 It's been a long long day. I got a lot to say. It feels like I'm carrying a two ton weight. I go see a friend. Hello, I'm Monsignor Patrick Winslow. And I am Father Matthew Cowd. And we are speaking from the Rooftop. A podcast brought to you by Tan Books, in which we invite you to join our conversation out here in the open air. Where we look out upon the world around us from the rooftop of the church and share with you what we see. Hello Father Winslow. Hello Father Cowd, how are you? I am fantastic. Good to be with you. And I want to just take a quick moment to thank the people that helped us with this. You know, we've gotten so much great feedback from people and it's encouraging. Because the production value is excellent. The production value is excellent. And so they've made it so easy for us to do these things wherever we go and whenever we can get together. So just a shout out to Tan publishers for having worked this out for us. And Frederick who works at the seminary with me for we basically just tan this stuff off and they do the magic. So yeah, it's wonderful. It's easy. We just sit around and talk. It's true. So it's true. No, the people are great over there. They've always been so good. It's such a wonderful Catholic family that owns and operates Tan Books and St. Benedict Press and a whole slew of good Catholic companies that help the faithful have access to the types of things that they want to have access to books and other things. So it's fantastic. And now there's a whole new world with digital media and content and things like that. So all those sorts of things are available. Matter of fact, we were just explaining to the bishop what are we doing with these podcasts. That's right. Exactly. So what are you doing? No, it's true. So here's something that's been on my mind recently. And it's in part born out of it's a question born out of experience. Not just an academic question. So it's it born out of experience. It's leading me to an academic question. Now, I have you and I have engaged in a prayer life over a long arc of time. And since we entered in the seminary, we were handed the divine office liturgy, the hours. And that repeats on the most things repeat on a four week cycle, some things on a one week cycle, some things on an annual cycle. And then we pray it, right? So after a number of years, you know, we're circling back around so many times with the same Psalms, with same prayers, intercessions, and so on and so forth. So I recognize that when I pray the divine office, and I'm maybe hearing the words slightly different in this moment of time than maybe I did previously. But at the last I am saying the same words. And in these experience and reflecting upon this experience of recitation of something over and over and over and over again, even if not just like a Hail Mary that's repeated 10 times a row, but it's like something that's on a four week cycle or a one week cycle. At some point, this is a feeling, not a thought. At some point it feels like, didn't I already say this? Like, how many times I have to keep saying it? And there's something that almost feels, and again, I'm talking about feeling, it almost feels futile. I said it, I meant it when I said it before. And now I got to re-say it and re-say it and re-say it and re-say it. On the other hand, I can't imagine my life apart from a routine of her. Yeah, a life where it was just given over to more capricious or cordy-bedal, you need some structure. Whatever you wish, right? Exactly, just kind of go with the wind. That would be hard. I mean, you would have to have some structure, but I guess it's kind of going down to the words of it all. And with the rosary, it's slightly different, right? Because you're meditating on the mysteries. So there is… We talked about that in the podcast, yeah. Yeah, whereas we're praying in the Divine Office or in some types of devotions, right? Well, people are, I don't know, they're praying a series of Novinas or they're praying something they pray every single day. Doesn't it? I don't know. You get in the back of your mind, our Lord said, it's not the mere recitation of words, right? And yet we do it. And I figured you would have some highfalutin theological points to be made. But that said, these comments are made only from experience. I experience, on the one hand, a great gratitude for the structure that's provided by this routine of these types of prayers. This is not the summation of a prayer life, right? But this is an element to which we are bound through sacred orders. We commit to praying this Divine Office. So I'm grateful. On the other hand, I sometimes think, how many times do I have to say these things, right? Like, at what point? Well, I think it's a great question. I'm just recently, for whatever reason, coming into an, I mean, over the revelatory, coming into a new phase where I'm really enjoying the Divine Office again. So this is a perfect question at this moment for you. For some reason, it's just lighting up, like I'm looking at it in a different way than I ever have before. And I don't know what that qualitative difference is. I would say that I've shifted a bit relative to it being an opus day. What I mean by that is, the office, you'll feature them, that we are obliged to say, first of all, it's an obligation for priests, right? There may be people that have no idea what we're talking about. Yeah, sure. So priests like Monks of Old have a pared down sort of method of prayer that we do, and we call it the opus day, or the work of God, because it's what we do for the faith. We promise to pray this for the faithful. It begins in the morning. It begins in the morning with a series of prayers, Psalms, readings, and then it goes again in later morning into, again, Psalms, and these readings are the second, for the rest of the day, come just from the Scriptures, whereas the first Psalms and readings can have some lives of the saints and various things like that. So they have different cycles depending on which hours you're reading. And so the traditional terms are what? So matins is the first one, which refers to the dawn or the morning time, and lords, which is for praise or morning prayer, tersex non, which is the three different hours of the night, noon and three in the daytime prayers, and then vespers, which has to do with that evening tide, evening prayer. And the last one is the completion of the day, the night prayer. And then when you first of all, you're always very short, even the old right is short, the church realizes that you're not going to pray very well before you go to bed. And then you go to bed and you wake up and you start again. So you get the sense, you know, you enter the seminary in 93, and I entered into 93, we were both entered in 93, is that right? So since 1993, well, that was at 30 years now, right? So for 30 years now, we have been on this routine, a daily routine that repeats. And I tend to feel the onerous nature of it. First of all, let me just back up and say that what priests were required to do prior to the council, the brevery, it's called the brevery, which is an abbreviated form of what the monastic office was, it's something that's portable, you're not seeing it inquired necessarily, you get your own books, you say them to yourself, you're supposed to say them with your moving lips, you're supposed to say the audible, interestingly enough. But what we were required to do before the council was difficult. It's a lot more, same breakup of the hours, but they added many more Psalms, versicles. It took a lot of time. And I've done that brevery before. I wanted to get engaged with it when I was in Rome, studying just because I wanted to see what that was like. And it's really, it is a real burden. And so burden so far as it takes an awful lot of time. It's a sacrifice of prayer. And you and I were in seminary where it doesn't take a lot of time to do the hours, the divine office, and we kind of give ourselves more over to the devotional time or the rosary or meditation, etc. But especially in the old office, I found if you tried to hurry to get it done in any way, shape, or form, it became such a burden. So it's just like we say about the cross, right? If you don't carry it, you'll get crushed by it. And the same with the office. If you don't carry it properly, it's going to crush you in the old office. The new one, you can get done so fast and not paying attention. But nevertheless, as you say, I get to some office of readings that I've never liked. I never found them to be interesting. And we're stuck reading them again. And this circle comes around again. And here it is. I'm like, why do I have to read this thing again? I remember exactly for the last 30 years what it said. I didn't like it for the last 30 years, but I got to read it again. And so for a long time, I began to see that in a similar vein to where the old mass, the old traditional mass, saw the readings because people oftentimes will say, like, back then we wouldn't have understood the readings. He had your own missile, etc. But there was a different emphasis, we've spoken about this before, that the readings were done in liturgical setting, not at some point in life for the church, not for the purpose of letting the faithful hear those things, but as part of the preparatory offering or giving God's word back to him before you give his incarnate word back to him in the sacrifice. So it wasn't didactic. It wasn't for the purpose of someone knowing exactly what was being said, which is why the priest had to say it, even if someone else sang it, because it was part of the offering, because it was an interesting sort of thing. And when you see the divine office, the Liturgy of the Hours connected to your work in that way, and you realize that I've got a whole parish of people that aren't praying this, I've got a whole cadre of people in various parishes that I've been at, for whom I am obliged to pray. I've got the whole church for whom I'm obliged to pray that are not going to pray these things. And when I saw it as a kind of work that I'm offering to God for them, it ceased to be something particularly personal. It didn't matter if I got something out of the particular reading so much, etc., etc. Now that had its, I'll stop here, but that had its own detriment too, because I ceased to see it as something that was feeding my spiritual life. It's both and, really. It's both and. And only recently have I really begun to enjoy it personally again, for my own spiritual life. I can't hardly get through it anymore, even though it's so short, relatively short, but I get stuck on phrases like, I cannot believe I've said this for 30 years and I've never seen that. That's it. It's like, have I been alive? Why does that seem like somebody added that since the last four weeks ago when I read it last? Yeah, it's it's one of those things. And so it kind of got my mind thinking because on the one hand, if there's a weight to repetition, yeah, and again, a sensation of futility, like never having completed, right, in the sense that you just you're rolling the stone up to let it roll back down and back up again or whatever. It's never actually delivered, so to speak. It's just a sensation. Because I know to the contrary, right? I know that that act of prayer is received, right? So that is delivered, so to speak, right? But this is the feeling of it, right? And then on the other hand, I'm also acutely aware of how needed it is. Some of those structures, again, we have other components to our prayer life that allow for freer thinking, freer contemplation, whether it's silence, silence in front of the Blessed Sacrament, or even the meditations of a rosary, or, you know, scriptural meditations of sort of lexiodemia, that sort of thing where you have a different experience. So I'm really just kind of honing in on the repetition stuff that is even that even that sounds degrading. I don't mean it that way. But the stuff that's just repeated, repeated and repeated. Well, you remember our dear friend, Father Gover, he used to say, because he got in Easter, you say the same Psalms every single day, because it's still Easter day in the octave. Right. And one of those Psalms is the sort of beautiful canticle of all the blessings. And so, you know, ice and snow, bless the Lord, light and darkness, bless the Lord. And it was about sixth day of the octave in our dear Father Gover. You said, everything on this page, bless the Lord. Bless the Lord, exactly. Just because it's part of that Hebrewism that doesn't have superlatives. Right, the repetition. That they like the repetition. And you can easily say to someone, do you get tired of saying, I love you, you know, to the person that you love? No. And yes. Yeah. In other words, there are times in which I'm not feeling the same kind of... Or I said it to you last week. Why don't we have to say it again? Right. But, and I get that sort of passionate movement that you have, let's say when you fall in love, when you're first, you know, falling in love with people, etc. When you get your first girlfriend, whatever else. And yes, you love hearing it as many times as she can say it. And you love saying it as many times as you can. But that's just the nature of infatuation of the time. And I'm not saying it shouldn't carry on into the spiritual life, but there are times you just don't feel that. Right. And so you don't want to say it again over and over and over. But that doesn't mean that it's just because you don't feel that it's not the right thing to do. And so I think you feel it as you have experience of it being a work that's not complete, something that's slightly onerous, and something that's even a bit annoying at times. So the way I find sometimes with going to Eastern rite liturgies, how many times do they say Lord have mercy? Right. And I get pretty impatient after about the 100th time. We said this. I'm like, either you're going to have mercy or not at this point. That's kind of what I'm getting to. Am I the woman knocking on the door that won't leave you alone until you give me mercy? Right. I thought of that, right? Like, is this part of that persistence that our Lord holds up as an example in prayer? So, you know, like I say, I was thinking about this sort of more theoretically coming out of this experience. And part of it was there's an element to the prayer that's eternal. And cyclic things are a way to represent eternity in a linear timeline. Right. Right. And so it's kind of where my mind was going. It's a way of manifesting something eternal by repetition. That makes sense. And I can feel that, right? But on the other hand, I want to say on the other hand, I said in addition to that, we so long for that eternal that it does get fatiguing that I have this repetitious cycle inside temporality when I want to experience this in eternity. Right. Right. So there is an element, I think, that's appropriately fatiguing in the sense that I'm made for. I'm being called to this eternal communion when it feels a little more arduous because of the current circumstances in time and not yet having this totally fulfilled in eternity. I don't know, what is your thoughts there? I'm just thinking about all the different heresies I'm touching about. No, no, no, no. I mean, time is a really interesting topic. Oh, yeah. And aspect. We have both time and verbs and you have sort of aspect and verbs. It's a slightly different thing. And in terms of grammar, and I've been thinking about this recently, and how many different tenses we have and what words are actually doing in those tenses in terms of the verbs because we don't have only certain aspects of language or a subject to time. And most of them are not, right? Your noun isn't subject to time. It's just, it's a substance. Even though in itself, it goes through time. The reason I'm bringing it up now is because I repetition requires time. And so you're feeling the tic-tac when you repeat. And there's a yearning for the eternal. There's a yearning for the eternal. And you don't actually. And you feel like you're trying to tell them I'm trying to get there. You can't get anywhere. And I'm just spinning. You're back on an elliptical machine. Exactly. That makes really good sense. And I think your notion of it, when you mentioned eternal, what made me think about that as opposed to something linear where I am trying to get to a particular goal, if I were to think about it as something that's puncturing my time that, yeah, I did say Lord have mercy five minutes ago. And I'm saying it now, and I'm going to say it in five minutes. And I'm going to say it again in five years and 50 years if I'm alive, that I'm, instead of going, instead of going linearly forward, I'm going up into a request that I can never stop making. I'm engaging that more of that eternal sense of I am in a position of meeting your mercy all the time. And I'm going to articulate that. I'm going to participate in that thing that's always out there. I'm going to represent my eternal desire, my eternal cry in a temporal way by repetition, by things being cyclic. I'm not sure how many people are aware of the fact that the circle has traditionally represented eternity in a certain way, or the infinity symbol, just that if you start at one point, you're going to return and you follow the contour of the circle, you're going to come right back to where you were. So there's that sense of never ending circles, cyclic, same thing with the infinity signs, this same sort of concept. And so that's where the connection between eternal and something being cyclic or repetitive can kind of connect. I mean, you and I know, because we've talked similarly before, we know how we communicate, but those listening may not be figuring out why the cyclic can represent eternal. I think we can say legitimately that in the spiritual life, presumably or hopefully, these things aren't simply cyclical. It's more of a helix kind of structure, right? I mean, in other words, you're kind of coming almost like a corkscrew. It almost sounds like expiration. Inspiration, that's true. So imagine if you're coming to the same point, but you've entered in a bit deeper into the cork like a corkscrew. Right. And you keep coming around to that same thing, but you're hopefully in a different depth or height, whichever one you want to go to. Yeah, that makes sense, because you do feel like that every year that it comes around again. Not that I'm necessarily getting more profound, but it's not the same. I'm not coming at it at the same mean as we do with all this. That's it, right? It's a different moment. It's a different evolution of me or hopefully evolution, not a devolution of me, but there are enough circumstantial differences to make the whole thing new and not a repetition. They said about Saint John, the apostle, that at the end of his life, he just stopped saying anything new. He just kept saying the same thing, which was love one another, because he had been with the word himself. He had heard all of the particular words he had articulated that conversation in his own gospel. He had tried, I should say tried, he did manifest the wildness of the book of the apocalypse in written form as an instrument of God. And all of those many, many words and all of those signs and parables and fantastic things, importance in the sky and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. As he kept going around cyclically toward the end of his life, it just got whittled down to one thing that he kept saying. And somehow that encompassed everything that he had said before. And that's something. Yeah. He wouldn't say any more after that. And he didn't get tired of saying it, That's interesting. Because it does kind of capture sort of a purpose to the repetition, that it is a matter of honing into a fuller depth of meaning that is evolving. So you say, Lord, at mercy, with a journey of faith, that expression, those words take on more with deeper and deeper understanding. Such that in this case, he lands on the central thesis as he sees and understands it. And there's no more to say. There's no more to say. When you properly understand it. Right. And that's, I suppose, it's the same with, I mean, analogously, right, with the father, the father only says one thing. The son. Yeah. Speaking that word. And I think that we, I feel like that sometimes at my age, with the seminarians, when I get together with my friends, who know my history, and who know my, my, my story, my narrative, etc. I, I don't have to say as much. I can say X. And you know, the letters of the alphabet that came before X. Right. Whereas with them, I don't feel like saying all of those letters. Yeah. Like you couldn't possibly understand what I mean. Where that's coming from the history. How much this thing has germinated and matured. Or you could say one word and somebody who knows you and understands the context in history would understand it so much more profoundly. Yeah. And that's one of the great beauties of long-term friendships, you know, that someone else has been woven into your story in such a way that you don't have to go back and recount everything. You cannot have a shorthand. Yeah. And it's a meaningful shorthand. It's not a way of being dismissive. It's actually a way of expressing to another that, you know, I understand you. Yeah. And all you have to do is say one or two words and I get where you're coming from. I know it's. If I say to you, if I say to you, help each other. It's going to be something totally different. Exactly. Coming from me to you. Yeah. Just because of our own common history and things we've known and phrases we've used and whatever else. Then I say that to anyone else. Exactly. Because it's more than just the words. Yeah. Yeah. That's it. Yeah. That's good. I'm afraid I don't know if I watched this into a two theoreticals. Oh, I know. This one could take us a while. Yeah. This one could get a headache. But hopefully people find it interesting to glimpse into the life of the priest in the sense that maybe some of you didn't know that we have an obligation to pray the divine office or that it had this repetitious, cyclic reality. So sometimes you'll see priests and it looks like they're reading their phone in church or it looks like they're having like a small Bible, whether it's the small Bible looking brief or the one that's now digitally available on the phone. That's what the priest is praying. Yeah. And you know that we do this day in and day out. You know when those smartphones first came out I was, I had forgotten my brief. Because the brief is kind of big and bulky. And so sometimes if you're traveling, if you're walking, you don't want to bring it with you. And I was living in Rome at the time and I stopped in a church to say, and I'm looking to my left and to my right and I'm kneeling. Right. So I prayed on my phone and this is really the beginning of smartphones and that kind of thing. Pretty early on. And this wonderful Italian woman came over and yelled at me for playing on my phone in the church. I was so proud of her. Were you able to show her? I did. I'm trying to, I'm looking, I'm praying because I don't want to see it. I don't want to see it. We're, you know, kind of getting heckled in Italian. But I kind of agreed with her. I mean, I hate using my phone in the church. It seems a little more mature. I go to the seminary and do it. And you feel different about using it in that way. But nevertheless, you're right. Can't presume that a priest is doing something like texting. Right, exactly. He's in the church on his phone. You know, it's likely, at least given benefit of the doubt, that he's pulling up his divine office. And so we do this, and we do this for the sake of a sacred vocation, a vocation, the sacred ministry part of which is praying daily. And so, so integral is it to the life of the priest, that it's one of the promises we make, that the faithful have so little knowledge of, you know, they think, okay, oh, celibacy, obedience. And, you know, in the case of religious, those who belong to religious communities having about poverty as well. But for those of us who are diocesan priests, they have these promises of obedience and celibacy, but they have to a promise of prayer, in particular, a prayer to pray this divine office for the sake of the church and, you know, all the faithful. I mean, that's, I kind of think about it. I think if you pulled your average Catholic, they would have no idea that there was anything beyond celibacy and obedience. They would throw in poverty, but they wouldn't make the right distinction between diocesan priests and religious priests. But that aside, they would have no concept that we actually make a promise of prayer, specifically that prayer. Yeah, for them. For them and for the whole church, which is why we can recite Psalm texts that are so contrary to our mood, right? You can have very joyful, chipper, and you're not in that mood, or you could have some very somber things, and you're joyful and chipper. It doesn't matter because it's not about you. Yeah, it's in the mystical body somewhere. Yeah, exactly. That's true. Well, that is a topic. This topic, certainly we could stretch this one out for several. Absolutely. Maybe we'll, but before we go, I have new tenants at the seminary. Great Danes? No, although the Great Danes are involved. Oh no. I have four new piglets. Oh Lord, I'm going to say. Are we saying tenants rather than pets because they're going to be slaughtered at some point? Exactly. So we don't want to get emotionally too close to these tenants? Of course, everyone's already coming up with names, so they're like Abraham. Oh my Lord. Okay, all right. There's so many names floating around right now. So these are the types of piglets that are butchered eventually? Right, six months. That's it? That's it. How much food do you have to give them? Well, part of my reason for doing it is that we throw away so many scraps. In addition, there's sort of a compost pile. Imagine we're carving up vegetables for this many people. You're going to get odds and ends and things that, and then in addition to things that people will actually eat. And so I figured, that turns back into food for us. So are they furry? They're furry, yeah. Are they furry pink? Are they furry black? They're furry black. Yeah, they're really cute. Are they cute? Well, now because they're small. Now, listen, so here's the stupid move of the day. The Great Danes never go after anything except for deer. They love chasing the deer. I even brought one back in his mouth one time, right? But aside from that, they don't really go after anything. They don't do anything. They just, it's pretty lazy. They're laid back, as you know. And so I didn't think that they would go after the pigs. And the pigs are in an electric fence that we built. And it's a pretty large fence and a large area, right? For the pigs to roam around in. And it holds pigsty and the whole thing that we built. And so I take the dogs there to introduce the dogs. And frankly, let the dogs get zapped by electric fence. To know. To know. And so the first Dane goes up there and sees the pigs and starts to run at him, hits the fence and steps back. The second Dane looks at the first one like idiot and he leaps over the fence in one bound. Chases after the piglets. All the poor piglets. The piglets get to the end, hit the fence. They get zapped. The Dane gets zapped because the Dane can't stop that quickly. Of course. And destroys the fence. And all the piglets run off into the forest. No, they're gone. Yes. I had them for 10 minutes. They're totally gone. Well, here's the story. So then Farmer Ted Cowth has to go find piglets. How do you catch piglets? I don't know. Right? So I'm thinking of myself. I don't know what to do. So I'm bringing food around. I'm shaking food. Shaking food in a barrel. But they don't know me. And they're not used to that sound coming from me. So I'm associating it with food. So I put food along the trail hoping that they'll pick up on the food and find the way back. It was a comic book story. Oh, no. Like I was playing Frisbee with the guys in between the classes. And all of a sudden, there's four piglets on the field. No. They came out of nowhere. All four. Yeah, they're all together, right? So I try to get behind them. The boys try to corral them and try to push them back toward. Did they escape? And they just got, you know, they did. As a foursome moved like a little flock of birds, they totally evaded us back in the forest. They did not. Yeah. So then I'm walking outside in between a couple of things. I was going to the car and then they're out there staring at me. Right. And I try to do the same thing. They run off. So then I like forget it. At this point, the Danes are going crazy because they've been stuck inside all day. They've got this smell of pig. They want the pigs. Oh, no. So I take them on the opposite part of the property. And all of a sudden, within like five steps into the woods, I see their noses go up in the air and they take off like jack rapids. Oh, no. Rats. So they go down the trail, obviously chasing the pigs. Well, that was an earlier part of the scent, though. The pigs had doubled back. And I turned around and the pigs were right next to me. They were not. Yes. The danger ran in the opposite direction from a previous set. Because they were going down that wrong path. And the wind was in the opposite direction and the pigs were behind me. They look at me and turn around and run down the trail all four together. It's like a comic book. And finally, I went back up to the pen in which I had put the last of the food from various trails. I laid down, put a big hoard of food in the middle of the pen. Pist them in. It's gone. They had gotten in there, eaten it and left again. They did not. Yeah. These little boogers. So now we're at it. That's what they say in Italian, right? So I'm in the pen with Deakin. And Deakin is our facilities manager, Deakin Mueller. And we're in the back of the pen. I'm going to put some more food down. I'm like, I don't know how we're going to do this. I can't sit here and wait for them to come in. Right. And as we're talking, I turn around and they're staring at me again. How far away? This is, they were on the other side of the property 10 minutes before, right? Right. And they're 15 feet from me, staring at me. They are not. Yeah. Outside the pen. Outside the pen, right? So they see the food there and they're staring at me. And I'm staring at them. I walk the other direction. The fence is off. I jump over the fence. I leave. I let them see me leave. So they go in. I double back around and I hide in the bushes. And I wait for them to keep following the trail long enough to get past the gate. And I close the gate and they're in there. Oh my, so what are you going to do? You have to have a higher. I have to figure out what to do with the dogs. Yeah. So what I'm going to do is put them on. I didn't have a leash. I'll put them on a leash. Let them shock themselves a few times and get the picture, I guess. It's just nine volts. It won't hurt them. Right. So that's an electronic fence in the sense that that's a virtual fence that the leash operates from. So can you... Well, I have a virtual fence as well on their collars, but I got to reset that to keep them away from the... Anyway, it was just fun. Oh my. I don't know if we'll ever slaughter the pigs. I just kind of want... I think it's important for seminary and the sisters to take care of things. Yeah. Have responsibilities to realize what it requires to take care of things. And I'd like to kind of the whole recycling process. I kind of find it fascinating. Yeah. I think there's something quite natural and beautiful about what do they call it? Substance living? Yeah. Where you kind of feel on the order of nature where you fit in. You don't just know it from a book. Exactly. You feel it. Well, when the guy, he's a great friend of ours. He was in the seminary once and he's got a great family. He's a homesteader. He brought me the pigs. And when they got out, I'm like, what do I do now? He's like, welcome to homesteading. You think it's just a ball of relaxation out there in the wilderness. This is what it looks like every single day. Murphy's Law. Something happened. You didn't expect to happen. Yeah. And I said, what do I do? He's like, I don't know. You're a pig now. It's like, they'll probably come back in a few days. So... Well, they were... They did. And they came back again. He couldn't believe it. I called them. How big are they? I'd say they're the size of a rugby ball. They're tiny. Yeah. Wow. Now I can see the pigs. They're really cute. And you don't have names yet? No. No. Well, you took my one last time. I don't have anything that I can't compare to the pig story. It's a pig story. Yeah. I mean, that's extraordinary. We'll enter the pig story this time. We got it. We got to enter the pig story. It's like... You got to come see them. They're really cute. I can't add anything to that. They're fun. All right. God bless you all. Check out. Thanks for listening to this episode of From the Rooftop. For updates about new episodes, special guests, and exclusive deals for From the Rooftop listeners, sign up at rooftoppodcast.com. And remember, for more great ways to deepen your faith, check out all the spiritual resources available at 10books.com. And we'll see you again next time... From the Rooftop.