 Podcasters round table round. I don't know. I think it's 130 that round thrown together This is literal last minute. So hopefully you're able to join us live But most of you are listening To the the podcast version not live on youtube.com slash podcasters round table But yeah, I didn't shave clearly didn't brush my hair through a hat on and I found the only two nerds with nothing else to do so it's just me co-host Dave Jackson and Recurring guests now. I think he's angling for a t-shirt Dave, but Dave Jackson welcome Yeah, Dave Jackson from the school of podcasting calm ready to Celebrate the what is the holiday coming up Memorial Day weekend? It's the official kickoff of summer podcasting Summer podcast is that a thing like is there something different happen on your show in the summer? Yeah, let's let's clothing podcasting, but I thought that's redundant Isn't that just redundant like who are supposed to podcast? Oh, we do because we're on camera, but just Not yet just shirts. Where's it shirts and skins? This is rock with your mics out. Oh Boy that that would be Eva welcome. Hey, thanks very much Eva Tara with you Let's see. Yeah multiple how many times like third time I think I've been on the program. Yeah, but third time like within a short period of time So exactly. Yeah. Yeah, cuz I've I've been away for a while. So yeah, Eva Tara long-time podcaster check out podcast pontifications It's better than Dave show. It's better than Dave show Well, and the thing is that but I don't you don't know which show I'm talking about because Dave Jackson has 19 The question is and this leads us into the question Is it better when we search for podcasts about podcasting as we're going to talk about? This is kind of an open-ended question because it is extremely Thrown together. I have one question for the group and you know the way this turns out lately one questions all we need and 45 minutes to 2.7 hours later. We're still here, but I want to know And I'll try not to lead this. I just want to know is your podcast searchable So when I say that I actually want to know what you think so in the chat Type it now if you're in the chat podcasters ran table podcasters roundtable.com slash live That's where you can see the chat or YouTube. We'll see you the way When I say is your podcast searchable? What do you think because I think this might be changing? I'd led it too much already But what do you think immediately Dave when I ask you is your podcast searchable my immediate thing? I pop to is Apple. Yeah, right cuz that's just the way we've been trained for ever Mm-hmm. What do you mean? Well, I think every in America at least there are people that just you know Podcasting equals Apple and we kind of forget there are androids and so you're talking you're talking I I know it's Apple podcast But you're referring to podcatcher. Yes, sir Apple podcast. Yeah And I think that's probably also due to my job because I have a lot of people that freak out because They can't find their show in Apple podcast because there's 700,000 of them in a lot of trash and it's cluttering up the place so until Recently maybe I mean it's probably still the same. I don't imagine you've changed much. What does Making your podcast searchable in relation to what that means to you What does that mean you do do you do anything with the thought of being searchable? Hmm to see here's the fun thing now with Apple kind of smacking people to put in keywords You have to put the title of your show. So if your title of your show I mean even I mean one of my shows is called the podcast rodeo show And if you type in podcast rodeo show doc or just put in podcast rodeo show into search and hit search in Apple podcast It does not show up But if you put in Dave Jackson, it'll show my I think Evo said 19 shows And one of them is the podcast rodeo show so That and there's really not much more I can do maybe legally Without getting smacked by Apple. I mean I have the name in there I have my author tag and the rest of my titles are about other shows that I'm reviewing So it's one of those where you're like, how do I you know do that? And that's why I was just tell people my recommendation to people is make sure you have subscribe buttons on your website because Somebody says oh, I'd like to hear that show. I don't want to say find me in Apple podcast because you're not You know unless you I have to if I have to tell somebody how to search I don't want to send people there. I want to go. Oh, yeah, just search for Dave Jackson scroll to the right It's the fifth one on the right. I want to tell them to go to my website calm and then click on the subscribe button Wait, what was the core reason you're not showing up for your own show? Oh the core reason is Apple search sucks And so the audio people didn't get that because of my internet took a cut out But I think you said it sucks. Yes, Apple search is not great. I'll be polite It's not very good. And I don't know if it's not very good or it just wasn't sure you're not doing something wrong I Mean the title of my show is podcast rodeo show Can you what if you made an episode? Well, no, I believe made episode just the title of your show Put you know the title of my episode in the title of you know I could do but that drives me nuts. I mean, that's one of my pet peeves But if it might make me found be found more, I guess I could put you know, like I think the last one I just reviewed was a show called I forget what it was. Whatever the name was dash podcast rodeo show Evo What would you do you help people to podcast all the time? Mm-hmm big level. What would you do with Dave's issue here? I mean, what would you tell him? I mean, you know as far as Apple goes because yeah Well, I mean we are limited Dave's right. We're limited with what we What Apple wants us to do and Dave nailed it? search Sucks on Apple podcast iTunes. Whatever you want to call it. It always has I Don't I'm not so stupid to say that it always will I think they will eventually get their stuff together But I it doesn't matter. I was helping someone the other day said hey their show had the word main as in this state in the title and They were unable to get it to show up Well, that's not true with they would launch Apple podcasts on their phone and they just typed in main by itself Just typed in main. They said hey my show is not showing up. So I went and looked There are 24 podcasts with the word main in the title that show up You know how many podcasts Apple podcast will show for any given keyword 24 Some maximum what's going to do so if you're the 25th show or you're the One of a hundred shows that has the word main in the title white. What would you expect to show up? And I don't think Apple cares too much about fixing search that way because they're not a search company now Google on the other hand is And that's a that would be a great transition. I don't want to go there yet But just to chime in on let me add a little more feudal to fire I was sitting here testing it because you know evo's client just typed in one word I typed in the word rodeo Came right up put in podcast rodeo Because when because when I put in the word podcast I'm now ranked against all the other shows and that I have the word podcast in but you do great for rodeo Yeah, nobody wants your show when they're searching just rodeo You should totally change your topic and make it all about the podcast rodeo show Come on make it all about rodeo's and podcasting David dude That is a niche you could probably destroy not because you're Steeped in rodeo knowledge, but I bet I've there's got I bet there's probably some legit rodeo podcast Oh, there are yeah, I'm looking at them. It's I'm looking at them. We can you so wait Where do you come up for rodeo? Just rodeo just rodeo? I am now. I'm doing this in Apple iTunes the best Trying to get those closer and closer and I 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 I'm 14 Okay, so I'm not amazing because I was like hey that's that's actually you know That's kind of a dream like you want to be a one word celebrity You I mean you want to be a one word podcast you like search rodeo I'm right next to typewriter rodeo. I don't know what that means and again probably nothing to do with the actual rodeo Again that Apple search is not great. So here's the thing because Evo said that Apple is iTunes Apple doesn't care because iTunes or Apple's not a search, but here's something I think a lot of us say I've certainly said this plenty of times when I'm talking to people about having a podcast saying that If you don't have a podcast, you're not in one of the You're not in a place where people are searching for things. You're not in one of the biggest search engines People are inside iTunes looking for content. Are people searching? Is this a way people find podcasts? I don't search for new shows in I mean, I might in an app I don't know Do I ever like go to an app to search for a podcast which kind of makes sense if you want a new podcast But I'm more apt to look online. I don't know how what do you think Evo? Is are these places are people searching for new stuff on these places? Sure, but it's a very small number Yeah, it is by far Not the number one in Pete way people discover shows people discover shows in podcast apps all the time Just not through the search how they do it because I know there's not a lot of room There's not a lot of discovery inside an app. Yeah, there's not a lot of discovery inside of the app It's the same way that a lot of people discover content on places like Netflix for example, and that is what are you shown when you launch the app? That is what people have been trained Trained have learned to do is when I launch this thing it will provide for me a list a relatively large list What apps do that because I use pocketcast and I see my subscriptions when I launch my app I never introduced two other podcasts in pocket. There's not a browse or a home or anything There is but it but I have to go to it. So I don't you know, I mean, it's not. Oh, right. Yeah Well, so let's also I would break this out into people who are brand new. Okay. All right And also people who are going looking for additional content, okay But regardless whether you're brand new or looking for content at some point in time a person who says, okay I've consumed the three or four podcasts or seven podcasts since that's the average. I want something new They typically don't go search. They go home. So they see what other people are Listening to what's being recommended. What's in the categories? What's in though? There's they're looking for more of Shows about something in search in app isn't what they turned you you said something It's that it's sort of a little pet peeve of mine and has to do with the Edison research And you said the average is seven which is not true. They've stated that Statistic wrong every year. I wish they'd just put a little thing Because you're talking about the stat that says people listen on average to seven podcasts, right? It's seven Podcast episodes Not podcast is in each one is a show, right? So on average people listen to seven podcast episodes I think of what is a week. Oh interesting. It's three of one show and Another yeah, I brought it up to Tom a long time ago and I because I asked I said I don't understand what this means And does it mean does it mean people are listening to say that seemed like I was like cool And it doesn't and they just refused to clear it up. I don't understand that Yeah, they should they should fix that. So yeah, thanks. So thanks for correcting me on that Yeah, but the other factor is a little, you know people who subscribe to podcasts like, you know, the three of us here in the room together Just it's not The most well that is not the assumed behavior, right any longer I I talked to regular people not not podcasters who Talk about the podcast they listen to and I say which one are you subscribed to and I oftentimes get a I'm sorry what? But what do you mean? Subscribed to show I just I just go and I find things that I'm interested in and Somebody tells me about it. I go find that show and I listen for a couple of episodes That's a say are they listening to are they cherry picking an episode that they were recommended not necessarily a podcast they're recommended Yeah, they're not Subscribing, how are they? Where are they going to the web or website the web? Some of them actually use apps I see I hear a lot about this from Spotify users who will hear about something specific and sometimes they will go to the podcast Inside of Spotify for example, and then they'll scroll through the titles until they find something that sounds interesting and click And that's the one they begin streaming to which is very alien. I Recently just the other day on my TV I pulled it up the podcast that because my daughter I let her sleep in the studio here the office Yeah, and I was like, you know, she wants to watch TV. I'm like, no you can how about a podcast She said great. I said you close your eyes listen to podcast So I went like I did this thing that was really weird I went to the podcast app. I was like is this exists the podcast app was there on the Apple TV and I just I was like, let's just look at kids and I just started scrolling, right? Like and a lot of the stuff that was in there. I was like, that's probably not a kids podcast It didn't even make sense. I found something but Yeah, it was definitely not normal behavior, but I did go for that sort of discover I was like show it to me right bring bring me your suggestions and I don't even know what I was looking for I think I probably landed on the gimlet show. So there's probably a reason for that. I don't know what it was You said something else that made me think of something. What was it? I don't know Dave. What do you I've got? Doggone I just had I'm looking at a survey from Jacobs Media. They interviewed Radio listening people and we were talking about how many people use apps 11% I can't find the slide I just had it 11% find podcasts by searching the app and then the top two Yeah, here we go word of mouth The first one word of mouth was 40% the second one online word of mouth Well, I still count that word of mouth one is offline So the top two account for 78% of how people find podcasts and next to the bottom Browsing in another podcast app is 11% So that's a tech survey 2019 from Jacobs Media. I wish I had a this is in my every note. Unfortunately, I can't find the website Evo you said that a lot of times you hear that people are going to Spotify to sort of just get that one episode They heard about yep does Spotify need to do you push people towards subscription? Do we need help? Do we need help? Getting people to subscribe. Do you think that's a necessary behavior? We want to see well, what's in it for Spotify? You know people keep coming back to the app I would say if if if that would make people happy and people would actually utilize the app more so that Spotify gets more Minutes used with the app as part one notifications and part two less time listening to content. They have to pay for We just didn't go big number for them. So if if subscriptions helps people do that then I think they'll absolutely Go that angle But they it doesn't look like they have have you seen the new redesign of what the Spotify app looks like So three tabs when you're in the podcast section the very first tab that you get is Episodes not shows that's like page one of Google like you're not going to have two and three Right exactly, right? So that's the same thing right but in an Apple podcast as we know when you search in Apple podcast The first thing that lists are these are the podcasts that you wind in episodes come second Spotify's flipping the script on that right? I mean More relevant it's it's more relevant. It's individual episodes Spotify is not a place you go to listen to albums Yeah, what if I as a place you listen to individual songs. It's also it's less friction to get you from searching to listening Exactly, right? Yeah, that's what they wanted They want to make a two-click process as opposed to multi-click process Spotify cares nothing about the way The three of us and likely most of our listeners consume podcasts They're not going after the 20-ish percent of people who are hardcore podcast listeners But it just makes and it makes total sense because I actually love this This is what the maybe the first time I've heard of this sort of music model Applied to podcasts where I'm like hey, that's different and I like it because it's it is Who cares like what the podcast is the point is you get an app you get an episode that's relevant to you, right? You're gonna subscribe You I mean you're a lot likely if you love it to go then go to the show as a whole as an umbrella Of course peace. Yeah makes so much more sense. I love that Yeah, they are playing to the 70-ish percent of the people who don't listen on the regular who are looking for Individual bits of information not necessarily wanting to sign up and have everything that somebody sends every single week That's a that's it's a different person. That's a potential listener This is a perfect segue into the topic. I actually started with is your podcast searchable and I asked this Because Google has started surfacing podcast in search before Within the last year. This has been in Google search on Android and in on a device and now it's just in Google results, which is Fantastic it's something I've been talking about for a long time I want my paycheck Google and You know this is also in theory I Don't know if it's gonna work because this is in theory This is surfacing content that's in a podcast for people who are not searching for podcasts. They're searching for answers Right. I mean, I don't know the last time I've had any temptation to Google something and the answer was under a play button And I was like, yep, let me dig through that 45 minutes to get the answer. I wanted So I'm like, is this even gonna work? But Whatever, what do you guys think? I mean, I I think it's good to have but if it doesn't produce real results Googles, I mean, why would it stay around right? Well, that goes back to your question What what do you mean by real results and for Google it means clicks, right? Well, does it mean clicks? I mean If you look at what Google has been doing over the last I'll just say 10 years Google Has really changed the way they handle knowledge Searches so it used to be if you asked Google a question like who were the Who are the members of the Beatles? What is Yacht Rock? That's probably not going to get the results inside inside joke Likely to maybe that's the next one coming But it used to be 10 years ago if you searched for who were the four members of the Beatles Google would provide you 54,000 results of pages web pages that talked about the members of the Beatles Then they started surfacing videos Here's some videos that talk about the formation be all sorts of all sorts of links to webpages You could get to that would talk about the Beatles. I want to derail you For one second. They did surface videos. Is that because they were building YouTube? Why would they why did they did they go away from that because that was huge? It was always a video at the top or they still surface videos quite a lot But where what I'm going there. So so I'm just curious what happens. We don't know so who were the four members of Not the rat pack of the Beatles Let's see what happens when I type in that and I've typed it at at the top. I get the answer Google doesn't send me to a link. It says here are the Beatles members Now is that in the box like little box? It's actually in two spots right now It's in the knowledge box on the right hand side and it's also Dominating the top third of my page and I can get to individual links about each one of those people two things I'm seeing now or you've got the main box whatever site has done the best job of and Daniel had a good episode on how to get In that box like bees sort of cited as the authority on that and then there's the toggle down List of little toggle downs that are asking the same question, but sometimes in different ways Yeah, I'm getting all my answers that way these days. Yeah, of course, right? So remember so 10 years ago Google was all about sending providing relative relevant web links Today Google is about giving you the answers that you need And that's a big shift That's a that's a gigantic shift away from what they're trying to do is they just try to make people more happy and stay engaged with Google products So when you when we talk about what does it mean for podcasting? Google is going to follow that same Pattern for us to if a podcast episode is the best possible relevant results for whatever the search query was Then of course they will they will surface that And if it's not the right answer then then they won't right and they they're gauging all the time They've got a whole crazy system to in place to find out if that's the right or it's the wrong answer So I think it makes perfect sense that we're seeing podcast show up the way that they are today Because I think it fits in with with Google's larger play So when I'm asking Is your podcast searchable? Mm-hmm What is Google you said Google's got a bunch of different ways to figure out if if the best answer is coming from your podcast Yep, what are those what do we need to be catering to? To get Google to say this this is where it's at it's in here. It's It's a two-parter I think well more than two But I mean the primary things is you know a make sure that we answer your first question make sure Google is aware of your content and Make sure that you've done everything According to the way Google wants so that Google can properly index and grab your content So that means putting the rel equals alternate link on your page It likely means how does it how does someone do it most people they're like what I don't know how to do this right? They don't know how to do this right and that used to be the requirement now It's no longer the requirement now just about it Google's finding just about everything But they're not associating it with the right there not as Google is not associating episodes with the Proper and I'll put that in air quotes for those who are listening and not watching Google is not associating podcast episodes with the proper Domain oftentimes when you see the new Episode results from Google They're associated with someone's Apple podcast listing not their actual domain And that's problematic and that has I think a lot to do not only it has a lot to do with whether or not your Infrastructure your architecture of your website is properly configured That is above most people's can. Oh wait a minute. I don't have a website for my podcast now What I'm skidding like I do the good news is the good news is your content still being discovered People are still getting the episodes Google thought your episode was the relevant answer It's easy for them to listen to that episode So it is serving the purpose that Google thought that it was it needed people listen to your show Do they get exposure to your podcast home page your podcast website your podcast episode page not necessarily? And so it sounds like from I think I heard a new media show that did just because it looks like it's Surfacing your Apple result doesn't always mean that when you press the button or play button or whatever it's coming from Apple I mean like sometimes it's Google pod. What's going on like almost always it goes to the Google podcast page I really like I'd cast preview page. It's very disjointed right now. Why yeah, well, I mean it's new, right? So these things will change obviously, but I Just showing up. Yeah, well, I just typed in how long should a podcast be because I'm like, all right Let me let me throw in a question here Daniel by the way comes up in a knowledge box So congrats on that see he knows the trick for that and you know what it's in it's buried So if you I wonder if you Google the question Daniel comes up because I know he revealed that at one point It was good stuff. I meant to write it down. I just didn't do it But Daniel has the answer. So Daniel, this is another way. We're trying to get you back on the show Well, are you in here? We need that answer just saying but the interesting thing is there all these pod news and you know Podcast motor and all these different, you know Pacific That company's here. Oh, but not a single play button on the page right So is this a case where I would have to search for somebody's podcast to then have an actual play button come up It's not like they're they're putting podcasts. It's still new. So it's not doesn't have anything. Well, hang on. Hang on So these this is an excellent Example of search intent and Google puts a lot of weight in search intent So when someone is asking that specific question, how long should a podcast be they're looking for an answer a quick answer An easy answer and that's why the audacity the podcast shows up in the knowledge box on top and all the other links up here Answer that question how long and how often should you podcast another one? Well, that's same one from Daniel, right? And so then pod news and you know, how long how long how long because those are the answer somebody wants this intent People aren't expecting to listen to a podcast episode that tells them the answer of how long a podcast can be So that's yeah, I would I would never expect the podcast episode results coming up for that Particular query, but if you are searching for something where listening to a podcast would give you the best possible Result for that chances are either now or in the very near future Google would put that List of those episodes on top episodes It would what kind of questions do you think would surface a podcast episode? Well that comes back to the the question that I would ask the two of you when is listening to a podcast the best possible Number one result Google should surface. I don't have an answer for that. It's a it's an open-ended question We do well. I mean if you asked You know, what was the? You know, what happened what happened with the cult in Waco? Like maybe it now I'm asking for a story tell me a story and I might not be one who wants to read a story I then might see You know if it's optimized right and it says here's the story of Waco I'd be like holy cow. I want to go down that rabbit hole. Maybe that might work. So see I think that's a great one I mean if you if you searched for and I just did this podcast episodes about the Waco cult I just type that in there. I don't get any podcast results I mean the first listing is actually from Stitcher. So you think I would get a podcast episode play button, but I don't That's weird. What that's the second thing listed our series of videos right here in lies your answer because I think make an argument that What's the difference within a 48 minute long video that talks about the Waco siege Versus a 48 minute audio podcast. I can't take it and go I want to I want to take it and leave my computer and move on with my life while I listen So I think the answer that I'm coming up with is Eventually and not yet because of relevancy in the way Google Council links I think eventually you will start seeing podcast episodes edge out videos That's where I think the real opportunity lies for stories. Yeah So, okay, I went to an incognito window. What does that really how much does that do for me? When I go to incognito window and I type in my show Yep versus what what's that doing for me exactly is it really because okay If I'm logged in or I'm in my regular browser and I type in the pot if I type in podcasters round table It knows what I'm most likely looking for, right? But if I go to incognito window does window does it think a stranger is looking for this? Well, not necessarily a stranger, but it takes away all the way all the personal stuff what it knows about me It still knows where you are. I mean incognito has to have some geography attached to it It still knows some things, but it doesn't look at your prior search history any longer It doesn't look at me still looks at some cookies, but it's it's giving you the cleanest Possible view of what any other person who their first time ever coming to Google who just happens to sit maybe next door to you We have to be on the same internet provider as you a search result They might get assuming here's the crick with incognito assuming that person has never searched on Google before So it's and everybody has right so there for everybody else. We're always getting personalized stuff So incognito takes all the personal away Except no one literally ever searches Google without some personal information You say it takes it away, but it's not taking it away. I don't understand you say What do you mean? It's not taking it away You say if I if I've ever searched on Google then it then they even are incognito is being affected by that No, no, no, it if you're an incognito it will take away your personal preferences I'm saying that You know that would mean a baby is born and then raised to the age of 18 years old and given a fresh Computer for the first time and shown Google that just doesn't happen Is it a good way if it's a good way for podcasters to look at their own show, right? I think it's well for two reasons one It's a good way to get an understanding of without your own personal biases that Google's put on you on top of it number one I Said two reasons, but one thing to think about You have to be careful if you're the kind of person who continues to search for your show over and over and over again You're sending negative feedback about your results to Google Every time you search on something and you don't click on Something you've just told Google that was a bad search engine results page experience even an incognito I asked because I am curious when we're talking about is your podcast searchable and Podcasters want to know this question. They would want to go to incognito But in theory they should be just clicking all over the place What they should do is is find themselves, you know If you really want to do it go to incognito search for your podcast and scroll through to page 97 Eventually click on yourself that tells Google. Hey, this person was really seeking out this particular product That's give a little bit of a boost now the reality is we're talking about a Tiny tiny amount of boost or detraction when this happens Just don't do it all the time or if you want but here's the thing if you're searching for your unique podcast name And it's weird and there are just a handful of results And you're trying to get from the third position to the first position and you don't click on it every time you search Maybe you know your that suddenly there's a lot more weight of your non-click action. We just scared a lot of people I like it. Okay, so we're gonna help out this Show because if I put in the podcasters studio into ignore incognito in search I've got my website at the top very cool And then I've got the podcasters studio on Apple podcast and three The three recent I use recent very loosely episodes with a play button Cool if I do that for podcasters round table not so I don't score any play buttons I get I do get the website number one stellar so I'm not sure why it's not up there I get my videos because we are in video live right now podcasters round table YouTube comm I said that backwards and YouTube is the third I got and then podcasters round table on Apple podcast But it doesn't surface play buttons, right? What's going on? Why why is this show not getting play buttons? My guess is the videos dominate because so much that it's not even gonna show I mean, okay, let me go to next page. Do they even surface play buttons deeper than the first page? I've never seen them any deeper than the first page. Yeah, which is also interesting but Then again, I know I don't typically see video results anywhere with the first page either and I'm seeing video results deep. Are you now? Yeah. Well second page Yeah, it's funny because on the second page of that. I do see two video results Which is interesting All right What has what has now changed my thought about this is when I first thought about this I'm like, wow, we really need to think not that we shouldn't think about them anyway, but you know, if you have a You know minute-long intro Maybe you should think about cutting that down to 30 seconds But on the other hand as we've done this now, I'm like, I don't it's like you said I don't think people are gonna be finding our podcast amongst Answers for questions. So I don't think that's really that's not I Was really thinking about that. I'm like, maybe I need to redo my intro and make it like really like Boom hit play because that's what YouTube videos do right? Hey, welcome to the you know Then this in this video, I'm gonna show you how to blank or work I'm gonna answer this question. We don't do that in podcast YouTube teaches a producer to be one thing very specifically it is get to the F in point like and don't waste my time right podcast not always good at that and some of the appeal Podcasts for both producers and listen is that you don't have to be it's not rushed It's not put upon you but when I think about in terms of pressing a play button in a search Man, I do not want to sit through stuff So your intro even if your intro doesn't answer the question and Evo's brought up this great point that I don't think it might not be surfaced for questions But even if you want the story man, you better hook quick seems like and and I'm sorry That's a bad idea. Why? Which part to You get to the point and hook somebody right away. We're great. I had idea No, the Dave said that he noticed on Utah and I said, that's what YouTube has taught me Yeah, but earlier you just said that we don't have to do that in podcasting. No, we don't have to I'm saying one of the Differences, I would say one a glaring difference between YouTube and podcasting is that YouTube People really click off and I think it's the nature of the way you're able to browse YouTube I can jump from one view to another and when you take too long to get because I did just happen to come across you on YouTube Podcast way more deliberate. I've decided I'm in for this, right, right? So as I'm talking about as producers the format traditionally to this point has been a little different You I feel like you have more time as a podcaster to even banter with the co-host or the audience I'm not saying that that is that's the way you should do it I'm saying it's what I think the medium has allowed to this point. It certainly has. I'm sorry Dave. Go ahead Well, I was just gonna say we're in, you know, let's say EVO has a show. It's the EVO Terra hour and it's like, hey Welcome to the EVO Terra hour. He's an author. He's a speaker. He's a marketing guy. He's you know, blah, blah But the best thing since sliced bread here. He is EVO Terra Is that gonna stick around now because it lets people know why they should listen to you and So it's a great setup. I mean if you think about it Well, if you think about it the Brady Bunch the beginning of the Brady Bunch is a story set up every single You they just went right to the content is like. Oh my god, you know Man in break. Yeah, Marsha Marsha broker knows why could they just jump right to that story because we already knew the setup I don't I don't disagree with that, but let's not forget that was 1974 good Fantastic year 2019 and every television show I watch which isn't a lot I'll I'll grant you that but every television show I watch starts Starts and then good point or five minutes There's the intro and it takes I don't know 15 seconds And then the then it goes back to the story and then they put the credits over the top of it Why are they doing that? Well, because that's what people are 2019 are actually into right now My so go ahead my wife queued up chitty-chitty bang bang for my daughter that a night on TV and dude and I was I realized I'm like Old movies used to show you Five the opening scene was five minutes of credits overlaid over the scene So they were giving you both but it was such a different Format well so much stuff. That's what as Eva said that I thought about that the TV shows I do watch a lot of times it's boom It starts maybe they'll show their logo for a half a second then it starts and they're putting like starring so-and-so So it's down in the bottom right hand corner So they're doing those credits, but it's almost like just it's almost like a banner ad on the side I'm watching shows on Netflix now that aren't in Netflix originals I mean there's these were on AMC or whatever and now they're being done again And so they a lot of times will have the previously on and they'll do that and now in Netflix There's a button to skip it nice Intro this goes about net go Dave Well, the thing I love about Netflix is if you are binge watching something when you get to the end and you go next Episode not only does it go to the next episode? It skips the intro of the next step So you're going from hey the content and it boom next episode right now You're right cuz I did I watched house of cards and it would give you I remember when it made the switch And it was like skip intro now now the intro is fantastic. So sometimes I actually want to experience it It's a nice time-lapse. It's got great music. There's a whole episode podcast episode on the music But a lot of times I like I want to get to it But this is the I play in this like dichotomy all the time because I hate sort of branded repeated intros of podcast I Get the point and the purpose and they're probably rights to do this repeatable stuff that intro that Dave just gave for Evo you can clip it and use it in your new show divo. You better register domain because Dave's gonna grab it but you know that annoys me and for the purpose of That I almost feel like the new listener People want to orient their shows for the new listener whereas I I want to orient the show for the for the listener someone who's already who comes back every week like I don't want that in their way because They've earned it. They know where they're at like the new listener. Sometimes there's part of a When you're a new listener, I think you're willing to even like You know, you have a little stuff to get through like it's sort of like earn the like be a listener Like I want to figure out the inside joke or I don't know. I'm just not I don't like templated formatted What feels like marketing intros but I get the point So I'm always stuck between there's a need to tell people who you are where you're at What you're going to get but I the person who comes back every week Like I don't want to hear that like most podcasts I subscribe to We're looking at 30 to 60 second skips before I get to where I want to be as a subscriber I know the first stuff. Well, jimmy fallon on the tonight show about Three maybe a month ago He used to have his whole thing the big song and they had the intro with him walking down the street While the one guy would announce who was coming on the show Which I always thought was stupid because after the monologue jimmy would go to the desk and then say who's coming on the show I go I know I just heard what's his name So they needed to cut one of the two they cut it out of the intro the intro now is welcome to the night show with jimmy fallon Here's your host jimmy fallon the the intro song now is like half a chorus And then jimmy comes out and starts telling jokes people think that this is because At least americans we've gotten impatient and I think it's just because There's so much to choose from yeah, go to the podcast You know and I think if you look back at the reason that Netflix is doing things like adding this skip intro button and the reason the television shows are getting shorter is because they get data Whether it's real or imaginary. Well, Netflix gets real data. They know what it takes to keep people hooked and listening the reason That youtube videos are set up the way that we talked about before where that's you know, this is what's happening Is we're gonna learn here we go Let's go is they get feedback they youtube provides feedback back to the creators and back and forth and we're able to watch and see How these things rise and fall in the algorithm based on What people are actually doing and so what in both of those cases they've said shorter and quicker and to the point is better We don't have that feedback algorithm In podcasting. We don't have any of that information. We don't know we're getting a little bit of it nowadays But there's not the larger point and I have a funny feeling That if we were to look at the data and find out what people are actually doing at the show We would probably find out that people like it and reward us When we actually do just get to the goddamn point I've never had somebody complain. I like your show, but you get to the point too quick No, it's never going to happen. I won't say I don't put a lot of emphasis on my apple stats when I go into podcast connect and look at those because It's you know, it's not the majority of my audience Uh, well, maybe it is but anyway, I I but I can see where people skip my intro because I have a lot I think 86 of the people listening to my show are subscribed So they've heard and it's the same intro every week even though I don't it's not pre-written or whatever It's the same. I'm going to massage your message Dave Jackson Blah blah blah and then I try to jump right into the content But the first 40 seconds are pretty much the same thing Besides the fact that the first five are me teasing what's coming up But I can see where people like I'm just going to jump to like a minute because that's where Dave gets to the stuff My intro for me is five seconds Yeah, I've I've it's funny because I have a a branded YouTube like motion graphic and it is it's I cut it down to five seconds to give as much information as possible In five seconds because YouTube it's got to be there and I think where I'm the challenge I still think it is good to have some kind of branded identifying message people Know where they are where to go to or be mine floats in it says rare take it on whatever and it's over where I didn't do it Um, but you know one of my pet peeves and advice to punt to youtubers. It's so funny to hear so many youtubers will give you this 30 second Uh 40 second long thing and then they'll say let's get right into it And like no dude, you didn't just get right into it. It's like right was over there You left right you're a light years from right right. Oh my gosh So hey, you know what would be cool and I think is a good idea and I I would Want to you know with my dilemma? Train my audience that hey 30 seconds is my intro So you can almost I think 30 seconds skip is Standard like yeah when you pull when you key up a new episode go ahead and hit that 30 seconds skip for subscribers That's your that's your bonus like you know where you're at hit the 30 second and new people will get the 30 seconds I'm not against something as long as it's brief and 30 seconds might be too long But I don't know what you guys think I want to I want to challenge you on why That 30 seconds is necessary for new people So I don't complete. That's what I'm saying. I I am saying I think it's good to have I don't know that's part of my dilemma right like this is what we hear Because people people name their show stupid That's it. And you're like What is this podcast rodeo show not the greatest name in the world is like is it about rodeo? Is it about podcasting? That person here's the thing is though people Who who choose to click on a podcast choose for a reason they've either write your description Or an episode they know kind of what they're getting into right so They don't necessarily need you to clarify the title. I mean not it's not youtube. They didn't stumble across you in most cases Why am I here? Like yeah, there is something that happened that predicated them clicking listen and you don't know what that is But still I think even if even if they did it blindly even a friend said you got to watch this You got to listen to this check it out 30 seconds and I just I'm using the number because it was used previously 30 seconds of saying this is what my podcast Show is all about. This is who I am. This is the preamble stuff I don't think you need I mean that's that's not why your friend Gave you that link they gave you that link because the content was compelling So just podcasts pontifications. You do it though. You give us you give us a Why we're here what it is, right? You do no podcast but activation So what I do I tell you what this episode is going to be about and I do that within a sentence Then there's a Jump little little four second little boom and then I say Um, hello and welcome to another podcast modifications with me evo terra boom right into it I don't talk about my background I don't talk about we used to say there was like they usually cleared up like like this is not a podcast I used to do that. Yeah. Yeah, I used to say if you're listening to the pot if you're watching this on video This is not a podcast Yes video about a podcast But I did that only for the video in the audio that got cut out I sliced that out. So now I've gotten rid of that completely because I don't Pod what I think of what a podcast is what you two gentlemen think what a podcast is is vastly different than what people think a podcast is So screw it. Whatever they think a podcast is they're happening to listen. So I'm not doing that education anymore So now it is one sentence on what the episode is about Then a little branding thing that are the little bump up music where my slide plays Then I say hello and welcome to another podcast modifications with me evo terra boom right into the topic I think the best question is what do you guys think is important at the beginning of a podcast This show starts I do still say I say podcast around table round 130 and then I state the topic and then I introduce the people like This show has no goals. It's just us geeking out. There are no goals for the show. I don't care I Probably don't need to identify the episode number Or the title of the show. I just do it. It's maybe it's a crutch. Whatever. It's at least it's fast But what do we think is important because look at anyone who watches this show listens to a million freaking Other shows about how to market their podcast how to get more listeners and the marketers Whatever whoever those people are will tell you you need this branded sort of You know tagline right so people know where they are what they'll get Yeah, how long it'll take, you know, you need this stuff or people won't connect or know your purpose And how you do you know what I mean? So crap Well, it's it's funny because it's this has really got me thinking because I used to say you have to tease the episode Then you have to so they so they know I always think of it as a bus You have to let people know where they're going. So tease the episode Then explain what the show is briefly Uh, if you can briefly explain why they should listen to you that's the part now. I'm really thinking is crap And then get to the content Because if you if you get right to the content and hook them in with Did you know that you can you know turn dog crap into gold people are going to listen. Um, you know, so That was it for the brand new listener because why especially the whole like you need to you know Establish your street cred so people will keep listening. Well, if you have great street cred, but you start off putting your foot in your mouth I don't care how much street cred you have I'm gone. Here's a question for you guys. When is the last time That you read a blog post and you've you've all read a blog post sometime in the last week I'm assuming but when is the last time that when you were sent to a link to the blog post It started with the about page Never does I click away to the outbound page and then I go Exactly right. So yeah, you could you can do that where you can read the description and see what the show is about Don't tell me. I don't need to read all that stuff. I just I came here for a reason You don't know what that reason is So don't worry about trying to pander to that. Just tell me what you want to tell me So so not pandering to because it is a good question. Who who are we Most programming for the new listener or the subscriber, right? The person that comes back The person who does come back. So there are people who come back Blindly, it's just the next episode. Yeah, what should you be? You know Is it good to at least tell you we're going to cover a b and c like I tried to give us the main topic here This always goes somewhere else, of course But do we want to establish at least for the person who blindly clicks play on the next episode? What the heck they're going to get out of that and why are we doing that so they can leave if they want someone like You know what I mean like Yeah, that's my whole thing. I don't want if and people always go well What if they leave and I go then I just save them 20 minutes And if somebody says hey today, we're going to be talking about How to set You know 60 band or a 300 band eq Okay, that's great. I'm not an engineer. Don't need that. Thank you. Bye. And I'm gone So and I will appreciate that and I'll tune in next week and it's dangerous like what because I have said in the beginning of My episodes like hey, we're going to talk about post processing But even if you don't post process there is stuff to learn here, right? Like whether that's Send it off here or do this automatic thing like there's still stuff to learn So I am hesitant to scare people away like under the guise of I'm saving you time There might still be I mean it depends on how you plan your content if you specifically know There's nothing in it for you But that's hard to say people come to podcasts for all kinds of different reasons It's hard to assume what the audience wants needs We're not apple. We don't make up what people Want to need you're exactly right. It is hard. So so don't try to do that I I follow this a similar model to what what they recommend and that is this is what you're going to give today. Look I produce four show four episodes every single week even people who subscribe to podcast Pontifications don't listen to all four every single week. I get it. There's that's too much even though they're only Less than 10 minutes long each. That's a lot of content you consume. So I want to be respectful of their time This is what I'm covering That's what I tell you and then the implied tone is if that's not for you then you can skip this episode I'm okay with that. I don't say that out loud But I I make that I make that available To to your specific questions because you asked the question of who is more valuable the person who is currently subscribed and listening to your show all the time or the new person The unpopular answer is it's the new person Because what you and I and Dave we all know we've all seen this that happens if we pull our most rabid fans On what they want from us. They always want the same thing. They want more And they tend not to go away because they're rabid fans. They'll pretty much do Listen to whatever we give them because they want to be they want to listen to us for whatever reason They want to listen to us. So it's not that I they're less valuable to me It's they're in you're using them. I know I'm not abusing them because I'm making it shorter. I'm making it more concise I want the new person to get it. I don't feel like I need to go sing kumbaya run the fire with everybody But I try to get there's there's no detriment to putting the The good content up front. It's the upside down writing style It's to tell them the most important stuff up front so they get what they need Newspapers know how to do this. Here's the story. You don't have to read all 500 words But here's the important part up front and if you want to keep going keep going it still feels like marketing because we are We are I'd rather serve the subscriber just in terms of it doesn't mean I do it I just I feel like I'd rather say thank you For showing up every week. Let's just start the f and show like yeah A new listener can figure out how to get in the club like if the content's good, they'll stay like I just I don't disagree. I don't think you have to The only thing I disagree with is you don't have to say thanks for listening. I mean, they're already listening They don't need your thanks. They want you to keep them making show But just get to it just get to it That's the new listener and the old listener likes it when you just get to it And I know I know there are plenty people in the chat room right now Disagreeing with me saying but I like the banter I like the witty five minutes when person a and person b talk about nothing important before they finally get to the content Well, I don't know that's true I mean, I think that you who's typing that right now may feel that way But the rest not so much put you if you want the banner, that's fine. Put it at the end Put it somewhere else or the word people who are invested will go more and play around but just just the banter The banter lovers are podcasters who like to banter. Yeah, you're probably right. You're probably right about that Yeah, that's true. That's true. I'm not anti banter. But yeah, I do think you could shift it But I mean, I don't know I do I mean there is a skip button for the reason it's all I'm saying I I use it I use it a lot I almost only use a skip button for two reasons one When I know that the 30 second pre-roll then I can tell yeah, or when it is I know the show Like for example, they're I'm not gonna throw him under the bus because he's there's another podcast about podcasting and Mark asked what isn't with us. So I'm not going to throw him under the bus completely But you know, um, I hit that four times on his show because it's two minutes of him selling Um An email marketing program. Yeah before he gets to the content, right? And so it's it's it's skip skip skip skip And then that's usually about the time he's done and then I go into it You're the user he can abuse because you're not going away Yeah, but that but that's that's not good for new users either I so I I disagree that that's actually good for a new user mark's going to be on the show I guarantee so that's fine. That's not good for a new user either That that's good for him getting revenue from the email marketing company, perhaps But I don't think that's good for the new the new listener I think I think they get tired of that pretty quickly when it's a sales pitch over and over again Well, that's good because we have a whole nother round table we can do there All right Taylor pushing back to or pulling back to search david sound like you had a good question in the chat Yeah, this came from Kim Kragi from toastmasters101.net. She says if we're seeing people go to episodes rather than shows Should we be promoting with SEO and cornerstone content? in other words Yoast talks a lot about that a cornerstone content is I'm doing this right now I'm working on an episode that's going to be everything I've ever learned about Interviews I've talked about interviews in the past, but I'm going to make this big giant nothing but Interviews kind of like in the same way that last week on Jimmy Fallon They did an episode with Howard Stern. He was the only guest So mine's going to be this is my interview show if you want to learn about interviews go to that episode And then what you do is anytime in the future then if I ever hint about anything about interviews I'm going to link back to this mother of all posts about interviews. They call that cornerstone content So Kim is saying hey if we're going to be you know sending people to episodes if that's the way we're going to be found Should those episodes then be marketed as cornerstone content What say you I say almost yes on everything that she said because Look at their seo gets a lot of bad rap deservedly Deservedly it gets a lot of rap But if you I don't like the word seo I like sef search engine friendly And if we do things that are search engine friendly Like that like having cornerstone content like having topic clusters like all the other things that that people who do seo for living know about I'm not talking about the black hatters who you know stuff key words. Not stuff We know we're not supposed to do or put out Pod episode titles or blog post titles based on very weird keyword strings like Buy real estate phoenix market right now And that's that's okay That's the title of my page because somebody did one query on another those things are dumb But yeah, I do think kim that since we are seeing people go to episodes rather than shows We as podcast creators should recognize and create content That are going to fulfill the need that those people are turning to google and searching for that's not We're not Letting seo drive our content. That's not it's not what i'm talking about but it is just being smart and Putting out the kind of information using the kinds of word using the kinds of structure that we know google likes to the rewards properly Why wouldn't we do that? You know, I I tend to think I ignore seo because it's something that always changes and I just Don't want to do things where things are going to change like I it's easier for me not to care Dave put it in the chat very well He said I try to write for people and hope google likes it But evo you're saying search engine friendly things Which I think is a good way to approach it and is similar and I'm wondering how do we help people Be more search engine friendly so it sounds like those are things that google is like always going to like because it serves the purpose of surfacing The thing that people are asking when you're in a search, right? So what are some of those things for podcasters that is search engine friendly as opposed to saying What is exactly does google want today that they're not going to want? So so so one thing to fix so so google when google makes changes and we google makes changes of their Algorithm all the time and usually once or twice a year they make a pretty sweeping change of the algorithm Those changes they're making to the algorithm are strictly designed to cut the black headers out It's not that google changed what they want It's google found a way to detect bad behavior In almost every case and I've done this for a very long time with google I've seen them the changes they make and in almost every case it is designed to get the bad stuff out It is always designed to improve the results that they see If you follow what google webmasters talks about the way that they want you to produce content They don't go into great detail about that They want you to get the spirit the the idea behind it of just simply creating good solid content Clear and concise titles you asked for some very specific things So clear and concise titles are continue to be important not keyword stuff, but just clear and concise titles google likes really long form content like a thousand words or more Way more than they like a couple of sentences about your episode. So that's a that's a deep show notes If you want to call it that sure, I mean google likes longer form content way better than like thin content. They like Valuable content where you're adding new information to the conversation as opposed to just regurgitating what's available on 17 other webpages Well more like 17,000 other webpages google likes it when you link out to others and you're helping spread this thing we call the web Around they don't like it when you don't do that when your content is just isolated on its own Really all google wants you to do is create awesome content that human beings want to consume And if you do that and you follow some basic technical guidelines to let their crawler go through and grab the content you need They're going to reward you for that. They will always reward you for this is the shift, right? We we we talk about as as podcasters and people who talk to podcasts. We always say make awesome content and the shift now is that You can't just make awesome content in audio although it sounds like google's going to dig into the audio Soon they are ready But we've always talked about supplementing that awesome content Via your website or online right something that google can grab on to right if they're not doing transcriptions um So obviously a website seems important, but And not everyone Just to piggyback on what uh evo was saying I threw this idea out at the school of podcasting and a couple people tried it because it's kind of like Well, what am i running out of ideas? So i'm going to talk about a fake podcast. So ray What podcast am i going to talk about i'm i'm curious to know because what is the the top favorite fake podcast of yours No, just make one of somebody goes. Oh, it's a it's a podcast about binky in the whiz show is Nitting everybody everybody talks about the well, I would say quilting, but yes Yes, cool. Okay, so I went to google and typed in getting started in knitting And if i'm like i'm not sure what my first few episodes should be go down to those questions Because it's telling you what people are searching for which is easier to learn knitting or crocheting What do beginner knitters knitters need say that three times fast What knitting needles are the best for beginners and what tools are needed for knitting? There's your first five episodes. You know what I would say too Go to freaking youtube And go to the best knitting the biggest knitting channels and look at their because they they've already figured it all out They know the big the big channels already figured out what people are looking for and really grab on to Go look at their top producing video Translate into audio and make a point. This is actually a great one. I love this Actually, we're just going to steal youtube content and make big make a big splash in In audio. Yeah, your mama said don't go playing traffic. I'm like, no, no find out where the traffic is Yeah, don't just go back to work. Yeah, we're always talking about know who your target audience is and give them what they want Well, you know, that's kind of a way of at least getting a hint The beauty of you know, what I love about youtube is you can actually if you want to call it competition Your niche whatever you can see what the ceiling is if I start a podcast about podcasting. I have no idea I assume Dave gets 7 000 listens per every school of podcasting But nothing tells me that if I go to youtube and I start my channel and I'm reviewing camera gear I see other people in that niche and guess what they have one but the biggest guy has 1.5 million subs That's my I know I can reach that it's reachable Like I know the market's there because in this case more than one person has a million subs in that niche You don't I don't know that you get that you don't get that you don't have any kind of measuring stick Um against which to measure yourself in a podcast I mean you could go and see what's in the top charts, but you don't know if that's a million listens or Or a thousand doesn't matter Or it's accurate. Yeah, it's not a chart. Um Gosh that made me think of something else No, it's good stuff. Um, oh, yeah blogs versus show notes, uh, we recently talked to recently we produced an episode at work Um, we had a interview with the impossible burgers guy, which was freaking compelling and it was really cool Um, and made me very interested in the product, but tasty We did this thing like we did an episode with him And um, we do our regular show notes were the it consists of favorite quotes and some highlights and just various things But then the the host who's also a writer went out and made a blog post Which was and then we put the embed player in the bug So we produced two pieces of content, but why aren't show notes blogs should show notes just be blog posts? What's the difference like you know what I mean? Should there be a blog? Is there a difference to show notes and blogs? Should you be doing a blog post on the same episode that you just that you put on your website? You know what I'm saying like When we're thinking about search and building like Stuff that people want to consume should you just I hear what you're saying and so my answer to that question is We podcasters abuse the term show notes. Yeah, because it means to me it means two different things one means The the web site the web focused landing page You're assembling for this particular episode right you might call that a blog post You might call that an article whatever you need to but that's the idea It is designed to sit there so that when someone is Searching the entire topic that we're supposed to be covering on this particular episode But that's fine. We'll get back to it. They're nice. That's it's primary job So when someone is searching around looking for something that attracts someone's attention So you write your landing page your article your blog post for Someone who's never heard of you before I don't know listen to your show I think show notes I think we in the past have primarily written show notes for the people who are listening Because we're like go to the show notes for the links and which is a mistake, right? Which is a mistake and let me and let me explain why so yes You want it primary audience is a brand new person, but absolutely you want all those Links in the show notes. You want those links out like I was listening to uh every little thing um, which is a show that's part of gimlet and they put like 150 References in the blog post they write for their Articles because they go out and research a lot of these things so there are actually references in there So you want it for all of those reasons, but you want it so that that blog post that article Is consumable without ever having to listen to the audio which is anathema to us in the podcast We want them to listen. Well, it's content your your writing content based on your articles Based on your podcast is the way I think about the the blog post version of the show notes The second part of show notes is that which goes into your podcast app That which goes into the rss v either into the description field or the content encoded field That's a different person That for the only way those are ever going to be seen by someone is a They have to listen in a pod catcher podcast listening app Do we call them pod catchers anymore anyhow, they a they have to be listening in a podcast listening app and b And it's a very very small b They actually have to click through and figure out how to listen to those notes because Most people don't most people who listen to a podcast have it in their back pocket Have it somewhere else. They're not reading along as they go but those Show notes if you will I call those micro copy that micro copy needs to be written with the assumption that someone is Either listening right now or has taken some call to action that you made in the audio And it's clicked through to find that content. It's very Different it has probably links sitting close to the top so they can quickly get to the information they need It's more of a reference point when they're actually listening So when I create show notes for my clients content, we create two very different show notes We create that landing page Thousand words or so and then we create the micro copy Which is a condensed easier version to to consume based on the same content But but two very different audience does your landing page version Tell a story on its own or just sort of give you Headings for what's covered, you know what I mean? Like Daniel does a great job I can't tell you I never talked about this plenty of times I can't tell me times I've gone to uh like the audacity to podcast to get an answer Because I know it's in a show notes. I don't and it's in the it's in the episode Um what we're calling show notes. It's in the write-up Yep, I didn't have to go into the episode to get my answer and I appreciate that Exactly right there. So that's that's why you do that. I do the same thing. I did it I switched recent well about a year ago I now type up a blog post to help me flesh out what the heck I'm actually going to say on the episode I used to do it the other way I would write writing the story as opposed to telling it at like telling you what's in the story Yeah, because I used to do like here's my four bullet points I'm going to cover and I would record it and then I would type a full a full blog post and inevitably I go Ooh, I should have said this when I record it. So I do it differently now. I write the blog post I come up with bullet points based on the blog post Record it and then I'm done. But yeah, and so I have people go Well, that means some people might come to the website and get what they want out of the article and not listen I'm like, uh-huh. Yes, and you just and you just said it I appreciate the fact that I can get the answer without listening which makes you value that website in whatever way You're a content creator if you want to read it read it. That's right You know so Yeah, it you gave them the content they the content gave them what they wanted you didn't force a container On them you didn't force an audio container when they just wanted to read something So fine, let them read it And this is what I'm thinking too when it comes to search like this google's gonna want this right? So and then I was kind of asking like are you writing? Uh the landing page for that episode To tell its own story or is it just saying here's what's in No, it is it is a complete it is here's here's the story we are telling we mentioned the fact that Like all we're doing one right now for a company in colorado that specializes in adoption and throughout there We're saying in the episode you'll hear the host say this but it's it is Many people just read because there's there's it most of the content is there we give away the answers There but we do leave we don't want somebody to do to assume that there is no podcast We wanted to let them know that that actually exists was an embedded player and we mentioned during the episode We're talking about these things, but we we we say the things It's not just here the here. I used to do it this way where it's here's two paragraphs About what the overall topic is going to be and now here are the eight bullet points of the most key important things That we said and that's it. I don't do that anymore I know that google rewards longer form content. So now we listen to the episode in real time and we write out a good compelling Blog post as if someone doesn't even need to listen That's the way we're doing it these days I'm typing in Because there there's a let's see if okay according to uncle google Approximately 15 of america adults age 18 to 35 are deaf. I didn't think it would be that high That sounds like a big number. Yeah, I might have to redo that search But that is those are the people that really love long blog posts That you don't force to you know, listen to a podcast Are people that you know, well, and I mean You know, I think there's like there's probably this like idea that people don't read Any more blog posts or blogs dead or something But everyone chooses my wife wants to read it. I want to I actually want to watch it So evo, I bet you guys are maybe also making videos about the same topic too, right? So when we talk about search At the point is you can help your podcast by building More more content more formats that people want to consume that continent Like don't don't be worried so much about forcing them into the audio If you're able to give them the ability to read it and then maybe watch it if you have that time I mean this show you can watch it or read it more people. I mean or you can't read it In fact, in fact, what I would call show notes about the worst example ever for this for this show like I just um Sure, you can say I don't care. Sorry. I I know I get it right. That's the thing, you know, it takes time I mean, I'll tell you this for For podcast pontifications Less than 10 minutes every episode. It takes me one hour One hour to write the article that accompanies with it and that's after I have fed it I have fed the finalized audio into a machine transcription that gives it back to me So I'm not like I have to listen to everything. I'm talking about I don't listen at all I just take that machine transcription and go Holy shit. I just rambled about that for like nine different sentences. It's the exact same thing I can cut all that out of there, but it takes me one solid hour to write up 10 minutes worth of audio When I already have the transcription it takes time to do it. So, okay Why is it so important to you then? Why don't why don't you just skip it? Right because I want people to discover the content right that's and you you think it's that critical to discovering the content Yes, it is it is chum in the water, buddy. Yeah, that's how I look at it. Exactly because my audience, you know, I'm trying to reach people who Even though I taught my my avatar is a weird avatar But when I write that blog post it's for someone who is not a constant consumer of podcasts They look a lot like my clients my clients don't even listen to their own goddamn show They don't anybody else's that are out there, right? But they do search They do read they do consume a lot of content and they do searches on linkedin and medium and places like that Where they're looking for that they're looking for experts to give them the right answer So if I can write a thousand words based off of a 10 minute conversation. I just had with myself That's good information for someone to consume so it is absolutely worth it for me to do that This may be a comment here said that Circular podcast said you know where people found me on medium and linkedin as well when we're thinking about search And we're talking about google But and we're talking about how google is surfacing apple podcast results. So like Apple podcast is ranking better in search for like the podcaster studio, but youtube is re ranking better Yeah for search for this show. Yep as podcasters you know There are other sites he's saying I mean he's essentially like medium and linkedin leveraged really well for him Sure. Um or her sorry. Yeah, but um Gosh this starts to sound like there's a lot to do there is a lot to do it But that but there's there's as much to do as you want to do right, you know And so it's super. I mean I use linkedin and medium because that's where well I used medium for different reasons and linkedin because I want businesses I I got to go to linkedin and I've started posting full articles on linkedin right now Because that's where people are looking sometimes looking for consuming content or being exposed to content not necessarily searching for it Medium google surface. I mean they'll surface medium post it'll surface medium post I don't know about linkedin articles or not. It's not it's not like facebook You know, it's not that walled of a garden But I just I don't know that they have they've done a good job of connecting All of that content together But it it gives back to the intent thing with medium medium, you know Articles are searched on medium. Sure. They're surfaced through google But most medium articles I shouldn't say most a good number of medium articles are discovered the same way Netflix contents discovered they're presented to people on the home page. They have a curated Home page as part algorithm part human being that says these are the things that you should read next So that's a great place to do things. That's that's less about search and more about Medium is where I go to find content on this particular area. So that's that's happening as well But you got to create content Medium is not going to find your content. You actually have to go to medium and put your content there Which services it serves its own challenges It's it's early days Is there anything we should be thinking about as podcasters in terms of what? You know, I want to be found in google for my podcast and then you know I guess I don't know if anyone's listened to the new media show recently taubin on rant about how it's not surfacing The website right like if it's pointing you to apple And he's the he's in theory the leading authority on his podcast. He wanted to go to like newmediashow.com Um, I don't I go listen to that recent episode on the media show It's a lot there And I'm the audience should go check it out because rob and and taub bring up some other issues that we haven't dealt with here And I always just think things are so early and things are going to change so fast What do we want to focus on as podcasters? You know what? I mean, I don't want to focus on something specific that's being done right now That's surfacing if it's like a tech thing you're talking about relinks and all this stuff What's best practice for the long haul? Is there anything we should be changing? Maybe that's it google's in the game finally They're surfacing podcast. They're going to make it a first class citizen is the thing We're hearing across the place now spotify everyone wants to make a podcast first class citizen Whatever that means right surface to the top Should we be changing something that we've been doing for the last 14 years? Is there something new to do? There's always something new to do but So I think my answer to that question is And I want to make sure that I that I I want to pay the right the right attention to what to what it is that you're asking And I need to come back and clarify something that that I heard you say earlier Ray And I've seen a couple people talk about it like like mac wilkerson mentioned that specifically in the in the roundtable Chatroom over there and that is that you know google keeps changing its mind google does not keep changing its mind It doesn't look at look at the guidelines That google provides and google by the way has provided very clear guidelines Yeah, they're a little more technical than you want them to be but nonetheless google has provided clear guidelines on what it takes To have their system recognize your podcast just follow Them and that's my that was my advice to Todd from the for the new media show Todd's rel alternate links. He has a bunch a whole bunch in there and google's the guidelines clearly say just one, please just one So I can't promise that if he just does one suddenly it's going to reallocate his Listings away from apple podcast into the new media show, but I can't I can tell you that he is currently not Following google's guidelines So if as long as you choose to not follow google's guidelines, you should expect Unpredictable results, but I will say here's the silver lining on that He wants his podcast episodes listened to They're there They may not be in the exact spot that he wants them to be yeah, but they're there and he says that too Yeah, exactly. Ultimately the message is he doesn't care where people listen as long as they listen right that's what he says, you know Is so the podcast or studio shows up with the play buttons and it's because it's pod. It's it's my website shows up first There are no play buttons in that listing the play buttons come in the apple listing Mm-hmm. There's no way I'm gonna In theory, I'm not going to beat apple, right? They have all the authority, right? Why would I search for mine search for podcast quantifications? So you are you are I want to see that looks like but I can guarantee you my domain authority on podcast Pontifications a website that is consists of one page I don't even have my episode details on that page. It has a much lower domain authority Okay, so this is nice. Okay, you are showing so google is giving you the play So it is it's not doing it for apple podcast the way soon on my show. It's giving it for your website Okay, what's the difference? I think it's two one. I have only one I followed all of google's guidelines I know exactly what they say and I've done that do most people Does that require having your own webs? What do people don't have their website? Well, I mean you google's Guidelines are for webmasters. I mean, it's for your website. So if you don't have one But if you just had the domain, there's nothing I can do like I own the url, but it points to something Yeah, then then that's that would not be following google's guidelines. So yeah, right? So that's so it's automatically non-second So that's number one number two is While my domain doesn't outrank google podcast Pontifications hasn't been around for forever and in fact, I've only put it up on apple podcast probably in october of last year's when I finally You're welcome. Yeah, thank you. Thank you for that between you and uh, who else gary leland and other people You know we're saying hey, this should be a podcast. Don't you think you know So but my podcast was it my the podcast pontifications.com was around for longer. So it has longevity So when you when we start thinking about how google ranks things it could be that for that particular reference point There are more there's more authority just for that phrase that goes to I'm just there's less for apple for me because it's a newer show and Podcasts around tables been around for how long, you know long time new media show around for a really really long time Now I know you know if todd's listening he's going to say yeah, but come on evo new media show.com I am the own your own com guide. That's built into my dna I get it But I and I think at some point in time what may happen Is maybe apple podcast eventually starts to outrank podcast modifications and it flips Although, I don't think that's the case. I think google's going to can you to tweak this and it'll stay that way Todd will have had he will Todd will have had his domain as long as he's had it in apple podcast It's not even longer. Yeah, exactly, right, right, right? What what's nice to me about seeing this for derelabs is that it's It's possible like it can't it's it's isn't like necessarily bias towards google podcast or apple podcast I mean it that's right there for you whatever whatever making that happen, right? It's right there Ray, are you saying that if you type in podcasters around table, you don't come up number one I the website. Yes, but I don't get any play buttons even for apple pod. Do you got it? I get I get the top pages you I got a bunch of youtube videos youtube it still likes so And that's a good priority, right? Yeah, maybe google with push towards podcast will say hey, let's surface though I don't know this as google priority as as much as it's actually that's where all of your Traffic has been built. That's what your history says Podcasts around table is a video thing. Well videos. It's not I mean it's co equal, right? Like it's been a podcast as long as it's been a video so and right in the podcast in theory Obviously, they're not tied into apple numbers gets more views listens than the video gets views Google doesn't know anything about that right Google knows what people click on and people click on your links to your videos a lot So why would I google stop giving people things that they click on? Well, they couldn't click on the audio before the audio was I mean, right? Right, but now but still that's that's the reality that you live in you don't know and google's going google Probably is one out of a thousand times somebody searches for podcasters round table podcast Given I I can't imagine that happens like a thousand times a day But hey who knows maybe it actually does a few people are probably getting those Results or that's the idea google does that they will occasionally surface something. Let's try it here That's what when you look at your google webmasters or google search console You see really really weird things on what how your ranking has gone up and down Throughout the day of an individual page just because google is testing all the time and eventually eventually as more people If more people do click and start listening to the audio and show google There's a clear preference for listening to those audio episodes as opposed to the video episodes Then you're eventually your audio episodes will outrank them But not until that time and I still don't think that you know It's all sort of moot because I don't think having a play button under podcasters round table do anything to drive more They're not nothing right like I don't think so either there needs to be I mean honestly I think this round I've highly enjoyed it. I think there's a ton of value. We've gotten out of this conversation It's been kind of all over the place. It doesn't fit the title Exactly because we went down a long rabbit hole about I don't know something else. It wasn't searched, but You know, it would have to be very specific to the episode You know, I mean if this round Landed for a topic that someone was asking a question about but even then it's more about I don't know if questions are just going to be what it's looking for um You know, everyone wants to see the play button, but does it does it really matter You know the thing is sort of related to this Apple recently restructured how they appear on the web how your show appears on the web Yeah, right. So you get an apple landing page On in like google on a browser search. That's very nice. It's got a playable player So someone doesn't have to go to apple. They just play it right there on the web. Yep, but is Okay, it looks great. So what like is this the thing? Are you promoting that like? What what value does that have for us? It it looks great. It functions better Is it it does it play value does it have value to your podcast? I'm good I'm glad to see it, but it's not the link. I'm going to be giving people so Where's the value? Like having play buttons the value is for people that go Listen to me on I don't know whatever school of podcasting.com slash itunes And I forget that I'm ignoring 80 of the people that have an android phone They can now go to that page and at least listen Right before it was like well, thanks for nothing that does nothing for me So it doesn't exclude people but but you're not I mean you're just screwing up by promoting Apple yes Yeah, you're making a huge mistake by ignoring the 80 of people That have an android phone But anyways evo, what I mean, what did you think of these new pages? Like is this I think they're I think they're great because it finally for the first time in 13 14 13 13 years that it as Dave said suddenly a link to Apple is useful for anyone on any device because those links exist So it's not not a matter of whether I get value out of it or not the reality is that someone At some point in time is going to share a link to my show on apple with someone else who may not have an apple device Well, your show and my results is third on that list apple podcast when you're searching for podcasts ranks high Almost all the time right and now when I go to that page If I'm just doing a search It's playable, right? I don't have to jump off right that's the benefit right there That's nice because your show probably ranks apple your show probably ranks better in apple than it does maybe for your own website For a lot of things for a lot of people, right? It's a lot of domain authority built up there. Sure. Yeah I never realized this was back. Maybe it's never gone away at the bottom of that page The good old listeners also subscribed to oh, yes. Yeah, they've been making some changes. Yeah They changed it now no longer itunes. It's apple podcast now. So yeah, it's also it's been there because it's my It's the thing I've always said is drove more podcast discovery than anything else And it's literally like one of the first things that came along For podcast discovery and so I wish this wasn't an app Like do you want to we always talk about discovery and talk about apps? This needs to this needs to surface in apps because and and I'm biased by the way that I consumed And early on when I started when I found a podcast And that one podcast showed me that there were five other podcasts that people liked on the same topic I subscribed to them all did I stick with them? Yeah, not all of them, but it worked so well at least in my case I want to see that an app. There is a very limited real estate Um, do we think that these these listings because they have these great domain authority? Right this part you're talking about the evo writing different show notes for what pops up in your apple Like your description based whatever they're surfacing. First of all, what are they surfacing on this page? I'm looking at the apple podcast preview page on the web for podcast pontifications. I see like maybe 140 characters Yeah, they're doing subtitle. That's it Subtitle it to itunes summary itunes summary slash subtitle not subtitle because they don't see subtitle for anything Then it's it's itunes summaries because I see some rest for that. Yeah, so they're not they're not pulling the description Which they should they're not pulling the content encoded which they should Because that that text right there you see on mine is I I do the same thing for the the subtitle As well as the itunes summary because they're identical usage. Do we think this? New page inform this will help us all in search at all Um, I I think it's going to help apple in search Which in turn helps us because if somebody does find this, you know if Because I mean I'm I'm I'm on the one right now for the one I did today Which was called the future of podcasting might be stealing from instagram stories So if that out ranks if somebody comes along and searches for podcasting instagram stories Let's just say that's what they wanted to search on I don't I don't think of my shows in in search format But nonetheless if they did that and they got this episode Served up high because apple podcasts Podcasts.apple.com has a very high domain authority Then they are listening to my content that helps me did they go to my website to listen? Don't no they didn't and I do not care. I just want them to listen I hate to make this an example because it's a serial, but I was like, you know what? Here's a podcast that a lot of people will have heard of yeah Not know where the heck they listen don't anything about they're just going to go to google and type in One word serial, right? What does that bring up? So it brings up their domain and the play buttons, right? So they it doesn't even surface the apple stuff at all. Oh, no, I lied. I lied. It is actually It's like the fourth down. Okay down there So I'm just thinking that this is probably a way when a when a podcast catches pop Fever that way, right? That could be a case where people are just searching, you know, they're not going to catch podcast around table Uh, like that most people are not searching for but they may have heard it outside They made facebook community. Maybe someone didn't link to it. They just said check out podcast around tables So they go to google they put in podcasters around table and um You know being found for your own name this also, okay, let's think about search You know, I typed in serial. I spelled it right. I didn't get Cheerios, right? That does does this affect anything when we're thinking about naming our podcasts? Um, You know, maybe maybe my my content on it. I don't worry about branded searches branded searches will sort sort themselves out Hey, what do you mean? What do you mean? What searching for podcasters around table? They're not going to have trouble finding that I mean, it's really Dave talked about how you know, you know a podcast rodeo show is a different situation. Okay, sure I get some of that But I don't worry too much about the play here isn't Did they find your podcast? I think the play here in google is are your episodes being Surfaced to people that's that's the more important play and we didn't get to the fact that the google is transcribing behind the scenes episodes and I mean, we think they're going to surface episodic content Based on what's inside that content based on transcripts that they're making Right, they're absolutely doing that right. Yeah there and whether or not so yeah, that begs that begs the question So do you need To follow evo's advice previously when he said write a thousand words Look if google's just going to churn through the audio Which we've been waiting for and figure out what you said and more maybe not more importantly, but also When it's answering a question just send you right there to 15 minutes and 37 seconds into the audio when you gave that exact answer Isn't that better should we just wait for google to do that show notes are dead. Hey, yeah Here's the thing here. I mean they don't do it for youtube and they could They automatically transcribe they show you video But they don't put you right at the answer and that's that's I think why we're not seeing that happen right away I think they've got a lot more There's an ability to do that because they can simply say okay the answer is 11 minutes and 13 seconds So let's give them a 10 second pad to go into that And then you do a nice fade in and all that stuff, but they're not doing it They must not be doing it for a reason and I think it's a whole lot easier for them to do that on content that they host As opposed to pulling it from an mp3 file that's living on, you know Libsans or blueberries or wushkas or whoever server. That's that's got to be harder. Yeah Oh man, I've had a good time. You can see it just questions. He's come to mind. This has been a blast. We uh We're definitely um We're over time as they'd say but that doesn't exist in podcasting again There is no clock. I hate exist on mine. We're out of time It does right why right because I have my videos can't be longer than 10 minutes. They won't go to linkedin Ah, see you're catering to a platform, which is interesting. Yeah, also because we got the point faster I don't know if you know this but I tend to ramble Well, that's why I bring you back on the show because You got to fill dead air Bring it on. All right. Well, that's awesome. Hey Hopefully, I mean if you're still listening or watching you enjoyed it So thanks podcasters roundtable.com slash guest will actually get you to a list where you can sign up to be on a round Where we bring on more guests today's short notice short staffed. Um, but the checks are in the mail Dave Jackson Uh, where can I what do I search on google? It's your podcast. Yes search for school of podcasting and hopefully I will turn up I would hope so which is funny because you could just put com on that. Yeah Yeah, or yeah, that's it. You could just go right there School of podcasting.com skip the google and you'll go right to me skip the google. I have that on t-shirt Oh, oh, I I typed item school of p and normally it just auto fills it But then it just stopped and just took my search result And I got all these schools near be and I'm thinking how many of these schools actually teach you how to pee But luckily none of them actually do So, uh, yeah, I just I just checked Dave. Good news school of podcasting shows up several times You have a showing up a school of podcasting.com and also the dub dub dub The school of podcasting. Is that you are you the school of podcasting is actually the school of podcasting School of podcasting is just the podcast So I got you on both of those domains is my question. Yeah. Yeah. The school of podcasting is my thinkific site Is your website my thinkific? It's my actual membership site Thinkific thinkific is the the Okay, got it. Yeah, I've never heard that before so okay now. Now I understand Do you evo? Do you tell people to search for your show in Podcast apps or something you just oh you just deliver the the cta is the yeah Go to the main. I mean, yeah. Yeah, I don't I don't I don't tell them what they're ever fine Podcasts are served. No, I don't do any of that. I don't you send them to his website Uh, yeah, I say, you know, look there should be Then marketing for two damn long one call to action the things that you do So yeah, so email me evo at podcast launch dot pro or you can visit my website We're gonna see all the lists of the service of our from my clients at podcast launch dot pro Yeah, that's that I don't tell anybody to do any searching. Yeah, so tell them who I am to the site Give me your email or email me or just go to the website. That's it Awesome. Well podcast pontifications. I don't know if that's what you delivered But that's where you want to find you should be checking out another podcast about podcasting. That's actually a podcast now Yeah, finally We're we're papped up. I still still I still consume via video, but I'm you know, I live in both worlds So whatever man, you can listen to me you can listen to me in the shower It's very cherry picked though like uh That is the problem. You don't subscribe, right? Like I don't know if the problem But I do cherry pick but you know, we were talking earlier about subscription versus versus Yeah, sort of cherry picking and I think interview shows the biggest ones that I don't know if I say suffer from it Is that I'm gonna cherry pick a name wtf. Is it in my podcatcher? Sure. When's the last time I listened to it? I couldn't tell you it has to a name has to service from like Yes, I want to hear from macaulay caulk and like what's he doing? Now there's a good reason I mean, why doesn't when I type in interview with Dave Jackson Which you've only been in that You know a million times you know that you should surface that we're not getting podcast episodes We're getting well, that's not true. We're probably are getting podcast episodes, but we're getting standard surf results Yeah, we're we're not getting the and that's just because it's probably early days, right because that that does seem Really catered. That's a great category for surfacing an interview. I mean an audio interview Right, come on zack come on zack zack rw. Where are you man? Get on the zack that the word zack is like He's the To the google podcast of echo We just refer to generic zack He's like share There's only one zack I'm sorry zallik zallik the guy from the hangover movies. You've been replaced. Oh gala. I guess between two uh ferns Yes, yeah, right even better. Hey, I thought we ended the show a minute ago. Did we not in this episode? Going so close. Is this the post show and so We forgot to end it. I told you if people are still listening they're into it man. This is fine. I'm okay with this Right For for behind the scenes when I gave you podcasters roundtable.com So I guess you want to sign up because what the best part of this show is the part you don't see So when we shut off the recording when I hit stop broadcast and google says we've been terminated very ominous by the way google I know what you're doing We talk for like an hour and longer and like I always want to record those make those the patreon And then deliver that but then what would happen is we would do that We'd stop that and I'd say okay. We're off that and we do another hour Because the the point is until the recording really stops If we don't get to hear the the best of the best stuff, so Sign up that's a big long lengthy call to action to sign up for a podcaster roundtable.com slash guess or just subscribe As you won't hear that stuff. So it makes no point. Guest sign up. We aren't gonna end it. I'm gonna end it Thank you everyone wave. Goodbye. I almost forgot that part. We're out of here