 Welcome to the original gangsters podcast. I'm your host Scott Bernstein. Big, big edition right now. We're going to, we love going straight to the source. We go, you know, the raw unadulterated truth when it comes to the mob and the underworld and how this stuff all, you know, plays on a day-to-day basis. So I want to welcome in a good friend of mine, former Genovese mob associate from Western Massachusetts, the Springfield crew, David Chicky Chattatelli. Thank you, Dave. Thank you, Scott. How are you? Nice to see you. Chicky's reputation precedes him. I'm not, I say that with all sincerity and, you know, reverence. You know, Chicky was one of the biggest bookmakers on the East Coast in the late nineties, the first part of the 2000s, working for big Al Bruno and the Scabeli, they pronounce it Scabeli or Shabeli? Shabeli, Shabeli. Shabeli Brothers. And then, you know, his kind of younger crew that was headed by a childhood friend of his friend of the show, Anthony Aralata, Benji took over. And then he was kind of in that little bit of that inner circle for a second before it all kind of came crumbling down. So I kind of want, I'm going to just hand the, I'm going to try to do something I don't do as often as I should and just shut up and hand over the floor to Chicky. And I'm just going to ask him to, you know, people have been following this. They've followed our reporting on Springfield. I just find it's such an underrated group to study. And they were in the middle of everything, most powerful crime family in, you know, the country, the Genovese, this was a faction of those guys. And like I said, I think it all kind of ended the before and after era of what was and what is now, I always say kind of ending when Joe Massino flipped in 04, you know, a New York mob don decides to become a rat and wire up in his own people. It's all done at that point. But Chicky was there for that last maybe decade plus. So Chicky tells the story of hanging around as a young knock around guy in Springfield and being around the Chabellis and Big Al and Yeah, absolutely. And again, thank you for having me. I've been looking forward to doing this. Scott, you know, we talk every so often and thank you again for having me. And yeah, yeah, Springfield. I mean, people, people, I try to tell people when I do different podcasts and even people that are friends of mine in New York and, you know, can't sleep on Springfield. I mean, people don't realize that. I mean, Springfield and its time was, you know, it was a real deal. Some real people around. I do a big big big money makers. Yeah, yeah, they were big money makers. And in our in our area, it was it was more like I know New York, they do different things like they're really big into the unions and all that stuff. And Springfield was a little different. I mean, big money area. I mean, my guy, my mentor, if you want to call him that was a awful big Al Bruno. And we grew up myself and the friend, the show, like you said, he had been here a lot. It was my childhood friend. We grew up since seven years old, six, seven years old, playing different sports, hockey, baseball, soccer. His uncle was our was our coach in soccer and hockey. And my father was our coach in baseball. And yeah, we hung around since kids. And, you know, we came up around these guys. As a kid, I worked for Anthony or a lot of father, Tony or a lot of senior who was a gentleman of a guy, anybody that knew him, guy was a great guy. Never was into anything street. A lot of the wise guys, the legend wise guys, whatever, they respected them. They liked them a lot, but he just never was involved in that other than betting betting on the weekend. He used to like betting games in the weekend, but he was not involved in that. He was a hardworking guy. Do you have a store? Do you have a store? I'm sorry. Do you have a store? Fruit produce, big fruit produce store. And he had like the biggest place before like Costco with them. It was really, really big. And, you know, they put like the onions and potatoes right on the floor like Costco does, but he was doing it like in the 70s and 80s before anybody. So we worked, I worked as a kid. A lot of us guys that were friendly with Anthony worked there at one time or another as kids. And yeah, the wise guys would all come in there. There was two in particular organized crime guys that were very close to Anthony's family. And that was Al Bruno, who I believe I don't know exactly how, but the mother was related to Bruno somehow, like a cousin, a distant cousin, they had the same aunt or something like that. And also Anthony DeLaval was very close to Anthony and his parents, and they were very close. And yeah, they would come in the Bruno mostly, but they would come in the store on Sundays and all different times, mostly Sunday. And they would meet other guys there from Providence, from Boston, New York guys who come once in a while, upstate New York, Connecticut, Worcester, because Worcester, we had a couple of guys out Worcester too. A guy, I ate dinner with him a couple of times. He loved Bruno. A guy named was Carlo Master Totaro. And he was in Worcester. And I met him several times at Bruno's restaurant. But he was very close to Bruno. He liked Bruno a lot. And so we used to meet them guys and like some of them guys would come to the store and they'd go up in the back room and talk and as kids, we wanted to know, Oh, who was that one? Who was that one? And you know, we'd figure out the father when they left would tell us that was him, that was him. So as kids, we were around it, you know, and growing up, we hung around down the south end of Springfield. It's almost like a small South Philly. And it was the same kind of thing. We're all friends since kids, you know, growing right up through the teenage years, you know, a couple of us went to different high schools, but we were together every weekend at night, playing sports. You know, it was a tight, a very tight crew of guys. And like I said, we came up together since we were kids, you know, and at any given night, we were probably hanging around the south end on the corner with 30, 40, 50 guys. So when would you have been in high school, the mid 80s, late 80s? Yeah, I graduated 19, I graduated 1985 and Anthony or a lot of graduated 1986. So right about 85 86 our guys, you know, so you were in junior high in the, you know, late 70s, early 80s, right, right? Yeah. And just to give people just a quick history lesson. Everyone talks about the Chabales and Bruno and, you know, DeLavo as well as kind of an underrated power there that if he hadn't died, who knows what would have happened, you know, he was right, a kind of a, someone who bridged a gap between different factions and might have been a good boss. I know he's boss for a short period of time. Yeah. But big enough big no Sam was the first kind of Godfather figure of of Springfield for the Geno base. Do you have any recollection of him or? Yeah, I was a young kid. I mean, I was a young kid, but I remember seeing him several times here and there. And he was a nice guy older, but he was like, when we're, when we're in our young teens, he was like, I want to say in his 80s. So he was really up there. Yeah. Yeah. And, but you know, we know who he was. And we seen him and we'd say hello. And he had a little young around, you know, down at the Cirrus restaurant back the old Cirrus. And yeah, but I like seeing him once in a while, but not really, he'd be hanging around because like I said, he was really elderly, older at that time, you know. And at that time, you know, when he was getting sick, Skyball was kind of the way for things on the street, you know, big no tell me if I'm wrong here, big no Sam was leading things from, you know, kind of World War two times, right? Into the 60s, 70s. And at that point, started to kind of phase out. And then Skyball and Baba and Baba, yeah, the Shabali's kind of took they took the reins like I would say probably late 70s into the 80s. On the, you know, the big names on the marquee. So can you talk about how the brothers operated? I mean, I know Bruno was under Skyball, Deliva was more under Baba. Yeah, yeah, well, well, you got to understand, we're in Springfield, but it's all the same. But Anthony, Anthony Delava was more with the Puglianos, if you remember that name, Frankie and Louis Pugs, and they were from West Springfield, which is only literally five miles away from the South End of Springfield. But they Anthony Delava and them guys were over in West Springfield, Westfield, right outside Springfield. And they, as a kid, I can remember them more sticking together. And like feeling stringy and them guys were with the Shabali's, you know what I mean? And Bruno. And, but Anthony Delava was, he was a serious guy. And he, he operated a real like, talk about low key. Anytime you see him, he looked like he was a farmer, you know, he had the jeans and the boots and, you know, maybe one of them tie and scully caps. Yeah, animal though, animal, you know, and his uncle was Anthony Torino Bendo, who was a big figure too in that, in that world, you know. So yeah, these are the guys that came up around us and Anthony Delava was very close with a lot of family. So anytime we would get in trouble as kids fighting in bars or in their bars or whatever, it would always be Anthony Delava that, you know, called up or set word he wanted to see him or and Bruno. So between them, him and Bruno, they were honest. I mean, later on on me, when I started working for Bruno, then, then it was more him. Yeah, because, you know, they just, they, that's how it was. And, but yeah, it was incredible growing up in Springfield. It was unbelievable. I mean, it was just such a different 70s and the 80s. It was the respect. It was just the last, it was the last golden era of this thing in every city. 100%. It started to fade a little bit in the 90s, but it was still powerful. 2000s had a little bit of a kind of a pop up. And then all of a sudden, you know, the whole thing craters, right? I said, I kind of, I look at it as like BC and AD, like BC is before Joe Massino goes bad and AD is after everything after. So for the last 20 years, it's just kind of a whole different era. But being there in the 80s in the in the mix, like you said, Boston, Connecticut, the guys obviously in New York on the West side, you know, there was a lot of, a lot of action. Talk about when you first started making book, were you booking in high school? If you in a minute, I'll get there in a minute. I just wanted to also remind you that back in the like, late 70s, early, early 80s, we used to Searles was a big restaurant to Chabelle's owned it. And we used to, I didn't go down as much as a lot of other people, but a lot of people hung around there during the day. And that Tony Searlano used to come down to Springfield and be at the bar, and you would never know who he was. If you walked in and didn't know him, he had the overcoat with the cigar in the hat. I mean, you would just look like an elderly guy going in there to get out of the sun. And it was it was him, you know, he would have a driver bring him down, you know, not too often, but he was definitely there. And so I came up in the 80s and we were hanging around our whole life, you know, since kids doing everything. And but it started getting like 1986. I went into the military. I went to the Navy. I went to Great Lakes, Illinois boot camp. And I was going to be in until right about early 1990, you know, it would have been four years. And I might have made a career because I was stationed in Honolulu, Pearl Harbor. And I got hurt on a ship. So I ended up getting out and about six months shy of my four years. Yeah. So I got 1989 and out of the military. And I went back to hanging around the south end and everything. And Bruno, when I when I when I came out of the military, Bruno was doing a small prison sentence, I think two or three years for sportsbook making or something. It wasn't nothing big. And when I came out, he got out, I think in 1991, it wasn't only a couple years. And that's when when he was in a friend of mine, another dear friend of mine, who I will mention as he's still around, his father was close to Bruno when he came to me. And he said, Hey, listen, we need they took a series of pinches, the guys in the office, you know, the older guys. And they said, We need somebody to clean out the office. And they explained to me what it was. And so I said, Yeah, I said, I'll do it. You know, right now, I'm not doing nothing. I'll do it. And then I started, that's when I started working for Bruno. 1989 I started. And he got out six months after I started working for him. And, you know, then he was on the street again. And other than a couple stay pinches, like just local pinches, where no violence, essentially, you don't do nothing for six months. And it's forgotten about really, maybe pay a fine. I was with him. So that that happened in the early 90s, we ran a couple of restaurants and bars for Bruno. He gave us a couple opportunities to run a venue for him. We did that. But we were so busy in 1990. It was like 91, 89, 90, 1990. We were so busy and having fun and this and that we didn't run it the way it should have been run. So we kind of blew that opportunity he gave us. And again, it was we had the opportunity was myself, Anthony Arlotta and another kid, like I said, he's around. So I won't mention now. But we were three of us, we were running the place for him. And during that time, we got in trouble. And one of their bars we had, we got to fight one of their bars. And we we essentially went on the lamb we took off the Fort Lauderdale for a month because they were going to get us. And we got word through one of the Chabelli's nephews, hey, they had enough that you guys are going to get it. They were going to crack us around. And so we ended up coming back after a month. We thought everything was right, but they got us. We had to go meet. It was unbelievable. We met Anthony DeLavo, his uncle Bendo, and then when them guys show up, it's serious. It's not like, you know, you're going to get a good crack. And Babba was there feeling strange easy drove us to the meeting. So there were some heavy hitters there. And I looking back now, it's funny now, but it wasn't funny then. But there was four of us that had to go and Babba started yelling at us about you know, because he said you're going to go on my bar and disrespect it because he owned a bunch of bars in Springfield. This happened to be Makar as it was a rock bar in Springfield. And you know, they got Anthony a lot of pretty good. They got another kid pretty good. And they got Anthony a lot of Nikki, his first cousin pretty good. And then it came to me and and Bendo stood up and he was going to be cracked. You know, just they were just cracking us around to wake us up. And Bendo went to crack me and his nephew, Anthony Delevo said, Uncle Tony, don't hit this kid to me. He goes, he's a good kid. He goes, he just drives them around when they do all their craziness. So he saved me Anthony. And I had told this before and Bendo took out a lot of money and he goes here, go get us coffee. So I had to run and get them guys coffee. And when I came back, it was a switch. They were friendly again with us. And they're like, you know, don't fight in our bars. You're making us look bad, you know, you know, whatever. So there was a bunch of times like that fighting their bars and stuff. And then at that time when we got in trouble, Bruno wasn't out. So he would have came and helped us that time. It's talked talked for us. But he was he had like a few months ago to get out of jail. So then Bruno came out and yeah, it was it was for me. It was the last of the raw. I was with Bruno from 1989, Scott 2000. He was murdered in 2003. November 03. Yeah, November 23, 03 up after a Sunday night card game up. And that's another thing. I was living in a nice little section outside Springfield was probably like 1015 at night. And a girl calls me up from the social club and says, you know, you ain't going to believe this. And I'm like, what? She said, Bruno just got shot. And I'm like, come on, will you nuts? Because whoever thought that was it happened, you know, Scott. And I shot down to the club right away. And I ran into his son Victor was there. And he took it bad. You know, of course, it's his father. And he, you know, he was saying to me, we got to find out who did this. He was beside himself. And so there was a ton of feds on the scene, state police, everything. And right after they were just going to know what the initial what was the initial belief that this came from a rival or that did you think that this actually you it was so many different mind to think New York called this in. No, I don't think at that time they even thought in a million years New York did it, you know, there was some there was a few different things. But no one thought at that time, as far as what I heard, they didn't think New York did it. But it just thought he had a problem with a guy over a bar, that kid Frankie Roach, because he learned the bar, the kid who ended up shooting him, he went in Bruno's bar and smashed the whole bar up. And, you know, looking back now, that was a perfect opportunity to use the kid and say, hey, Bruno's going to come get you. So they pumped the kid up, you know, whoever. And but there was people convicted of it. And yeah, so we didn't know, we didn't know. And Victor, the son was going crazy, because he didn't know if it was somebody he knew if it was a, you know, he didn't know. So he was more, you know, going crazy over that, which can't blame him. He was close. You know, he's Bruno had five boys and Victor was very close to him. And after they took Bruno on the emblems, I jumped in my car. I told Vic, I said, look, I got to get out of here, you know, just a lot of heat. And at the time, I was still on the phone. And so I shot over to Anthony, or a lot of house that same night, but now it's probably 1150 at night. And I come to his house and I knock on the door and nobody answers. And nobody was home. I thought, you know, the cars were in the driveway, you know, maybe he's not home. And just when I was ready to leave, he opened the door. And I bang, I said, you know, he said, who is it? I said, it's chicky, open the door. He opened it. And of course, I told him, I said, I said, you know, what just happened? He goes, no. And I said, well, Bruno, they stopped Bruno. I think he's dead. And of course, you know, he said, no, I can't believe it. Oh my God, who would have done that and all this? And he said, come on in, come on in. And when I went in his house, Scott, he shut the door, you know, for me to come in. And on the side of the door around the wooden case of the front door was a shotgun just sitting there. So then I'm like, well, you know, maybe that's, you know, for him, that could be normal though, because he always had son. But you know, I think looking back now, what I know, I think maybe he was just assuming, you know, take somebody came and, you know, who knows? I don't know what he was assuming. I'm just guessing. So yeah, so he sent me, you know, at the time he said, go over Victor, you know, because everybody went to Bruno's house and help his wife and the kids and talk to them. And he said, go over there and just tell Victor, you know, I'll come see him tomorrow morning. Don't go crazy. You know, it's his son. We get I get it, but don't do nothing stupid until I talk to him tomorrow. And yeah, so for a few years, it went where nobody knew really. And it was a hush hush and everybody was guessing it could be him. It could be that one. It could be this one, but nobody really knew except for the people that were actually involved, you know? And and yeah, so so it just started off like that. And then we got picked up in the end of 2004 by the FBI for that for that sports book making case. And on the indictment was myself, Anthony Rolado, Adolfo Bruno, which I guess they called him an unindicted co defendant because he was murdered. Right. So they came and picked us up in sometime in early 2004. Obviously 2004. And and another kid that was just a regular kid. He was a worker. Nice kid. He was never involved after that, but he was in the indictment, too. And yeah, we ended up Anthony was at that time when we got picked up. I think he was in jail or he got sent back to jail right right before that. And I think a parole violation. So he was in prison at the time when I played a guilty. He played a guilty on his own because he I think he was already in prison. And yeah, I went away and we went through all the channels in court. I played a guilty and I ended up leaving for jail. I can believe it was 2006. Early 2006, I left for jail and he was already in jail at the time. And yeah, and they designated me to USP Canaan in Waymark, Pennsylvania, which was a heavy hit or joint. It was a penitentiary. And I was only behind the wall a little while and I had some medical issues due to my thing with the Navy that accident of the Navy. So when I first got there, they sent me to MCC Manhattan in Southern District, New York. And I'm going in there. I'm a bookmaker. I mean, in there is guys fighting cases talking about serious guys in there. And they yeah, they happen to put me in the hole for like two days just to get me, you know, get everything paperwork and everything. And then I ended up, they put me on a floor and I went up to the floor. It was I think it was 11 South and MCC Manhattan. And I went up there and I came in and it's like it's an octagon unit. All the guys are coming up to you. I mean, you know, they feel you out within an hour. They know you're Italian. They figure out where you're from. They got a good system to find it out. And I'll never forget it's got a tan guy, good looking guy comes over, he's walking over to me. And at the time I had no idea who he was, Scott. And a tan, good head of hair, you know, he comes over, he goes, you know, he's talking to me a couple hours. What are you doing? Where are you from? You know, we're going back and forth. So he goes, if you want to eat tonight, just an MCC Manhattan, you don't have it like a like a cafeteria. You eat in your pretty much like in your cell in your unit, you eat, they bring the food to you. And the guy said, come on and eat, come on and eat with us tonight. You can come eat with us tonight. No problem. And I say, yeah, OK, because I didn't know anybody at that time. And so I ended up sitting with like four guys and they introduced themselves. And it was I mean, looking back now, it was unbelievable. But I had no idea who they were. No idea. So the guy sits down and he goes, you know anything to drink? And I said, it's all right. I'll wait for comments here. He goes, buddy, comments here and coming for another week. So trust me, take something. I know problem. And he goes, how are you doing? I go, how are you doing? I know Chicky. And I go, yeah, I saw him. Chicky goes, yeah. He goes, I'm Vinny. I go, I'm Vinny. And it was Vinny Baciano. Vinny Gorgias, right? Yeah. Yeah. And then next to him, another guy introduced me in Albanian. He goes, I'm Alex. Alex Rudolph, right? Lenny Lenny was Lenny was next to me. Lenny Kaladi, I think his name was Lenny. He was he was under Alex. He was part of Alex's crew. It was Nikki, Lenny, the whole crew. They were all in there. So at night as time went on at night. It was the Albanian mob. And you're with, you know, at that time, the acting boss or at that point, he might have actually been boss or Michael was. Michael knows might have been boss, but it was after seeing the flip. But this was a Boston five families and a guy that we can. We could go down a rabbit hole with, you know, I just and I'm sorry to diverge here, but I'm just I want to get your opinion on this. Yeah. I have such an issue with the idea that the federal government would take a boss, cut a deal with him, wire him up to ensnare the guys that are reporting to him, the guys that he is telling what to do. It just it's all backwards. I mean, the whole point is crazy guys to go get the big guy. And I'm not excusing Vinny Bassiano. He was a most likely someone who murdered multiple people. I'm sure their families are are heartbroken to this day, and I'm not trying to diminish that. But I just think there are there are right ways to go about things in terms of taking down a guy like Vinny Bassiano. And yeah, he's got he's got an appeal right now. And this very question is going to be posited. Did he have and I want to get your take on it. A, the idea that they would make a deal with a boss to wire up on his subordinates. But B, what about the argument that he had no choice but to answer? Because I was just going to say that that could cost him his life. If you know, in his head. Right, I just think it's disgusting that they would do that. But it goes to show you the government will stop at nothing if they want certain people at the time. I didn't know. But maybe looking back now, what I know now, maybe he was a little too flamboyant for the government. Maybe he was like they had that, you know, and they wanted it was they got him off the street. It looked better for the government. I think I'm guessing. No, that is what they thought. They thought it was crazy. A new John Gotti and people were saying right, both in the government. Yeah, and Scott, we were up on the roof because you have like the walk. They had a couple of basketball courts up on the roof of MCC Manhattan. That was up there with Vinny one day. And he was, he was sitting. There was a little picnic table. We were sitting on the roof and we were talking. And Vinny was telling me Vinny's very smart. He's a true gentleman. He knows how to speak. He's very smart. He was working on his case all day long. He'd be in the law library working on his thing. And then this happened today. He was up on rec with me and we're sitting at a picnic table. Alex was there and then he said, can you imagine this? And I was, I didn't know about his case that much. I really didn't. And he goes, can you imagine this? He goes that. And he said a derogatory thing about Joe Mazzina. He goes with that low life did what he did to me. I was so mad. Like he said a few things crazy. But he said, and I didn't know who this guy was. I just know a lot of now cause he came out on the circuit. But he said, but my, but my man, Dominic Cicalli, he broke my heart. And Vinny told me that he said the other guy, he was mad. He wanted, you know, he said crazy things. But he said, and it's clear as day. He said, and like I said, I didn't know who Dominic Cicalli was then. And he said, yeah, but my main man, my guy Dominic, he broke my heart. Right. And he said that to me. I think it should be a lesson actually. And I'm not here to teach the best way to be a mob guy, but I studied this stuff and I analyze it. And I just look at Vinny Beshiano and Dominic Cicalli. And I'm not saying that Dominic Cicalli didn't appear like he could be a very valuable asset and that he didn't check several boxes that you want to check if you're going to bring someone close to you. But the way I look at it is Vinny Beshiano didn't know Dominic Cicalli until 1999. No, that's 100% true. So by the time he's bringing him in and making him a couple of his crew and then eventually, you know, for a brief period of time on a ruling panel, this is only a guy you've known for three, four years. I understand, I agree. I know they got really close and I'm not diminishing. Right, right. I just, if I'm a boss, I'm not bringing anybody close to me that I haven't known for 40, 50 years. 100%. Easier said than done, obviously. Right. Well, on a note to that, how many people knew Joe Mazzina for 40 years? How many people knew all the people that turned before Joe Mazzina? So that 40 years went out the window with all of them. So, you know? Yep, yep. It's a whole other thing when you're facing, you know, lights out, life sentence or death penalty, a whole different, you know, I mean, I guess for some people, you know, they're just, and in today's era, like we know we can go there after, it's over. I mean, it's over. Whatever they're doing, they're doing it, but they're all going legit and they're just... It's on YouTube now. Exactly. You got to, you know, probably without question the most compelling mafia don of this era, but arguably one of the most powerful mafia bosses of this era, according to the government, yep, has a YouTube show or now it's on Patreon, but has a presence as a podcaster. So I just hate them. It says something about, and I'm talking about Joey Merlino. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It says something about where we are in La Cosa Nostra in 2024. Right. And then let's be honest, I watch him, I subscribe to the Patreon, I like him. We had a mutual... Yeah. Go ahead. I like Joey too. I mean, I, you know, in a certain way, I want the best for the guy. Absolutely. He's very cosmetic. And he seems, hey, I don't know about whatever the government says because 90% of the time you can't believe them anyways, but he's doing good. I mean, he's given back to the communities and it must be really making the government mad because by him going on, he's showing them, hey, listen, I'm done with that. You can do whatever you want, but I wouldn't be doing this if it wasn't for them. You know what I mean? Yeah, so, you know, we don't have to go down that rabbit hole, but if it's okay, Chick, I want to go back for a second. And I know it's a sensitive subject and, you know, we can, you know, anything that you're not comfortable talking about or what I want to talk about, go back to a big Al Bruno and his assassination in November of 03 and talk about the politics that were at play behind it. I always like, you know, looking, you know, scratching beneath several layers. I mean, there's the, we all know about, he got murdered, Frankie Roche coming out of Mount Carmel after a game on Sunday night. It was on Eve's birthday. He had finally kind of reached the apex of his career in the last couple of years of his life and become a skipper. And it's, and again, I'm just going to kind of give my take on it and I'm going to turn it over to you for analysis. I think it was kind of like, be careful what you wish for in the sense that I'm not saying he couldn't have been a good cop or wasn't a good cop because he, for all intents and purposes, tell me if I'm wrong. He was kind of a cop under the Scabelles in the 90s. It just wasn't kind of as bad as he was a leader. Right. So, but it looks like to me, and in my reporting on it, I've done quite a bit of reporting in the lead up to Bruno's demise. There were a lot of different factors going on. And it wasn't as simple, and I'm not trying to give Anthony a free pass here because he obviously benefited from it. I'm talking about Anthony Arlotta and was a part of it. It was a part of the conspiracy, but I think sometimes it gets, and I was guilty of this at first too, this narrative that the protege took out the mentor to take over his rackets and become a mafia boss. That's what happened. I mean, that is what happened, but it's, I think it's much more complicated than that. And I think no matter whether Anthony Arlotta was in the picture or not, things were trending downward for Big Al with New York. I mean, that's what my source on the West side tell me that it wasn't just what was going on in Springfield that Bruno was ruffling a lot of feathers with the guys in the Bronx and Harlem. Right. I mean, would you say that's accurate? Yeah, I would say that's accurate. And I think a lot of heat was brought down to Bruno from John Bologna too. Because remember, Bologna was coming down. Bologna was coming down a lot. I used to see, I had back in that time when Bologna was coming down, I had a like a restaurant pizza shop and grinders and pizza. And Anthony Bologna would come in a Saturday afternoon all the time and eat at my place and sit in the back. And so I knew Bologna pretty good. I mean, not that I did anything with him or talked to him. You know, hello, goodbye, bus chops with him at the table with Anthony, but no, he ruffled a lot of feathers in our area. But he was a big part of the complete destruction, unfortunately, of our area, you know, he really was. Big John, we're talking about John Bologna. Yeah, Bologna, yeah, Big John. But doesn't the fact that, so at the time the acting boss of the Genovese was little Artie Nigro and Big John, who turns out to be a huge rat. I mean, for years, he'd been ratting on everybody. State police, FBI, he didn't discriminate. And doesn't it say something about what New York, how New York is viewing Bruno if they felt like they had to send one of their guys to kind of like look after him? I doubt that was ever going on with the Chebellies or an Anthony DeLauge, they weren't getting, oh, they weren't being, somebody wasn't being sent from a different state to make sure they were doing with what the guys in New York wanted them to do. And that's what happened with John Bologna being sent at Artie, or not, Artie sending John Bologna at Al. Right, in my opinion, I mean, this is only my opinion, Bologna was pumping up Springfield to Artie Nigro, like saying, oh my God, you should see what they got over there, the rackets. And I think he was pumping it up a lot more. And maybe, I don't know for sure, I'm just guessing, but maybe that got Artie pumped up, like, oh, maybe I'm not getting what I think I should. I don't know what they're saying, I'm just guessing on that. You don't understand what I'm saying. I think Bologna was really pumping up to them guys down there, oh, you don't know what they got, you know what I'm saying, I think. And then there was another situation I want to get your take on. So before little Artie becomes acting boss, the guy that they were reporting, the guy that the West Siders, when I say West Side, the Genovese, you know, sometimes I go to inside, people within the Genovese call themselves the West Side, but we'll just call them the Genovese. The, I guess I'm wondering is with the Genovese and Bruno, it looks like there were other issues, one of them being the guy before little Artie was a guy they called Farby, Frank Serpico, who they called Farby, and Al was very close to Farby. Right. Farby died of cancer. Yep. And or got sick with cancer and little Artie slides into that spot. I had heard from people in the Genovese that there had been some, and again, I'm doubting that you can speak to the specifics of this, but I'm just wondering if you ever heard the rumors that there had been some, a couple of instances where Artie, before Artie became boss, felt slighted by Bruno in some social situations, kind of dismissing him. And then a couple of years later or however many years later, now that guy that, if it's true, felt disrespected, now he's your boss. Right. No, I understand what you're saying, but I personally, maybe I wasn't at that level high enough to, but I never heard that from who I was around, I never heard that, but I'm just being honest with you, I wasn't around. That would probably be more Anthony would hear something like that than me, you know? And then what about, did you hear anything about the, there was a sit-down with Al in Florida that didn't go so well and I know- I did hear about that, I don't know the specifics, but I did hear that he was not too happy how it turned out, that I did hear that. Started- But I didn't know the specifics, but I know he wasn't too happy with how it turned out. He thought it was gonna go one way and he didn't. Was it a secret deal that he got screwed out of about- Yeah, and he never got that he could, they pretty much told me not getting your money back. Right, and he got scammed and felt like that Artie should have his back and Artie didn't have his back. So you have that going on. And then I'm sure you know about this situation and I definitely want to get your opinion on this. At some point in the last six months of Big Al's life, a 302 surfaces and a 302 is a debriefing document, but again, there's levels and layers to this. Just because there's a 302 with your name on it does not mean that you flipped. It does not mean that you debriefed. 302s can be filed almost for anything. Yeah, it's a discretion of the FBI agent what they want to put in there. It's not like they're got it on tape and it's what you're getting his aspect of it. His, what he thought, you know? Well, you're also get, well, I think a lot of people are the opinion and I'm talking about people that are like shot callers in organized crime that somebody's, you know, that that could order in theory, could order a murder. I think sometimes they have a, they misconstrue what exactly the protocol of a 302 is. So in this case, nobody was saying that Big Al Bruno debriefed or cooperated. What was being said and what came out in this 302 was that there was a conversation that Al had had with a FBI agent when they were both going to get a pizza and they were taking out pizza. They were at a fundraiser at a restaurant, a fundraiser. Right, and they had a conversation that maybe lasted 10, 15 minutes. Just basically, hi, how you doing? People got to understand that you spend your whole life playing cops and robbers. Like, you know these guys. So something you're just gonna be cordial. And Al probably got a little loose lip with what he said. He probably shouldn't have said that. But to make it look like he was cooperating was just a false narrative. Absolutely. Felix Triangese, he gets the hold of this thing and starts waving it around New York City. Trying to show anybody that would look and undermine Bruno. So again, that wasn't Anthony. There are a lot. No, no, I never, you know. I know. That was Felix. And him and Bruno never really, I mean, they got along cause they had him, but they were never best trummy buddies when they were on the street, even earlier, you know? Meaning Felix and Alex, or sorry, Felix and Anthony? Al, yeah, they knew. In other words, they definitely had to respect each other, but it wasn't, you know what I'm saying? Bruno, what you're saying, Triangese, he wasn't incredibly close to Bruno. Right, exactly, right. Which plays into the fact that he was trying to get Bruno killed. And I think, and tell me if I'm wrong, I think in Felix's mind, Anthony, there a lot of it wasn't gonna take over, he was gonna take over. Right, right, right. Well, that's what they were, that's what they were putting his head from what I hear. Right. So what do you feel about just the 302 situation and? I see, if they're gonna bring up the 302 on Bruno, then, I mean, for 10 or 15 years, he played racquetball in the 80s with Matty Ryan, just with attorney and nobody said nothing then. So did Bruno, I mean, do I believe in my opinion, Bruno was in any way, you know, that what they're saying, absolutely not. Do I believe he made, not friends, but do I mean he kept them guys where they would see him and say, hey Bruno and talk to him and he could have a report with them, you know, not the way people are, some people are saying. But yeah, you know, he did, that's how he was. He was, anytime he'd see you, hey, what's up buddy, he didn't care, you know, and he was just, you know what I'm saying? And that's how he was, it wasn't like he was given secrets or nothing like that. You know, I just think it was, in my opinion, it was an opportunity that they saw and they said, we're gonna use this, this is what we're gonna do now, we're gonna use this. And that's what I think. Right, and there's no doubt Anthony took advantage of the situation and it's all a way for him to kind of be slick and savvy and use all the crazy drama that was going around him to his advantage. But again, just like I said before with big Al Bruno, be careful what you wish for, same with Anthony. He became boss and was officially boss for like six, seven years, but it wasn't a run. He was constantly in and out of jail on bond restrictions, on parole or probation. He had followed all the time, his truck was wired up. I mean, it was tough. I mean, it was a crazy time. It wasn't a glorious run as boss of the Springfield Group. And so let's bring us to, we don't have to talk names, but there is something there still. I don't think it is the shadow of what it once was. I don't know how much you want to talk about your nephew, but your nephew who was a Latin King, an Italian Latin King that became a boss. Yeah, I guess, yeah. And you guys lived together. We lived together for several years. When he got out of the first prison for Dix, he really didn't have nowhere to go. And I had a house at the time. So of course, back then, my brother came to me, his father and said, he's got nowhere to go. I said, well, you can come in and get his life straight with me, and we ended up sustained together for a while until that biggest boss in East Coast history, December 5th, 2019. And they tried to like jam you up in that with like a bullseye, a possession of a gun and ammunition, but it was a federal. They found it and they only could charge for the ammunition because it was Smith and Wesson. Your lawyer was brilliant though, too. Yeah, he was great. Dan Hagen, great lawyer, really good. The way he argued it was just like, yeah, they weren't, this wasn't something that was aimed for Chick, this had specific warrant that was meant to go after a specific part of the house had nothing to do with where Chick lived or. Exactly. You know, I'm glad that you got clear of that, but the fact that. Yeah, yeah, so. I mean, again, I want to talk. So I ended up doing, I had like four months in because they revoked my bond for some investigation and then they had to let me out again, but because of COVID, during COVID, they revoked my bond. And then I was in like four months and my lawyer got me back out on a $30,000 bond and then I ended up pleading guilty and I think they were looking to give me 14 and 15 months for ammunition. And my lawyer fought it and he said, hey, the kids got four months in already, COVID's running ragged and he's got an illness from the military, you know? And he fought and got me a year house arrest. Just so people understand, the warrant had nothing to do with Chickie. Nothing, yeah. They had no business going in the part of the house where Chick lived. Right. The fruit and poisonous tree, the warrant had to do with Chick's nephew who got arrested and eventually convicted and anything that you're looking and related to that is fair game, but you can't use a warrant. In that case, I don't know if it's officially illegal or not, but that didn't fly and it shouldn't. Right, right. Yeah. So yeah, you know, where we are today, I think it just kind of a snapshot. So your nephew and his people, the Latin King was a formidable group. Yeah. He was the Latin King's boss on the East Coast, New England. Right. I think it's a very big in Chicago and New York. Yeah. But they were, it looked like in some ways, they had almost supplanted the Italians as organized crime in the area. Right. They were using the old Bruno Club. Right. Yeah. So I just think, just like I said, like all these things that I'm talking about where you just kind of look at a situation and the situation speaks volumes. Exactly. Like doesn't this say something about where Springfield organized crime is right now if the Latin Kings are in your old headquarters? Right, I would say so. And they had several parties there. I was at a couple of them, just like being security, not for them, for the club. You know, I was helping the club, you know what I mean? And yeah, they had a couple of summits there with, you know, 700, 800 kids from all over the East Coast came to it. And the FBI was out there, the state police, they were, I mean, it was more cameras, it was unbelievable, but, you know, they were other than having a party and cooking and having music, they weren't doing anything. So there was no arrest or nothing when they were pulling them over, checking their cars and stuff. So. So, you know, Chick, let's talk about where you are today. You're doing some pretty exciting things. Yeah, I'm blessed. Yeah, thank you, I'm blessed. Nothing to do with your old life. Turn around your new leaf. This is kind of the second chapter or the third chapter. Maybe the second chapter was going to the military. Right, right. And you're involved with some cool projects and money to tell some people about them and where they can kind of check them out. Yeah, last Friday night in Hartford, we just, I was never an actor, but I tried out for a couple of things and I was blessed. We shot a movie called The Featherweight. It's the story of Willie Pep from Hartford, the professional fighter, The Featherweight, 229 professional fights. James Madio, he was in Band of Brothers. He was in Hook, down a ton of movies. He was in The Offer about the making of The Godfather. He was in that series. He plays Columbo's bodyguard. He's a sword guy, but he plays a good part. Was it Joe Columbo? He plays Joe Columbo's bodyguard in the movie. And Leonardo DiCaprio's Apian Way is the production house who took on the productions and some great actors. And myself and another guy, an ex-street guy, with the Irish guys, Brian Hoyle, who was, his good friends with Rexie, they've been together forever and they owned some bars together at one time. Just let people know Brian Hoyle's another guy that is turning over a new leaf. Yup, yup. He was affiliated with OC in Western Massachusetts and... 18 years in prison he did. 18 years in federal prison total. And now both of you guys are... Yeah, we were both in it. We had talking roles. Not too long, but it was good. We went and seen it Friday, the red carpet event. So that's going good. We got a couple of other things coming up and Brian was in a project. I was under house arrest, so I couldn't go. Brian was in a project with John Gotti Jr. They flew them out to Miami and he's shooting a Whitsack mafia. They shot a couple of episodes of that. So just going in the right direction and trying to do the right thing. And I got three grandchildren. I got another two coming this month, twins are coming. So five grandchildren. And I'll go back to where you wanna go, but the main reason that I appreciate you having me on is that change is possible. And like I tell people, not that I'm anything special or anything, but you can change if you really wanna change without becoming an informant, without going to do with getting 30 years and then deciding you wanna change. You can change. And not what I was lucky enough. I never took that oath or got in that serious. So I was blessed enough where I could walk away and just say, hey, God bless. I'm so friendly with a lot of people. As you can see the paint, my pictures I put up and stuff. I go have coffee with Mario Fiori who was a hundred years old, legend. Gee, man, that's the OG's OG. He's a great guy. We go help, yeah. Let's hopefully we can maybe get him on for an interview at some point. Yeah, I don't know about that. He's still old school, but he's a great guy. We have coffee a couple of times a week. He's a real gentleman. He tells me some funny stories about back in the day in Las Vegas with all the fancy girls, the Liza Manelli. The Ratbag. Yeah, yeah, he's got pictures. You wanna believe the pictures he got? Yeah. And he's a gentleman. I like talking to him and I learn a lot from back in the day as far as back in the junket days to Vegas. He was running travel junkets. Yeah, yeah. And like I said, and now let's face it, Scott, as you know, about a year and a half ago, Massachusetts came legal for gambling. So we have MGM and now it's legal. Everything's legal now. Marijuana business is legal now. Marijuana is legal, gambling is legal. That's it. And like I was saying before, shy larkin with the banks ain't shy larks. Don't pay your mortgage for three months and you're gonna wish somebody came and talked to you and let it instead of take your house. Yeah. So it's going in a new way now. Credit card companies. What's that? The credit card companies. Oh, exactly. 33%, come on. They're losing you through the roof. It's crazy. So yeah, so I'm just blessed. And like I said, and then we grew up as teenagers with Freddie G's and Tai G's. They were with the Anthony. Thank you for reminding me. Just let's finish on that note. So Freddie, the G's brothers were enforcers for Anthony Aralata. Freddie right now is facing, we got convicted of the Bruno murder and now is facing a murder case from in prison but that murder honestly was a public service. I'm not gonna... Yeah, yeah. He killed Whitey Balder. Absolutely. The Irish mob boss that was a cooperator. And I'm not saying he should have been killed. No, no, absolutely. I know. I'm saying he should have been killed for the women and children that he... I'm not talking about gangsters. I'm talking about... He killed women and rape. And he raped children. He was a child predator. That's a part of his story that doesn't get enough run. The movie mass really sanitized it. But he was a predator. And he killed women in addition to his gangster stuff. And I don't blame him for what he did. Nonetheless, he's gonna be going on trial for it. What was your... This happened five, six years ago. He was in the hole for two, three years. Yeah. I think he did more than that. I think for closer to four or far and a half years he was in the hole. Just got charged for six months. Right, two-way charged, I'm right. When you first heard about it, what was your reaction? I mean, I knew Freddy's take on informants. I knew that. But like I said, I mean, what do you say? I mean, if he's gonna spend the rest of his life in jail, I mean, I guess you become... Now he's like the OG of jail. I mean, wherever he goes, you know? But yeah, Freddy... What was he like? What kind of... I'll tell you the truth. Ty, Freddy was a smart kid. And he didn't fly off the handle. Freddy was very smart when it came to stuff like that. Ty was the one that flew off the handle. You never knew what you were getting with Ty, you know? But Freddy was very level headed. I mean, you know, he could get things done as we know now. Good looking guy, good looking guy. Oh yeah, yeah. He always had the girls and everything. And I'm still friends. I talked to his family to this day, his cousins. Now, they've got a good family. And yeah, I mean, they're just dealing with Freddy. He's got a son and a daughter. You know, they haven't seen their father. And his brother, Ty, got a daughter in her early 20s. So at the end of the day, it's the families that suffer when the men go away, you know? I know Freddy's daughter was a soccer player in college. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And I know also, I don't know if you know this, but you know, Freddy had a personal beef with Whitey because of a guy named... Right, a guy they were with in state prison, right? Yeah, Freddie Weichel, who got framed by Whitey and had to do 30 some years in prison for a murder he didn't commit. And got out recently and is getting, hopefully, gonna get a big settlement for the federal government. Chick, this was amazing, man. Thank you so much for... Oh, absolutely. Thank you for having me, like I said. Just remember the movie, The Featherweight is coming out. It'll be out probably within a month because we did the, like I said, we did the final red carpet. So I'm looking forward to it. And like I said, anything positive, whether it's the podcast and or other things, I'm just blessed that I made it out and I made it through everything, you know? What, tell everybody where they can find you on like Instagram. I'm on Instagram under my name, Chicky, maybe Scott can put it in the description, Chicky Chigatelli with underscore at the end. And I'm on Facebook, Chicky Chigatelli, you know? I put funny things up and I just, you know, you'll get a little sense of craziness. I am, you know, I just put up my grandkids. I just put up everything, but I have fun with it. So if they ever want to find me or anything, you can go right on the Instagram or Facebook. You look too young to be a grandfather, Chick. I know. Well, I don't know. I'm a 56, so I don't know. Well, thanks, Chick. This was awesome. Thank you, Scott. We're gonna be, you know, I just wanted everyone to know that we were kind of slowing down a little bit on our interviews at the end of 23. We had some, you know, resource issues and booking issues, but Chick is kind of gonna be tipping off a cavalcade of stars that we're gonna lay out over the next couple of months. We're gonna have a lot more long interview content and a lot of guys that you haven't heard from before like Chick shedding fresh insight and perspective on maybe some old stuff, but also some new stuff. So Chick, this was great. We're gonna have you back soon. Thank you, Scott. You were considered a... I appreciate it. You're an OG and that's, you know... I don't know about that, but thank you. Well, you're an OG now, bro. I'm an OG now. Yeah, that's true. I'm pushing 50. But the OG for me is old grandfather. Right, yes. All right, thanks, Chick. Thank you, Scott. Have a great day. For Chick and Western Massachusetts, I'm Scott Bernstein, OGPod, out.