 In the morning, this WCW edition, it's a nice day, cool day when we are going to discuss things that matter. We are in the discussion of the day and today we are going to discuss things depression kawanaume. Yani, we are asking in our social media platforms everywhere, a depression kawanaume, recently you've seen men committing suicide, men are depressed. There are people, the rate at which men have answers nowadays according to experts is alarming. So we are asking if men, women like us chana, when they are changia, when they are depressed, when they are women, what are they helping? Are they helping girls the solution or the problems to women's or to men's depression? My name is Sankara Kaisu and I am joined by specialists today. I say specialists, not just any other people, I am joined by two people. One is a criminologist and the other is a psychological counselor. And criminologist nimtu ameka apame kuja apafuri long like she is like a resident panelist. But today she is so different, she is called Rose Halai. Rose, I know how to pronounce Halai, Rose Halai is here. Apart from Rose Halai we have Maureen, Maureen is a psychological counselor. Rose Halai, owner is a criminologist. How are you guys? We are fine. I am happy to host you here today and I am happy that our panel is composed of psychological counselors who are also ladies. So you are in the best place to help us demystify this. Rose introduce yourself for those who are seeing you for the first time maybe. A very delightful morning to all of you. My name is Ouna Halai. I am an alumni of one green entrepreneurial university, Karatina University. I am an entrepreneur, a detective and a political enthusiast. Okay. So we should not call you criminologist, we should call you a detective. Criminologist is outdated, I mean, so maqwadiani. Okay. Welcome to Wait Forever once again and happy new year. This is your first time this year here. And then we have Maureen. Maureen, how are you? I am very fine. You are Maureen Gashero. Yes, yes. You are welcome to Wait Forever. You can introduce yourself, what you do and what maybe you know how to do best. Okay. Thank you very much. Yes. I am so happy to be back here again. My name is Maureen Gashero. I am a counseling psychologist in my fifth year of practice now. An alumna of the University of Nairobi. And I've been dealing with people who are struggling with addictions, different addictions. I also love working with families and the youth. And I can say my job is like my life. Yeah, it's literally what I'm living for right now. Do you have an organization you run or you work for an organization? I'm currently running my own business. Okay. Yes. So you have some movies somewhere people can come for counseling. Yes, I do. Do men come also for counseling? Yes, they do. Compared to when you started out now, are they increasing or decreasing? Yes, they've been increasing in numbers. And they're also opening up more, you know. Kitambu, I used to notice a lot of resistance whenever I could work with men, especially in rehab centers. But nowadays it's like there is a lot of awareness out here on social media, on TV, like right now we are creating awareness. And people have started internalizing it slowly by slowly. So that is enough evidence apart from what research says that men are depressed out here? Yes. So we are going to see if men, we are going to tell us maybe best on experience because you have such cases if women or if ladies contribute to this. But let's hear from detective if she can detect whether ladies are involved in this or not. Now that she's also a lady and she's a detective. Can you start by talking professionally, not as a lady? If ladies are changereing, are contributing to men's depression? Either way, on the dark side and on the bright side. Ladies actually contributing to men's depression in the fact that you find ladies have a lot of demand and they bring this attitude of you're supposed to be a man, you're supposed to act like heat, you're supposed to protect and provide. They expect so much of them both financially, sexually and in all other dynamics of life. Like a lady, okay if you're a man and you have a girlfriend or a wife, looks like the wife is so dependent on you. Now the burden of it is what causes men's depression among other things. On the brighter side you find that having a woman by your side as a man, this woman is your self space, this woman is your support system, this woman is your cheerleader, this one person who is like contributing in your life in terms of thanking you, appreciating you, cheering you up when you have done something positive, they're less there for you. And in that way they reduce your stress, your depression. Have you been out of Kenya recently because you're not talking like you mean Kenyan ladies? Kenyan ladies, me Kenyan ladies. Are you saying Kenyan ladies are by you cheer you up, supporting you? Seriously Rose? Your peace, your woman is your peace. Let's get back, let's come out of detection, we get back to cancel it. Do you think she's right? Yeah of course she's right. You mean Kenyan girls cheer their boyfriends and support them? Yes, some of them actually there's this lady on YouTube, Maureen Nani. Maureen someone she loves speaking in Kikuyu a lot, she does a YouTube in Kikuyu and I love how she treats her boyfriend, it's just something I personally don't think I can do it. You will hear her announcing about the birthday for her boyfriend and maybe she's taking us to where she's going to shop and what am I going to buy him and it's such a big deal and I don't know it's it's something like that. It's not something I think I can do personally, built on personal experience. You are getting to my point now. The girls who do that are not even 1%, I don't know, but I know a few girls who do that. They can be 10%, then where are the rest of the 90%, even if you work with your 10%, where are the 90%? We have the will but not have the capacity, so if we count those who are willing, we could be even 60% out of 100. Or some of them have been, you know. I think only a few percent of girls are so hard to deal with and you know cannot do some stuff. They have... Which is bad. And actually they are so much proud of that. It's like crime is bad, your profession. To do crime is bad. But you know it also comes from past experience. But crime is inherent also. But it's inherent. In a society, even in this space right now, there is criminality going on. You cannot tell because you cannot detect. But that doesn't mean there is no motivated criminal here. The environment holders have sufficient supply of an offender. Some of them are actually motivated to commit crime. Let's get to the man now. I know from your experience and practice, maybe you've detected where crime has happened. Maybe a man has committed suicide. Or maybe a man has committed homicides, skin sambudia, things like that. All those are coming out of man's depression. I want you to maybe tell me, from your personal experience, or from your professional experience, why you think men are depressed. Before we zero into ladies, before we zero into ladies being the cause of the prevention, why do you think men are getting more and more depressed of late? Okay, even though women are more prevalent to depression, men's numbers to depression cases have also increased because of a number of reasons. I might say one of them is the societal expectation. What we expect from an ideal man is putting so much pressure on the men or on the boy child. Number one over expectation. From society, everyone else. Your mum is looking up to you. Your mum is wondering, how the fuck are you 35 years old and you don't have a wife? Your grandma who's at home and expecting you to buy seedlings for planting and stuff. Your little bro wants to go to school. Yeah, your little bro thinks you have money and they are brewing you to get money and you don't have. So the problem according to you is over expectation. Over expectation. I think you stop there. Do you have another point? Yes. Apart from over expectation, as a man, you also give yourself some pressure. Pressure to be the best man. You pressure yourself actually. Like I'm supposed to be like this. By now I'm supposed to be the pressure you give yourself as a person. By allowing yourself to be easy and let things sometimes flow the way they were meant to flow. Being hard on yourself. So maybe I can summarize your points to over expectation from the society and over expectation from self. Yes. Okay. We didn't give us from your practice what you have found to be the major problem which brings this depression in men. This depression in men? I would say the kind of women that we are raising in the society. It's the men problem. It's a problem. I think women are a big deal when it comes to men. Yeah, the other day I was listening to David Ogott in an interview about addiction and he was saying how his addiction developed. He wanted to gain the courage to approach girls and to have many girls. Something as simple as that? Yes. You got repression from? Not rejection. I think it's more of wanting to fit him with his peers. Had he tried approaching women and they declined? Yes. So it's rejection. It's rejection and also peer influence because your friends are wondering why don't you have girls as we have them. What do you mean girls? What do you mean girls? Like many of them? Why not one girl? The friends had many. I don't have proof to this but the information that is out there is that men are supposed to have many girls. Seriously? Yes. I think it's not such a big deal when a man cheats but if a woman dares to cheat then she will be labeled all sorts of names. So the men you have cancelled, let's take recent three. Without mentioning their names, what were the causes of their depression? What was their problems? I will not talk about my clients. I know it's unethical. Yes. But I would say something I've noticed so much is family. You find that someone has family issues, maybe you have an ascetic mother. And you find that this is not something that society has acknowledged. That your mother might actually be toxic. The way she is saying, your mum is expecting you to be married. I don't know if she is expecting you to bring something home. She doesn't even care whether you have a job or not. She doesn't care whether you have your own life. The other thing is addiction. And addiction is caused by the kama'i history. One of the causes was chana wa michangia. You want to gain the courage to go and approach women. To misbehave or to have this grandiosity. All that. Even mums are women. So you don't know why men's problem. Just circulating around women. You don't know how we can help this. But if you are watching us and you are struggling with addiction, immediately after this faith itself is coming up with addiction, anti-addiction coach. Like a person who teaches people to move away from addiction. Be it alcohol addiction, sexual addiction and all that. So it's good if you are watching this show that we have a solution for you immediately after this. And don't worry. You also have a psychologist in Seth Morin here. She will help you. She will help us maybe to know how we will deal with addictions. So let's get back to women. Let's leave men kidogo to a park because they are the depressed people. And get back to the problem. The problem is now this pressures from women all over. Why can't women learn to depend on themselves other than putting pressure on people's sons? Why can't you girls depend on yourself? What's your problem? I think it's more upbringing. When growing up, if you've noticed that the women around you depend on the men, you also grow up with the same mindset. And then you come to this time and age. In social media, you're seeing women, come on Instagram, say zuki ingia. You see a kina Chinese kiki. They have this rich man and they are just showing off their wealth and how they are traveling and everything. You think that, ah, sinikipata amzungu can take me to all these places. Kwa mimi nishineni. Nishineni nile na kina oche muku. And I can just get amzungu and omoka. Beza Joka used to listen to when I was young, when a teacher asked a boy what would you like to be when you grow up and the boy said he would like to be a pilot. Why? Because it pays well if you fly to different countries, you interact with so many people, you build so many networks. So the lady, the deskmate, was asked who would you like to be when you grow up and she said pilot's wife. I'd like to be pilot's wife. Yeah, that was there. And you said that was so innocent of her. Yeah, innocent but now the problem is the empowered woman, like now we are saying what a man can do, a man can do better. But now they are like now putting pressure on men for their dependence. Yeah, I know they will be happy now saying it's not so, it's not the case. But the research says, because I did research even before I came here, most of man's problems are women related. Yes, so I don't know how we are helping this. I don't know. But is it really our fault? Who's fault is it? Some point I think it is the fault of man because apart from women being a burden to men hence causing their depression, also women not being a burden is causing them depression because actually in the era that we are living most ladies are empowered. Most ladies are actually doing life on their own. Most ladies have capacity to take care of themselves and even their boyfriend or their husband. And that has caused stress to the boy child because they think their glory is now being taken away. And now claiming it causes them depression. So we depending on them and we depending on ourselves is actually causing them depression. So who is the problem? Your point is either way they will be depressed. Either way they will be depressed. Like if you are my girlfriend for example and then you are supporting me or supporting yourself that you want to need my support much of my financial support won't I be a happy man I will use the money I have to further my education to further my kujibamba to make myself happy. That's what I expect from you. But then what is the realist? You becoming stressed and depressed because you think now me having my own money I am not low yoga you think I'm out here doing nasty stuff because I have money you think I'm not coming to the house late because I have money you think now the money has been kiburi You think now the money has been kiburi I think if you also have money You will just find a way to make yourself depressed I don't understand what you are saying I have a man friend who doesn't have a job right now so it is the lady taking care of the bills who is going to be in the house and have a voice I will let her be happy because she has money and she will be happy to have a voice and she will be happy and she will be happy and she will be happy and she will be happy and she will be happy and she will be happy and you see that is where culture comes in because when you go back to your tribe maybe women in your tribe are taught that the money is supposed to be the provider the breadwin of the family maybe at a wachua kitambo traditionally how did parents choose a husband for their daughter so they used to look at the wealth how hardworking is this man so those are things that are still in us and it's up to us to let it go I don't want it to end soon because now there is gender equality is it set to end anytime soon so that people will just be depending on their own I have a typical good family the people I stayed with was my uncle and their wife they were both teachers and I loved how they planned their finances the man used his money to develop that home and to invest he used his money to build maybe some rentals at the near shopping center to build the house, home and all that and the lady used to use her money to buy food in the house and to pay fee every salary time they would sit down and write how they are going to spend their money and it was a perfect family I am very sorry that they rested both of them rested but I loved how they were coordinating their finances but now the typical Kenyan lady has some mentality of my money is my money is our money yes I don't know how this can end how can you end this criminologically how can you end this psychologically teach girls criminologically these ladies who are saying that my money is my money and your money is our money those are criminals and in fact if you find them someone ask me to come and arrest them they are an epitome of injustice actually financial injustice there is no fairness when my money is my money and your money is our money I would like them actually to emulate the example you have given you let uncle and auntie the way they used to coordinate I think that should be the ideal and I am glad that actually we are moving towards the end of gender roles and gender expectations and everyone out there is trying to do something for their own there is glory in being independent and I am happy that also the boy child is impressing the fact that what they can do, a woman can do and a union of marriage friendship should be should have mutuality in terms of financial it's a partnership in fact that is why we are here that was the topic of the day ladies for men psychologically help ladies, help ladies moreen know how they can support men in this their time of trouble it's their time of trouble they are committing suicide in their numbers how can ladies help them now well for me I always advocate for self help seek help yourself first because when you find that you depend on this person so much for finances for emotional support ebu imagine asubu kitoka kwenyumba ni nakuomba pesa your lunch siji sapa siji niliwa na dress wapinatiko ni buy imagine and then wuki kata I have my anger outburst oh siji I'll leave you siji you don't even do what we are not men enough why won't you commit suicide if this is the order of the day so ladies need to invest in therapy if you feel like you una jokun ei le kuji gage all the time you are always emotional around your man there is no time where you ever support them all the time whenever they try to express themselves ah ono ma mna kuanga aju you know that of a generalizing so ladies should invest in their mental health and then from there they will be able to support their men yeah so because you said there is a problem with the expectation so I think your point is that they should reduce their expectations so that they depend on themselves can it work so can ladies depend on themselves can you convince them that they can actually do without men's financial help they can actually do without men's financial help one thing I have always told myself and told the people around me is that you have to love yourself enough as a person you have to do life as an individual as a person this will help when this other person is not there life can still move on suppose you are a dependent wife what happens when your partner is no more God forbid what happens when you can literally do nothing and your life is entirely dependent on them this is why you find someone collapsing someone dying because the other has died because your life is linked to that other person sankara are God forbid when your brother dies right now and you collapse and die what does it mean it takes a load since you cannot do your life alone without them that's why when you hear John is no more you feel as if you cannot do it you cannot handle it but if you love yourself enough and you are capacity as a person to live your life then you can be able to even move on when something happens talk to Agal Morin Agal whose boyfriend is now depressed not talking just they are sad not even eating properly and they are seeing that man there very depressed what can such Agal do well I would say try to practice empathy because I think most of us women try to be very self-absorbed we always like to see ourselves as the victim all the time but the minute you just try to step out of that and just be there for the other human being try to reason out with them maybe it's something you can solve together Pengina mapecha za job and you guys can come up with a project and become rich you can actually help him out in solving his problems you can ask him to get out of his comfort zone maybe you can start going to church with him just something introducing him to new ideas so that he starts healing mentally and also the last result is seeking professional help because it really helps oh professional help it's not like African is not used to seeking professional help I don't know why but it's not easy for a man to just get out and go to a psychological counselor like you for an advice is this also cultural or something yes it's very cultural you've never had even Kevin Hart even African Americans joke about it it's not African at all Africans have not exactly embraced therapy just yet they think it's a joke why should I pay to come and talk to you when I can talk to my wife you know or your friends or they can think out their solutions alone because some people also don't like sharing their problems especially men men it's true girls can say their problems to anybody and I think that's why even they have diagnosed that more ladies are actually depressed than men it could be even more men are depressed than women only that the diagnosis is not there because they have not shared so we will not count the numbers if they don't share but because women share more and their diagnosis has been recorded more than men it could be true and then the other issue is toxic masculinity what's that men thinking that the expectations that we have exactly let's see a few comments here on social media platforms and we are starting with Xavier Maestro Mula he says men love peace okay let me read for you our question first saseni je ma de muwana changia ama wana prevent kwae depression wana ume do women instigate like do women contribute to men's depression or the help prevent it our solution here our answer here randomly is that they contribute to it more than the help prevent it so Xavier says men love peace but expect to fall into depression and in any form nilene kapu na uyo psychologist morin kaching you life from home for example siwe wuku sama kama wuku single no professional oh okay nile fukiria begin okay kura jam you are going to give you a social media handle or maybe a number if possible there is Rama Rama mfunga na say Digo Gang from County 001 meeting madem wu wu changia this guy comes from rift valley maybe I think he meant changia wu changia sama nampia chene anataka na kujito lea kwa hali na mali lakini haoni unaji changia menewe kuki pata dem ume pata visaya kusumbulewa hee hee hee oh maybe maybe maybe this Denny Sotino says most wanna changia sana you sacrifice a lot but now these are men talking I've only read comments of men sija pata yam dem some appear yam dem but Denny sana most wanna changia sana you sacrifice a lot but then they don't appreciate tuned in from him I'm happy that the whole country is tuned in to us there is Samuel another man Tunisha says pa sana and tuned in from webuye and this gender ina tutesa sana sana hadia 20 ju a 20 ju ya depression and stress a 20 binguni hee hee hee and then there is Meresaya wolf hee hee hee poleni hee hee hee hee hee alasema poleni ya ma dem wenginewa na changia kwa depression ya wana ume but she wacha chie wu prevent ya like kudem she looks so motherly she looks so caring an appreciate kwa you wich changia wich changia but they are few who prevent like one as idea ya so I think ladies should take this very seriously to see how maybe they can help somebody called Merimer Ryan an asema na mtu akiyona ana pawa depression kwa ni ni asiyon na oke asiyon na oke wu yode na move on na maishayake Meri piawa takiki kwa na oke ya hee hee hee hee piawa takiki kwa chua piawa takiki kwa chua piawa advisement so like kwa ma mtu ana kupia depression umuwa chie well yes you also run for safety juw if you don't have the skills to deal with this person see they only doing more damage okay so you support Meri peaceful people this one jiru skido 100 I mean 100 mara 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 100% wana changia but always juw because they say at yolo you live once see you live once na pesaya kwa si pesaya mtu so wana pressure cheli sector yado ma itaji itizi alafu bado haoni kumana umana wake bado ako na ma ma bab ako na wababas na ma cheli hatra like kudema na sema wana pressure mtu ako na pesa na bado ako na ma babas piya wakumahali so inimbaya inimbaya jemukia na sema they industry themselves of manufacturing depression I wish kwa jiru hi I didn't do industry of manufacturing depression from man there is a risk there is a risk wana changia vibhaya sana belitling of expectation itizi ako na mwenya na enda sa idea dey mblewa ataba dey mwenzao wana sema okay mble mo ngujiria na sema a lot dey demand more then there is a career lucority wana ma so they say they are the depression themselves they don't cause depression they are the depression ala hukuna ibraim haim babasiki na sema wohi daughters of joseph wana na enda ku mkutano ya earthquake nirudi badai wana na sema pijapa na earthquake tukuna depression na wepi wana letla letla na sema imagine I was thinking the same wew na think nini na wajatwambia the sujin na sema for some are the cause but some are just fine I agree with this lady this man here na sema they are ladies who are now the depression removers yes like nini ya mkaya wana na sema cause depression na mam na kama laika apa na piya do you think you also cause depression you know you old age no exactly nani na ya nera kujazaki nani na you detective you need to be a detective no mkuna mkuna naitrapa jo nini ala sema kama wani sugas join me I don't know what sugas is but whatever it is we won't join you because I think it's a bad thing I know where kuna wuku and then you are top fan far away you are another depression to the society there is somebody called meto kadafiwa na sema wana chagiya sana tena sana alafu kuna jama na itua DJ Mars wana sema wana chagiya tena sana the sparra wana sema ketunizer wana sema wana chagiya straight over from Ruhai laikilam tu wana sapa na sema wana chagiya ala somebody say salim say relationship is crazy kumoka kwa madame kumoka the skill wana sema the the effort contribute up to 60% depression alafu the sparra yawaitu na sema na kuna na skiya ngomahi wea me chagiya ngoma zi kumigya twizi maliza say but all in all me ona kwa 90% is that ladies wana chagiya so I don't know because now we have the problem as we finish what is the way what owner her lie are we going to continue dying as men because you guys are causing depression is there any way you can help us recover from depression from the responses that you have just read actually very glad that men have realized what the problem is that is one path to finding the solution if they have realized that actually ladies of women are the one contributing to their depression then the best way possible is to avoid ladies who are causing them depression toxic ladies they should find themselves people who are peaceful and most importantly before signing up into a relationship or a situation where someone is taking money from you and they are not actually your girlfriend or they are not loyal they have infidelity with them and you don't like it but it's one of the reasons why you becoming depression before getting into such sort of partnership or agreement you need to put things down and make them as clear as you want them to be before getting there I'll take that as your closing remark or you have a closing remark to the ladies beauty won't buy anything so try as much as possible to also be important in a relationship setup bring something on the table and be peaceful very very peaceful men like peaceful ladies don't talk too much because I know some ladies can actually jaza your brain by the time you gain momentum you start your year in July so please ladies be peaceful be good girlfriends be independent be open minded and be clear with your intentions when you get yourself close to someone's son they also need peace and they need you being peaceful and supporting them thank you very much tell us your closing remarks thank you for me I'd just like to emphasize to men that it's okay not to be okay it's okay to seek help or for men and this podcast I love listening to mental Kenya I'm sure you guys know about it and it's a very good initiative that mental Kenya have because they are telling the society that men also have problems and it's okay to talk about them that you don't have to be so masculine for you to prove that you're a man and men should embrace these things more because sharing is caring the more you share your burdens the more it becomes lighter and you're able to live your life more healthily you've talked like a real professional both of you just talk like a detective you've talked like a psychological counselor maybe it's clear madam try depending on yourself people are crying out here people are crying out here that most depression of men killing themselves worrying themselves to others so many things are coming from you you can man up you can lady up because you're ladies you can lady up so that maybe you see how you can be solutions not problems but to my fellow man know when to stay and when to let go so that you don't have to die because of somebody's daughter I'm not inciting you I'm only saying that your life also matters not only to that lady but your mom to your children future or present children to your sisters to everybody so let no depression take you and suicide is the last it is not even an option there are so many options to you we know how to seek psychological professional help from professional psychologists and the lady who is coming after me with Faith Mutsuli this has been why in the morning and this is the segment we call it discussion of the day I hope you've been helped and thank you for making it here it's not in vain somebody has been helped so thank you for coming if we invite again again and again suicide is the last I would like to share my social media social media handles maybe somebody wants to get you I call myself Maureen Gashero on all platforms LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, Facebook follow me I talk a lot about mental health it's my passion and we can always have very lively conversations about the real things that are actually happening in our society ok, let's leave it there