 I'm not asking a question. Have you had a, have you had a poltro veganism? Poltro? I know. I know, mate. What? I know, I know. What? You're the most inconsistent person I've ever met. Hi, my name is Joey Carbstrong. I'm a vegan who has spent the last seven years trying to convince people that animal cruelty is wrong, without as much success as I hoped. So I thought I'd try a new, completely opposite approach. I'd pretend to support animal cruelty and harness the power of reverse psychology. And you're the leader in your brainwalk. What? Okay. This is how it went. All right, so here we are in London. It's pride. There's a celebration going on. We have a sign here that says there's nothing wrong with animal cruelty. Change my mind. We're doing some reverse psychology. We're gonna get the public to argue for the vegan position and see how we go. Let's do it. Yeah, though, come on, come and have a, come and tell me what, did you read the sign first? What does it say? There's nothing wrong with animal cruelty. Change my mind. Okay. Tell me what's wrong with animal cruelty. So when you say, can we just quickly, commonly define animal cruelty? Inflicting needless suffering onto a being, I would probably define as cruelty. Why do you hold a position that there's nothing wrong with animal cruelty? First of all, we've been cruel to animals for thousands of years. I'm not gonna deny that. Okay. It's, I'll say this, it's goddamn efficient to export animals for our needs. However, I don't necessarily mean, I don't necessarily think that that means that there's nothing wrong with it. Now what do you say? Lions. Lions. Are cruel to antelope. No, that's the other thing. They don't like put antelope in like, abattoirs and build like machines and put their entire lifetime into like a suffering building. Who does that? Humans to cows and stuff like that. Dairy cows and shit. So they can't keep them in like, it's more like throughout the extent of its life, it doesn't really get much freedom. But do you know about the dairy industry much? Yeah, I know about dairy industry. I know all about it. I know about the entire process. The cows will be kind of stuck in these kind of things, getting permanent milk, getting impregnated to make a child to have their child taken away from them. When then you can hear them, because some of my family live in a West country in England and all the people out there at Torres they vote for their, because they're farmers, right? So it works for them. They have these like dairy farms. They take the calves away and sell them to a different facility. They keep the dairy farms in one place and they pine, they scream for their kids at night after night after night because they miss their children because their children were taken away. And that's the bond of a mother and a thing, you know, a mother and a child. Yeah, yeah. And that's an emotional kind of torture for them. It's at a point where they have to grieve, they have to grieve for their child and then they get impregnated again because then they won't lactate without having to provide for some sort of child. Yeah, yeah. So it's, it's up in my eyes. Are you a, are you a vegan? No, no, no. I know. I know, mate. What? I know, I know. What? You're not a vegan. Wait a second. You are not, do you drink dairy? No, no, no, no. I don't drink dairy. Because of that? Partly. Okay. All the health things. I do, I do like, I do like all the different milks. I just kind of don't like the way it affects my, it's my mucous and I'm the way other. So it's a health thing. So it's a personal health thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what do you do with animal cruelty? I never said that. It's like, it doesn't, it's not blackout, it's not binary. So it's not like, it's not, I think it's quite appropriate. We're at a pride and the situation we're talking about is not a binary matter either. Okay, it's cool. It's like, it's like, the reason I don't, partake in the dairy industry I think is abominable. But also it's not good for my health. I'm not, I'm not, I'm not vegan. Wait, let me ask you a question. Have you heard of, have you heard of poultro veganism? Poultro? I think that animals of such high emotional intelligence should not be put through the emotional torture that the industries put them through just for our desires to buy burgers at Burger King. Do you understand? I think it's a bit cruel. Not gonna lie. So what's a poultro vegan? Poultro veganism is my thing. Where I can rationalize the one most, probably the most efficiently exploitable animal on earth is the chicken. I think it's probably the most universally eaten meat out of all of them. Cause there aren't that many religions that outlaw the eating of chicken. So wait, wait a second. Can you be cruel to a chicken? I think that if you can, chickens can, can live a much more fulfilling life in a smaller space cause they don't take up as much space. But they lay eggs every day regardless cause they've been bred like that. So they constantly create food source during their lifetime. Okay. Whether or not they're having a good time or not. So, so, but you think I think there's a future. You think cruelty is wrong? A stepping stone to a fully vegan future will have to be poultro vegan first. Cause you will not convince the whole world to give up meat. I'm no, I'm no vegan expert. I don't think you can be vegan and eat chickens. Poultro vegans is coming to the conclusion that chickens might as well be plants. Whoa, okay, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. So I would think that chickens are an animal. Chickens are animals. And you can't be cruel to a chicken. Do you want to just kick this chicken around, beat this chicken up all day, keep it a shitty cage, force me to food all day? Do you want to do that to an animal? That's what happens anyway. Right, but could we push for a future where we could do that less and we could have them out of their lives? Stop, stop deforestation for, for, for bovine farms. The beef, the beef. They're deforest for chickens. No, but like chickens you can have on. What do you think chickens eat? You know what I'm doing, we can have, we can build like fucking. What do chickens eat? Seeds grow. Where do they grow the seeds? Yeah, but you have to grow like, you have to have so much more material as a feed of cow. It's so much more of a water. But what did chickens eat grains? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Why do they grow the grains? I'm not retarded, mate. Yes. They harvest them, they cut down trees, they grow grains and they harvest them for chickens. Yes. That's the same problem. Yes, but like you can, you can get, you can feed more people and more chickens and more cycles with less land and less resources. But you're killing more animals. Is killing an animal inherently cruel? Or is torturing an animal cruel? I mean, I don't think killing is cruel if it's, if you just, but if you, if you, because if it's how they're fulfilling life. Okay. I don't think that killing itself is inherently cruel. You've got like euthanasia programs, right? If you, if someone is suffering, I think it's more ethical to... Oh, well that's different. That's just a bit, but I mean, causing a chicken suffering and then coming through and killing them. Do you think, what do you think's wrong? I think, I think... With that picture? I think, I think... You think causing them the suffering to begin with was wrong? I think that, so what are we talking, what is suffering in this context? Let's just say like stock standard chicken, because I know a lot about the chicken industry It depends, yeah? Yeah, you know, even though it is, even though I don't think there's anything wrong with being cruel, necessarily. But like, but like... You come here and you started like talking like a vegan to me. And then you started telling me it's okay to eat chicken. I'm a visionary. Okay, so I see a better future where we can get there together and learn from it. So, so you're saying, you're saying take all of the support out of dairy and would you include... Take away, take unfortunately, yeah, you have to really minimise it. Boycott meat in dairy. In this world we are drowning in our privilege. We're drowning in it. We need what we want when we want it right now, right here, right now. And we're used to having these things. We don't need them, you understand? So, let me get this straight. Remove all of our support of beef and dairy and put it all into chickens. Yeah, yeah, yeah. One animal, the only thing. We make our friends with God, we say I'm sorry for all this fucking evil we do. But what did the chickens ever do to deserve that wrath? Right. Chickens, yeah, are the most recent, they're the closest link to the dinosaurs. And I think there's something poetic about the human race. Mass killing chickens. And slaving just like, it's like a mark of dominance over the world now. It's like, hey look, we're so cool, look, if the dinosaurs can see us now, do you know what I mean? I mean, you have a very interesting worldview, like. I think... It's very broken. Is it not the one... You're the most inconsistent person I've ever met. Is it not reflective of the world we live in as well? I thought you were a vegan one, second. One minute you said, don't eat dairy, next to me you're saying, just eat chicken. Don't judge a bit by its cover. No, no, I'm not. I think that it's more efficient. We get more out of chickens than just meat. And how do the chickens, do you think, feel? They think the chickens have feelings? Yeah, they have personalities. That's why I'm saying, like, if we're gonna move away as a... If the goal, which I think it is, should be to consume no meat, we have to get there together. We can't just take meat away from meat ears and it's better to be happy with it. Because like, that won't work, that'll cause beef. So you think the only option in your position... Is to slowly transition into a poultry vegan society first. Eat all chickens. Yes, because chickens are so damn good universally across the board, more cultures will agree that chicken is length than like, in Indian culture. So it didn't ever come across your mind to like, not eat animals at all? No, no, no. Don't it cost your mind? I just think, yeah, do it. I'm done here. I've said quite a lot of crazy shit, so... It doesn't cost your mind just like, not eat animals at all. I think that, let's wrap it up. Okay, we wrap it up. I think that being cruel is torturing animals for the entire lifetime and removing them of their freedom. I don't think that killing an animal is cruel. I think that factoring farming is evil and we can do it better and more ethically to support the need and the crutches of the society we live on now. It's a fucked up world. So you're saying we should mass kill ethically? No, you're twisting my words to fit you. No, no, how else do you kill on a mass scale? Oh, yeah, no, you're right. Mass kill? Only chickens. Millions of chickens ethically? Just chickens. Okay. Because cows are too intelligent. I just have to say that what you're doing is God's work. God's work? Changing the hearts of minds of people in a very brilliant and intelligent way. Do you like the reserve psychology? I think it's amazing, yes. I just want to say that my primary thing, my primary belief is that veganism is the ideal we should be striving for as quickly as possible for human society, right? The only reason I'm thinking of blueprints for poultry veganist, ridiculous, contradictory shit is because you've got to change a lot of minds and there's a lot of ways doing it and some people are very stubborn in their views. And just good luck, bro. Cheers, brother. Can I get some literature? Also, thank you for the water. You guys are great. God bless you. God bless you too, bro. Thanks, brother. Next time I see you, you're going to be a new vegan.