 Hello everyone. Thank you very much for coming. This is a presentation on helping Drupal authors produce inclusive content My name is Mike Gifford. I'm a senior strategist at Civic Actions. Before that I was the owner and CEO of Open Concept Consulting. I was based in in Ottawa and You know frankly for many reasons still I am but but I'm living for for a few months in the south of France So I having an opportunity to to come here on the train, which is wonderful Definitely nice to go off into to be to be here or to come in a more sustainable way than then I would have otherwise so First of all before I jump into jumping it too deeply does does Does everyone here understand what what accessibility is and is is familiar with the sort of general topic of of web accessibility? because I'm not going to be trying to go and and start from From the scratch about what WKG is and why accessibility matters. There's lots of great talks on that This is really important. Those are important talks to to listen to and to learn from Particularly you're dealing with with hearing it from people with disabilities. I think that that's really important But I wanted to dive into what we can do is Drupal to try and and and help Help our community be be more accessible particularly for authors. How do we support authors and producing more accessible content? the the other thing is is that I'm a Drupal accessibility maintainer of a Drupal core accessibility maintainer So being spearheading this is initiative in Drupal for for over a decade at this point And it's really been exciting to see how far things have gone and how the community is has grown and and and changed over time so So we're thinking about content management systems I wanted to first of all briefly jump back and think about the the structure So most of the stuff most of the time when we're talking about Drupal We're talking about the the frame. It's the outside the picture is something that's generated by the authors that we're trying to feature and grow So that's the frame. We're developing right so you've got the headers you have footers you have Sidebars or however it is You have search boxes You have You know carousels you have have all of these elements that are there for that, but but they're not they're not really These are pieces that are are useful for for us and important for us, but not things that authors generally interact with Authors more often anytime you're dealing with managing content. You're dealing largely with You know HTML as a form of content or structure of content You're things like markdown another way that content is generated Text also very accessible markdown text or excellent ways to produce wealth well-structured content a text less So than than markdown, but but still it's it's a very accessible for people to access But then you've got what most people generate content in which is which is word documents, right? So and word Or Google Docs They they are great at what they do, but they're not particularly good for accessibility. They're not Really designed for the web. They're designed for their own particular document ecosystems So they're terrific for that, but not really good for sharing information to the web So how do we try and take take the this information however the author presents it and then bring that into either Drupal input fields like your title bar Your image fields your tags You know things like the authored by if you're trying to organize that and have your list of who's authored You know these are the the input forms that them the One one UI guy in the Drupal community described it as sort of like elements poking up from a database This is how what we present to users like the the checkboxes the authored on dates the the drag and drop interfaces But most the content is generated by the the body, right? It's that is the body of the content which in in Drupal is done with ck editor, right? So this is what in Drupal 10 comes out of the box. You have the option to go off and see it in basic You can see it with the in it in a restricted HTML version So people have more access to that again. This depends on your permissions and finally there's there's a full HTML version And this is this is a great way to go off and to to pull in information and to give the authors the ability to to try to Put in the information that they need in the way that they convey their their message to the intended audience but there's problems with it because How many people have done accessibility errors or found accessibility errors that were caused by the authors After using ck editor a bunch of people, right? So it's really easy to go off and generate even though with the restricted elements that are available in Drupal's Ck editor interface. It's easy to generate accessibility errors, right? You can have instances with heading headings are out of order you have issues with Missing alt text you have or bad alt text. You've got the wrong semantic information being presented It's really easy to produce In accessible documents for authors, and we don't really give them a lot of support in producing more accessible content I'm gonna talk a bit more about this about about a tag later on But but the a tag is the authoring tool accessibility guidelines This is an important initiative that Drupal has been a real leader in but but something you know both in terms of making the Making the authoring tool itself more accessible as well as trying to support authors in creating accessible content This is a two-part guideline and actually the first Drupal talk on a tag was on a tag 1.0 and William did that in Forget where I was it was Turkey or something was like it was was quite a Drupal con many many years ago So this is not a new thing in the Drupal community So Ck editor 5 is coming along. It's introduced a lot of great improvements in it It's a far more robust and dynamic interface But I think we'd we had built around we chose Ck editor 4 because of its accessibility and Some of the stuff with Ck editor 5 is has proven to be a lot less accessible than it wasn't Ck editor 4 and A lot of what we had hoped to be there There were there were guidelines and models for more accessible plugins for Ck editor that would make it easier for people to build Accessibility best practices into Ck editor 5 and those are things that that We're not seen yet in Ck editor 5 in terms of in terms of ways of implementing that so My hopes for Ck editor 5 and and I'm very glad that Ck editor is here and is sponsoring this conference I think it's a really excellent open-source tool and has a great model for this But but again, this is this is about how do we improve the authoring experience? And how do we support authors and one of the best ways is to go off and to focus in on the the the biggest Component of our authoring tool, which is Ck editor and and work on improving that so Ck editor 5 I Would like it to use the alley first Ck editor demo. So This is this is a model that was was put out by the University of Illinois in the States And it has a lot of really wonderful components in this that helped to To illustrate the How we can support authors and best practices So by the way, the the slides do have alt text and I will be trying to I will share the slides after the talk So that people can can see this and and can grab the links with the alt text as well as they as they'd like So this is this is a Great tool and in terms of some of the functionality that Ck editor 5 has. Oh, sorry other other wishes I get to see a kid or wishers other issues later But I really wish that there was a tool like either Sally or editorially that is is looking to to improve the helping authors sort of give a Checkpoint about what errors they're producing and to provide a Additional level of awareness to see that common accessibility errors aren't part of there aren't being created by authors There's also a great tool that Dear This is where it's like I should just have the notes There's another module that that uses the HTML 5 code sniffer and that isn't yet working for Drupal 10 yet but but you know, there's also trying to go off and to move from either a An HTML code sniffer based approach for evaluating it to axe at the moment There is no axe generate no there no axe tools that are working with whiz we get editors so if you're looking to To try and evaluate your site consistently and make sure that you're using either You know the dev pro tools with axe or using Google Lighthouse or for that matter Palin in axe that you have a consistent ability for people to use the same tool to evaluate The content that that can be useful. It's not that that that there is one tool to rule them all And axe isn't the best at everything, but it is a useful baseline in particularly since it avoids false positives They they're really trying to avoid the situation of reporting the issues that are not issues So jumping deeper into alley first So one of the things that this has and we should have brought a laser pointer Is you have the ability to go off and destroy us to pick your heading information and If you're in a heading one situation Then you can hit pick a heading two, but you can't jump headings I've selected in this a an item that is a heading two so I can pick a heading three or a heading two But I can't pick a heading four So that ability to force users to pick in a heading that is appropriate to the the content They're editing so make sure that that is doing that check beforehand So that we don't have to check it afterwards This is far far less expensive than paying a developer You know afterwards to try and fix in an error that an author produced because you know It showed up in the axe errors and suddenly it's there. It's the developers responsibility to fix this This is something that should be fixed at the source that the author is is only given choices that are semantic and relevant to them image properties like they've just done a really excellent job of of going in and Allowing authors to go off and to describe the alt text making that prominent. They've got spaces in there to go off and provide Long text or to tell you where the longer text is and to manage that Because sometimes you do have an image that that cannot fit within the alt text that you're you're you're trying to go off and create You don't want to be writing whole books and dropping it into the alt text I think that there are screen readers can handle like nearly 10,000 characters But that's not what you want to expose your users to you really want to be able to to to have a concise Information in your alt text and if you have alt if you have more complicated descriptions to put that in text so that anyone can benefit from that The stuff with decorative images is also quite useful If you're you know having a checkbox so that you can create a little Caption underneath it so that you can have a fig caption Implementation so that again, it's it just makes it easier for people to to do what they need to do and not to have to Create styles or go through extra efforts. Let's just try and make it easy for them to do the right thing Table properties again CK editor 5 gives you all of this powerful ability to go off and to do stuff with CK editor 5 in terms of creating super complicated tables that have really Heading levels at multiple levels and and and you can do a lot with it But for most websites and most tables you need either a Header a table header in the top or in the sidebar or both like that's it You don't need to go off and have the ability to have alternating tables or every cell be Defined as a table or not you just need Something that makes it clear that that the header or the sidebar is that will have the information that describes the content You're looking for Again the ability to have the caption in the summary built right in there So that that when somebody's creating the table at the beginning and they can they can think about oh, yeah I actually should describe this so that people know what information is in there how it's laid out And other contexts that make sense for it so that they can they can they can grok the information that's being delivered So they've also broken it down into the structure information. So the the top information is all around This is the structural semantic Buttons and the lower buttons are more about styling Or other content or other information So they wanted to make sure that the the structural information was put up and up at the top level And that that's how it was organized and managed Does it how many people remember word perfect Okay, a couple people are old enough to remember word perfect So word perfect had a really good tool that allowed you to go off and to to see what the formatting was So if you messed it up and you're trying to figure out why it looks the way it does You could show the the coding in word and you could see what it was structured in There's times with ck editor or other tools that that it's like well, why is there a space there? Why is that missing? What is it? What is the why does it look weird? And if you've copied and pasted information over it's easy sometimes to go off and out to to miss that There's weird information in there and So yeah, you can you can have the the head you can have the the the stylus or the Semantic information exposed in the page so that an author can look through it and say oh, yeah That makes sense. This is what I intended to do And this is how it looks so I like that and also who doesn't like referring to old technology Help is also really important We try to make the user interfaces as accessible and inner and intuitive as possible But at the end of the day you need to have have help text that explains what the tools are What are the features that you're providing and Explains in a way that that helps them understand because it's not going to be They're not going to intuitively know from the interface why we're doing the things we are it is useful to explain that Not just for the the alt text, but for everything so to have a comprehensive help text in the whiz we get it Or so that that this can be Explained for authors so that they can they can understand it without having to go to an external help page Or look it up on on Wikipedia or YouTube So yeah, seek editor is powerful, especially when it's combined with Drupal But I point people back to the issue queues There there are so many editor issues in seek yet in Drupal and there's a actually quite a few in a whole lot of accessibility issues in in seek editor, but but Almost all of the the accessibility issues in seek editor are also going to be accessibility problems in Drupal for our community So we need to be engaged in their community And they should be involved in our community because we are a significant part of their community And it's a useful to to help us work with them to try and Work with our issues and match these issues to see if we can find ways to push best practices forward for everyone And I think that there's there's a really good opportunity there So it certainly is possible to line up seek editor or Drupal 10 so that it looks like essentially like the seek editor Demo you can line up the buttons well enough There's there are things like many people don't know that there's a Language of parts component to to Drupal since Drupal 8. There's the ability to To if you have like a phrase like je ne sais quoi In an English part in English page you put in je ne sais quoi in that you should be trying to Explain to a screen reader that that's not English The screen reader will know because you know frankly, that's a commonly used word in English And it will have a translation that probably works. Okay, at least as good as my French but the the I think that the game we can we can try and structure this so that That we make it as easy as possible for people to do the right thing Which means we know even if you're dealing with a Model-ingual website that there's going to be often pieces where people will use fragments of other languages Whether that's Spanish in the States or whether that's fragments of English here in France That's that's something that that is a big part of how How websites are being built and and as content site builders We don't necessarily reflect on on what the content is going to be and when people are trying to build content often They will say oh I don't need to have I just need a single a single language website That's all I need and so I just want to need to work in whatever language. I'm building it and that's great But we need to also say your authors probably are writing content That's in other languages already and that we need to find ways to support that so that that that authors who are writing Fragments of code in other languages whether it's because you know, yeah, that that that is something that is is is covered and Also, just just for reference I'm pretty sure that that that when you're you're looking at language of parts that if you've got a single word That's in another language That that doesn't need to be wrapped in a span or or manage specifically because screen readers There's often a single English word is used in other languages It's more for phrases that is important than single words And there's a lot of there's been a lot of discussion about that It was I just wanted to highlight the The use of of the the the language elements in in Drupal 10 Where you can see the that that it is defined in French and again that the lighting in this is a bit It's probably hard for people to see that the stuff that the the content that On the screen, but it's like the gray is probably a bit hard for people to see but but the agenda say qua is in in French you can see that that is in is is defined in a separate language And in in Ali first all he did was italicize it They didn't actually do quite as nicely as what what is being done right now in Drupal 10 But the code itself is still the same. There's a a span with a language tag attached to that So Two years ago three years ago we did a presentation at Drupalcon Europe that was all virtual and it was with me and Susanna Lauren Suzanne's with the with funka and we presented about the we for author clusters project and You can go off and see that presentation because it's online with all the other so I'm not going to repeat it too much but the summary of that study is was partly that That we We tried to go off and and think about what are the elements that we'd want to go off and address to help the European Union address the the challenge of meeting the web accessibility directive and for that matter the European Accessibility Act and The one of the challenges was it was looking at tables and so there's a whole sort of best practice It's that's built in around how to create Tables for for that There's also the change language feature and and how to go off and to manage that and Drupal's done quite Nicely on that aside from not making it a default which it should be There's also quite an exploration around text alternatives and how to to implement that and one of the great things about this particular project was that we we actually engaged with authors and we we actually brought authors in to evaluate the patterns that were created to get their feedback and then improve that and There have been usability studies in Drupal not many but some And those are great and really important There's even being some with people with disabilities again, I think just one that I know of But that's that's important and hopefully we'll see more of those But the studies with authors are are also really important Because it's a a really critical case study, especially if we want them to think about how are they creating more accessible content and so Funka didn't do this for for Drupal They did it for a generic system that they've set up that was tested and evaluated But it's still useful to go off and reflect and the findings that they came from the study are all public as well So that's that's useful You know documentation trying to make sure that the documentation of the content is is there probably trying to go off and and highlight things that are That where there's overlap where different different people from either the the North American side or the The the European side are coming to the same conclusions Live testing that was another thing that was it was coming up with how to try and make sure that you're providing authors with that real-time Feedback just just like spellcheck right like how many people would would care to spellcheck their documents If you had to wait two weeks after you wrote the document to get the report, right? That's not the way we're used to dealing with it We need to have immediate feedback when we're creating the content to know where the errors are if we're going to correct them and Learn from them if we don't have that immediate feedback. We're not going to we're not going to We're not going to care and it's going to be really difficult to go off and overcome the problems So common issues between the alley first and we for authors one Yeah tables need to be easy to create with with headers and captions that's that's A an important part of this we can't We can't give people a complicated user interface for the most and give them the most flexibility We each gives them something that that limits the most popular options and and presents that to them The support for the wk wk language of parts is another one Interfaces image interfaces need to be carefully thought through And support authors in producing more accessible content There needs to be better documentation explaining the features and the whiz wig And there needs to be some automated checking to support authors There's other missing bits too and This is supposed to show up afterwards. This is an animation that's supposed to come after I hit clicks So just don't see the bottom half in the part with the veneer at benoit So missing bits Check if the author could break up the text into headings That'd be lovely to go off and to see if if somebody's creating a wall of text with no breaks in it It'd be lovely to go off and provide a suggestion that says hey, this is something that you might consider improving your text by by breaking it up and adding some some Some headings involved in that Creating anchor links and if that matter for the creation of anchor links and the links to anchor links Both of those can be useful of being spending a bit much a bit of time doing work with government agencies and governments like to paste the whole You know 900 page documents into a single html page and and Then do anchor links to them and it's it's a if they do anchor links generally They just dump it in with no anchor links, but anchor links are really useful if they're done correctly So let's support that to make that happen Broken link checking It's a big problem Also plain language checking we need to be able to Help support our authors in creating more simple content People think that writing plain language is is really Simple and easy, but it really isn't it's it's it's actually really hard and takes a lot of work to create that plain language So how do we try and Structure it so that we can support our authors whether that's including a flash Kincaid score in the page or doing other elements to to help inform authors about where where the accessibility challenges might be or where the Where the the more complicated language and more complicated information might be held and and it's It's so important for people to have a plain language language implementation, particularly if you're m a Trying to go and if you're a government agency or a university you're trying to go off and create information That is is structured for the entire population Or for that matter if you just want to sell stuff if you want to sell stuff to the most you know to the average Just to as many people as possible having it be accessible to people who who might be Who might be able to read English or French, but maybe it's not their first language maybe it's their third or fourth language and They have trouble with more complex verbs because they've got three or four other languages that they're keeping track in their mind, right? Maybe it's about Making it simple so that google translates for those people who don't speak the language at all Has a better chance of getting the phrases correct in the in when they're using google translate to move the information around Again, that's something that that doesn't take a lot of effort to do But it does take effort and it's something that we haven't really been being looking at at supporting authors and in when they're creating that content In terms of things that we might actually have some solutions to coming fairly shortly We're working on a project right now that may actually be able to have a solution for both the the empty headings and links So to try and check to see that that isn't a problem To check that duplicate IDs are are are caught. So again, that that isn't a problem Duplicate IDs are less of an issue in wk 2.2 onwards since parsing errors are no longer Um They're no longer as serious as they were their parsing errors are only an issue if they cause a functional problem But still it's good not to have duplicate IDs in in a single page And also the the the more important one is is alt text checking All of these automated tools they just check to see whether or not there is alt text They don't check to see if the alt text is any good Now it could be that the image is does actually say Image 1 2 3 4 5 dot jpeg that's possible And maybe that is the best jpeg or the best alt text that you could use for an image But generally it isn't like almost always you're going to have a situation where if you're you have a dot extension In your text that that is going to be A bad file name that was automatically uploaded For that matter image of or no like we know that there's all kinds of it's quite funny to actually look at the The to scan an entire page with something like the screaming frog page checker and to pull out the alt text And then to have a spreadsheet of all of the alt text without the images And then to say oh What what were they what was it? What was this this this supposed to be describing? What is what is somebody without when you don't you take the image away from the content? And you take the alt text that an author puts in and try and Just look at that to have some sense of what a blind user would be seeing and it's It's really bad And what I would would love to actually see is somebody to go off and to take that alt text and then pump it into a AI tool to try and draw the bad image so that we can again provide a way to to give that immediate bad feedback To people to say is this what you meant to describe this? I mean again, it doesn't need to be a A complete image, but there should be some facsimile supporting the Not just the physical object but the the emotions the feeling behind that image Why did you add that image and how is this image improving your content because that's That's a big part of it. You're you're adding images because it's supposed to add something to your content. It's not just filler It should be adding content. So how do we try and push? Push the authors to to be thinking about that and thinking about how they're describing it So they're actually producing better better content moving forward Anyways, we might have a solution on this that that that may end up going up on on Drupal.org In which case you'll hear from it, but hear from me about it, but But it's not there yet Also wanted to touch on the web a million which is a has everyone here heard of the web a million? Okay, there's two or three people who've heard of it. Okay So it's it's a really good study that that a great group called web aim goes off and produces every year and they have since 2019 Where they they scan the home page is the top million web pit sites and they reveal the the accessibility errors of those sites And and give some some information with the wave tool with the wave toolbar essentially they give us an analysis of that and then they they give us feedback and say oh Government websites are this much or that much these content management systems are this or that And it's it's quite interesting to go off and to see the stats on this and and Drupal's done usually quite well on accessibility Within the the web a million But but they have six key areas that that in 2023 were the most common errors one was low contrast text The other is missing alternative text for images Missing image links missing input form labels empty buttons and missing document language And I tried to sort of break this down to say well, what are the elements that are the responsibilities for the authors? And no the the frame is you know the the the contrast text is responsibility of the frame But ah the missing alternative text images like that's responsibility for the author Empty links that's responsibility for the author. Oh the other ones are all responsibility for the editor but um It's a I wanted to to highlight that there are some key elements within this this error that we can improve upon If we supported authors more effectively um Also, I want to touch a little bit about a iml And uh, yeah, there there's a number of the solutions out there that are are coming out and they're interesting And a lot of times they're they're proposed to go off and replace human effort So just just go off it We don't have to worry about all text anymore because chrome will go off and automatically translate the the images for for blind users So really all text is passé because we've got a bot taking care of that like people will say that um, and It's it's it's really missing an important part of the problem because you know Communication is about an author communicating an idea to a user. It's not about Can you as quickly as possible describe the image that's in the box? If you have an image that's in your webpage, that's great But really it should that image should be understood in context Why did you choose that image again? You don't need to explain why you chose the image in the alt text But there should be a relationship between the the content that you've written And the alt text that you've you've written for that and the image you've chosen right like there should be an association between those and and often with these machine language I've yet to see a machine language tool that will go off and look at the image and then look at the The the text that is written and then analyze that to produce alt text to explain why the author chose that image to insert That that image or to why the author chose to choose to put that image in that place in the content for the text And it might work for I mean, yeah, there's there's places where it might work just fine It is getting better and better every day, but it might work for only You know 80 of the content at best So what about if there's content that's critical to your users? What if there's other information like what how do we try and not serve? Aim for a low bar, but try and improve it and find ways that we can actually provide better content Not just a representative sample of what that image is but really try and improve Give the tools that authors need to to to improve the content And there's actually a Drupal module I wanted to highlight Which is Drupal's automatic alternative text module Which does actually have a suggestion function built into it So if you're if you're looking for ai implementations and support for this This will actually give you the ability to to add a an ai interface to your your To your alt text that you can select that will give the author the ability to select the box And then fill in the form And and it'll it'll provide a sample for the alt text, which then the author can edit So they're not looking with a blank blank slate. It's actually looking at ways to to give them something to react to Because that's it's often easier for an editor to edit content than it is for them to go into to write With no no reference or no context around that And the other challenge with with large language models in ai is that they're very often going to repeat the same problems that That we've had in the past They're they're all built around learning from what What was already being written what has already been generated So a lot of the a lot of people with disabilities are already excluded in our society Whether that's in representation in photos whether that's in representation in In our stories or a context like a lot of a lot of cases people disabilities are just not are not visible And and if we do not involve people with disabilities in the in the creation of these large language models and other ai We're going to be repeating a lot of the problems that we're seeing again so so we don't want to just simply go off and You know hope that some ai is going to solve this problem and wish it away because it isn't going to work It will just help perpetuate the problem or differentiate the problems unless we're very careful in how we go off and address this and and focus more on Intelligence augmented Which is uh, you know finding ways to support authors Using ai and not not finding ways to replace them. We don't want to replace human effort We want to make we want to improve human effort and find ways so that humans are able to produce Better content and more meaningful content More effectively more quickly Rather than than just replacing them That robot is thanks to robo hash, which is a fun little program where you basically type in any text And it'll create a a unique robot for your text. So it's it's quite interesting for For yeah Creating the law free robots I did mention author a tag at the beginning the authoring tool accessibility guidelines Wanted to just touch on the high level points of that before the end of the session. We want to make sure that the the Production of content is is is as accessible as possible. So Any fully automated processes should produce accessible content Authors are supported in producing accessible content authors are supported in improving accessibility of existing content and authors provide Authoring tools provide promote and integrate their accessibility features So those are some of the elements that w cake has come up with with with their a tag tool Also wanted to touch on sustainability because we are in a climate crisis if you haven't noticed the the weather is a lot warmer than it should be And Performant web pages are beneficial for people with disabilities and everyone else too. So you know a lot of times people with disabilities have They can't necessarily afford the the because it's because employment is so high for people disabilities They can't always afford the the latest tools and the fastest bandwidth So there's a huge effort to try and Reduce if we improve tools for people with disabilities or improved performance It'll help a lot of people with disabilities because they're more likely to have older technology Reducing image size is also quite an important thing There's lots of modern image image formats out there that will make images load more quickly SVG is a Wonderful amazing tool. I didn't actually mention it here, but SVGs you can you can build so many semantic in that interactive web web Documents with SVGs It's really quite a wonderful place to explore and we should be doing more to support that Because it's it's a really excellent tool It's a dangerous tool to upload though because you can embed javascript within svg files, which again is a security problem So it's like everything. There's two steps forward one step back Another element that that's important for sustainability is removing rot or redundant obsolete trivial content And again, if you have better or organized content, it'll be easier for everyone to find it That includes people with disabilities So trying to make sure that you've you've thought through and organize your content in a way that allows for People to find the information they need as quickly as possible and then get on with their lives. That's a really important part I also think it's it's useful to start marking user journeys I don't think we do this in Drupal. I don't think there's any way to mark a user journey But but if we have we can see we can talk about user journeys We can evaluate them within our our analytics tools But we don't necessarily have a way Within a module to go up and say we expect users are going to take on this journey or this journey or this journey And how do we test that in our framework so that we can run? An automated test of these five URLs that are used for going from a to b to c Before they get to the the final product, whatever that is and I think we can do more on that And yeah, I'm happy to answer any questions if the if people have time Any questions? Yes um, so rot is is um It's like a government web pages that have information was added six years ago that was never updated But the person who wrote the content is no longer there And so it's going to stay there forever And the content is going to get moved from one system to the next system to the next system because Nobody is bothering to do a content audit to realize that nobody's actually looking at that content So it's a it's a fairly common process in in uh in content content design within So um ck editor five is in uh drupal 10. So that's that's already there I I think that we're going to continue um like all of our embedded packages We're going to continue upgrading with with the the tools that we've been using And it may or not may or may not be part of a like it'll be part of a minor release rather than something like symphony Which would be a a major release, but but it'll be tied time to the release cycle um Do you had a question back there? Oh And it did a good job Oh That's right the the question was um Is is ck editor five going to be um upgrade? What is the upgrade path for drupal and ck editor five from where it is right now? Will we need to do upgrade to five point one? Or um, you know with five point two how how was that going to happen with drupal? I just basically assumed it was going to be similar to what it was there before