 Hello, and welcome to the San Jose State University iSchool's LIS Careers Podcast. My name is Kim Doherty and I'm delighted to welcome Shelly Sandin, the senior team manager and head of the Information Center at Charles Schwab to our podcast series. As many of you may know, Charles Schwab is not only one of the most respected personal financial services organizations in the world. It's also located in the Bay Area in Northern California. So Shelly, I think, has not only really interesting insights to share with all of you today, but also for some of you who might be interested in internships or special projects, independent projects, those sorts of things, Shelly might be a good person to keep in mind as someone to reach out to. So just a little bit of background here. Shelly's had what I consider to be an extremely interesting career journey even before she landed at Schwab. And all of it has been in what we'd consider to be special library environments. She's been working for organizations rather than, for example, a public library or a school library, an academic library. So today Shelly's going to share with us where her career path has taken her, what she's learned along the way, and how she's moved so successfully from one organization to another. Because I know that's something that a lot of us sort of not worry about, but have in the back of our minds, if I needed to switch to another organization or I simply wanted to take my career in a new path or new direction, would that be possible? And what would that look like? How would I do that? So I'm going to start by saying, Shelly, let's start with your current position and could you tell us a bit about your specific responsibilities and what might a typical day or week or month look like for you with the understanding that probably there's no similarity between them? Exactly. Yes, I've got responsibility over three physical information centers, still a little bit of a throwback. As I know, those are going away more and more in the corporate world, but Schwab is committed to having at least a few physical spaces and we have one here in San Francisco, one in Denver and one in Austin and we maintain physical collections there. That is probably the smallest part of my role. Since I joined Schwab about two and a half years ago, we've worked to make sure that all of our constituents understand what we can do for them, primarily in the realm of research. So we also do a fair amount of research provisions so people can come to us with a variety of questions and we can do everything from a very simple, I need this article to I need a full overview of this particular area of the industry in which we provide them with the deliverable of findings and things like that. That is a very big portion of my role in what we're doing. I also have all of those administrative responsibilities that fall in between. So vendor management, contract negotiations, we are in the middle of a software implementation right now, instituting a large LMS, replacing a very small portal trying to bring a number of systems together. So it's a wide variety of things and it's pretty enjoyable as a result because I'm always doing something different. And when you said, I'm going to back you up for just a second here, you mentioned providing deliverables in terms of research. Do you find that your researchers, the people who, the information people who are working for you, are they doing analysis as well as information delivery? Is that what they're being asked to do or is it more simply information delivery? A little bit of both. We don't do a lot of deep dive analysis. We don't have the expertise for that and we remind our constituents of that all the time. But we do try to at least highlight themes. If we're seeing trends across a variety of resources, if we see the same concepts popping up over and over again. So it can be everything from information provision to this is what we're seeing across the literature and here's all the literature for you to review. But we're not doing as much of that deep dive analysis as much as I think some of our business partners would like us to do that. We don't have the time, the resources or the expertise to do that and we make sure that they understand that. That said, we've also grown the amount of research we're doing exponentially in the last two years. So people still have an appetite for what we're giving them and given that we work with a lot of folks in our strategy roles that becomes, you know, they're perfectly capable of doing the analysis and doing some of those deeper dives, but they need all of that different information to do that. So it makes sense. And I know one of the things that's happening in some special libraries, especially in law firms is end user training in helping individuals within the organization do their own research using the databases and the tools and information tools and resources that you for example are licensing for them. Are you finding that end user training is starting to be part of what your information professionals are doing or is that not the case? We do a certain amount of what I call orientation and training and that's more of a introduction to the information center. We're doing less hands-on database training primarily because of the types of resources we have here in-house and the licensing agreements around those. That said, when I was at, when I've been at law firms, a substantial amount of training. We used to do a lot of database training and the one thing I've always encouraged my teams and even just librarians that I know throughout different businesses is don't be afraid of sharing what you know. We get a lot of, I learned early in my career that librarians who were afraid of giving up control of their resources or didn't want to share them for fear of being moved out or being considered irrelevant are no longer around. The ones who figured out, hey, if I can empower my users to do a certain amount of work on their own or a certain amount of research on their own should they choose, it's going to go a lot further. I think users as a whole realize pretty quickly how much information is out there and ultimately they do need help navigating that. But if we try to guard that too tightly, they will go around us or they will go through us and that's not good for anybody. I think that's a really good point because to your reference you were just making there, I think a lot of people have felt that if I share what I know then I won't be needed anymore and yet what happens is it's the exact opposite. If I share what I know then people understand the depth of what you know and are more likely to turn to you when they've expended sort of the limits of what they're able to do themselves. Exactly. The way I describe it to, especially people here at Schwab is you have a full time job. It is not your job to know where all of this stuff is, how to get at it, how to parse it necessarily. That's our job. That's what we're here to help you with. If you want to do it yourself, I'm happy to help you figure out a way to do that. Some of the resources we have are incredibly complex and frankly could be a full time in and of themselves so I think people learn pretty quickly like, oh yeah, I can have access to that. I'm happy to give them access. Once they get into it, they're like, oh wait, I use this once a quarter and I don't remember how it works so it takes me as long to get back up to speed as it would to just ask the information center to help me with this. That's a great approach and so since we sort of talked about whether or not information professionals are needing to be in a training mode, what skills would you say are most in demand in a role like you personally have as well as in the roles that your team have, your team members? I would say and not to sound trite but good old fashioned communication skills, being able to communicate clearly concisely, concisely being the operative word. When you're dealing with executives and senior leaders, they really don't have time for a lot of background or a lot of noise. You have to get to the point pretty quickly so being able to go in and confidently talk to them and sometimes that lies with not necessarily industry expertise but at least the subject matter that we're tasked with as far as resources. So being able to just carry that sort of executive presence that being able to carry yourself, being able to present. Those aren't things that at least I didn't learn in library school. I didn't learn about communications and building a PowerPoint deck and even just basic presentation skills and I think those are extremely important. I think that's a great point to make because I know when our students are in grad school, they are taught to use a very scholarly and academic approach to communication and it makes sense in that setting while they're going through grad school. But if they aren't encouraged to realize how different the business world is in terms of communication when they get into a special library setting, it will kill the confidence that people may have in their judgment. To your point, if you can't express something concisely and give just enough information rather than sort of all of the information that's out there, I think it can really be harmful to how seriously our viewpoints and our judgment are treated so I'm really glad to hear you say that. And I do think as well, you know, when I talk about, you know, we could have a whole hour conversation on the pluses and minuses of PowerPoint but the bottom line, a lot of organizations still rely on them, still rely on PowerPoint heavily and even just building a basic presentation, you know, the number of times I've been to conferences where I've seen a slide deck that is just so dense and it's not engaging and as a viewer, I'm not interested. I loot, you know, my attention wanders and I start looking at my phone and you really don't want to lose a room full of team members because you've put, you know, 20 bullet points on one slide. Right. So even just those basics around, you know, pick up a basic presentation book on how to build an engaging PowerPoint presentation that can be super helpful as well. Okay. I'm making notes here so I can write this up for some students as well as in a blog post because I went through this with a number of my own students and ended up putting together a hit list of, here, before you do anything else, read these books about how to do a slide deck because as you mentioned, if you lose people's attention, you have lost your opportunity. And so I think that's a really, really good point to make. In terms, again, of your own job, what things have surprised you about the job? What things have surprised me? I would say probably the thoughtfulness with which Schwab makes decisions and not that other places I've worked haven't been as thoughtful. But Schwab is very much a self-generated environment. If you want something, if you want to learn something or if you need something, it's very self-motivating. They just expect you to be able to dig in and either get it done or figure it out. Everyone here is more than happy to help if you ask. It's not a sink or swim. You've got to figure it out on your own. But even as far as professional development, it's taught me that, again, that somebody's not going to tell me what I have to do for my own development track. I have to decide what's next. I have to decide what I want or what I need to grow my career. And that was a good reminder coming from environments where either there wasn't a lot of built-in professional development or the professional development was very prescriptive. It was already prescribed in a very specific way. Interesting. So being able to take control of my own professional development and really think about if I want to learn some new skills or if I want to learn more about the business in a particular way, that that's my responsibility. And it sounds like that is comfortable for you. You'd rather be in a self-management situation. You know, it's been more of a shift. I think I've come from certain environments where it has been so prescriptive that it took me a while to be like, oh, wait a minute. I have to figure, like, if I'm going to go learn about that area of the business, I need to just set up meetings with those vice presidents so I can go sit in their offices and ask them questions. Interesting. And that's a cultural thing here at Schwab that is really supported, whereas other places you may not get as much of that type of environment just because of the way people work or the projects people are working on. It really is corporate driven. Every company is a little different. That's a good observation because, and I'm sort of exposing how Shelly and I know each other here, an individual was interested in working with Schwab. And so Shelly and I ended up connecting this young woman into a role at Schwab. But when I spoke to her after she had joined Schwab, one of the things that she was most thrilled about was the amount of freedom to grow in terms of her own knowledge and the encouragement she received to do that. And if you're receiving that kind of encouragement from the sort of top level of the organization, if the CEO or the chief financial officer or just even department heads are willing to let you walk in and ask them questions without belittling you because you don't already know the answers, that sets up an amazing dynamic in terms of personal initiative, I would think, within the organization. Absolutely. I knew Schwab was a great company. It really is. All right. And so now I'd like to ask you some questions about your career. You've been out of grad school for quite a while. When you started your grad school program, do you remember what type of career or LAS work you had in mind when you were going through grad school? I knew from the beginning that I wanted to be in a corporate or business setting. I knew I wanted to be in a special library. OK. That came from, I call myself a little bit of the accidental librarian through a series of events. My senior year of college, I was put in a position where I thought, oh, I need to figure out something to do and I need to figure it out quick because my undergraduate degree was not in a field that I was passionate about. And I had happened, literally happened upon an article about library and information science in a, I don't even remember what magazine, but it was like just a popular press type of magazine. And it was talking about how this was a growing, a growing field and how, you know, special librarians, you know, the opportunities. And when they were describing it, I thought, wow, that's all the stuff I like to do. That's like fun. Yeah, that's like that's all the stuff I love to do. And it just so happened that I was at the University of Illinois at the time that had an amazing library school. So I came back from Christmas break, having decided to go to library school. And I knew that I wanted to be in a business setting. So that's, that's how that happened. OK. And then when you were going through your U of Illinois program, what courses did you take in that program that have continued to have relevance throughout your career, if any of them? That was probably the biggest challenge when I was there because there really was not anything. There weren't, there wasn't a very clear track for a business librarian. There was a class here, a class there. I believe there may have been a like a business reference sources class. Any of the online searching classes were really good, but they were limited by my by my by the end of my program. I actually had done an independent study with the Dean of the College where I kind of built my own curriculum and my own final project, which we were allowed to do because there just wasn't anything that really supported, you know, this as a career track. There were just bits and pieces. And it was, you know, you got to remember, it was the very early days of online searching. It was pre-internet when I was in school. So just learning a lot of that basic underlying structure of online databases was actually incredibly helpful. I probably still use that. I could probably rattle off dialogue, file numbers and dot commands. So which you laugh at your students are probably like, what is she talking about? No, actually, I you may be the only person I've talked to who also was pre-internet because it when I talk to students, one of the things I tell them is when you graduate with your degree, you have a knowledge base that you're graduating with. But keep in mind that at some point in your career, some sort of disruptive technology is going to appear on the scene that is going to totally disrupt what you're doing, how you do it, what you are capable of doing. And and for us, that was the internet. It just changed everything. And now looking at where careers are going, I I'm so curious to see if it's AI or the smart workplace or, you know, machine learning. What what is it going to be that totally changes how we do the work that we do in terms of finding and organizing and delivering information? So I I'm completely with you. I have one question, though, about that. One of the things that everyone who went through grad school the same time we did says is that the one thing that they have used over and over again is how to do a good reference interview. Yeah, actually, that's probably one that that bears repeating. And it's such a part of my DNA at this point. And I think it's the part of most library professionals, information professionals, DNA that I I forget to even call it out. Because we talk about it. I talk about it all the time, particularly in the group that I'm part of the larger group is full of data scientists. And and so they're really good at data. They're not always good at presenting. And they're also not always good at getting to the root of the question. People come and ask them for something and traditionally and I shouldn't say they're not good at that. They're it's not what they're trained in. I yeah, they're not trained to do that. And traditionally, you know, many years ago, it was OK, somebody asked for X, you give them X. And that's one one thing that I know we've always been beating the drum about here is like, you got to ask you got to ask those questions. You got to dive deeper because 90 percent of the time what people ask for is not what they need. It's not what's going to answer their questions. So, you know, we do that pretty much all day, every day. Cool. I, you know, I found that I for me, it's because I work with a lot of clients that I'm doing research and writing for. It's the same thing. A good reference interview saves you so much pain, so much. Yes, so many emails, so much back and forth. When I think, you know, the one thing I'd like to stress for any student coming up, as far as the reference interview is concerned and as far as that communication aspect, if you were on email number two or three, pick up the telephone. Oh, that's such a good point. It is an underused technology. I used not necessarily battle, but it was a conversation I used to have with some of my larger teams all the time. I'd get copied on something and I'd see like a five or six screen email and I'm like, what are you guys doing? Pick up this all, like the back and forth because we all know how ambiguous sometimes email can be and tone and just pick up the phone and talk it through. It can save you a tremendous amount of time. And this is coming from someone who hates talking on the phone. I'm, you know, always battling with myself, like, just pick up the phone. Yeah. But in the long run, it generally saves me even more time than an email does. So I love that. That makes so much sense. All right. So a next question. Over the course of your career, what work have you enjoyed the most or found most rewarding? So I'm going to assume that you've loved every place that you've worked. But in terms of the actual work that you have done, wherever you were, what have you enjoyed the most? What do you enjoy the most? Yeah, my probably as far as the nitty gritty, knee deep work, you know, being up to your knees and work. I love investigative research. The the the digging, the finding out that moment where you go, I got it. And and I get I get that in bits and pieces. I've had that in bits and pieces, I think, across many of my roles. I've had certain roles, though, where that's really what I did. And the other part of that would be being client facing and being able to work with external clients who because the proof is in basically that they keep giving you more business and that they like what you do and that they, you know, they they are giving you their pain for what you what you do is getting to interface with external clients. I've always enjoyed a great deal as well. Interesting. I love working with internal clients. Don't get me wrong. I just think it's just a different that the nature of the interactions are different because you're all on the same team per se and you're not, you know, more than once in dealing with external clients and specifically doing investigative research. There were times when I had to deliver bad news, so I had to get good at, you know, being interesting. Being fair and balanced in my delivery as far as, OK, I found out this information and you're probably not going to like it. But you'd rather know what than not know it. Exactly. So interesting. And and I would think one of the differences between working, doing investigative research internally versus being client facing is that your internal team, I don't want to say that they take it for granted that you have these amazing skills and you can do this really cool stuff, but they get used to it and they rely on it and and they respect it, but they're used to it. Whereas with people without, you know, when you're looking outward facing client facing, most clients don't have a clue how to do research. And so for those of us who do do research, it looks like we're doing magic. Yeah, it's really kind of fun. It's a bit of an ego rush every time. Oh, my God, I can't believe you saw that. You know, I can't believe you found that when you hear that five times in a week. It's pretty addictive. Yeah, I. Yes, I would agree. You can find that. How'd you find that? Oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. No, I didn't even know anybody could find something like a rock star. So for the students who are listening to this podcast, I will point out the downside of being really adept at investigative research and loving it is that it makes it really hard for you to go to bed at night. If you know, there's an answer to the question and you're you're just on the verge of finding it. It's like you can't make yourself stop. You can't make yourself give up and just say, I can't find this answer. So well, and that's what makes the difference between and again, this is a conversation I've had with many people in and outside of the industry, which is, you know, I've known a lot of really, really great researchers in my in my career. I've known a handful of really great investigators in my career. And there there's a difference. And I think the difference is that knowing when to stop, knowing, you know, when to take it a step further, when, and that's almost instinctual. I don't know. I've tried. I've been asked if I can teach that. I've been asked how I do it, and I'm not really sure. That's a great distinction. You're absolutely right. You know, in my role now, I think I'm a really great researcher because I'm not called on to do as much investigative work. I can do it when I need to. But it's just it's it's a slightly different set of skills. That is an excellent and very perceptive point. I had someone once say to me or maybe I read it somewhere that librarians love to do research. Other people like to find answers. Yeah. And it's kind of excuse me, a way of echoing what you're saying there. And this is a really good point for students who are thinking about research as a career path to sort of keep in mind what the difference looks like. And especially if you are in an organizational setting that is not a library setting, because in organizations, information is a strategic asset and it's used to support business decisions. And so you don't really have the luxury of just kind of wandering around and researching when you know that you have a very targeted set of of information that needs to be produced in order for people to base decisions on it. Yeah. So great point. All right. So I think just just to say one more thing about that. It's not necessarily knowing. All of the resources, but knowing the pathways to find those resources and being confident in that you know what's out there to search or you know what might be out there to search like what makes sense as far as what's available. I had when I was at one of the many law firms that I worked at, I had an attorney who probably once every eight to 12 months would get very frustrated because he would want a set of data. And every to 12 months, we would have this round robin of that nobody collects that data. What do you mean nobody collects that data? Somebody should collect that data. Great. Somebody should collect that data, but nobody does if we need, you know, and it was this back and forth. And every time he would ask, I would make sure to, OK, have I checked everywhere? I would ask experts that I knew I would ask other librarians who had been in the field longer than I had. I would I would go through my usual round of, you know, who's going to know if this exists just to make sure that I had my basis covered, even though I was pretty confident. But he, you know, and it was just a matter of being patient, being like, nope, this still doesn't exist. Still can't get that for you. You know, that's a great point because people who don't work with information generally seem to assume, and it makes complete sense that they would, that in some way or place, all information exists and can be accessed. And one of the hardest points to get across to people I have found is explaining to them the likelihood that this information exists correlates with why would someone collect it and who would be likely to do that. And if there's no financial or government responsibility, there's no financial benefit to a company to collect this information or government responsibility to collect this information. Many times that information simply will not exist. And to your point, that can be extremely frustrating when it seems like it would be so important for somebody to be collecting that information. Until there's a monetary value on that, until somebody can, you know, make money off of the harvesting and sharing of that data, or until that data is necessary for a larger purpose, where somebody's going to be motivated to collect it. It's not necessarily, it's, you know, yeah, it's going to exist in every single one of those, you know, S1 filings with the SEC, but it hasn't been extracted yet or it hasn't been collected in a central place yet. And you gave me a perfect segue, Shelley, into my next question by mentioning the law firm that you had worked for. Because one of the things that absolutely fascinates me is that you have successfully transitioned your information and management skills through a number of industries. And so my very quick research showed marketing and communication, accounting and management consulting, legal corporate, legal and corporate risk management and insurance. And now personal financial services. So my question is, did you ever worry that you wouldn't be able to master these completely new industries and information universes? And as part of that, did you have a specific process you used to jump into a new field and come up to speed quickly? I was never worried about mastering the field. I think that's because my stance, I think I mentioned it earlier, has been I don't necessarily need to be the subject matter expert in law or finance. I just need to know the resources and I can do that. My my confidence in just having gone through library school and knowing that I enjoy the work so much, it's easy for me to learn about the resources I need to go to to get answers. So I don't need to be an expert in those areas. It I'm not going to lie, it certainly helps having a knowledge base, you know, understanding how personal finance works, understanding how the industry works, understanding how the law works. It certainly helps tackle certain questions. But in the beginning, you know, I think about when I was at Skadden Arps and I was doing, we did a lot of work with our corporate group. So we were, I wasn't doing necessarily traditional legal research. I was doing a lot of deal research or looking for, you know, representative deals. It was in the days of live. Edgar was relatively new and and and doing a lot of research in there. And I didn't know what a reverse triangular merger was. People would come in and say, I need, you know, 10 examples of reverse triangular mergers in this industry with these, you know, capitalization terms. And it literally was like they were speaking a foreign language. I had no idea. So I would just not smile and take a lot of notes. I took, I wrote, I'd write down everything they said that I could. And then I would figure it out from there. I would probably three of the best investments I've ever made are the Barron's Dictionary of legal terms, the Barron's Dictionary of financial and investment terms, and the Barron's Dictionary of business terms. Interesting. I flipped through those and I'd look them up. I think my business terms dictionary is probably close to 15, 20 years old now. And I still use it, you know, there's there's definitely new stuff that I don't know, but there's still stuff that I have to look up sometimes. We have the benefit now of the Internet to where you can look up these terms and try to understand them so you know what you're looking for. And the same thing happened, you know, when I when I moved into my role here at Schwab, I'd never been in financial services before. And this was definitely one where I was like, OK, this is completely new. And, you know, we have a bunch of really great stuff already in the information center here. So I was able to just pull different industry reports and pull different books and start flipping through and getting familiar with, you know, terminology. And, you know, the same thing still happens sometimes. People start throwing out terminology that I don't understand. I just make sure I write it all down and I look it up. And that that helps me, you know, narrow in on my research and understand what exactly it is that they're asking for. So it's an added layer to a informational interview for sure, when I was entirely sure what they're talking about. It's like doing one in a foreign language. Exactly, you just write it all down and, you know, you try to get them to be explicit in their ask, like, what exactly do you need from me? Are you needing X or are you needing Y? Are you needing, you know, market size or are you needing market attitudes? What exactly do you need from me? That being able to be that specific in terms of what kind of information they need is incredibly helpful, I would think, because it sort of narrows down or limits, provides sort of guardrails on how broad you need to go in what your research is, which would be incredibly helpful. So I could talk to you for 12 hours, but I'm going to let you go with only two last questions. So my first one is, and I think this is a really important consideration for anyone who's looking at what I would call not special libraries as much as special librarianship, which is the sort of broad range of alternative ways people are using their information skills within organizations. So with that sort of definition, are there any changes on the horizon that you feel will have a strong impact on the work and or opportunities of information professionals in these types of alternative LIS or special librarianship type careers? That's a tough one. I think the two things that come to mind as a profession, I think companies are looking to us more and more around our expertise regarding knowledge management. We have a lot of different knowledge management efforts going on here at Schwab. I'm, you know, just responsible for my little corner of the world here. But more and more I see businesses needing help getting a handle or getting their arms around all the stuff that, you know, and I know knowledge management has has been on the radar for many years. It seems to come and go in in popularity, but and particularly businesses that haven't traditionally embraced it. I mean, in the last five to 10 years, I think law firms have embraced knowledge management far more. You can't, you know, every law firm I can think of has some sort of knowledge management function or some sort of knowledge management role or that they may not have had 10 years ago. I think leveraging machine learning and artificial intelligence is going to become bigger and bigger. And again, that comes from people needing to self serve. People needing to find things on their own. People needing to get it information when they can't get get to you. That doesn't make us irrelevant. It just makes us, you know, I think even more important. We just have to be able to lend our expertise to how to best employ those those things in our organizations. As part of those changes, do you see data, librarianship, data management eventually becoming as much of a career opportunity as more sort of the text management, the the the way we've typically thought of, you know, licensing databases that are our bibliographic databases and researching trends and those kinds of things. I'm used to working with text contact, excuse me, text content to do research rather than data and data mining. Do you think that eventually both of those two paths are going to come to equally define information skills and the kind of work we do? I think to a certain extent it's already here. I mean, we have there's such a movement around data science, which includes data management, which includes mining data. You know, every business out there anymore is mining their customer data, their user data. So figuring out how we can take what we've learned or what we learn as as information professionals and apply it in those areas. How can we also I don't mean to say sell ourselves, but some of what we have to do is educating people around us. Like we already know how we already have skills that can help you do this, right? We already have skills that can help you. You know, mine data, analyze data, build taxonomies, build taxonomies. Yeah, I was pleased as punch to find out that we hired a taxonomist here who's got a library degree. Well, they're part of the organization. He's he's handling something else. And I was like, as soon as I found out he was hired, I sent him an email. I was like, yeah, another one. What for our side? Yeah. So, you know, some of that comes down to selling yourself. Some of I think it's down to figuring out, you know, looking at not necessarily specific skills, like the specific I know how to research this thing and taking a step back and looking at those broader range skills. Like I can think strategically. I can, you know, I can build a search strategy. I can. So how do those apply to different areas? It's a really good point. OK. All right. And then final question, what advice would you give students still in grad school in terms of and you may have sort of just answered this question, but in terms of positioning themselves for jobs when they grab when they graduate or as they're building their careers. So the question really is around, how do you position yourself as an information professional? Well, that's so hard, you know, again, I think it is looking broadly at your skills. Obviously, the specific duties, the roles are always important in giving a flavor for what you can do. But being able to have a narrative around your skills and what you can bring to an organization, what you think those like how do those skills translate into value for the organization? And then being able, again, being able to clearly communicate that, you know, when you get as as somebody who's been a hiring manager for a long time and has had to hire many people, if I get 100 resumes and cover letters, it's very hard to, you know, there's a clear cut off when somebody maybe doesn't have the right credentials or doesn't have the right experience that we need. But after that, it gets really hard. So you need to be able to have a narrative and be able to tell your story. It's a great way of putting it. And that's it's not something that we normally cover in grad school because the focus is on specific skill sets, specific knowledge bases. But given how the landscape for information services and information skills is expanding, it really does become imperative to be able to match what you can do to the needs that are actually out there. So I think I think the way you encapsulated it was perfect. That makes great sense. Great. Well, Shelly, thank you so much. I'm afraid I took up more than 20 minutes and I apologize. But OK, I had a whole hour blocked off today. Oh, bless your heart. This has been a wonderfully helpful information. And I would encourage the students who are listening to this podcast to really think through the points that Shelly has made. If you are considering in any way, shape or form working for a non-library organization, and I would encourage you to consider that because there are going to be tons and tons of jobs in these areas. So with that, thank you, Shelly. And thank you, everyone else for joining us. Have a great day. Thanks.