 Well, hello everybody. Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, whatever time of day it is for you. Very, very early in the morning, I know, for Josh. Thanks so much for coming for our next installment. I think we're up to the fifth episode of the Kubernetes by example insider show where we talk to people about kind of their involvement in Kubernetes and to try to get a sense of, you know, as you've probably heard me say before, getting the philosophy behind it. A piece of software often helps understanding where you can predict it, what kinds of things should happen, where it's going to go in the future. And so we try to give you some of those insights into the software and particularly Kubernetes so that you can be kind of a little bit more well rounded in understanding of that application and where you might want to use it or deploy it or how you should go about it and what you think will be happening in the future. So Josh, thanks for being on the show with me. You know, we know you're deeply involved in the Kubernetes community. Yeah. Yeah. Happy to be here. And I thought it would be fun. We have a terrific guest on today, Savita, who has his fresh off of being release team lead for Kubernetes, a job that I had a year and a half, two years ago. So it'll be a fun interview. And by way of background, just to your, you know, I know you're a Red Hat employee and you're involved in the community's, you know, kind of ecosystem, but what exactly is your role there for Red Hat? Well, for Red Hat, I am the Kubernetes community manager. So Kubernetes is a really big project. And so in addition to having lots of engineers working on it. Like easily a couple hundred at Red Hat. We also try to assign some people to be effectively project management staff. Because, you know, a project with thousands of contributors, you actually need people doing management things. And so that's what I do for Red Hat. Awesome. Yeah. From Kubernetes perspective, I'm on the contributor experience. It's like these days, which means helping manage all of Kubernetes contributors, particularly around some for mentoring programs. Right. So yeah, I also just also I realized I didn't really introduce myself either. You know, I'm Langley White. I'm actually currently a faculty member over at Boston University in the Computing and Data Science faculty. And where we're trying to build a program that is a little bit more practice oriented. And specifically I'm teaching data science and some software engineering. So, you know, but to get right into it, Mina, we'd like to welcome you on the show as usual. And if you could drop in and maybe give us, you know, what's been going on since the last time we did the show, you know, we're always excited to hear kind of the current news. And you're our, you know, news person. Hello. Hi, everyone. Hi, Langdon. Hi, Josh. This was a very eventful month for the Kubernetes and open source community. We've had three pretty cool events. We had the CNCF flagship conference QCon in Los Angeles between October 11th and 15th. We had Linux Foundation's open source summit in Seattle from September 27th to the 30th. And then we had all things open in Raleigh from October 17th to the 19th. We do have some recaps of these events. So if you guys are interested in hearing more about what was talked about, definitely check out KBE News. You'll be able to find a couple articles there to tell you. So we have a couple highlights, obviously from the past month, as we always do. We have the Kubernetes object storage best practices that we wanted to share with you. This is a technical article from more TV that explains why and how object storage is important and how to do that. Like Kubernetes itself, the underlying object storage should be distributed, decoupled, declarative and immutable, he says. And then we have an article that tells us why and how to deploy Kubernetes on bare metal and why that might be important. The recent CNCF survey reveals that containers are increasingly used in production with about 92% of respondents reporting using containers in production environments up from 84% in 2019 and 300% from 2016. As the most popular orchestration tool, Kubernetes are driving the container revolution, providing portability and repeatability. They help organizations automate infrastructure management tasks and modernize their IT. Although Kubernetes is often associated with the public cloud, it's increasingly deployed in dedicated environments. There are a number of use cases for Kubernetes and there are specific benefits to deploying it on bare metal. This article that we wanted to highlight identifies those use cases for Kubernetes, the benefits of deploying Kubernetes on bare metal and actually how to do it. And then we have Rick Spencer, the vice president of platform at influx data talk about the four expert level things he wished he'd known about Kubernetes. These are one cloud native applications and binaries are universes apart to there are more metrics than you'll ever be able to handle three set up synthetic monitoring and for multi cloud continuous delivery is hard. And as always, I will drop in the links to all of these articles so you can go ahead and read more. And then if you're still getting confused by technical Kubernetes terminology, you can go and check out common Kubernetes terminology terminology you should know. I still get confused about them. So this was an article that really, really helped me actually. And this list of Kubernetes terminology can prepare you to work with Kubernetes and help you better understand how exactly this container management platform functions. And then we actually have an important CNCF announcement to bring to you. There's now an entry level Kubernetes certification to help advance cloud careers. The Linux Foundation and the CNCF which built sustainable ecosystem for cloud native software have announced the Kubernetes and cloud native associate exam is now in beta testing. This certification is expected to be generally available by the end of the year. And this exam is intended to demonstrate this knowledge including how to deploy an application using basic kubectl commands, the architecture of Kubernetes understanding the cloud native landscape and projects and understanding the principles of cloud native security. Then we have a couple of product announcement from AWS and Google. Recently AWS announced the general availability of Amazon managed service for Prometheus, a Prometheus compatible monitoring service for container infrastructure and application metrics for containers. And then recently Google announced Google distributed cloud, a set of hardware and software solutions to extend Google infrastructure to the edge and into customer data centers. Again, we'll be dropping in all of these links for your reference. Feel free to always check us out on KBE news back to you Langdon and Josh. Thanks so much Mina. Yeah, the terminology article there in particular sounds like my bag of chips. I have a very hard time kind of keeping all the terminology straight, not just for Kubernetes but kind of where it crosses over into lots of other technologies. So as always, we really appreciate you doing the news. You know, the other thing I would kind of mentioned too is there was a great kind of Twitter discussion about, you know, the kind of the depths of Kubernetes that was an interesting thing to follow from another terminology perspective. If I find it while we're chatting, I'll post a link but I can't remember where it is off top of my head. So that's not very helpful. So Josh, I think you've known Savita for a while and maybe introduce her to the show as our guest for this episode of the KBE Insider. Hey, Savita is a senior engineer at Red Hat, very recently at Red Hat, which we'll talk about. I is slightly less recently. The release lead for the Kubernetes 1.22 release has been contributing to Kubernetes for at least two years. Longer than that? How long have you been contributing to Kubernetes? So I have been contributing to the Kubernetes for the past two years that I can think of. I think since 2018, KubeCon Seattle, that's when I got all the idea of how to get started, where to get started. And as everyone, I learned that out. SIG release for about like six months. And then I started with SIG docs and there was a new part from SIG Contributex called IssueTriage mentoring going on. So that's where I got to meet like so many amazing people. Bring Markey and so many more first. And yeah, so that's how I got started. That's awesome. Although I will say if it was 2018, that's pushing three years at this point. I know we're all old now, but you know, yeah. So yeah, that's pretty awesome. Was that your first kind of foray into open source in general? Or had you been involved in open source projects before that? That was my first ever. Nothing like starting small. Starting small. Talk about talking small, right? Starting from small, right? Yeah. So a little bit background. I got super interested in the community because I was actually doing a project, a work project. And then I picked up communities to be the platform later for my platform that I was creating. And I stumbled upon the community where I was getting a lot of help from the Slack channel. So I just wanted to give back. That's how everything started. My journey started because of all the amazing warm people in the community. I mean, I am in love with communities project. If anyone can love a project, I would. I mean, you can say that. But the thing that keeps me going is the people. So you came from that welcome to the release team. So how did you end up joining the release team? Tell us all because a lot of our audience maybe has heard of the Kubernetes release team, but don't actually know how it works. So how did you end up joining the release team? Of course. Back to 2018, KubeCon, right? So fairings and six contributors, country banks. I always think it's six contributor experience. And then six country banks, I go back and forth, sorry for that. So six country banks organized the speed mentoring session. So I went to that because I wanted to give back and I didn't know where to start. And I attended their maintenance track session. And then they were like, yeah, we see new cases sitting on the other side of the. So it was like in person. And there were like two columns. And one column had all the usual active contributors. And the other one had all the new people sitting there shy and everything. I was one of them. And they were like, why don't you just come up for the mentoring sessions? Speed mentoring, we have it. I went there and there were like a lot of mentors who talked to you and gave advice on how to get started. Something that stuck to me was Siguris. I think it's Maria. I forgot her last name, sorry about that. So they were a part of Siguris team, release team then. And then she told like, you can go and explore this particular release team as a project because it gives an idea into various other portions of communities. It's like very new contributor friendly and everything. So I came back. I attended the meetings, like I said, diligently. Still feeling overall. And I did apply twice. 1.14 and 1.15. I got this nice, nice. I didn't get selected, but I appreciate that someone who was leading was so nice, kind enough to reach out to me and say, hey, we do have other like experienced or like we have made our pick better luck next time. Right. So then I took a break and I did my focus on the six entry banks and think docs. My first PR was to fix a photo for that was the first one. And then I did a lot of work there. I reapplied after coupon San Diego. That was for 1.18, I think so that so that's when I got selected to be a shadow for the docs team. And then I led docs, docs team for the release of 1.19. And then for 1.20 and 21, I was a release lead shadow. And I even show you got the lead 1.22. So wait, so let's talk a little bit about the docs team. So the docs team for the release is separate from Kubernetes, SIG docs, the main docs team. Yeah, you're right. So this one, the one that is the one that is a part of the release team focuses on the features and the deprecations and everything that enhancements and goes into into the particular release. So it's like a liaison. For say you just talk to the enhancement owner and make sure that the documentation gets the website documentation gets updated. And updating with accordingly to their feature. And it also like goes into the release, like we just don't ship the feature without the documentation or updating it. It's more like a facilitation and you also get to review whatever they add. It gives a lot of opportunities. But the main thing that I see it as like a be the person who helps the enhancement owners to get the documentation updated. So you could call it like a little bit of place on between the CG release and think docs too, because you go to the thing docs and update them on the progress of the release, what is going on, what they can expect. And the thing docs folks are really champs because we tell them that hey, the deadline is coming up and you're going to get a lot of reviews and guess what they get like 30 40 CR reviews in like two days and they have to complete it and they do it every single time. So extra shout out to them. Yeah, that's the the run up to a release for for I think most software projects tend to have a little bit of challenge like that. You know, they even they even get nicknames. I would be curious to know like so how do you manage kind of keeping track of what actually is going to land. You know, obviously, you know, there's, you know, let's say, right, there's a pipeline of 30 things that we think is going to land in this particular version. But you know, 25 of them are actually making it because, you know, those PRs don't get accepted or they need more review or they more time. Do you feel like the the Kubernetes community tends to follow a model of will release it when we're ready? Or do you think it tends to follow more of the will delay an enhancement or a, you know, a feature or whatever until the next revision rather than missing a date? You know, because there's there's definitely good things and bad things about both choices. I'm just curious how you feel the Kubernetes community tends to favor. So as Josh and everyone mentioned, the project itself is like super big and which means that there are like a lot of contributors and a lot of amazing new ideas. So I would say it's a mix of both. So we do have a process, the release team has a great process on tracking what goes into like it. There is a period where the thing is a special interest group and it's like, think it like a verticals within the Kubernetes core components or like Kubernetes ecosystem. So the chairs opt in for what features they want or they want they are forcing that is going to the release. So that gives us an idea that gives a release team an idea of the list of things. So we keep track of them and we gently nudge them and I want to buy gently. I mean that every week when closer to the deadline, it's almost every day and I am so sorry for that. But that needs to be done. So so that we can get the features and we don't want the people who work really hard and the people who are expecting these things would be available in those three weeks to wait for another release. And we also a little bit stick to it. So we do all these nudges and we help facilitate things and there are periods where you can ask for exceptions telling that I'll be like five days late. And this is the reason I will be like five days late. And if it's valid we let them but if they miss all these things, the feature gets kicked out of the release. Unless and until it's a very critical bug fix or like it's a very critical security issue or something like that that goes later after the code freeze. But you know code freeze has been a very big hot topic right now because the period has been extended to one month. Ish and there's been talk and I think Josh knows a lot about it. So it has to wait. So if you missed that there are a couple of deadlines and if you missed that it has to just wait for the next week, which is like pushes it out by another four months. So I tell you it's a mix of both. Yeah, I like I mean personally I generally prefer the kind of train model right was often what it's referred to is where you know if you don't make it on the train you just wait for the next train. And you know as you kind of do the releases because I think it gives a lot more reliability to the overall project and for kind of the consumers of the project. But as you say there are exceptions right for security or you know some particular bug fix etc. So that's yeah that's interesting. I think that's helpful to kind of know. I did want to ask both of you because I'm kind of jealous about KubeCon because I was teaching classes so as a result I was not able to go. But you know I had planned to so I'm really curious what was you know what would you say and I'm kind of kind of asked both of you. Maybe something to start what would you say was kind of your biggest benefit benefit positive whatever that of kind of being there in person. You know or of the conference itself first and then I'm going to ask you in a few minutes about like what are the top two talks or something that I should go back and watch on rerun. But start with the first one and then I'll ask Josh and then we'll come back. Sure so for me this time especially is all about my friends and the community who I have worked with for the past one and a half years. They got me through pandemic so the release team 1.19 was the longest release for six months was because the pandemic we wanted to adjust the whole bond. Yeah I was going to say right speaking of the train that was the one miss train right. Is that we had two years of on time Kubernetes releases and then COVID hit. Yeah so so I relied on becoming a Kubernetes community a lot to just get through the pandemic. I look forward to the meeting but I look forward to seeing my friends so for me it was all meeting people I just gave me a lot of happiness just by meeting them. Especially in this cube kind if someone asked me what you did it's like I met all my friends I mean I missed a few of them who couldn't make it I'm hoping that I would get to see them soon. But whoever made it I really loved meeting them and the one thing that gave me another happy moment is that I like Josh mentioned I recently joined Red Hat right. My teams awesome and they are all in rally and I haven't met them in person I'm looking forward to you. And I feel welcomed being a part of Red Hat but being there and meeting more people and when they said like I got my first swag cap and t-shirt and I love stickers I got a lot of stickers that meeting them meeting more Red Haters made me feel like really really. Like oh I belong here you know the sense of belonging I got that so these are the two things that like for me. I'm just curious what percentage would you say of the people you met there was the first time you met them in person. Ballpark obviously. I want to say like 80 percent. Yeah that's kind of I was wondering yeah that's yeah it's crazy I was just thinking about it like you know I did a Twitch show for like a year and a half or something with Chris Short. I still have never met him in person you know so it's been a very weird experience this whole like pandemic thing obviously as well as all of the actual pandemic sickness and all that jazz but this just how our lives have so much changed. So Josh what about you what was the what do you feel like the biggest thing was. It was actually the same thing I think to agree with me here is is the funny thing is because it was a hybrid conference because it was split between the people who were doing the online conference the people in the person conference with a much smaller in person crowd. This Kubecon you know for the in person felt a lot like. Kubecon Seattle maybe even Kubecon Seattle the first time in terms of size yeah and sort of disproportionately full time contributors were there because obviously they had the bigger incentive to make it work to show up. And so it I had to spend a lot more time talking to people in depth and seeing the people that that you know we work with on the project which was super nice. I mean Kubecon San Diego in 2019 was very exciting. But it was also kind of a circus experience in terms of there was constantly things going on and you could almost not focus on anything. So, so I mean this is super nice because all these people that I've spent. I mean, I was seeing a lot of people that I have seen before in person but I haven't seen for two years in person right. So I got to see all these people again for the first time in two years. Sadly not anybody who had to, you know come in across an ocean because that wasn't really possible. But I got to see all these people I hadn't seen in two years spend some actual time with them. Like for example we were going to have the contributor summit. On Monday realized we weren't going to have enough people to do the usual sort of multi session multi room thing that we had done for the last couple of in person Kubecons. And decided to just make it a full day work session. And it was actually kind of nice we got a bunch of stuff sort of hammered out for contributor documentation main documentation then network folks worked on a bunch of things. So it was nice from that perspective and for some of the new projects I was able to actually learn something about them because what's happened for the last Kubecons is the conference is so distracting that you actually do your learning after the conference. You're like, Oh, that looks really interesting. I'm going to watch the recording of the video after the conference so I can actually find out what it was about. And this time I was actually able to sit in a room for an hour and find out what the pixie project was and what Sigstore was and those things that I actually had some idea of what was going on with it. So I realized that the Linux Foundation will want us to go back to having 15,000 people in person. And of course 15,000 people want to show up. But I actually kind of liked having the smaller in person Kubecon. So shameless plug, of course, if you want to know more about the Sigstore project, you can watch episode three of this show where we interviewed one of the leads. So, yeah, so kind of brings that I mean, it's kind of all I can think of and I'm not sure that the comparison is completely apt, but it's kind of like seeing a band in a club, right, versus an arena. You know, that kind of much more intimate experience has it's a very different experience, not necessarily a bad one, like one isn't necessarily better or worse than the other, but the takeaway is quite different. So, you know, it's kind of interesting, you know, like, I go to a lot of the Fedora ones, you know, like the Fedora developer conferences, whatever they tend to be smaller, right? But then, you know, you have Oskon, right, or you have, you know, what used to be called Linuxcon. So those are the very different experience. So the the hallway track is always nice. And just for anyone on there, you know, the hallway track is the jokingly, you know, named when you are not really attending a lot of the sessions, but instead are able to talk to people as you know, either people you've worked with before new people to get new ideas. Because if you have a bunch of people in the same room kind of thinking about the same thing, sometimes new ideas, new perspectives come up, and it can be a lot of fun. So is there anything that either of you would recommend that we definitely go back and watch? And obviously, shameless plug again, Savita, I believe you gave a talk. So we'll talk about that in a minute. But, you know, obviously we should recommend that one. But is there anything else that you would recommend that people go back and check out? Either one of you is totally fine. So for me, I have a bunch of security docs that I want to catch up on. I don't remember the name. I just remember the speaker's name. So I was going to go search by that one was like Brad Jason. I think I'm saying is the last name, right? If not, I'm sorry, Brad. And by Ian Co-Water. And the other one is like by Tabby Sable and Ellen Carp. I think I'm saying the name, right? I'm so sorry, Ellen. So these two are the talks I want to watch. And I really love one of the keynotes. I mean, all the keynotes were amazing, inspiring, inspiring. And one thing that I really enjoyed was Kastlin Fields keynote because I relate a lot to art and she had used her own art in the keynote and that was educational and also fun at the same time. And I had only enjoyed it personally because I really loved seeing those art and how to relate and how DNS is always a pain. So that was mine. To be honest, I spent a lot of time focusing on people then talk. So I'm hoping to catch up later. So sorry, I'm not of big help here. I thought that was interesting. I mean, so, you know, kind of there are definitely some of the security talks you thought were interesting. The keynotes, I'm like the opposite of your typical jaded conference goer in that I actually love keynotes, which I think is kind of an unusual thing. But they always like almost every time it's they really inspire me to, you know, kind of re-engage with a project or, you know, whatever, for whatever conference it is. So yeah, I really appreciate them as well. I was actually going to ask you, but we'll sidebar for a second. Josh, is there anything else you can recommend or should we kind of move on? Yeah, I mean, I would say the big, big theme for this last KubeCon was security, both in the sense of stuff like network security and in the sense of software, bill of materials, et cetera, secure pipeline. And so there's a lot, a lot of stuff with that because post solar winds everybody, every company within the Kubernetes ecosystem has spent time in the last year working on stuff. And a lot of that stuff got presented at this KubeCon, maybe all that stuff. And so I think it's actually worth picking up some selection of those talks to understand what's coming. Because a lot of this stuff like S-bomb, et cetera, that was looked at as kind of optional and nice to have is now going to be required, which means if you're working within Cloud Native, this is going to be like in production, this is going to be something that you now need to worry about. Right. And then within Kubernetes itself, we're like, okay, we're going to attach all of these annotations to all of our objects as required. And that's going to happen like in the next release. So it's going to be a thing for everybody. And as usual, there's some new things presented. I personally was very interested in the Pixi project simply because it's an attempt to apply machine learning to metrics. One of the things I've been saying since my database administrator days is that we need more intelligent metrics, not more metrics. Right. That just giving us more data does not necessarily help operators. Right. Yeah, I talked a while back with a guy who ran one of those kinds of companies. And their idea basically was, it's like you can kind of set a baseline, but you need some sort of like AI or ML or whatever to kind of modify the baseline over time to either kind of go up, go down, whatever, to make it so that the spikes aren't looking like they're different from the baseline when the baseline is what's actually changed. Right. And doing that is kind of with hard-coded config files is difficult at best. Right. So yeah, I totally agree. Yeah, so that's cool. And beyond that, whatever people's focus is within the Universal Cloud Native, I'm pretty sure you can find at least one talk. I mean, another big thing is KubeCon includes this whole maintainer track, which is the various Kubernetes SIGs, the various projects within the CNCF presenting their something they're currently working on so that people can know how to get involved in that sort of thing. And so like if, for example, you're in the position that Savita was in two years ago looking for your way into this whole ecosystem as a contributor, take a look at that track because a lot of those talks end up with a and here's where we need help. Right, right. Yeah, it's funny. I was also thinking when both of you kind of were focused on kind of supply chain and security, you know, there's kind of a common mantra right now, right of, you know, every company is becoming a software company. Maybe maybe the caveat to that or the addition to that will be, you know, with any with, you know, fingers crossed will be every company is also starting to become a security company. You know, I'm not sure I can quite hold my breath yet, but you know, it's definitely trending in the right direction, I think. So that's good. So Savita, what was the talk that you gave at KubeCon this year? So I had one maintainer track session that is for SIG security. I helped lead one of these a project, SIG security documentation. And if you're looking for contributing, please stop by. We are looking for a lot of new contributors and I have got a lot of ideas and I welcome everyone's ideas so we can learn together. That is the biggest thing for me there. So that was one of the sessions. And the other one was a virtual session and that was a student track session. It was introduction to open source OSS 101. I think Langdon will appreciate that OSS 101 label there. So that was all about like how students can get onboarded into this cloud native space. And we talked a little bit about the imposter syndrome, which projects to choose and how it can help your career and the experience and stuff like that. So that was my other session. Oh, that's cool. Yeah, I'll definitely find that one and at least pinch it to my students. It can be difficult. But yeah, that's definitely interesting. So is SIG security what you're going to be working on for the immediate future? Yes. I am also trying to get back to SIG KubeCon. I've been working on quite a few PRs. And when Josh said that we hashed out a few things and I was like, uh-oh. I have something in my laptop that I haven't committed back. That was a good reminder. Thank you. So yeah, these are the two things that I want to focus on. So I'm giving myself a break until Christmas so that I can start fresh next year. Next year, getting back to KubeCon. I got a lot really burned out last year and this year. So this is my time. So I'm trying to make myself like happy, take care of myself so that I can do better. So yeah, SIG security and KubeCon is something that I want to start contributing back. That's cool. Yeah, I think those are two important areas of the project. I did want to ask you and you alluded to it talking about the keynotes. Where does your Twitter handle come from as Coffee Art Girl? Do you have an art background? I do. I love art. Art is a part of everything that I do. There was a time that I started painting with coffee. So I mixed up instant coffee powder, which was easily available at my home. So I started doing paintings and there was a time that I was doing a... So SIG Contributex also has panel. I think meet your contributors. I don't know if it's still happening. I'm not sure. So that was the first time I went on that and Paris was like, do you have a handle? So all I could think of was like coffee art. Coffee art. I tried something along. So I just put coffee art girl together. That's how it came into existence. I like it. It's good. It's always good when your handle has a backstory. It's tougher when it's an arbitrary thing. But yeah. I am totally drafting you for contributor art stuff. Because I had said that was the thing. That was my takeaway from Kasslin's keynote. I'm like, I'm getting you to do a t-shirt. I saw her keynote. That was so wonderful. I'm more like abstract. But yes, I will be happy to help because I love doing it. And right now I'm teaching myself how to crochet. So I'm crocheting and my projects are always big. My best friend just had a baby. So I'm trying to do a blanket for the baby and I'm a beginner. So it's like I'm struggling. But you have to do... But you have to do... But you have to make like a cube cuddle or something. We've got, speaking of the collection of open source stuff. So here is a Postgres project logo come to life. Crocheted by one of our Portlanders here. That's wonderful. I actually, Josh, I looked for patterns because I'm not there how to make patterns. I can follow. I have searched for a cube Kubernetes logo pattern. Yeah. For like ages and every couple of weeks or like every month when I take a new project, I go back and see if that pattern is available or can I make it or something. And I also thought about an idea for an app. So I wanted this phone app to be something that can take art and convert it into crochet or knitting pattern. So I have so many ideas. So if someone wants to... I can... I should introduce you to this woman named Christine Flood who works at Red Hat who is also big into kind of knitting, let's just say is kind of a gross subject area. And she actually spent some time working on taking patterns and converting them, basically trying to make a universal, like a DSL for them so that you could feed them to like auto looms as well as creating, whatever you call it, like hand stitching patterns or hand knitting patterns. But I'm not sure if it goes back to art or I think she might have started at CAD drawings, basically. But yeah. So that is you are not alone. And I also remember actually years ago there was a big trend in consulting because I used to come out of consulting where a lot of people started knitting on planes as a way to kind of pass the time and do something with your hands or whatever. And I saw some amazing stuff that people had created while flying across the country. So yeah, I think you're in a good space. But I like the... I've actually heard, I think, of that not being an uncommon style to use coffee grounds as a painting method, sorry, but instant coffee specifically. So I think that's really cool. I'd really like to see... I really want it now a calendar of art by Kubernetes contributors. Like basically with wall art or whatever. I think that'd be super awesome. Not just t-shirts, but something I can like hang up and change every month. So let's talk a little bit about kind of forward-looking. So what do you kind of most... Like what is the biggest gap you see or the biggest thing that you want to see change kind of about Kubernetes over the next few years, let's say? So the project as a whole is getting... Well, it's on the way to maturity or I would call it... It's a very mature project. The one thing that I want to see is like there is a lot of efforts to include more and more people based on like more... be more general inclusive, be more geographically inclusive. I see a gap there. Like the good thing is that there's been like Kubernetes community days for Africa, but I don't see a whole lot of people from there. And Australia is like so secluded for I don't know why, like any of the meetings that we... It's time zones. So I would like to see the project move towards... We are doing a synchronous collaboration and we will be safe like at least for security we are doing a lot of a synchronous collaboration. We did it and released to the release team. It was like geographically spread except for one of the countries in the continent always missing. My ideal dream would be to see everyone all around the world participate at the same time. So I like to see like a little bit more inclusivity, encourage, more... Like all kinds of like gender minorities participation and there's been a lot of efforts going on. To be honest, when I went to 2018 KubeCon it was like majorly the... So my... It might be funny. So when I went to the women's restroom I came out before my colleagues who went to the men's restroom that is a really, really big thing because like there were no one not much women or not much gender minorities there but that has significantly improved but I'd like to create much more... I'd like to see that we create a lot of much more safer environment so that everyone can come. We are already doing amazing so I don't have any... anything to like say that this is not right and this is how we should do it. I just like to see more of it. More of it. Like don't stop it there. Let's just be like more welcoming. It's really awesome. I just do it for the people like I said. So I just want to see... I just want everyone to see how amazing it is and to be honest it's okay if the project is big and overwhelming and you don't want to start here there are amazing other CNC projects which are small too and not overwhelming but I want this community to be like a standard for other communities so they can take a page out of this community how we're getting going how we do things here and adopt it. That's what I want to see. I don't know if I answered I know I just told everything that I want really quick. I think I mean I like at least I'm hearing an answer right in the sense that you want to see kind of a community that really kind of reinforces and encourages the diversity that you know there's some leg work done there's some of the work is done but that you know an increase of that of those efforts would be beneficial to the overall community and I would actually argue that the Kubernetes like you're 100% right like it's getting really big but the nice thing about kind of having all those kind of like sub projects or whatever is that there are some places where you can fit in without having to kind of wrap your head around the entire project kind of all at once and you know it's funny that you bring that up as your kind of biggest you know kind of goal or what you want to see in the future right I mean that's partially why I joined the faculty at BU is my objective is to kind of go from the other direction of you know I want to get them while they're young right so as soon as possible I can I can start to pull in people who are you know a standard in the what we see in our field because you know frankly the best ideas come from a wide range of backgrounds you know and if we don't have a wide range of backgrounds then we think very small so the only way you can kind of solve these big problems is by encouraging you know groups of people to work together that are as diverse as possible. So with that is there what else is there anything else and maybe something small that shouldn't kind of seeing happen over the next you know couple of years you know that's a big lift what you've described and hopefully hopefully it can happen but is there are there any point things are there any you know kind of little things that you would you would mention as well. Not that I can think of anything I would like to help help the committee get there and I can't for some reason I can't think of anything right now. It's a hard part about being on the spot. But right now I can't think of any and I just I just want you to go back and say one thing so if you are so you can't introduce the student track so there is a whole bunch of things for students I know I'm just taking like taking this conversation in different direction I'm sorry for that but the but spread the like the track name or like there is there is like five six good talks sessions that happen this KubeCon and that's going to happen in every other every KubeCon from now on so if students want to submit they want to present at KubeCon they can go ahead and do it and if they want to learn from the student session there are things that are that are what is it an organization I don't know that is an initiative cnc of students so they can go there and that is very dear to my heart as well so I want to have the students as much as I can. Thank you there is a link already in the chat. Yeah they beat me to it I was I was looking forward to yeah I mean I will say like I think the kind of there's kind of a kind of a kind of student track you know where both as speakers but then also as you know kind of a more accessible content right you know a lot of the time when you go to a conference it kind of expects a certain level of knowledge which can be hard for somebody who is either new to the project or new to computing you know and I yeah I completely agree I think as you know as early as possible is definitely an advantage so yeah I think that's pretty cool. Let's see so what else did I want to and Josh did you want to ask about something else? I thought you had something about the kind of when yeah I would ask more stuff about the release team but I think we can okay yeah right right the I mean one thing actually it's been kind of a recent discussion is we talked about how you got into the release team and everything else right and the release team has historically been a way to get into involved in Kubernetes if you didn't otherwise know where to start and you didn't know anybody. I think we discussed that there were 185 applications for you know whatever it is two dozen spots something like that on the last cycle would you still recommend that as for somebody coming to Kubernetes you know wanting to be a contributor for the first time or would you recommend that they go to some other team that might have more openings. And I've been telling folks that there are there are other places in Kubernetes that has equal opportunities the only thing is that it doesn't get like the folks cannot find it that easily for example there was a recent mentoring effort and sick docs the one that was leading it was like a cohort program for how to become a reviewer how to be an active participant or like how to keep the thing going basically encouraging long-term contributors but I don't think it was aware it was not not everyone knew about it right so there are like awesome opportunities like that so I would encourage folks to check out K Dev because everything any new opportunity be smaller break goes to that meeting list and Kubernetes contributors Twitter handle gets even it post like some good issues at times and I think off late they have been tweeting various things that needs help who are looking looking for new contributors who can help with certain little features or big features for whatever they have little big no matter what so they are posting they are looking for help and that gets posted I think what would benefit more is this if we have a structured mentoring programs in other six or other places I think that would help well as well it's not like the release release came as the only place where you can get started there are other places and there are other little new issues good first issues help on it issues so many things that's going on in Kubernetes so that's what I would like to highlight because it's the release team has gotten very highly competitive and like Josh mentioned it's like a handful number of posts like when I was leading I had like 39 people in the release team and this time I think they only have like 29 so more people it's very difficult to mentor you can never mentor more than like three three is a lot because the release team is like a full-time job so it's not doing enough for someone who is trying to be a part of that team and also by being a part of the release team means that you learn something and you can move on to different aspects of the Kubernetes ecosystem so for example for me I was a shy person I'm a shy person I get anxious I don't speak up that much I have gotten here because I started getting there I never showed up in my face in the meetings I still do sometimes I never wanted to speak up I got to lead meetings so I gave the opportunity to others to lead meetings because that's a small thing but it can have bigger impact now I have enough courage to just show up and lead some other sub-project so I think I just diverted from what Josh asked to something else that was the question so I guess it's not going to be another program of anything or is that going to be something you're going to start? So we are going to have triage sessions one of my other sub-project owner one of the other sub-project owner called Pushkar as organizing a triage session so I said that why don't we do for the entire security so he is going to do that and I think he is setting up the invite on Twitter so that people know it and if it's like a every week program we will send it out to KDL mailing list so that people can come and participate so that's one thing that we are trying to do it's a team effort so it takes a village to get everyone like help the new contributors that's how I feel I think it's a different proverb it's a proverb for different thing I just used it for it definitely takes a team Yeah it was actually going to comment I think it's actually come up before too is that a good entry point into a lot of projects is often kind of the docs team because if you can if you can write documentation for whatever you are working with that usually means that you understand it better than the engineers or can depending so I think it sounds like two entry points but I would kind of also add is that I think the Kubernetes community is kind of working very very hard to be kind of inclusive and accepting and supportive or whatever kind of across the board so even if there isn't a formal program it's kind of like the teams are trying really hard so like kind of showing up to and I think like tree out meetings I think you both kind of glossed over why that's important and what's going on like in a triage for example is a really good way to get connected to a project because you can just start to kind of hear what's happening and why people are interested and what the problems are and how you might be able to contribute by picking up something off of that is that I mean I think you both agree with that statement but I think that's kind of why you want to talk about the triage meetings right like bug bash I think that happened for the last release and it was successful too and that was an event that went on for a couple of days there were like champion co-champions there were people from all around the world who facilitated it like the first eight hours shift was taken care by someone and there are things like that so it's just not about issue triage and it's like there is a mentoring events and even how to be a reviewer there are like marketing events you don't always have to contribute to code that's what I say to people there are other aspects of the program all you have to do is like show up and say hi saying hi is the that takes a lot of energy and that is the most difficult thing and once you say hi and ask for help someone will definitely help I had to learn it the hard way so I'm just telling everyone and easing into saying hi is a great way you can ease into it by going to the meetings you don't have to participate you can just listen you can read the docs or make little suggestions here and there about things so getting engaged as you said you can do a bunch of stuff to make it more comfortable once you kind of can volunteer something or whatever there should be or generally speaking will be support for your continued contribution but yeah thanks and I think we're just about at time so I kind of thought this might be a good opportunity to wrap it up did you have any closing remarks or anything you wanted to kind of suggest that we might have missed sorry that was too sweet I can't think of anything I just want to say like if any contributors just want to help or want to just chat just veto to me in fact and if the replies are delayed I will get back to you all but I also take break over the weekend to tell that sometimes maintainers and the contributor like the project the people who are helping others maintainers and everyone needs it takes a while it's open source and it takes a while so I just want to ask everyone please be patient to everyone in the community not just be like to me practice kindness and yeah that's it that's great to have people who are proactively interested in fostering new membership in the community related to having patients I really like the going thing, trend, whatever you want to call it a lot of people are putting signatures in email mile working hours aren't necessarily your working hours don't take this email as a requirement to respond quickly it's a little bit more than that it's that we're all humans we're all in the same team if you can be patient with each other we can get a lot more accomplished than if you get stressed out so Josh was there anything else you wanted to close with or should we call it a show I think it's a show thank you so much for coming on to be interviewed Savita thank you Josh and KB inside the team for having me and for the folks who are there on the call listening to me thank you all and you all have a good wonderful rest of the day wherever you are and if you need help join us next time we'll be doing another show in about a month we have to do the standard pitch if you click like and subscribe and join us the next time where I'm sure we'll have another fun interesting interview about what's going on in Kubernetes