 There we go now we're live after just after jelly got done singing and what's up everybody hello everyone and welcome back to for the means that weekly show where we talk about the various paragon related projects and ethereal this week we'll be talking about cure of our huntress whatever you want to call her being added in the predecessor talk about over prime seem to have fixed that are a lot of their optimization problems and their d-sync issues which was the main thing and then a theory is going to be talking a little or ethereal jelly is going to be talking a little bit about the mocap suit for ethereal but um yeah i'm your host the magus joining me as always and he wasn't here well not as always wasn't here last week was he oh my bad it was my birthday and i was in vegas yeah good birthday it's jelly knees what's up jelly not much man i'm excited to be here i'm excited to talk about kira and all the other good stuff um but yeah and we got the viking jedi back with us welcome back viking welcome welcome welcome how are you i'm doing super good yeah no thank you for for having me back um what's up chat hello jelly thank you thank you yeah i'm excited um you know got a little preview test of some of the pred content i'm excited to talk about that for sure um just like with over prime getting to finally see some some ip coming from the other studio in competition here it's really really exciting i can't wait to see what happens on on the actual you know uh map once people are playing it and on a bigger scale than just the testers behind the scenes it'll be interesting i think is that at least i'm excited okay well right let's let's move right into it let's talk about um let's talk about kira um let me switch over the thing so jedi and i actually got a chance to play her already you've probably seen my videos and um jedi have you done any videos with her you just you just played her got a good impression over yeah i mean i just uh was was lucky enough to be able to jump in and play just to be able to talk about her this week with you guys um also we're getting feedback that i'm quiet jelly's quiet and goose you're a little loud as far as stream volume so i don't know if you want to play with all right yeah turn jelly up i'll turn you up here in a second i mean nobody really cares about my opinion on this stuff right console's bad uh no i'm just kidding um no i yeah so i did get to touch on her i think uh she's got to really oh yeah uh i think she's got a really fun high skill expressive kit and uh i think that in the right hands of some some players um she's gonna be really interesting i do not think that she's going to be new player friendly in my opinion i think that uh the only thing that's new player friendly on her kit that i can figure out is her right click basically being hit scan so you don't have to worry about like skill shots other than just point and click outside of that i think everything else managing her passive uh when to use your q and especially her e her e is going to be to me the most skill expressive aspect of her whole kit and um yeah it's it's really really interesting she's super fun to play though um you know when i played against just bots but i was getting like after i got like i think two items it was just pentakill under pentakill under pentakill it was ultimate is just so easy once uh you know there's there's nobody you can really cc her in a bots game that's i think they're going to be her biggest weakness and she's very susceptible to cc um but i think that people will just have to play around the dashes right so if you go the way that i was playing where you get the um oh my gosh though the dash crest like i'm blanking on the name of it but you pacifier yeah there you go so it has a reset if you get a kill i think that's going to be probably the strongest item on her there's probably other ones you can probably play around with um and i would say going attack speeds that way you're getting your passives off um as quickly as possible is probably the next thing that i would go but i think she benefits well from crit as well and you know she's very interesting that's the best i could give you that she's very interesting yeah jelly you haven't had a chance to play her but where your impressions of her from seeing all the different videos that craters have been putting out and seeing the videos that uh made of themselves have been putting out for kira yeah i mean i've been watching all the videos except yours mangoos because i don't like you yeah okay that's um completely understandable no uh but i think i think she's going to be very interesting i think we talked about before in terms of zina and over prime about zina being a relatively safe character to be made as a first out the gate original character i think kira falls into that camp a little bit in a lot of ways um i don't think she's overly flashy i don't she's not right there's nothing that like sets a new bar for anything else when i look at kira aside from that i think she looks really cool i think it's going to be exciting to have her in the game i mean i'm very curious to see where she fits in all of this she could i could see her very easily being like cream of the crop right just best of the best you have kira you win right no problem but i could also see her maybe potentially falling off in certain match ups like we were talking before the show mangoos you said that you think drongo is going to be a good counter to her i could totally see that being the case you silence her she has nowhere to go her safety element is completely gone right and now she's going to really struggle so i'm curious to see where all that kind of falls and i could definitely see a pull a place for her potentially in the off lane because of that because she has that extra safety that some of these other carries don't yep i think if any adc is going to be successful in the off lane and predecessor it will be kira however i don't think she's going to i think she'll i mean like i think she'll be she'll noob stomp um solo lane but if she goes against any kind of experience crunch grox even severog she'll just get completely demolished because oh she has a dash yeah you know what grox has a pull and a dash crunch can charge into you and then charge again you know shimmy has two dashes like most of your your normal off lane picks i think we'll uh we'll destroy kira if they if they're good um i think one thing that people are getting wrong is they seem to think that her dash is completely gives you iframes it does not um you can take damage while in your dash you can't iframe like a gadget mind you can't iframe tower shot stuff like that um i'm seeing a lot just in general people i think are severely over estimating how powerful she is um like you gotta understand like even um like in the different content creator games like i played bellica mid lane i would normally go over and gank the duo lane i didn't gank the duo lane purposefully what i played bellica because i wanted the enemy kira player to be able to get good footage for their content so i didn't just you know shut them down with bellica however bellica shuts kira the fuck down because kira likes to use mana she's out of all of the adc she's the one that's going to be the most mana hungry i think because of constantly spamming her right click mercy which i think is going to be her her main damage source and just um and the knockup into the bomb into the into the uh into her bellica ultimate she's not going to have time to dash during all of that she's just going to die um and just in general you have to be so close to hit her ultimate um a lot of people are misunderstanding and i'm part of this i i put out in my video that her ultimate applies on hit effects it does not apply on hit effects just lifesteal and crit so correct because if you really think about it there are items in predecessor that deal percent health damage and her like her her ultimate hits like 20 times a second that would just immediately kill everyone in her vicinity if it applied on hit effects like that that's where if we had old mega causum still you put mega causum on kira just for the meme and just have it tick tick tick tick tick tick tick tick tick oh it'd be so good i would love that is ever are they still quiet i thought i had this um worked out it's i goers the only one who said it recently i i don't know yeah maybe started over at the beginning yeah he might be behind in uh but yeah i do think too the um her right click is going to be i think her mainstay um it has like a reduced uh cooldown when you hit it um on i think on champions it also is a farther it's not an auto attack range it's at farther than auto attack um i don't know the exact amount of units but it feels like maybe like i don't know like two gruxes past your auto attack range you know uh so it's definitely like snipable like you can get a little bit farther out with it um and i do think that that would afford her a little bit of safety in the off lane because you don't necessarily have to be up really close in auto attack range you could theoretically right click kill minions um and you know you save your your dash anybody who plays her off lane i think is going to be it's going to have to be a fully skill like my skill versus your skill is so much higher that you even like you know because i think if she goes up against a really good grux like you guys were mentioning or a really good shinbi she's gonna struggle i don't think that she has enough mobility to be able to outplay them um especially early and her damage isn't strong enough early to be able to realistically take them on i think people still play her i definitely think she's going to be seen in off lane uh quite a bit but uh i think only really the extremely skill expressive people will be able to make her work in off lane um using her dashes and multiple dashes effectively especially once you i mean you guys know my main complaint when playing solo lane is that it's solo until it's not and uh if you are a really good solo laner and you get her dash out and then you call for her for jungle you know it's uh it's probably gg at that point what is up with the what is up with the fucking audio tonight i've had a rough day guys i've had a very rough day uh uh but um that's the thing too is she's very skill expressive so i think at higher levels she's going to do really really well at lower levels people are going to try and use her dash at the wrong time to get the damage multiplier out of it and then die um they're going to jump into an enemy team's face and rick is just going to immediately slap her in silencer and cancel her ultimate drongo is going to cancel her ultimate people compare her ultimate to um reaper from overprime or uh overwatch yeah my bad too many overs but i think it does play like that if reaper runs at you in overwatch everybody knows what's going to happen and he gets shut down he has the flank come in and take people by surprise with his ultimate that's the same thing you kind of got to do with uh with kira i agree with that a hundred percent like i do think that she will be really really valuable and this is why i think she'll be pushed again more towards being in a carry position especially in organized play in team fights around the neutrals her ultimate is going to be something that everybody's going to be paying attention to and playing around so that gives her a lot of utilization in those moments um i think in lane it'll be a lot more case by case like you know uh you might just use it just to try and chunk out or to to cause a disengage or to appeal or whatever for your support or something along those lines i don't think you're going to use it for kill pressure in lane but i definitely think that it has the highlight potential of crazy you know quadra kills you know or whatever or again just creating space like hey she's going off we got to get out of here but if you combo wombo combo with some of the other like you know uh mage type uh aoe's you might fall and just decimate the whole team but it's good again it's going to be based on skill knowing when to just go in with it not you have to be careful about how you use her buttons that's all i can say uh i mean press right click all day long right click all it's it's a freebie it's literally like hit scan it's so it's so good um but i think knowing what your stack on your passives and then when to use your q to get the slow um all of that stuff is going to be really interesting oh that actually reminds me my biggest complaint is not knowing how many stacks you have on it because it's based off of like a flame appearance and it's really hard unless you just see the full on like super saiyan blue flame on the your target you don't know if you have like how close of you are to having each stack especially on multiple people or multiple minions or whatever so i kind of wish there was a an easier way to know how many stacks you have uh but outside of that i think that everything else is probably fine but possibly pips over the target's head or something i don't see i don't know how they would do that because it you can stack it on multiple opponents at once so it would be very hard to create a ui element that isn't just cluttering and confusing there's an amount that i would say that they need to double down on the way they implemented shimby's ult and that it's target with the highest and then give you a counter right that they're gonna do that kind of ability you got to keep it consistent right the keep the interactions as similar as possible between characters um but overall i think her ability she's gonna be like a sparrow right it's a sparrow having her ultimate walking into a fang tooth fight is terrifying because she's gonna hit every single person in there with her full damage and same thing with kira if kira jumps into a fang tooth fight for primal fang tooth especially right go in there ult and you're gonna be doing a lot more than you're going to be doing if you're in the wide open area of a lane trying to press your ult and get as many people as possible yeah i i think doing a solo ult is going to be troll like you really need another ultimate preferably like i don't know maybe like a giddy anult to really like group people up or something like that before she can use her ultimate uh again unless you're just using it to to peel or to create space or something like that in lane i i really would be very surprised after you know the first few weeks she's probably gonna get some some crazy ultimates often people are gonna be like this champion's broken i think long term as people get more familiar with what you know her ranges and how much damage she can do and like the angles at which she can come um especially in the jungle where things are a lot more pinched you know what i mean it's not if you're marking her consistently and higher level players are going to get good at that very quickly they're gonna figure it out like okay she's marked over here just send said tank over there to stop her from basically being able to come in whenever she wants to with an ultimate it's not like she has a giddy an e that can you know really use to be set up like there's none of that she's going to be i think reliant on her team to set her up for her big ultimate um otherwise i think it's going to be used for peel and maybe to get her passive on multiple people and then land a big big boy queue or something like that yeah it's really good for wave clear and she has zero wave clear so there are times when you have enemies pushing into your tower with a massive wave and this will be able this will her ultimate will give you the ability to both clear that wave and get some damage on them which is nice is there a world and this is this is my crazy mind is there a world where she's an 80 carry jungler no no you don't think so no kind of she has no fucking wave clear yeah i'm i was just i was just curious because like you know she has really i think she would have really good gank assist um being able to get in use your ultimate and then using your queue for slows and all that stuff i don't know it was just a just a thought i was just throwing it out there yeah yeah you keep those thoughts to yourself right yeah um something i've seen in chat something i've seen people discuss in quite a bit is uh true silver bracelet on her to make her immune during her ultimate and give her a shield i personally think it's going to be that that'll be a mistake um if you think of all the times that an enemy adc has had an item up on you and therefore blows you up before you can do anything to them taking true silver bracelet is letting the enemy adc get an item up on you yep if you're popping awesome ultimates the true silver will be great but like we all said it's going to be very difficult for her to actually get these massive ultimates that that people are thinking about true silver will help with that if if it comes to it but uh i think true silver is just a bad build on her if you're building true silver over a lifesteal item then you're not using her ultimate correctly to begin yeah yeah because the fact that it use it can benefit from lifesteal as her ultimate means that you that's something you should be specking into if you're trying to get maximum ult potential that that'll keep you alive rather than true silver waiting for true silver true silver to keep you alive but doing no damage in the meantime medkit brings up something i didn't know this because i thought with her ultimate she was only able to use her e but he's saying that liberator in the middle of her ult um can take you out of the cc or purge the cc before it happens i guess right is that how it works you have to press it before you get cc right probably press it before you ultimate i didn't know that you could do that i thought that everything else i know you can't use the uh the dash from the i'm blanking on the name of it again but you can't use the dash while in ultimate the only dash you can use is her e and then after you are your ultimate's done oh actually that speaking to him and not being done that brings up another one uh that mangius pointed out to me which is you cannot cancel her ultimate early yes currently and i think that's a huge fucking problem huge problem hey thanks for the buck pops dot appreciate it pop it's hot um so yeah yeah that's something i brought up to the team while i was playing her um i won't name names but a few of them agreed with me so that that might be in the works that she'll be able to cancel her ultimate or something yeah because right now once you're locked in you're locked in yeah i think it's smart it just there's no point in having it if like you know i don't know all the other major ultimates like that it can be canceled early so i think it just would be for fidelity's sake but could be also like a punish you know you use the ultimate you're just kind of f because you do get 40 slow and all that fun stuff but yeah anyway very very cool champion yeah tax speed i think is the way to go though especially for ad carry think so yeah because you want your her passive is sneaky strong like especially with like the q being like i personally think that you there's a build where you max q first not right click um i think it will be matchup dependent be and you can get multiple spams off on that q especially with the slow and if you have if you're playing carry this is not for off lane because i think off lane is gonna be very unique but in with uh a good support being able to continuously get those slows off and and again that passive will take up really really quick if you're going at tax speed um it's it's very very fast and i i don't know i think her passive is really really strong see the way i look at it you take six shots to get a fully stacked passive up i mean it does it does still deal damage increasing damage every time you hit it it's not like you have to have six stacks but six x is when it starts dealing true damage and all that mm-hmm think of the last time you were able to shoot somebody six times in a row in predecessor as an adc without somebody fucking you up or or without them just walking away or without them dying it doesn't happen i think that that's where to me it's it's not even about just like like a single target focus it's more about being able to like because let's say so if you're in lane right being able to bounce your autos if you're getting a fast enough attack speed i think and this is how i look at it you're being able to bounce your autos not only on minions but also on enemies and you're just tink tink tink tink like as soon as you're like and then in team fights same thing you know just continuously getting your cues and right clicks off on multiple people at a time continuously creating more slows because you don't need a full stack to be able to get that that slow off you just need one on each person and so that's right a lot of slowing on a lot of people uh i think it can slowly but surely chunk people out you can use it as a poking tool um because you're right it doesn't stack up until six but you don't need the full stacks you just need to be continuously chunking and if you get engaged upon or they're trying to play aggressively into you i feel like you win that more times than not if you're hitting your autos and it sneakily gets to being more damaged than they're expecting and you get that big cue and now you're able to full um true damage of shots at six that ding ding ding ding i just think you win um and using your e efficiently again it's all about like that's why i think she's gonna be very skill expressive like it's all about using all of your abilities to be able to efficiently take out your targets um and i think she will be the strongest at being able to do that um the only other yeah i think that she probably will be the strongest like 1v1 in a skill expression way not necessarily just pure damage way but in a skill expression way i think she's gonna be the strongest 1v1 champion yeah i think she's good she carry roll yeah she will definitely be able to 1v1 the other carries maybe not drongo that's like the only exception but i think she'll be a lot like yin and that she just straight up cancels out other adcs yeah yeah i think i think drongo is gonna be can he land gag grenade yes he wins if no he still loses i mean that's kind of his matchup in general is if you don't yeah what are you doing right uh but the thing that i really wanted from her kit that i that wasn't in there that i said that i was like you know like that that to me makes the most sense of something you could do if she turns out to be underpowered which i don't think she will be but if she turns out to be underpowered if her q kills a target it resets that she because she's building up the stacks on it right it's got a long cooldown otherwise make it 20 seconds whatever right and then but if you use it as an execute which is what it wants to be then you get a you get the benefit of it resetting or refunding part of the cooldown that's a good thing for me of like her right click refunding half the cooldown if it's used on the hero but her q is the one that builds up on heroes that's like that was the weird like i it feel it felt disjointed and granted i haven't played her yet so i that's very limited in terms of my feeling having feel of her but still i think her kid feeds into each everything feeds into each other really well except for the right click i think if the right click i think if the right click works i mean it does feed in somewhat it applies the one head it applies a stack of her passive but i think if the right click were to reduce all cooldowns by a small percentage it would be even better and it would be it would add into it and it would reduce your queues a little bit i think resetting a q and kill would be chaos because then if you get like a three man ultimate off you hit q kill one you hit q kill the other hit q again and you kill the third which would make for a cool highlight play but i don't know about it i don't know about how fair that is um i'll take the forehead i think um your the right click has auto uh cancels uh who was it zygor i think was it or maybe it was uh jalei pointed it out oh was it medkit okay thank you yeah so her auto right right click auto that you get three stacks with that um so you can really i think use your i thought that's actually was the biggest thing of everything was that all of her abilities when used again in a one-to-one type environment but it would have opportunity to create really interesting like you know uh cohesion together um again using your q at the right time you know you don't always need to be at full stacks for everything it's like you know it's the niches and that's why i'm really excited to see her in the hands of people who are way better at the game than i'm going to be because i can see it right now and i'm not that great i'm imagining the guys who are like you know die hard you know skill expressive champions especially in the carry roll are going to have a field day that she's going to feel like samira when shit samira first came in where like people like oh she's so broken yeah in the hands of somebody who knows what the fuck she's doing you know if you're if you're just a brand new i'm picking it up for the first time you're gonna go in there and you're gonna end because you think you have your ultimate up and you can just go in it's not gonna be like that i think this is going to be way more about case case by case niche situations um i i'm almost even tempted to say i wouldn't even put her in a blind pickable category i don't know if you want to blind pick her all the time i think you have to be careful i know in the first few weeks everybody's going to try and play her so it doesn't this is this is on that but i mean like as time goes on i think she's going to be more niche uh maybe like a drongo maybe like you know what i mean where you're be very strong but in niche situations not in every situation you know damn i think i should point out right now to that um her right click it doesn't auto cancel is just it doesn't interrupt her autos like your right click just it pops off like most abilities you're like you're if you cast the ability it interrupts your your auto chain her right click she can just keep firing at the same pace with her left click and then pat and pat so it seems like an auto cancel but it isn't actually an auto cancel it amounts to the same goddamn thing really yeah i feel you i think that that's that's going to be probably her main source of damage i believe is her right click um to counter that just stand in your minions especially if she's on the downhill and you're on the uphill because she cannot attack through minions like that that's her that's one of her main weaknesses is she has no wave clear like drongo can throw that boomerang through um murdoch and buckshot a wave uh sparrow has her piercing arrow uh she got nothing she ain't got nothing except for her ultimate to clear waves mm-hmm so her q it only targets one person regardless of how many people have stacks on them no no it hits everybody it does in the scenario you were talking about i'm saying like if they're all at different health levels it's going to kill like when you hit q it hits everybody it kills one person then you hit q again it hits both of those it kills one of them yeah and it doesn't but it doesn't consume stacks when you it does not consume stacks though okay if it consumes stacks then maybe that would be something to be kind of neat but yeah yeah and i don't think we can step away from without um addressing that she a lot of people have brought this up i've been saying it forever she's a hell of a lot like vala in hears of the storm a weird number of similarities with a number of characters like yeah her arts is derivative like it's it's i wasn't sure we were gonna talk about it yeah because i i mean i don't know like where you get into the category of being able because it's like you know like does does blizzard have every say on what a you know like i don't know because it you know it's like you can't like blizzard can't sue us for using a dwarf character right just because they have dwarfs i don't know because you know they're not calling her a demon hunter per se they're not they're her name is got a huntress in it i don't know it's very close i'm hoping the guys have consulted the right legal because i'm not one of them but it does seem a little on the on the nose yeah it's pretty close like vala has the um target immune dash that that empowers her her left click um she's got the the spin to win ultimate just like vala or vala and kira both have the spin to win ultimate and then the other thing that was surprised me because i knew about both of those i looked at her passive it's like um for every basic attack you hit you get a stack of vengeance which increases your uh damage by two percent that's exactly vala's passive when you land a basic attack you get a stack of vengeance that increases your damage by two percent i'm like whoa okay now yeah but again there's not much you could do original anymore there is such a thing as parallel thought i'm not saying that they ripped off vala i'm just saying that people are going to say that that's that's definitely going to be in my honest hero overview of her like kind of a tongue-in-cheek jab adam but uh yeah she's pretty pretty close i mean just her aesthetic looks i mean other than her using one crossbow versus two like i don't do everything about it is uh that's the biggest thing it's like fine rip off a kit all the games do it all the mobas do each other rip off a kit fine but make the thematic something different don't make her a vampire hunter instead of a demon hunter okay like come on like do something that's the part that gets me the most well i think they did they did a great job with our kit the way it flows together um yes she's very fun yeah i i i she's up there for with with shimby for me and countess right now as far as fun part of that is i think it just it's fun to have mobility in a game like this i i like that i i think that's going to be really interesting to see how more of this mobility is coming into the game and what it's going to do for things um yeah it's it's really it's going to be really exciting i'm like i can't wait to see the highlight reels i should say because there's gonna be she's gonna be a highlight real champion which is always fun i think for everybody um and i think she's made for that like she will look cool like you can have a giddy and get off like a really badass ultimate and it get like a quadra or even a pentakill but it doesn't doesn't quite look as flashy whereas for her she's blazing around in a 360 of you know arrows i guess not bullets arrows arrows and bullets oh okay yeah why not uh she just she's got that that wow factor which i think is going to be really really exciting for the game um yeah her animations are very very smooth um yeah they they pay attention to the little details like whenever you shoot into a wall it leaves a little purple crossbow bolt in the wall or in the or in the ground uh she has her own back animation she has her own voice actress she has voice lines um i think she looks animation wise better than any of the paragon heroes that they have in right now um maybe not like some of the later ones like revenant encounters but god damn she she looks good she has she has good idle animations and everything uh her skin that they're going to be releasing for her also looks pretty neat it's uh it's it's mostly a coloration change but i think it looks interesting enough that people are going to be okay buying it um it's she's a very cool champion i'm really excited i'm proud of the guys for putting together finally ip that's well ip that's their own uh but it's it's we got just as excited or at least i did um i mean i know you guys are like way old school paragon heads and i mean i know for me seeing something that's brand new in the idea of quote unquote paragon is really really interesting i can't wait to see how the mostly paragon fan base reacts to her whether like the purists are going to be upset or if they're just going to be stoked to have somebody new to play um because they seem to get upset whenever something gets reworked from old paragon so i don't know we'll see how that goes but i think she looks amazing i can't wait to see again like all the highlights and stuff like that and um i hope i get to play her in offline i hope she actually is viable and offline i don't think she will be i think people will play her but i'll try her but i think it's going to be a bit of a troll if you do to be honest i just with no bushes no again awarding is still really bad uh i think she's going to struggle in in matchups where the bruisers are able to to gap close on her and and punish her cc yeah i think that's what you're talking about i think there will be some people that are pissed that an ip hero is coming out before like their favorite hero uh you're always going to have that just fucking be patient like let them do their thing they need to prove that they can do ip i'm i'm happy that they are but i'm just waiting to see like i've already started doing her honest hero overview like i already started typing up different things that i thought was funny here's the first line introducing vella i mean kira and thank god because i'm tired of repeating the same shit i said about the same heroes six fucking years ago really yeah good call it'll be nice it'll be nice so i love that it's ip it's identical property exactly uh i know we're ready to probably move on but i do think she does have some opportunity in different kinds of builds too like oh god yeah i'm saying attack speed but i do think that there's there's stuff that people haven't even discovered yet there might be like bruiser builds that she can go you know full lifesteal type builds i don't know there's probably gonna be a lot of interesting ways to make her work in various situations but uh i think her kit because of just the mobility and her passive and q gives her the opportunity to do a lot of different things that a lot of other carries can't can't do in my opinion so it'll be really interesting to see i'm excited to see i should see yeah because of her passive and because her right click can apply can crit and apply on hit effects you can go attack speed on hit crit that's what they that's the direction that they want their 80s to be able to build in is just whatever direction they want to and i think her kit um exemplifies that 100% she was very fun to play guys yeah i think she's going to shake it up a little bit it's gonna be fun it's gonna be good times and predecessor for a little bit mm-hmm i don't know what other changes are coming with her i don't know if there are any other changes coming with her they said they're gonna release the patch notes tomorrow okay good cool yeah on the build that we got to do i didn't really pay attention to other than playing her anything else it felt like i didn't look at it to go through all the items i don't know if you did i i just really kind of focused on kira i didn't really mess it around with any other stuff so i don't have any insights that i can spoil for the patch notes yeah i'm not that much of a nerd stat guy so i will say um just a heads up to everybody the first time i played her i had a ton of bugs and um i just had to delete my local app data folder so if you do have bugs with her so if you can't like i was having a bug where i just wouldn't be able to basic attack after a little bit um here's an interesting one it was kind of funny if my richter silence somebody and i can see the word silence come up my screen would go black and white as if i had been silenced what yeah and then her ultimate sometimes gets stuck in um the audio gets stuck and her ultimate is about 986 decibels fucking loud you can't hear anything else in the world when you've got that bug but uh yeah just delete your local app data folder and that that should solve it that will reset everything you'll have to reset all your keybinds and all that stuff however it will fix the issue it will it fix it for me i should say so if it doesn't fix it for you come after man goose yeah if you do and if you didn't counter bugs it's it's it's a beta fucking just report them the best to the best of your ability yeah early access whatever okay we get it right but um just just report them and um be a little patient and they'll probably get fixed is it a bug or a feature i we don't know delay but it's both why not all right um you guys ready to move on to overprime or do you guys want to have anything else you would say for pred but have a lot of fun at pred and i will say that i think that's it i mean i played i played probably eight ai matches today one after the other it's dumb as shit but it needs to do so um i walk backwards randomly did we notice that rickard rickard especially rickard especially the rickard ai likes to chuck in backwards at you he's trying to suck you up into his butthole or something no but i'll give them kudos right like it's that i was playing with my girlfriend today several games that are oh she's never played any of these games never played with red moba anything like that they were the perfect stepping stone for her even if though i while i was playing i was sitting there demolishing them trying not to win the game too quickly like so yeah kudos i think that's it's just proving what we talked about with the ai being a good stepping stone before pvp in this game and a tutorial will be a better stepping stone but this is a good one for sure yeah um i think my final thought will be that pred has done and continue to do exactly what we thought that they would do uh when they first came out or at least what we had hoped is that they would get each patch and each iteration would be better than the last and we wouldn't really be getting any major steps backwards i can't think of a single patch that they put out that i've gotten a worse experience on and then the patch before it like i haven't gone like oh this patch sucks they should we should go back a revert where it's like you know i definitely played games and like the fault in fault for sure you know where i actually even overprime where i'm like ooh this patch is not it like this feels real bad we'll go into overprime now i think there's the patch that they're on now is way better than it was but like yeah i feel like pred has consistently gotten better at the things that they've improved have been good improvements um and and it continues to keep me excited for the way that they're progressing if this is the the way we're mounting up i'm really excited for the future pred i think it's gonna be a good game yeah well let's go ahead and move on to uh overprime so overprime they also had a patch um my optimization is way better than it was like that that last patch took a real dip in optimization and they finally fixed the desync issues that everybody's been having where you dash in your body you're actually at where you dashed but your screen still tells you that you're way behind and then all the sudden you get teleported to to the dash location they finally fixed that not only that but uh inherent dashes like grux's dash shimmy's dash all those dashes they have momentum now it used to be shimmy you would dash drop straight down now as you dash and then you kind of fall off uh same the same with giddy and giddy would do the same thing um so that stuff has been fixed and i think the game feels so much better they added a muriel skin which you can see me using the muriel skin right now it is a fucking sick ass skin it is so good but um muriel lover because this is the second new skin we've seen from muriel already yep both of them have been good too i think this one's way better than the last one but what you're saying something too because that other one was really good they're both great i think i mean i'm gonna buy this one too but really easy said rhino horn muriel i've been called a mohawk muriel oh boy yeah the incredible uh wukong his momentum still kind of sucks out of his queue it was otherwise the the momentum fixes do feel really really good so one thing with wukong and i'm sure you felt it too and i'm curious if you well i guess you can tell me is i've noticed that his animations while running and then doing another ability did improve well i don't know about the drop-off thing but like i saw a uh i was versing a wukong and he was doing some really interesting cool movements while up in the air and the other thing though is there's like a glitch i don't know if they fixed it yet but where the wukong can get enough of cool down reduction to where he can just be up in air non-stop or something like that like there's uh for once you didn't call it hacking and i think it was actually someone hacking i've seen it in multiple games though that's why i'm tripping so unless it's unless they're all that game in particular that guy was jumping up and then immediately jumping again and then immediately jumping again and running around the map yeah no no i that yeah we reported that guy i remember that i wasn't even yeah because you guys are always giving me shit about that i think yeah i usually do give you shit because you think everybody's hacking that time i'm pretty sure the guy was hacking it's not everyone anyone that's better than him seems to be a lot more shenanigans it takes place uh than in predecessor for example uh yeah 100 yes so like i said i don't know if it's a bug or a feature but it does seem like there has been because it didn't just happen in one game and i know i didn't play the same guy where they're able to stay up in air and kind of climb up a little bit longer and i don't know like i said if it's a bug if there's something that they're doing be able to utilize it multiple times or something but i hope they fix it that's all i that's all i wanted to bring i just want to fix that yeah bug if it is a bug or if it's a feature then to get rid of it because i think it's a little bit bullshit um so i mean we talked about the patch is good like everything's good about the patch however i don't know how they make their balancing decisions it seems like they are really just they're weeks behind they're it's behind it's not even just weeks behind but sometimes they will buff a perfectly balanced hero for like no god damn reason like they recently buff shinby they they they buffed her lifesteal on her e and they buffed the uh the width of her q shinby did not need a fucking buff like that she just needed her dash fix that that was all that was needed and it's like just the weirdest things it's kind of like uh they're playing ad libs and they're like like uh reduce uh go down on primary ability you know it is weird to look at their balance changes and it would be like okay like i'm not sure who was asking for this but okay okay i guess i think for me it's it's the way in which they change the balance of power like it does seem weird sometimes the how they view the the buff or nerf or or change whatever you want to call it because it does seem sometimes like i don't know that was the issue with said champions like that was not the thing that was preventing them from being good it's this item combo or the matchups or the way the game works like i don't know it feel it felt weird i know the one that i think it seems like a lot of people are confused about is um the iggy and scorch buffs uh changes whatever you want to call it i that wouldn't it was a little weird because i thought iggy was in a fairly good place i don't mind them trying to adjust the health on the q um but i would have much rather than instead of adjusting that make it to where it's on like a like the grenades like a cooldown where you can kind of put multiple out fairly quickly rather than relying on well it's going to stay healthy enough and then i just have to wait for my cooldown to be able to because it's still really really hard to get fucked up that noise uh well that i don't i don't i just would rather that than them trying to do anything else with it like they are turrets like yeah but i don't know that they needed to buff his late game turrets by any stretch of the imagination right the late game turrets are they will kill you or you kill you need to kill them right and that's the trade off uh but now that they're strong they're healthier late game as well than as well as early game that's wild wow again another thing that i was like early game i understand late game you could have just evened out the numbers to make it the same late game and just hire early and just made it that way instead it's just it's very strange it okay jellies is that new that light behind you that says jelly knees yeah that was his present that's that's awesome i love it that's super cool i'm going to take your name off the bottom now because you got your name up above your head i was spoiled i got a preview of it before even jelly did oh yeah oh yeah i got it i guess okay i want to one thing i want to say before i guess before done talking about the patch i don't know if we are but if we are i want to say this i enjoy playing over prime less than i enjoy playing pred now oh yeah has it reached a tipping point so the things that i like about over prime i still like which is the i think i love the uh i love the animations i i like the laning face it's pretty good and over prime i like the early game macro abilities of playing around you know the the mini prime and playing around uh the deer and not those kinds of things and making rotations matter when the portals open i would say after like 15 20 minutes i know the 20 minute mark especially but that 15 20 minute mark is when things really start to just get dog shit items some of them spike way too hard early and become a super oppressive and almost impossible to play against the types of champions there's it seems like to mean that there's too many of them that fill similar roles and they do things really really well and other champions struggle to keep up with them um so and when we talk about balance and stuff like that it just seems like i don't know like every champion for the most part is viable which i think is cool you know we're not getting i don't at least not in the games that i get i don't have the same 10 champions every single game like it does feel like hmm i feel like playing shouldn't be this game i feel like playing this game guy this game and they all are fairly viable but that doesn't necessarily make the game good i don't know what it is that they're missing other than the macro just i think maybe and maybe it's maybe it's the time to say it is that this one tower into a into a an inhib is not working or something because there's just no value in staying in lanes you just need to group as five and meet ball around because split pushing is stupid you can just the waves are so weak when they get up to the inhib you can just send one person you can send the fucking support to go and clear the wave at an inhib for the most part um so it just it's just not fun i i do think the team fighting is better in an overprime the visuals are better in overprime like you know some of the champion designs are super interesting and fun in overprime but that's not enough if the gameplay itself is just not good for me at least especially past that like laning phase once leading phase is over it just gets garbo yeah and my opinion both predecessor and overprime had an issue from from minute one predecessor had the fang tooth problem and fang tooth made that game not fun way more often than it was fun and great yep my team's down three fang teeth awesome we're out like just have fun i'm surrendering get out of the air and it made the game terrible predecessor fixed it and since honestly since that patch is when i've been having more and more fun with predecessor yep because that change made a world of difference for how the game is being played and i think it's a lot better for it overprime since day one so i mean honestly since cbt2 has had the problem of late game meaning nothing that i can't you can't get anything done team fights aren't doing anything because respawn timers are low enough can't really take orb prime like it's literally just they sit around and wait until one team messes up enough times that they lose yeah and it feels awful there's no there's not really priority in it there's nothing like that and they haven't fixed it they haven't addressed that and if anything they've moved kind of backwards it with the deer change of making it the same deer every single time because if it's a non-combat affecting deer then the game is worse overall whereas if but if it's like if it's the fire spirit then fine maybe it's it's it's slightly better but it's percentage points it's not just drastic improvements overall and i them not improving that is the thing that makes me not want to play the game more than not i think the the fix is really simple too make minions stronger against towers and make or prime stop dealing damage to everything just make it the standard prime buff that it is in pretty much every game where it buffs your team it doesn't fucking destroy inhibs because right now you don't push to win the game you take or prime to win the game damages the court like at least stop making it damage the damn core or something um that that's just you did that the game would stall entirely you would have no yes that's what i'm saying but make so make minions stronger against towers they have to make minions important yes nothing they haven't been important to cbt too exactly but that's what i mean it's like there's nothing there's nothing for anyone to do post 20 minutes except wait around for or prime that's a thrill ride that first 20 minutes but after that yeah that is the safest way to win is just wait around or prime for something to go down make sure your team is the one that wins the fight and end the game like that is just the best way to do things and it sucks exactly my thought is like i find myself especially as solo lane just waiting around like i'm just because i'm not going to go try and take experience and farm from the carry my my especially if i'm playing more of a tank like if i'm playing grucks off lane or something along those things i'm not going to try and get in there and steal gold and experience from my carry when i i'm going to need them um and the other thing that tilts me off my my rocker is jungles not understanding how important they are in over prime they are to me like i thought pred was was weird about how bad it is that you need to be good and jungle for in pred which it still is but over prime having a bad jungler versus a good jungler and i'm not even talking about like amazing jungler versus dog i'm talking about just like a jungler that goes to objectives versus a jungler that does not go to objectives it's literally like yeah yeah you can have like a jungler this is average jungler you can have a poor and a good and the guy who's here and here and then that's the margins it's like that much difference this guy is insanely much more valuable like it's just it's it's so crucial to have a jungler that understands their role and that you pick a a champion in the jungle that can actually benefit from that role like uh mangus and you and i we had that game where we had a really good uh a carry playing as a jungler and in early game he was fine he was getting kills he was uh spacing himself really well but as soon as it became objective time we didn't have any good objective control now also because he was split pushing or he was off doing other shit and in fact he was doing his own shit so much he sold his smite and unless i looked like right at the end of the game i was like oh our jungler doesn't have smite and we need to go like i will say to counter balance of that as a jungler if i ping mini prime and like you're not engaged in a fight in off lane or mid lane come fucking help like yeah like i see a lot of people complain about that if you have time in off lane drop a ward on the fucking mini prime to help your jungler out like there there's other that you could you could help the jungle out a little bit but yeah i mean that's kind of the problem with over prime is they're leaving stuff that people have been complaining about since day one in the game for a very long time and it's made the game incredibly stale uh prime example adc decker is still just an absolute fucking menace in the game i'm going to bring it up every week on this show because i hate it so much i hate how goddamn good it is i don't know why her basic attacks scale that fucking hard but having it she's an adc with a fucking huge stun and a slow in her kit think about it think about it and a huge escape yes that's all we but thanks for the uh thanks for renewing your membership much appreciated one of the biggest things for me that i i mean is evidence says of what i was talking about with uh predecessor before is i'm introducing my girlfriend of these games right she's heard me talk about them immensely she finally was willing to play the games and learn how to play the games fantastic and i chose to have her to pay for a copy of predecessor rather than play over prime yeah right and i've historically preferred over prime to predecessor same right that that to me is a big bad sign for over prime to be perfectly direct about it that i would rather introduce her to my my lesser favorites because my better favorite is just so stale it's ridiculous right and that sucks it does they'll be shaking things up a little bit with the introduction of maco and other original ip hero coming this month on the 28th i think what's going to shake things up even more is resetting ranked mode because that'll get more people into playing ranked and actually being able to lose points in ranked so that you don't have people just coasting on a negative win rate and still getting up to like fucking platinum and shit um i think calling you up for accidentally hitting your windows key while you were playing myriel during that tea fight oh yeah instead of uh instead of hitting all to uh to shield myself 100% did that and then yelled about it in game i wasn't going to say anything but since july pointed it out yeah yeah that that 100% happened um it happens definitely not the first time it's happened i need to change that binding but anyway yeah it's still my my go-to whenever i just want to queue up real quick and just play a game if i'm sitting down for a long gaming session i'll play pred if i just want to get a couple quick games in i'll play overprime yeah and i think if we're comparing overprime your predecessor to paragon the mistakes paragon made aside from the other reasons that paragon shut down right it made a lot of mistakes throughout its development and if we're looking if we're comparing these two games to paragon at the moment overprime is making a lot of those same mistakes they let things sit for too long and then they change them in a way that nobody asked for and it doesn't it's not making the game feel better it's not making their identity feel any better right like every it seems like almost every patch and the more stale the game becomes i sit there and go like i miss when i had three abilities at level one right like i i and not that i disliked the fact that they went down to one ability but now i'm going like i wish you just stuck with your original identity i had more fun with that prime i'm having right now and that sucks i prime dunk was more fun than this ah prime dunk i love prime dunk honestly it was it was more fun i mean so i mean chat this is the guys know this but a big reason why i wasn't part of the show these last two weeks was because i haven't been playing the games like i haven't been having fun um and i mean pred is better than it was but i i don't really for me pred i had to because i haven't paid attention enough to like the items and the matchups and all that stuff i struggle in those games especially in solo lane which is my favorite lane to play right now so it's like i just don't really have a lot to say on the games because it's just not that much fun to play and when over prime was my main game that i was playing and i stopped playing it over the last two three weeks or i'm like the guys will be like hey you guys want to play some over prime i'm like uh yeah i just want to play games like i it's not it's not even about like the over prime i just want to play games with my buds and i think that's that's the issue that especially with over prime that i'm having i'm just nothing's like really exciting to bring me in this last patch is a good patch like i was excited to get in there and try some of the stuff and see but again i found myself very quickly going like okay i've done it like i know now enough about the patch i know like you know the things that feel good and but the main thing that keeps me away is the overall macro at the 15 20 minute mark still sucks balls there's it just it's a stalemate at 20 minutes when you have two good teams you can have moments like me and nominguez when we played this week we definitely had like really cool good back and forth games where we're like oh that was actually a pretty good game but it was not because of the game itself it was just that the things happened to work out in the right order there's been way more games where it's like god that was fucking frustrating even if we won it's like god i'm so glad that's over and like rather than like oh we pulled off a really cool play and made something neat happen that got us the win in the game it was more like they fucked up we got a pick on somebody who did something stupid somebody dc'd whatever like it just or they just surrendered because that's still a big issue that everybody just surrendering that's both games that's both games well and that's i think what we've seen with over prime comparatively to predecessor two over primes character releases have been so lackluster that it's just meh right like i'm not even talking about wukong who was just completely and totally underpowered on release even crunch and iggy and scorch have not really done anything for the game they're following in a very similar pattern to what fault did you get a handful of games with the new character in that you see it all the time and then they slowly fade out of existence or you see them maybe a little more than fault ever did with new characters unless they're absolutely busted but eggy scorch crunch wukong i see them more like meme picks than i see them as consistent picks in anything else and i think that sucks whereas in predecessor i see count us all the time i see revenant all the time i see it shouldn't be all the time right like it's not they've actually created a character that fits in the new in the meta that can be adjusted and played in a rock paper scissors style against other characters whereas over prime has not captured that quite yet uh other than maybe with zina and i think that's more to do with zina being an original character than anything else it that's very disappointing too because i think kwong the redesigned kwong for over prime is the absolute best hero out of any of the paragon games including old school paragon that re like i was talking about how um kira in predecessor everything flows together like her kit really meshes well together not as good as kwong kwong's kit is fucking fantastic and i i expect that level of design and everything they do and we have not gotten that level of design everything they do fortunately they have said that they're going to be drawing back a little bit uh not focusing so much on introducing new shit and more focused on their gameplay and fixing things that are wrong now which we have seen in this patch with the uh fixed dashes and the fixed desync on uh on blinks and i oh good i'm fully expecting mako to drop this week oh 28 we're gonna get huh 28 yeah so it's a week from now okay i guess a week from tuesday rather how do you know it's the 28th did they say the hell did i just i don't know right did i just release some shit i didn't want what's supposed to anyway i don't know for some reason i was just assuming it was the 28th and yeah i didn't know it was the 28th but maybe i mean maybe it's just a really good guess that's what it is a really good guess i honestly have no idea why that number popped into my head so no but i but at least i expect to start seeing stuff and mako the week and mako is going to be another defining moment it's another original character it's another support character a new design which is nice right we're gonna see a different style of character design but uh whoo kill me like i i hope it does i hope honestly i'm less excited for mako and more excited for hoping that they fix the rest of the game if mako comes out the same patch fantastic if the rest of that doesn't come out and then like i see that mako come out be like oh cool great uh i didn't leak shit yeah it's been put out thank god y'all scared the shit out of me i was like did i like read that partner chat or some shit i do have the way that ranger has been kind of talking in the discord it gives me a like a glimpse of hope that there is something major coming the way that there he's describing gameplay changes but he's not giving anything definitive um i'm kind of hoping that that there we one i hope we get it before they go um into uh launch because it sounds like that they feel like they're gearing up for it that they're going to be going in out of early access soon i don't know again it's just for a bit it could be translation issues all that stuff but i think they need to do something major to make the game feel more substantial i'm not saying that they need to remove the action pack because that's my favorite thing about over prime is how yeah yeah i i can get into a game and feel like immediately that's like when i play league my favorite thing is to play arum when i just kind of want to get in and just get some shit done and get into team fights and get into something i don't want to play a whole like predecessor predecessor is way more of a you know i'm going to be farming for 15 minutes and then we're going to start grouping for this stuff and then start doing and it's a little bit more of a slower pace which is fine i like that over prime has that combat oriented style in imoba but it's missing so much of an identity in that 15 20 minute range that it makes it almost unplayable or at least frustrating to play so if they need some i don't know what the even the solution is at this point that still keeps what they've already built in intact i genuinely don't know uh i know we thrown out a couple ideas but oh you're muted i can't he's talking about how to give somebody a titty twister i think i want a patch where they crazy crake minions to 11 like yeah i'm saying minions are at a five right now just crank them to 11 i don't care if that patch is miserable from those minions i want minions to mean something and have them look at that and be like okay we'll we'll bring it back down to another yeah right like just crank the shit out of those minions because otherwise the game is going to feel like shit without more drastic changes oh boy robert jones that's a very hard question to answer but uh okay his answer is once these games are in a good place how often do you expect them to do stuff like patches and new characters i mean my guess would be as at least patches they'll do like they have been either like bi-weekly to monthly and then as far as new characters maybe every other month or every two months you know a couple of quarter maybe one a quarter something along those lines depending on where they get to as far as the big thing robert for me is these games getting to a good place cred in my opinion started off bare bones as fuck almost nothing in the game that was worth writing home about has slowly but surely progressively still slow in my opinion slowly but surely but consistently gotten more and more and gotten better and better over prime has been just a fucking like stock market graph everywhere dude it goes from like being fucking awesome i can't believe that i haven't been able to play a game like this ever before it's like my favorite thing i can't wait to wake up and play it i want to play it all day to i don't want to see that game don't even talk to me about it it smells bad to it's okay to it's back to amazing it's everywhere i it's a it's a roller coaster that's not fun that you just want to get off of it's it's crazy so i don't know if they can even get to a good place that's that's my answer i'm looking at their roadmap i'm scrolling up to see what heroes we're coming after mako and it's drongo and gravestone in april um gravestone but drongo might uh but the interesting thing is actually the roadmap so they they had the q1223 major updates the smart shop ai mode improvements tutorial improvements which were just made in this last patch game balance item presets and a lot of the stuff that's already come already the next thing after that is major updates of console emotes replay system mastery system dude that's we that i mean a lot of stuff that they're gonna be dropping all at once if they're really looking at quarter two for all of that yeah i don't know i don't know it's i still have a lot of fun with overprime i still enjoy the game quite a bit i enjoy both games a lot of people accuse me of fence setting but i genuinely enjoy playing both games i really do i get tilted for different reasons in both games which is which is i think why i can play both which is funny but like with overprime i get tilted because it gets boring after 15 20 minutes is just a stare off in mid lane predecessor i get tilted because of shit that's outside of my control or it's still good but it's just like i think i get more tilted in pred and i think it's because the game in pred feels like a ranked game without being a ranked game and and you have people who are doing in you have people who are doing and who are wanting it to play like it's a ranked game other people who are queuing in like it's a quick play other people who are queuing in just to be trolls and it's like and you just had to deal with that because there's only one queue unless you make your own custom games i think that's my biggest issue with pred i think they need i know it's hard to say that they want to separate a player pool but i i feel like they need to do so soon it just the quality of the games is so hit and miss at least for if you want to if you want a full casual experience it's very hit and miss i have better casual experience going into overprime than i do going into predecessor and so i think if you're trying to appeal to a casual player people who have jobs people have kids we maybe can't grind games and get really good at it it can only play a few times a week or on the weekends or something like that predecessor feels a little punishing to to play it's very tilting i find myself very frustrated after tilting uh and and yeah it's just so that's at least the identity of those two i think they're they're frustrating for different reasons and they're fun for different reasons um and and hopefully they both sorted out i think this is less so than when we said it originally but back after cbc2 mangoes and i remember talking about it saying that like overprime is the game that you go in and you're just looking to have a good time right you you're not gonna you're not grinding hard you're you're going in going balls to the wall doing flashy stuff and having a great time and then if you want to play super sweaty ultra competitive you play predecessor right like and i don't feel like that feeling is there as much anymore no not anymore no like yay i'm going into overprime and i'm just gonna have balls to the wall three abilities at the start let's go right and that that feeling is less and less that i feel like overprime is the did they just fun alternative compared to the competitive alternative and i think that's good and bad right i i like that the game is becoming more more competitive it's taking itself a little more seriously than i feel like it was cbc2 times but at the same time i feel like it's lowered the fun a little bit on that to get there and that feels bad it's chelay's comments today have been so good i'll let you guys read it in chat i think it's hilarious uh x or i'm sorry sgxd behind the scenes question uh do you all ever feel burnt out making content slash streaming these games i've been feeling a lot less motivated lately uh you must have missed it i at least for me and the reason why i haven't been on ftm these last two weeks is exactly that i just haven't burnt out i didn't feel like i enjoyed either game enough to be able to come on here and give you guys a good show i i didn't want to be disingenuous and try and talk about things that i didn't feel were good nails i didn't want to come on here and just be like these games fucking suck they all just eat like i didn't want to do that to you guys like i so uh that's why this face has been here for the last two weeks because i i haven't been playing them i haven't i've been burnt out or haven't enjoyed them i'm not won't speak for these two but yeah that's where i've been you know what i mean i'm not burnt out on the games but i do get content creator burnt out on occasion and i'll go into a lull for a couple weeks and then come back out of it but specifically for these games no i'm still still going strong look forward to failed experts to be perfectly honest the content creator grind is burned is a very burning out experience from everything i've seen from others and for myself when i made a lot of videos i can't speak for currently on these games necessarily i'm burnt out definitely on over prime more so than pred purely because the stale aspects of the game just drive me and saying that they're not getting addressed in any way shape or form from the developers but uh it's understandable that that's happening for sure especially with the die hard community that is the paragon community around these games i think the burnout can be very easily found sooner they like my voice i found an offensive well that's fine all right um yeah you guys ready to move on to thar let's go yeah because we got really good questions too uh an ftm questions for ftm i want to get into okay so third y'all jelly you wanted to talk about the mocap suit and i don't know a lot of i know um bearded had some questions about the mocap suit suit what's going on what's going on with y'all's animations so yeah so this is going to be a good news bad news situation here for you about the animations as a whole for one the mocap suit addressing we've got questions in the discord too um the mocap suit is proving to be more work than any one individual can handle and being that i've had the suit for a while now it's that i can't i don't have the time in my day with everything else that i'm trying to do outside of ethereal um to be able to do those animations justice in the way that they need to be done right like it's it's just a time consuming process it's not we've got the kind of processes worked out but past that it's just too much time for me to be able to handle so i am actually sending that suit um back to the developing team and we're trying to assess how we can create a team around that mocap suit to better handle those animations the pipeline the whole line yards so in terms of mocap that is the late isn't the right word but that is on hold for the moment until we are better able to build a team around it instead of it just being one individual or one or two individuals trying to build that backup so i know that's been a question uh oh okay well maybe robert jones we can talk about that later um chat is so good today boys thank you guys this is i'm so i've missed you guys so much this is great chasmik cracking me up this whole fucking show bro i don't uh yeah go ahead jelly sorry who used the aspect of this thing is that while the mocap suit is on hold that doesn't mean nothing's being done about the animations we developed a plan internally of updating those in those animations with our animations team that they're not gonna they aren't qualified to be working with the mocap stuff but they do have animation software and all of that they're updating skeletons they're making it so we have better options available to us to improve those animations faster rather than waiting for this mocap suit team to come online and get those animations out there so we it's a difference we're kind of shifting gears on where the os animations are coming from in the short term but then in the long term still planning on using the mocap suit so i just wanted to i know there's been questions for bearded like i said in discord it's been a thing that's been coming up so i wanted to make sure and talk about that since we had the conversation earlier this week we talked stunt yeah seriously where's son give me all those animations let's go yeah um i think i think if it was just as easy as putting it on and then to be like okay i'm i'm gonna make animations now it wouldn't be a problem so i i just stunned i i think i speak a little bit for the team when i say that they probably appreciate your enthusiasm to help but i don't think it's just as easy as putting it on a couple guys and making sure you happen maybe because kira is brand new brand new ip playing kira in predecessor really made me have a hankering to play ethereal i just like to hear that you know because like she's all brand new and stuff so it's fun to like learn this new new hero stuff that's the fun of ethereal as you it is it's a third person moment so that's familiar to us but there's so many other different new things going on with ethereal and i miss playing it it's such a fun fucking game i just i went back today i don't often do this look at my own videos but i went back and watch the the little short that i made where i caught that leah clearing a camp on this on the edge of a map picked her ass up and chucked her off the edge oh that's so good no the shit you could do ethereal is so cool that leads into the question you know play test win yes they test win i asked guys i asked they ethereal win exactly oh and when is it oh boy yeah but that mean that that was the main thing mangoose is just talking about the mocap see what our plans are kind of the the adjustment and priority for that kind of stuff you know khalia's animations look pretty good so i mean the first kind of step in that new pipeline of of those mocap animations right we knew that she wasn't going to have mocap animations so we were trying to find out other avenues and khalia kind of showed us where more of that potential is in the short term so that's kind of the more of the direction we're heading in going forward with the with the other myths right oh um since we do have oan here in jelly you can also talk about it can we get more cat girls in the game cuz i mean we can change it up like you know so like fox girls cat girls we can have like dog girls uh we need the dog boy that was teased a long time ago uh no no boys oh yeah you're talking about i almost said their name but yes yeah yeah oh shit jelly knows the name so does he do like we said is he a flying hero that uses his tail yes yes confirmed he the wolf tail spin around like tail through the conic and he flies around the map because he's certainly a sky slayer and throws swords excellent throws throws great swords not just regular sword yeah i love it all the monster girls oh and thank you appreciate you i knew i was talking to the right guy the alamia we need arachnia there you go i need the centaur girl with the huge boobs hey it'll sell if you guys have seen the anime you know what i'm talking about um i think that was the uh robert the only fans robert jones was talking about was where all those characters are going uh is that it for theory you guys got anything else for theory you guys want to move on to the questions for this week we are good to move on oh shit this first one is like i think my favorite one this is one i probably want to well i don't know how much time we'll spend on it but i i think it's the coolest question out of them go ahead and um address it i've got a fun word the fuck i got this shit doing this make use you put out that video this week of AI art changing the ethereal characters and most of them were garbage and i hated 99 percent of them however however the gundam tallow skin was oh yeah i looked at and i went yes i need this in this game's joke yeah that one was really good dude that skin is so good it's wild the fact that it tried to turn frost into a girl is like how is that a thing and grog dark grog dark completely changed entirely like a weird very weird one like he said 99 percent were garbage gundam tallow's high approval all right so what's the question here you got it no go for it so uh crimson range he came in with uh two this week but we'll do the first one um his question is i mean you put a lot of things but i'll just get to the basic of it do you think implementing mana list character or characters with a different form of mana that activates their abilities could work in either game so for me i think of like you know energy rage uh stamina for tallows yeah i think we've all played enough rpg's that we can kind of get the other types of you know mana quote unquote or energy source that you use to make it um i guess the question is do you think that there's champions that already in the game that could use and benefit from it um and would be fun whether you have to change their kits or not i don't know it depends on how far deep you want to go into it i know my first reaction one that i think would be really cool but i'm curious what your guys's thoughts are as soon as you i i didn't look at these questions beforehand um like i said i had a rough fucking day but anyway as soon as you said that i immediately thought that calari i think would be really cool that with a rogue style energy system like a world warcraft that way like she expends her energy to deal damage and she needs to keep an eye on that to see if she has enough energy to flip away and go invisible and shit or does she go all in i think that would make calari a far more skill expressive hero if she worked on an energy system instead of a mana system and the energy system if you guys don't know in warcraft it starts full as you use abilities the abilities cast a different amount of energy but it refills really quickly so it's just a balance of knowing when to use your abilities and how much energy you have so i think that would be fun for calari robert jones perfect perfect example grim in fault had energy i think grim in having energy made a lot of sense i hated grim for how the energy worked with some of his abilities but the energy itself was a good change for grim um i tallow men get mangoes mentioned tallows in ethereal has functions on a energy system um and so that very very similar uh the one that actually came to mind wasn't even calari which it's funny that you you guys were talking about calari and i didn't even think about her um but it's gravestone gravestone becoming a manless character making him a very neutral kind uh hero across the board but he's manless i think would have been is a perfect change make him i mean part of this is because he's garen adjacent garen's manless right but yeah i think it fits and that was uh that could be a good change for gravestone for these games is making him manless so my the first one when i read this was uh grucks i think grucks would actually do it would be really fun with like a rage style you know thing the more rage he has it builds up but when you use it it uses a rage but like you know if you get full rage bar and then go into ultimate it adds a certain thing you know something along those lines i think um there's a few different champions that you could probably mimic like you know renekton or even a trendamere like you know where trendamere's uh rage when you get the higher you have more rage the more likely you are to crit like and do damage uh whereas with uh renekton there's different added benefits if you reach a certain point of rage um so like your stun lasts longer or you know so i i think grucks could benefit from that like you know so my initial thought was with with renekton if you get to halfway through rage his q gets an extended on it so it's a longer q um or you know his dash goes farther and does a bigger knock up or you know something along those lines i think would be a lot more fun and again create those skill expressive moments um rather than just having you know i especially with the melee characters i feel like it's really a bummer to have them on mana when it's like you have to already be up in there and swinging and doing all this i feel like there would be a benefit if their abilities didn't require them to have to manage a mana at the same time that they had some other way to interact with the world um i think it would be cool personally um but yeah those were the first ones i did think of calari also i thought would be benefit from uh energy uh that was my other one uh i think that would be really fun actually leneo brings up a good point how would bellica's all work i think it would just work exactly you can't have you have to have some sort of resource to go to go when it would still be percentage based and you might think that's unfair to somebody if you did give calari energy system or whatever but right now if you don't have any mana you don't fucking go near bellica like that's just how it works if you're calari into bellica you just wouldn't use all your energy all the time it regents faster as well so you also have that if you wait too long to bellica old their percentage goes up very quickly in response so it's a very sweet spot thing as well so yes it's stronger faster but it's also weaker faster on the alternative for energy type characters i came up with a hero concept one time that the lower their mana was the slower they moved but their abilities cost health to cast with one ability costing mana to regen health so it would be a balancing act between using your health as a resource but if you yeah okay good user for ethereal i'll send her over to you i think that would be a fun system having to balance your health and your mana kind of like zinx zinx was um an example of that you had to balance your health in your in your mana yeah i'm thinking oh man i totally just blinked on her name but in league the support character jelly that heals and but uses your health pool to heal and you have your q that she throws down and then it does an aoe and if you hit with it you get your health back i'm probably going on a syrocha there you go that's a very similar thing it's very cool a very interesting way to play the game for sure i think it's awesome i would love to see that in ethereal actually i think ethereal would actually do really well with something like that especially with the the positive negative type the stuff that you guys have uh yeah so that's that's it any any other ones you guys could think of as far as uh manless characters crunch crunch yeah i i think that's where you could have crunch kind of be overtuned in his combos but really balance him out by having energy costs whereas so his the combo you choose is just enough you have just enough energy to fully execute that combo but you then you can't just go right into a second combo afterwards because you have so much mana you have to wait or you can do a single ability or maybe one or two abilities depending on how long afterwards for that energy to recharge i could see that being a huge benefit to so both games have crunch now already but i was thinking of him working on more of a rage type system where i could do that too like forward crunch actually builds rage and if he gets hit that builds rage if he hits it builds rage but his left and right crunch costs rage to cast yeah i don't know i think i think it would be cool in any of the games um um it's a paragon did mess with and so far over prime and predecessor haven't messed with fault did with gravedad a little bit yeah past now we haven't seen much and i think it would to to be honest i think it would create a more interesting way to play the game with the characters that are already there because exactly what you're talking about some champions would be you know weaker against maybe energy if there's more energy champions in the game or whatever like either or they would be stronger or whatever like i think that there are absolutely benefits and cons to it and i think that would make the game more interesting and fun so i think it's a really good idea i don't know if they'll implement it necessarily uh i think of the two games to be able to over prime seems to be the one that's not scared to change things too much they're willing to throw new things at the wall but i would love it i mean this is something i said before i would love it if pred would just would innovate a little bit more with their kits um and that kind of leads into crimson's other question um at what point should both games start taking risks in their decisions with regards to mechanics map changes character he works rather than only taking the safest route that pleases the vocal majority uh right now i think they already have both both games have already changed a few of the kits just drastically decker and predecessor uh kalari and quang in uh in over prime i think um quang is a good example of how it can go extremely well whereas kalari in over prime is i think that would piss a lot of people off i think her kit's fine they need to make her ultimate a little easier to hit once again but i think kalari's weakness in over prime is itemization more than it's her kit yeah quang was a huge huge success in my eyes for over prime hundred percent yeah and quang is a high skill ceiling hero but when you get that to that point very very very strong so it's then that's perfectly acceptable i do think that pred has gone the safest of the two uh as far as their route to to doing things it's the safest and meaning that they haven't changed a whole lot like from from the previous iterations of the game um i could see them i i would love a rework of their jungle i fucking hate their jungle still i think it's it's just it's so confusing it's i don't know i i don't like it i don't like the choke points that they have on it i don't like the space on it so it's just it's makes the team fights feel really bad especially with the time to kill and being so low um what's depending on which champions are in the game uh so i would love that i do i would love to if i'm gonna push either this the titles i would love to push pred more i would want to see pred do things a little because when they have innovated it's been really good like i at least i think so i think decker in in predecessor is a really good example of changing the kit while not losing the character's identity like she is still very much decker in my opinion and in the hands of varying skilled champion or skill players you get a wildly different experience with her like i i i've had deckers that are garbo and you can't do shit in the whole game and it's like why did you pick this champion and then i've had one like god how do we even deal with this chick like she's just so mobile and she's got so much peel and so much easy fuck this champion that's to me a success and i have i can't scream success on almost any of the other champions because they're all for the most part still pretty basic to what we remember from a game that died you know seven years ago so i think if i was going to push either of the titles i would push pred to try and do things a little bit less safe try to be a bit more aggressive in some aspects um because i think that their game could use it um so i hope that answers crimson's question did you guys have any other insights on that one before we jump into the next one i'm just going to address chat real quick i got kook lane he's the dr jekyll mr mr hide motherfucker in smite right like after a certain point you turn into a big beast monster thing that would be cool see i'll play it smite a little bit um and i'm hammer says uh bring bring back cursed items i i i like the cursed items i like them i thought they were cool slowly missing from both games to an extent are those like high risk high reward items and cursed items were that in paragon right there are a couple items like that in the other mobas where it's like if i kill a hero i'm gaining five ability power until i die but when i die i lose 30 just at the top right and those there that creates a lot of fun for people playing those characters that are trying to break up the kind of staleness of these games is like you know what i'm going to go super greedy this game i've got two kills in already five let's do it let's go we're gonna we're gonna build me up and then if they die that sucks but at least they were trying to do something different right it created a switch up and builds whereas they feel kind of static measure i soul stealer exactly uh yeah i like the way the cursed items work too and that you invested a bunch of gold into them and you just fucking lost them if you died so it was like buying an item and then not having it if you just immediately died afterwards it was a little bit of a gamble it made it fun yeah it was exhilarating absolutely let's let's move on to it what good no go ahead never mind i'm not i was gonna say uh move let's move on to the fox mcclouds question how do you feel about cures q scaling from physical but dealing magical damage i think it's going to confuse the shit out of people and they're going to think i'm going to build a bunch of magical damage because she deals magical damage over q and it's not going to work out so well it's it's it's weird i guess see i don't think it's going to make a difference one way the other now i think there are plenty of other characters i i think carries are the ones where this is more rare i think there are plenty of other characters that their abilities scale off of one thing and deal a different type of damage tanks mainly come to mind right a lot of tanks have armor or health scaling but deal magical damage right and i've now heard people going like well i built i built magic damage why isn't it doing more magic damage because you're a tank build health like it's it's it's trying to force you into the build you should be doing on that character and i think that's fine and like i said i don't think it's going to make too big a deal but i realize carries are more rare in that switching up of what i build to what damage type is dealt oh good call arma the way in the chat my bad i forgot about that yeah i don't yeah i don't people are acting like it's a huge thing like you're already if you're building magical armor you're already going to be building magical armor because of the mid laner yep but you know i don't i don't know i don't think it's gonna be that big of a deal i think everybody should have access to some other source of damage i think all of all of the adcs i'm pretty sure have some source of magical damage in their kit somewhere so it's not going to be that big of a deal yeah i i'm exactly the same way i like it when a champion can have multiple because it makes itemization better for not not your itemization necessarily although it can uh revenant being an example of that i mean more like the team that's looking against you like oh man they're ad heavy well maybe not because kira's in the game and she scales ap as well with her like she just continues to build damage but she's going to be doing ap damage to you as uh at the same time when she ever hits your cube is it enough to necessarily hard change your things i don't know depends like the game might if she's the most ahead you might need to balance around her and i think anytime you're forcing people to have to get off their quote-unquote cookie cutter builds that somebody has told them in a discord is the best build 100 of the time that's that's that's good for me i'm all forward like having like hey this is a cookie cutter build you're gonna be fine more times than you're not have you built this game but as you get higher up in in in ranks and in quality of games i want to see item diversification start to show itself and that's going to be dependent on the champions and how far ahead they are or how behind are they you might not need to worry about her if she's been getting her butthole stomped the whole game and she's not going to be doing damage to you in the first place build around the people who are doing damage to you i think that's that's fun and exciting i don't think it matters at all you just build damage on her and don't worry about the magical damage aspect ratios too much i think people are overly complicating something that is pretty straightforward and easy to look at i think it's silly you get it the nerd guys are getting too nerdy you know i mean you just need to take down the notch nerds robert jose discord should be linked in the description for the for the stream and uh i don't know if one of you two can link the discord in the chat but if i try and link it right now it's going to take the uh it's going to fuck up the stream i think jelly's already beating me too yeah i'm much appreciated the fellas and uh zygore's got two questions for us that he popped in today during stream even coming to not comparing kira to op's zina who do you think has stronger as in more fun play higher quality first original hero design oh that's a pretty that's pretty good question that it's hard that's that's a hard question to ask though because they are very different roles they fell two different places right i personally i think zina is more fun uh but that's just i also i she's my most play champion on overprime by far like i played the shit out of zina i think her kid is just way more like you get a huge long right click you have an ultimate that makes you invulnerable and you just dance dance around and you know dude a lot of damage she has a knock up she has a shield that does her cute she's just she's got so much fun buttons to press i do think here is fun to play especially in pred where there's not as not that there's lacking in skill expression i just feel like here is probably the most skill expressive champion now in pred's arsenal so i think that she's going to be especially in the carry role i should say there's probably other ones that can argue whether or not they're more skill expressive but uh yeah i i think zina person i think it's a good comparison between the games really i think yeah zina is more flashy and fun while kira is more well thought out and better implemented that's like that's but that's overprime versus pred assessor right there and we see that in their part in their two first original ip heroes that kind of cracks me up anger from what i've seen so far oh thanks for the laugh joe do you have anything else to add yeah i think i think that's exactly i think you hit the nail on the head kira seems more well put together but not as flashy and i think like i said earlier they're both very safe in terms of character design nothing over the top they're not pushing the boundaries on design itself they're not they're they're both fairly derivative on both the characters on release was like oh so they have so-and-so's ability from this game yeah right there's no none of them were like wow that's different okay like so 50 50 like i wouldn't say one's necessarily better than the other just different zygore exactly yeah it's well thought out that they just stole it from another game and put it into their game uh they thought about it really long and hard uh which ip can we borrow um no i i kira i mean when i i she she's fun she's she's fun i think she's gonna be a good addition to the game overall i think zina exactly what you guys are saying is way more flashy she does things that are kind of wackadoodle and crazy the problem though too was zina has been the optimization of the game has been kind of weird especially on higher ping so playing a character like zina is really difficult when you think you're zooming one way and then it teleports you back to another spot and you're all discombobulated so it's hard to sometimes say that in those aspects but uh i still had a lot of fun was zina when she first came out but she fits way more of my character play currently um kira i think will fit a lot of other people's play play especially in the carry role i think she's gonna be very interesting i keep saying that she's gonna be interesting uh last question another one from zygor how do you guys feel about tanks at ttk in the pred meta when predcast people have complained about it non-stop the last couple weeks and i think they're fine hmm a time to kill 100 too low that i don't want to see it doubled but i definitely think it needs to come up from where it is um and we've talked about that many many times but the tank stuff is really hard because there are times where i go up against a tank and i'm like this this guy's unkillable like i what am i supposed to do against this i'm a carry that's supposedly fed using the anti tank item eviscerator right and then i still can't take apart a tank and then other times i look at a 4k health tank and i sneeze and they go down right and so it's like i i feel like it's a tank itemization issue more than it's a tank character issue that needs to be figured out better and maybe it's that people let's let's face it nobody really likes to play tanks in a lot of cases because they're not flashy they don't do damage they're not going to be the highest kill count they're not going to be the highest anything realistically maybe assists maybe they'll be high on assists but because of that i don't feel like it's been as figured out as the other roles have in predecessor especially because i've never seen a consistent other than brimstone meta i have really haven't seen consistent tank builds coming out of my games at all every time i see a tank really i don't think so i don't know what they are i kind of agree at least in the games that i've played most of the time it seems like and part of it i think is also the way the pred team fights work out there's way less full five on five team fights and since tanks are typically taken in the off lane and it's a hit and miss whether or not you feel like as the off laner you're going to rotate and this is again where i come back to with predecessor and why i feel like they need to do something bigger if they added a teleport for example or something along those lines to where the off laner who's playing a tank can now come in and actually be impactful if you had a steel that could come in that's been playing off lane has been doing well farming up fine has all his tank items you know he's just doing his thing with his ultimate showing up and and you know and you're out of fight that that's that's what it is to me that's game breaking and we see it in league of legends all the time and that's why tanks still managed to be really good in league is because of those things they can actually come and actually make an impact otherwise what's the point in taking a tank in the off lane you might as well just go a bruiser which is why you see so many of the more of the bruisers and why they were more prevalent than you were seeing tanks in my opinion and people those bruisers weren't building tank items very often or they're doing a 50 50 of tank versus just going carry items almost in some cases and they were just that's that's what the games were because the 5v5 moments of where you have like what I would call front to back team fighting so you have the meatballs in the front carries in the back and it's you know a standoff of who gets what and what cooldowns get used who has what abilities who's used their blinks recently you don't have any of that cohesion because a lot of times these fights feel broken they happen spurs about and people just get blown up out of nowhere well I guess we can't do this team fight anymore because now it's a 4v5 we just lose or we both of our duo lane got shit on it just I don't know I think having a teleport or something along those lines okay I think a gate scroll item would be the best solution for predecessor in particular it allows you to teleport to a tower yeah something to get well I would say after like what league did was uh after a certain amount of time you could teleport to like wards and stuff like that with it's an unlocked teleport either way even if it if that's what it is like hey I can teleport to a tower that still exists right on the other side of the map that's at least a step in the right direction to get those tanks and solo lanes more involved with the rest of the map and and the fact that you can't do that right now I think is why sometimes it feels like tanks are relatively unused because I don't think they do well as as supports in the same way I think it depends it's so heavy dependent on how the laning phase goes with the tank support that it's it's harder to get the income to get to the tank items to do that if you're behind and if you get your tank behind it's on the support and you get the carry behind it's just a loss all the way around so I feel like that's I don't know those are just my thoughts I know there's a lot of nuance that goes into it and there's things I'm probably missing or over explaining but that's how I look at it probably the better exception to the tank issue comparatively to rampage what's that steel is probably a better exception to tanks being hit or miss compared to someone like rampage steel is so impactful otherwise and the itemization really fits what steel can do as well that every time you like uh I can't remember what the item name is now but it's every time you immobilize a hero deal a bunch of magic damage oh fuck yeah okay what is that I just built it the other day it's so good I built it today and I can't even remember yeah uh but it like steel the itemization on steel dynamo really good there you go um but I think itemization on rampage doesn't feel as good I feel like itemization on Richter to an extent if you're trying to go like full tank Richter doesn't feel as good it like that kind of stuff feels more lacking comparatively to the other roles in the game so I think so I play a lot of rampage in predecessor I play rampage jungle whatever I played the jungle role and I think he's fine like I haven't had any the only problem is people surrender before you can get your tank items online that's the problem in both games right now is people surrender before you can ever get the late game to really show what a tank is all about because tanks are late game heroes but the ADCs are also late game heroes and I know people will complain about getting shredded by ADCs I go in if I if everybody if we get to a point where everybody's level 18 at as rampage I know that if I step up to that drongo murdoch sparrow whatever and just try to stay in their face without my team being there then I'm gonna fucking die and that's the way it should be I shouldn't as a tank be able to take on 1v1 a fully leveled fully built carry that just should not happen because I have another a different role I can jump in soak a bunch of ultimates and then usually have some sort of escape with rampage you ult up yourself or you jump away you have ways of playing a tank where you're still effective in the team fights and then if you are ahead then of course you can just get up into that carries face beat them out of the fight and your your team can clean up or you know you can turn and peel off of your your ADC or whatever but I haven't seen that big of a of an issue with it as I've seen people talk about like um I play I played steal off lane I played I played rampage jungle a lot way more than I played steal off lane and I just late game I feel like I should feel like I feel like I'm playing the way that I should play and if I get deleted by a carry that was my fault a lot of the times not not and it is intellect jelly brought up in a lot of its itemization I I actually build tank items like I don't say I'm a tank because I'm a big big beefy boy and then build all damage like I'm building like warden's faith if I see that they're that the enemy ADC is building crit um I'm building that crystal and cure ass if they have like a should be your account is or something you know there's items that you can build there's a there's a plenty of build diversity there and if you build correctly you can tank correctly and pred yep overprime is the same way overprime I think tanks are actually a little more beefy and a little a little scarier late game I see I would say that overprime because you get more 5v5 team fights you you feel the impact of of especially good tanks and tanks that have had an uh and have itemized well like you're just like shits how do we deal with this fucker like and that's to me when I think of a tank that's the real tanks have come online is like what do we do we have to play around this raid boss it's basically walking around and giving and setting his team up for for success and and I think that's fun and again my favorite iteration of MOBAs typically is when you have really good what I call you know front to back team fighting where it's it's really like you know who can get to the back line efficiently and survive and kill somebody or blow summoners or blow whatever it is to get things to happen I don't feel that happened as much in pred feels like pred more times than not is skirmishes across the map not really 5v5 where you're grouping up and having team fights and I think a lot of that has to do with how choke pointy the jungle is there's no real space of the jungle that's just how I look at it it's very narrow avenues so you don't have a lot of movability you don't have a lot of flank you don't have a lot of like so things just tend to just get clusterfucked and thrown together and whoever just happens to have the most gear wins or something like that I don't know it just feels weird in my opinion when you get to the team fights it doesn't feel like there's a real back and forth and time to kill has a lot to do with it and I think the tanks not wanting to build tank because it's boring or because it just doesn't feel valuable more times not especially in a solo queue environment like what who's going to want to solo queue into and try and play tank like it's just you as a tank you're so reliant on your team knowing how to play around you yeah but you're a weirdo like most people I would imagine are not wanting to go into solo lane and play tank they're going to want to play something that where they can feel like they're making something happen for themselves because what why else am I spending 30 to 40 minutes in this game if I'm just going to be doing all the things that I'm supposed to do as a tank and then when it's time to do what I do best my team doesn't play around me correctly and then I just die a bunch of times for no reason because my team runs away when somebody pops an ultimate I don't know there's an amount that Paragon had a tank issue as well something I win the beard what are you talking about stumps and that like there were no there are very few full fledged tank characters right he was one of them rampage was one of them a gray stone sometimes was one of them right like but in terms of you in a lot of these other mobas tank characters are a lot more plentiful right you go like I need to play a tank I have two dozen options right like in great that they have a hundred characters but still but the point stands of like there there is a good portion of the roster that can be a tank if they need to be whereas the Paragon roster wasn't that as much like yes you can build health and armor on anybody but they are they really a tank and that's that's where I think a lot of this comes down to it's not the fault of either game necessarily but it is definitely a thing Tara Tara was probably the most tank tank in Paragon and she was the last character added to the game right Tara and further bearded Wolverine here you go further why Tara should have been in this this season of predecessor is you could have had the tanks tank right all the tanks are looking up to somebody they're looking up to Tara because that's just who she was in the game and that would have been a great addition that I feel like is is missing to an extent but I I will have to play more tanks to get a better educated opinion on where they actually feel with itemization it seems seems like Adele is going to be the tanks tank in overprime exactly we did get two more questions added late I know where we got maybe about 10 minutes do we want to add those in or hello we've been going here yeah I thought we'd be wrapping it up in about 10 minutes so we got time for maybe one or both depending on how long we talk about them it's up to you guys though if you want to wrap it up now we'll do one more question we'll save the next one for next week how about that all right how about them apples we could see which one's better okay the first one okay both games are on a steady decline in population how does each company try to market their game to bring in new players and retain their existing ones I don't think they really need to worry about it right now as much I think once they both go full releases when they should do a big marketing dump and then if I've been saying this for a little bit now too if we see either game release on console and not blow up then that spells doom for both yep because if they cannot succeed on the console then they're kind of fucked where I slightly defer from you man goose in I mean the most general way possible right in that when they have a stable console build right I wouldn't say first patch of console because god knows that that's going to be a disaster it's going to be but once they have their first truly stable patch on console that should be the moment full release notwithstanding that that they like you said if they're not blowing up on console bad thing for both of them and but that console release that they're stable and they have a good build going that should be the thing that triggers a bigger marketing push not necessarily full-fledged all resources go but you need to do something because that's that is your make or break moment more than not and people keep talking about how both games have lost so many players but fault survived on like 200 players a day max like usually it was like 100 150 for like two years so I think that I think these games with much larger companies behind them can survive a little bit longer still I think in the case of overprime where you're already free to play I think the console marketing push is way bigger and more important than it may be for predecessor if they're not free to play at the same time console goes out and overprime I think also has a little bit more leverage in the marketing department too because they have net marble which has other games that they can bring skins in from stuff like that I know people get pissed off whenever I talk about this but Maeve the the metaverse k-pop band that Xena is in like they can leverage that I don't give a shit if you like k-pop or not guys you got you can at least admit that it's a pretty big thing in Korea right now that Maeve is a pretty popular fucking band like you can at least and you don't admitting that it's popular doesn't mean that you like k-pop god damn it like people get people get all antsy about that it doesn't I don't give a shit if you like the song or not you you've got to admit that Maeve is a pretty big thing and overprime can can leverage that popularity a little bit because that there has been no mention of that Xena is in a video game yet and I think that they are going to leverage that eventually when they're ready two things about Maeve specifically uh their youtube channel has 150,000 subscribers so that's huge yeah one thing and Pandora got 2.2 million views so far right their song sorry hundreds almost 170,000 subscribers um that alone is a huge that there it is July there you go brilliant not girls boys the k-pop boy groups yet here comes man goose Pandora it's a catchy song oh thousand percent every time Pandora comes on in my car i'm like yay let's go um but they that was they posted that a month ago a little over a month ago and really have not done much since then and they have 170,000 subscribers and 2.2 million views I think that that by itself proves that it is a marketing powerhouse if they decide to utilize it for that and we have already seen in the Maeve video they're like over prime was like like you got twin blasts in the background at points and stuff like that so they have you know snuck it in there a little bit so I believe that that will be something that they leverage in the future and I would not be surprised to see the other three members of that virtual band make appearances in in over prime eventually it makes sense let's get some baby metal skins while I'm remembering predecessor in the patch or in the blog post that they talked about Kira and all of her abilities and everything they talked about extending the end of season it's supposed to end at the end of this month it's actually ending April 17th that that has changed and they did say they did kind of put out a advisory that spectator mode may not make it before the end of season that they're working on it that that's part of why that they delayed is they want to see if they can get it in there before the end of season mark actually hits but then that is a potential um or that that that won't make it into the end of season what that tells me is that api will make it into end of season and the v1 of the tutorial will make it by end of season because those are the other things on the roadmap and I'd have to double check anything else is missing by the way I have zero problem with them delaying shit if they need to I would be open about it is the important thing yeah exactly like if the patch had dropped and they didn't say anything in spectator mode was just absent fine but them being like you know what and especially in a big post like their first original hero we're going to talk about our first original hero but first we want to tell you that this might be delayed right that's huge because where are you going to have your most of your eyes on your new thing where everyone's excited where everyone's doing the thing I think that's a great place to put it um and I looked it up yet that those are the big three things that are still yet to be added into the game or spectator mode api and tutorial so if they're saying that the spectator mode is the thing it's delayed that tells me api and tutorial are coming before end of season I'm also curious if they're they're uh wanting to amp up uh their production to get ranked out soon because I know that uh behind the scenes there's uh there's been some rumors about people putting together their own ranked uh often like not actually part of it but they're using quick play as a way to formulate their ranked by putting together teams and stuff like that and some of the bigger players are involved with that uh I think that's yeah solar is big into that right now um if you guys don't watch solar reaper check out his streams uh he's been playing it with that particular system and it's made for better gameplay overall more even matches and I'm hoping that my my thing was leading into that was not necessarily to blow up anybody's spot or anything like that but it's more to say like I hope that the team is paying attention to it uh so that way they could see that there is a demand for those type of because those games are very high quality versus what I think the vast majority of us are experiencing which is hit and miss quality depending on what everybody's feeling are we playing a ranked quick play today are we playing troll quick play today is everybody on their own page today you know so everybody's just gonna pick 80 carries and go into the bot lane uh I don't know it's it's a little it's a little wonka doodle yeah that's or or my name I was talking about your um your ranked discord your unofficial ranked system for pred I always like I said I didn't know if it was something that they really wanted to like blow up but I I know that the team uh is aware that it exists and so I was just curious if that it was putting more pressure or I'm hoping that it's putting more pressure on them to do something like that to increase the quality of games or people who want to play things a bit more uh competitively just uh if you're interested in that click on soul reapers name right now go to his youtube channel subscribe and I'm sure he has it in a description for a video somewhere I don't know if you could post links or not soul reaper hang on if you can't send it to it to one of us and we can post it in there for you either way or put us put it in the fcm discord anyway I made you a mod you should be able to now there you go zygord gives you permission soul reaper so you may actually secretly waiting for zygord to sign off on it we were in the background wait he blesses off on everything we do oh no I also I do this since we're openly talking about because again I wasn't sure if that was something that was being openly talking about I think it's really neat that the the community uh after the these last few patches for pred have put together stuff like this like I think that's so exciting to see um that they're you know people are going out of their way they're enjoying the game so much that they're wanting to create their own experiences in a way that granted it also points a pretty big finger at like hey you don't have this for me to be able to do officially through your channels so we're doing it ourselves but at the same time I think it's really neat that there's people who are wanting to innovate behind the scenes and make stuff yeah it's unofficial rank for pred exactly yeah so it'll be it'll be really cool I obviously go to soul reaper to figure out what it takes to be able to be part of it I'm sure that there's some kind of system to get invited uh but either way I wasn't invited so that that's at least your floor you know okay uh well I think let's go about wrapping up for tonight um a lot of this is a fun show I ended up a lot longer than I expected it to but uh we got Jedi back and that's why but I'm gonna yeah I'm gonna continue playing both games and continue enjoying both games looking forward to a lot of these changes looking forward to the rank reset coming to uh to over prime because I would like to redeem myself for in ranked because I kind of fucked I blew it out my ass the first go around let's see if I can do a little bit better this time but yeah uh Jeladies anything any final comments anything you want to plug not that immediately comes to mind um yeah I'm excited for Akira on Tuesday and all the other changes that are coming as well theoretically meaning API tutorial and bearded even mentioned competitive nights still haven't happened so that's another one that's been missing Jera uh another really to report uh I haven't been streaming because uh I've just been I don't know do another stuff uh personal life stuff has been kind of taken over uh gaming and so it's been inconsistent to be able to try and stream but I do want to get back to it I will be for sure going live uh during the um rank grind again uh because that that was a lot of fun last time we did it uh and uh that's it vx at the end of the month I probably will be streaming that oh I got I gots to we gots to play that oh boy chat if you guys have not checked it out if you like third person shooters a big shout out to vx I think it's super super cool very fun game if you've played rogue company it's kind of similar ish ish but uh they do a really good job of of that genre anyway veiled experts you're the wondering what vx is veiled experts oh and the fpm discord man I'll keep plugging it because it's actually pretty cool we get a lot of the questions that we uh answer here for you guys come from the discord um but the chat has been popping off dude fpm chat is like every day people discussing like the meta about both games just really fun stuff it's mostly positive I think I've seen like maybe one or two negative comments and they tend to get removed of their own accord not even a mod coming in and removing it because they just feel bad for saying something stupid uh so yeah that's the other thing I'll plug because fpm discord is pretty sick all right awesome um and that's gonna wrap it up for this week thank you everybody that watched the stream um I get I've been getting a lot of comments people have zero idea that we're still doing this because they haven't seen the videos going up so what I'm going to do is I'm going to unlist this stream as soon as we're done here and then I will uh repost this as an actual video but for now this is the four of the minions crew signing off you guys have a good one oh shit jelly I got you good you fucking guy