, I've got Korean table tennis tonight to watch. So, you know, it's definitely something that's evolving no different than, you know, as they try to attract other things, which one of the next big horizons besides these sports is fixed odds wagering, and that relates to paramutual wagering to get more people involved in the horse industry. Sure, so if I go to Vegas and I haven't, and I usually go at least every year, and Hawaii people go all the time, yep. If I go to on the strip to any casino, would I see esports in a sports book area? You know, chances are you probably wouldn't out of the gate over everything. There's going to be certain ones that are probably going to cater that more than others. And granted, I haven't been there to look at their board recently, but you know, you've got the esports venue over at Luxor that has, you know, the arena there and a great venue to have esports conducted. That it, you know, it definitely appeals to that more, but you've got, you know, some of the downtown casinos were Fifth Street gaming and those guys that are very focused on it. That's where you're going to see more of those types of things. And they're always one of those that you can always go up to the book and say, hey, I've got X amount interest in this coming up. Do you guys have a line on this? And, you know, chances are if they don't, they probably know somebody that does. Do you think in a distant future it'll be called esports book rather than sports book? Probably not esports book. I don't think that per se, but I think I'd rather see it just be part of the average day sports plethora of things, you know, no different than, and I say this knowing, you know, several sides of this, you know, there's a reason why colleges have esports programs and those, you know, athletes go through the same things if they have nutritionists, then they have, you know, psychologists and they train just like anybody else would, you know, I always go back to, and this is one thing back when I was involved with sports and worked for a collegiate program. I remember one of our guys was working on NASCAR and he was a team psychologist. And I said, what are a bunch of guys that turned left for a living ever need a team psychologist or anything else, because you just get this persona while they do is drive like you and I drive down the street, which obviously isn't, they're driving a heck of a lot faster, but those are athletes, no different than what you're seeing in esports today of those are, you know, people that are just as physically fit and doing things to make sure they're doing all the right things which train no different than, you know, an NFL or NBA player. So is, are other places in the world adopting esports betting? You know, it's one of those that I think you're seeing things happen around the world very much, you know, as things progress. So is esports very popular? Yes. Are there jurisdictions where I think you'd see a ton of esports wagering but they don't have it yet? Yes. Japan is the first one to come to mind off of that. They have huge esports contests. You know, Japan is definitely known as one of the places where esports does well. And I know they even tried to do stuff with the Olympics to make that come into play when they hosted those back, you know, earlier this year or earlier last year. And it's one of those that I think Japan over time will become one of those. I do know there have been conversations about making sports betting much more legalized and proliferant in that culture. A culture that, you know, is not unique to gaming because they've had Pachinko for forever and ever. They have horse racing, they have boat racing. It's just a matter of legalizing esports to do that in a meaningful way and have those in a similar format that you would have with the Japan Racing Association as you do with horse racing. What about countries like China, South Korea, other South Asian? Oh, absolutely. Well, and I think, you know, the one asterisk, if you want to put to that, is obviously China. And I say that knowing China's view on gaming continues to evolve. While when you say China in gaming, most people immediately think of Macau and what it has as the largest, you know, gaming jurisdiction in the world, or at least at one point it was pre-pandemic. Obviously it has struggled over the last two years, but within that last two years also, you know, the party within China has continually, I'll say put in check how gaming has transpired, not just from an online sense of making sure their people aren't gambling offshore on online sites, but also making sure they track that movement of money so that they know how much people are gambling. You know, within the Chinese culture, it's a little bit unique because, you know, if you think back to a long time, Mahjong and other games have been, you know, very much commonplace over those types of things, which, you know, it's no different than the Catholics put play and bingo in the churches in the basement, you know, that they're sort of that mixed match of what's good and what's necessarily not so good from a viewpoint. But, you know, they've definitely put that in check over the last couple of years. So while, you know, eSports has been something that's popular over there, they've tried to curb that as well, and that also goes to the amount of play they've limited with people and when they can and can't gamble or can and can't play eSports just as much. So the Chinese market, I put the asterisk by, but other places like South Korea, Southeast Asia, all of those various places are all great eSports hubs because it's definitely ingrained in that demographic that hasn't interested it. And what about Malta? I wonder if they have eSports betting. You know, I don't remember what all is on, what all the books over in Malta have, but obviously Malta is one of the larger online gaming jurisdictions out there. It definitely has shown its way as a leading gaming jurisdiction, no different than, you know, other online places such as the UK, Alderney, stuff that we've had here in the States with New Jersey and others to be able to do that. And I think it's definitely one that they're gonna continue to look at ways to incorporate those things and obviously I think there's a good niche to get those people involved in eSports on those betting boards. But the biggest thing that I think not only books are concerned with, but regulators are concerned with is making sure that, you know, they can display fair and accurate odds along the way as well as understand the sport. So they don't run into a situation where, you know, they take big losses along the way because they don't know what they don't know. And that said, that still happens today. I remember when the, you know, early on in the pandemic and I wanna say this might have been table tennis, but somebody, you know, better, you know, like say 10 bucks on a 10 team or a 10 match parlay and ended up winning 50,000 bucks off of one of the bucks. And I may be off there a little bit on the numbers, but it was an extraordinary amount, but it was because, hey, we're wagering on something we don't know. And we wanna make sure that we're doing it in a very prudent way. So we're not taking a bath, you know, for the book and the regulators don't think that there's anything improper going on as well. Sure, that makes sense. And Hawaii and Utah are famously known for not legalizing gambling. Do you think that will continue? I mean, never say never. I will say of those two states, I would be a lot more optimistic off of Hawaii than I am Utah. Although there was talk even this year about Utah potentially, you know, looking at sports wagering over everything. But, you know, I just read an article, I believe it was yesterday out of one of the Hawaii publications of, you know, Hawaii already feels the effects of gaming because there's gaming going on there. It's going on illegally, you know, Las Vegas has always referred to as the ninth island anyway because the amount of Hawaiians that come over here. And so you definitely already have a culture that is used to gaming. And I, you know, it's one of those things that I always would look at and I wish legislators and I know there's been, you know, a host of proposals over the course of time and, you know, it inches forward a little bit more year after year, at least just study it and study it, not just from the standpoint of, hey, what could this generate revenue for us? But one, understand what you have in a base right now for potential effects off of gaming. What illegal gaming is going on there? And then look at what avenues you may or may not go down, whether that be an integrated resort, whether that be sports betting, that obviously I think should probably include eSports as part of that, you know, offering as well, lottery, other things, just to say, hey, here's what we're doing and here's what we're looking at, you know, Alaska just went through that last year, just to see, you know, hey, here's what's out there and here's what actually works and here's what we may look at. And it's one of those things that, you know, we'll see what legislatures and executive branch and governors decide to do going forward but it's having that baseline study at least to know, hey, here's what we might do and here's how we might do it in a very meaningful way. And, you know, I can't recommend enough of people looking at stuff and saying, you know, what's the best way to do it and doing the research behind the scenes, whether that be, you know, with an integrated resort or sports betting and eSports and everything else in between because then it helps pave the path going forward in a much more meaningful way. And what's interesting is Hawaii and Utah have something in common, the connection with Nevada because people in Hawaii, they, you know, there's many people who go to Vegas to gamble four times a year. And then with Utah, people drive over to Wendover or they go from, you know, they go to Vegas because it's so close in proximity. So the question I have and my mind is, why is it that the States, Utah and Hawaii, I mean, excuse me, yeah, Utah and Hawaii that they don't take advantage of the revenue that they could gain and they let their citizens spend it all in Vegas? Well, as somebody that lives in Vegas, we appreciate their hospitality and we appreciate people continuing to come to our destination. With that said, you're absolutely right. And while, you know, those, while we have benefited from our neighboring states and those, I'll put Hawaii as our neighboring state even though there's half an ocean that separates us because of the amount of Hawaiians that come here, there is a distinct revenue opportunity to be able to take advantage of that. That said, the distinct revenue opportunity also isn't just what you're losing that comes to Nevada because if you can go back to when New Jersey legalized it was, oh, Vegas is gonna die. This is never gonna last, whatever else. Vegas has had 10 straight months of record revenue over the course of time. Obviously we'll see what comes in when we get February numbers and that sort of stuff later on this month. But, you know, Vegas still is Vegas and Nevada is still Nevada and doing that. The challenge is, and this is where the argument plays in a lot is you have gaming that's going on in Hawaii today. You have gaming that's going on in Utah today. It's just happening illegally. It's not regulated. There are no consumer protections. And, you know, it's one of those that from an entertainment perspective, most people see gaming as very mainstream, something that happens in their everyday lives. I mean, you can't turn on Sports Center or Fox Sports or any sort of contest and not see the odds somewhere in there along the ticker or they're bringing it up in the conversation to say, hey, so-and-so is favored by five, whatever else. So it's part of our culture. And arguably, their citizens would be safer if they won, you know, would regulate it and two, then put protections in place and make sure there's, you know, responsible gaming programs and awareness programs and for those that may need treatment, programs in place so people can treat and get recovered should they have a problem with a small percentage that does. And speaking of protection and regulation, eSports is known for its youth because it is something that is generally played by young people and there's a lot of underage people. How is eSports wagering? How do you protect the youth from getting involved in that? Well, and that's one of the conundrums that happens and it brings it up in every legislative session that I've been with as it relates to sports spending and eSports is no different is, you know, people don't want to bet on youth people along the way. And there is a little bit of gray off of that. And I say that from, let's go back to the Olympics and say, hey, there's some 16 year old phenom that is a figure skater or a swimmer or something like that that is on a world scene. And it's like, are you really not going to allow somebody that's competing against the best of the best in an international sense, not allow a way to run a game? And that said, no one wants to go take a bet on the middle school, eSports teams, you know, tournament that they have between X, you know, middle school and Y middle school along the way. So you have to figure out what that is. But, you know, to your point, and this comes to a consumer protections point of view, you know, education off of awareness when addiction comes into play, how you can treat those types of things, understanding warning signs. Those are all things out of the gate that people need to be aware of and understand. And that education, you know, needs to start as those people are getting into that. Because the other thing is, you know, you don't want to end up with, you know, a high school game where you have match fixing and those types of things that can damage the sport and arguably hurt the individual that gets and tied up and involved in those types of things. And obviously it can happen at every level. You know, we're talking about it with regard to youth, but, you know, youth are one of those things we need to make sure we protect appropriately and have the safeguards in place. But obviously, you know, as they get on that upper spectrum and become of age, there's a little bit of gray area where you can and can't wager. You know, the argument I always say, and you see this in every jurisdiction is, okay, we're not gonna, they use 18 years old as the benchmark. And I said, well, what happens if the starting quarterback for Alabama in his first three games is still 17 years old? He's playing an NCAA sport. It's an NCAA sanctioned event. He's at the highest level playing at one of the premier programs in the country, if not the premier program in the country. Are you gonna take those five games off the book just because one player out of, you know, the 22 that are on the field between, you know, any snap of the ball is under 18. So that's why you run into some gray area on that. And that's why it more has to go to what the sport is and the governing body. And one of the arguments made by Hawaii State Legislature is that gambling could lead to corruption and other illegal activities. What do you say to that? You know, one, if you don't have regulation in place to deal with it, it only breeds more corruption in doing that. That's why if you regulate it and have the rules in place to say, hey, here's what it is, you have no way to protect anybody out there today. You know, if you go have somebody run in a poker game out of their basement in somewhere in Hawaii, whether it be Honolulu or anywhere else, you know, somebody can be taken to the cleaners and there's no way for anybody to protect that. You bring that out in the legal market. You bring it forward where you have strict regulation. You can check for money laundering. You can check all those things. That's where you end the corruption cycle off of that. That's where you bring things into the legal sphere to say, hey, we can put consumer protections in. We can put financial protections in and we can make sure this is done in a fair and equitable way as opposed to, hey, it's running all behind, you know, backdoor behind the scenes in a back room. Sure, so Brendan, I'll give you the last word. This has been an excellent conversation. I've learned a lot. Tell us how to get in touch with your company and you. Well, first and foremost, thank you for the opportunity to be here. I've always enjoyed this program and look forward to hopefully participating again. You know, obviously the easiest way to get ahold of me is either email or hop on GMA's website to be able to do that. My email, as you can see on the screen is the website address, but then my email is bdb at globalmarketadvisors.com. Fantastic. Thank you, Brendan. Thank you. Appreciate your time today. All right, thank you to our viewers for joining us today. Make sure to tune in next week. My guest will be Dr. Gregory Gettinger, the founder of VR Motion Learning. He will be joining us from Austria to talk about virtual reality tennis. See you then. Thank you so much for watching Think Tech Hawaii. If you like what we do, please like us and click the subscribe button on YouTube and the follow button on Vimeo. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and LinkedIn and donate to us at thinktechhawaii.com. Mahalo.