 Welcome into the original gangsters podcast. I'm your host Scott Bernstein. Today, another long form addition and we're going to dive into the Philadelphia mob. 2024, we're gonna do a roster rundown to kind of give some insights and analysis where everybody stands in the Bruno Scarfo crime family. And as always, here at the OG pod, we go right to the source and we're going to bring in a good friend of the shows going right out to Pennsylvania into his neck of the woods, rising star in the true crime journalism field from the sit down, formerly a bar stool sports, Jeff Medu. Jeff, nice to join you or thank you for joining us. It's a pleasure to have you on and I'm excited to chop it up with you. Yeah, it's always good, Scott. Thank you for having me. I always appreciate kind of chopping up with you, whether it's on my show or your show. And, you know, I think people will kind of be clamoring for Philly episode. You know, we do a lot with New York City and I know you do a lot with Detroit and some other places. So Philly's always popping, especially with an individual that has been known to run around in Philadelphia recently. So good to be on with you. Thank you for having me. Yeah, so, you know, there's been a lot going on, you know, kind of, if we want to talk about on the field, off the field, if we want to make a sports analogy, there's been a lot of off the field activity with the skinny one, Joseph's skinny Joey Marlino, the reputed longtime mafia Don of the Bruno Scarfo kind family. And then that that just saying that opens up a whole different layers of conversations. What does that mean? Is that true? Is it just a title? And we'll get into that in a second. Jeff and I sometimes differ on our exact feelings on that. But I think some of that's semantical. But nonetheless, that's the beat. That's what I love doing here is, you know, getting into the weeds. But you know, Joey Marlino, let's just start off with everybody knows Joey Marlino started a podcast about six months ago. I just want to just dive into the deep into the ocean here before we start going down, you know, the scorecard, but just address some news that's happened in the last week or two. So it started off on YouTube. And now it's pivoted to Patreon. I haven't signed up yet. I'm sure I eventually will. I see what he's coming out with right off the bat is stuff that you want to hear about him talking about Salvi test or talking about little Nikki. But I'm not sure the sustainability with him going on Patreon. So I kind of wonder where this is going to be in six months, Jeff. Any thoughts on the skinny, the Joey Marlino podcast that's gotten so much publicity and, you know, buzzy talk over the last six months? Yeah, I will say for first time podcasters, I think they definitely learned the art of controversy, right? You know, bringing up people that are going to respond. They're going to go tit for tat for and most of the people in this genre are going to side with Marlino just because he didn't cooperate. We know that certain people don't like a Sammy Gravano or a Gene Brello, but Joey's done a nice job of doing that. He's also made the show, I think very watchable, right? Not everybody wants to sit there and just listen to sports and food talk, but they've been able to kind of insert certain things have done a pretty good job with it. I've heard through sources. They're doing pretty well on Patreon. It remains to be seen how that will be in six months when there's no football or basketball, but I often wonder and we've talked about this, you know, where do you go when the stories run out? Because there's only so much that Jerry Malino's talking about. But I guess Scott, I wonder, I've noticed recently, Joey, I've been a little bit more willing to tell a story. Yeah. My concern is we've seen this in the rap community, right? With guys that are willing to talk a little too much, whether it's an Arab or Casanova or even like Kefi D, right? Does that get to a point with Joey where maybe he says just a little too much at some point? I wonder about that. But they've made a little bit of an avenue for themselves. And I think it's clear, at least to me, he is not doing anything in the street. But they've done an okay job with it, I think. I think I'm I'm super impressed by Joe Perry, little little Joe snuff. Yeah. For someone that doesn't really have any experience in media, you know, hosting a show on any platform that gets the kind of eyes that this gets. I think he's comes off very natural. You want to just like you want to engage with Joey, you want to engage with little Joe snuff. So I think the dynamic there's great. Again, I'm just talking more of a logistic I'm talking from more of a logistic point of view. When you're going to paid content, there's more of a onus, at least in my opinion, to produce more content, more consistent content, more quantity, I mean, in addition to quality, you're looking for quantity. So I just I wonder, like you said, how how long they can go with it and how much and I'm again, I know I took some heat for this the last time we talked about this, whatever it is, I don't really care. Honestly, I'll give my opinion and it's going to be unvarnished. But I don't want him to fail. Hey, man, go go grab a get a piece of this pie that everybody's chowing down on and Scott, Scott, you know this than I know this. And regardless of whether you like me or you like Scott, I've done this nearly a decade, you've done it way longer. I've created multiple avenues for myself and multiple different levels of content. Anybody that would be in this drama from our standpoint, we all want people to be successful because again, that's how the YouTube algorithm works, you know, more people in it, the better. But I'll tell you what, I have noticed with them recently that I think it's a good idea. And I think as you get closer and closer to spring, I think it's in their best interest to do more of the day in the life of Joey, right? Going to golf courses with us, going to the cigar lounge, going to the restaurant. Exactly. People want to be embedded with that. And I think kind of creating that community that they are creating is fascinating, right? To the point of, you know, they're getting people like it's not easy to get people to pay for something at any level, especially this world. So I give them all the respect for doing that. And you know, you mentioned Joe Snuff. Snuff is I think a perfect partner for Joey due to the fact that Snuff is South Philadelphia, right? He embodies it. Yeah, you go down to any corner in South Philly, there's a bunch of kids like Snuff. And Joe knows a lot of people. You know, his family very tight and people in that area they've lived there for 100 years, right? So I think it's a good dynamic. I think to get people to pay for something is hard. And I think they can continue to maintain that. I think it'll allow them to open up and do different things, maybe go into different events and hosting meetups with people. And it is a different world we're living in, right? I mean, the thought of having a mob guy, you know, on YouTube is crazy. Whether or not he's a boss now or not, the fact is he was a boss and was a boss of a very important influential and Scott, you know this to the age old question with Joey Merlino is, how does he make a living? Right? And that's, I think anybody that watches these shows, Scott, he's got you tens of thousands of dollars of watches on his wrist. Yeah, right. Louis Vuitton, Louis Vuitton shirts are cheap, right? You know, going and doing the things they're doing, they're going to games and Rolls Royces, you know, I think at some point, this has always been the question about Joey, is what is he doing exactly to furnish that living? And we know the fence. There's no love lost with him. He knows that and they know that. So that'll be an interesting thing. Sorry, Jeff, I didn't mean to interrupt you. Okay. And believe me, this little endeavor, it could be a big endeavor into the public consumption sphere, in terms of the FBI and IRS, that just ups the ante in its stick that, you know, in their mind, it's sticking a middle finger up to them. And again, whether or not he's boss or not, the feds are taking this as a challenge. And, you know, again, he's just got to accept that. I think he does that he'll never not be a target, no matter what time, day, year, how old he is. You know, it kind of reminds me of a story here in Detroit, about Billy Giacalone, who's a lot of people believe was on the hit team or led the hit team that killed Jimmy Hoffa. They were bugging his retirement home room. When he was in a nursing home in the last months of his life, they were dressing the FBI was dressing up as orderlies and going in there and bugging, you know, his his his clock radio thinking they were to get him talking about Hoffman. That's how obsessed these people are. You know, Scott, the wire is one of the greatest shows of all time. And in the wire, Prop Joe makes a point to stringer bell that, you know, what kills more police than bullets and liquor boredom, they just can't live with that shit. Yeah. And I think the thought is, you know, there's always some young agent out there trying to make, because it goes up, we all know, in the FBI, the more high profile rest you make higher profile change, right. And there's a lot of I want to say there's I look this up recently, I want to say there's like 80 different local FBI agencies around the country, maybe even more than that. And there's Philadelphia, Harrisburg, New York, there's plenty of agents out there looking to make a case. We know the obsession with the mafia is we know you're going to get into paper for it. And Joey is the highest kind of guy at that point on the wall with what's left of the FBI's resources going towards organized crime. Joey's picture is on that that proverbial wall at the top of that pyramid, along with all the top bosses in New York City. He's ahead of those people. Yeah, right. Yes, ahead of those people in terms of the desire and the thirst for a bus coming from the federal government. What have we seen with them too? They'll even just create a law and say, you were gambling on sports, right to put you away for that. Even though millions of people do that every night, they're willing to just it was a way to get him behind bars for a year and, and, you know, mess with his head and mess with his family and continue what he he claims is a, uh, you know, a long campaign. So let's kind of now go into the, you know, we were off the field school in in the field now. So I'm we can get into a semantic issue, a semantic kind of breakdown. I agree with what Jeff says about him not being involved in anything on the street in Philadelphia. I agree with that, you know, 99% I'm in lockstep with that. I don't think he has any say on a day to day basis on what's going on in South Philly or Jersey. I do believe that he sees tribute from that stuff still to what degree I'm not gonna, you know, I don't want to speculate. But I do believe and I do have sourcing that there is money still going. Now, does he want to know where that money comes from? No. Does he ask where that money comes from? No. So I guess it comes down to an, you know, again, like kind of a peas and queues tomato tomato. At least that's the way I view it because whatever the title is him and his crew of guys that Merlino camp that South Philly street corner stronghold. They shed blood for this. They took over this crime family in their early 30s. They did something that nobody ever accomplished in the you know, after prohibition, nobody ever accomplished what they what they accomplished in the 20th century. And now they're in their 60s are getting into their 60s. And there might be insulation points and buffers, but I don't see them just handing over the reins to to other people. So that's just I think the age old thing with Joey is as far as I know, it's not illegal to receive money from your friend, Scott, you know, as far as if you've sent me $1,000 a month, it's not illegal. Well, it's not it's not illegal to accept money, but it's you have to account for that money. Right. And we are so you gotta say where you're right. I'm on I'm not as accountant as far as I'm not on look, if he's not accounting for that, that's something he'll have to obviously deal with. But yeah, you know, I think my whole thing and I think this where you and I differ. I look at the Philadelphia crime family or what's left of it as to me, these are all people that know each other, right? Every person that's a high ranking person in that family knows each other from when they're kids. Yeah, the friends and relatives, not just alleged most of them are related in some way. South Philadelphia is very small too. I mean, if you look at the Italian neighborhood, it's a very small area. And they are all indebted to each other, right? I look at it more to me as like a V F W kind of thing, right? Where you go to a location, you maybe live through yesteryear, maybe have some little things going on. But Scott, do I believe they're out there ordering things? No, I don't. I think maybe they have some things they're doing, maybe bookmaking, loan sharking. But as I've told you, and you know this, if you were a mobster in 2024, your goal is make a little money on the street through little things that are not going to jam yet real deep and stay away from drugs, assaults, murders, arson. And I think that's one thing a guy like Dom Brandy will very much learn from after his first incarceration. They hit him hard because he had connection to the drug trade, right? Mr. Videos, people like that. If he didn't have that stuff, it wouldn't have been that bad. It had been a small pinch. Yeah, but Jeff, doesn't that there's a rub there because Dom was a person or is a person that we're talking about Dom Grande, who's pretty high up and is a younger guy that is looked at by a lot of people as a future boss. At the very least, he is the government of Kapo. So if he's dealing in drugs and he gets busted, how can we say the organization isn't dabbling in drugs? But my question is, you say the boss, the boss of what? There's about, let's just be honest, bro, there are 10 guys out there right now, again, I'll push back against that. I think Philadelphia numbers wise, and I know we can start breaking down who's active, who's inactive, who's in what camp, because there's like three different camps when you put together the Scarpa regime and the Marlina regime. But you have a roster of probably about 50 guys that have their buttons that are, whether or not they're active or not, they're free on the street. I think the age old things, Scott, is, look, these old guys, you're like Ligambi. It's common knowledge. Joe Ligambi went to prison. We know what he's about. We know the kind of people he was around. He'll always be regarded as a mobster, right? But the doctor down the street, that's a doctor and retires, he'll always be a doctor. It's not to me he's still practicing medicine. I look at it and say, are there guys out there doing things? Probably. But we know a lot of these guys, Scott, have moved into legitimate business. Don and Grundy, a lot of people don't know, he's involved with restoration. He's a real estate agent, you know? Let me just segue real quick. George Borghese, who I name as the acting boss, as the guy that runs Philly on a day-to-day along with Mike Lancelotty. George Borghese, from my research and from talking to people, take away all the rackets and throw him away for a second. Legitimately, he is a multimillionaire by legitimate means, from his legitimate business interests and his investments. He's been very smart, he's very savvy. So I don't disagree that these guys have turned a corner or some of them in the years since they were young, you know, young Turks or these aspiring legendary wise guys. Now they are the legendary wise guys, but they went from just being street corner hustlers to guys that are legitimate, you know, got into white collar business, got in on some ground floor stuff and have made legitimate money that you can put on a tax return. That I don't think they could have really, not a lot of them could say that back in the 90s when they were going back and forth with stamp. I mean, I'm not to say they didn't file a tax return, but so, you know. And a lot of these guys look at it, whether you and I disagree in South Philadelphia, everybody bets, everybody needs loans. They don't look at what they're doing as criminal. Okay, that's just the truth. It might be illegal in Michigan or out here where I live or wherever, but the truth is they don't look at it as that. It's not even illegal anymore. It's like, the legal bed on the street, it's not illegal to bet anymore. And the people in those neighborhoods are generally in unison with A, either being close to those people or they don't care. They have no issue with it. It's just part of doing business there. And a lot of people have no issue. It's one of the reasons that they can do a fundraiser and create all sorts of capital. People like them, people understand them. Most of the people in South Philadelphia at one point, they've lived there for years. The family have lived there for years. It's still majority Italian, okay? And look, I know there are times are the extortions or the drugs or whatever, but I think the modus operandi going forward is we need to stay out of that stuff, even though there's good money in it, we've got to stay out of that stuff because that's how you're going to get the 75, 80, 100-month sentences. Now I'm grande, he's a young guy. He's got a kid, he's got a wife. These are the times where you don't want to spend your life in jail. And no one wants to, but I think the thought is- But that's conventional wisdom. And I'm not saying that there aren't people that think like that, but let's just, again, I'm trying to weave thread needles here, bringing another guy that I'm, that I name in the current hierarchy in the administration right now, Joe Mouse, or Mousy, people get annoyed when I call him Joe Mouse. Mousy, this guy is LCN at a cellular level. He doesn't want to retire. Why would he want to retire? I mean, in his mind. Well, he wouldn't. I mean, a lot of these guys are old school, but I think if you look at a lot of the guys from his time, right, in the 80s, 70s, guys like Pungitor, Narducci, I mean, they're- They're legitimate millionaires now. Again, take out whether or not they're in the rackets. We can debate that. We know that the three people we just named, Phil Narducci, the Pungitor's, George Borgesi, they can all file a clean tax return showing a lot of money at the end of the year. Well, and I think the difference with Mousy is, he doesn't necessarily have that that we know of. He spent a lot of time in prison. And, but I think this is who he is as a guy. He's a lot of people regard him as a very, look, you look at for instance, Chicky Chang Lee. People love him. People are afraid of him, but people love him. Right. And he's the same part of like Chicky Chang who did what, 40 years in federal prison, comes home and, you know, he's taken care of, right? There's a lot of avenues. I'm sure one of these guys will get him in and put him into work. Look, I'm not debating these guys aren't gangsters. They always have and always will be. But I think the thought is, there's too much scrutiny under what we're doing, right? It's a different world. We just try to make money where we can. And most of these people are in legitimate business. Look at George, look at Georgie to your point. He's a, he's been ghost-like. He's keeping a real low key last handful of years. Lancelot is the same way. A lot of them. Yeah, yeah, Mike Lancelot. You got two guys, Georgie might be known to talk and like to analyze and talk things to death. And you know, he's known as a guy that is a little bit anxious, I guess. I can relate, I'm an anxious guy too. But he's not, he's not putting his head out the way that, you know, frankly, again, whether or not he's active or not, the way that Joe Merlino is. And the way that, you know, Dom Grondi and the guys that took that bust in 20 or 21 that just got locked up last year. These dudes in the street, right? Or are alleged to be in the street. What do you think they think of Joey on the internet? Do you think it's all just Joey or? No, okay, so we can, you know, wrap this back around for a second. Okay, so first off, Joey's gonna do what Joey's gonna do. And he gives zero fucks. I mean, that's a fact. He doesn't care. Now, another fact is that, yeah, people are upset. People are upset in New York. People are upset in New Jersey. People are upset in South Philly. And he'd be stupid not to acknowledge that. But I think he, again, I think he does acknowledge it and just says, well, tell them to go fuck themselves. I'm gonna do what I wanna do, how I wanna do it. Which is the beauty of Joey. That's why, again, that's why part, I love writing about Joey. I made Joey a part of my brand. You know, Joey can go on camera and say about either Shratwiser or George or me or whoever that, how much we, you're right. Yes, I love writing about you. I love telling your story. I've been able to build a lot of my brand on telling your story. So yeah, that's what makes him so great. So yeah, I think there are people upset and I think there are people that have sent word. I think there are people that talk to each other. I've heard that the biggest bosses in New York, the top guys are upset by this. One of them being Barney who in a lot of ways kind of made Joey as a don. There were some issues in the late 90s about whether or not he was gonna be recognized. And Barney sent word that I'm recognizing him therefore everyone else will recognize him. So I don't know what the, I don't know what if any repercussions there will be within that. But God, if you're like a Nicodemo, right? Nicodemo is doing 50 years. He's convicted of murder, right? State case, he's in Phoenix, which is like 20 minutes from Philadelphia, outside of Philadelphia. He's got a wife, he's got kids who are not grown or older. What does he think of something like that? Yeah, I'm doing 50 years here. Is it just, well, that's the cost of doing business or? Well, I mean, someone like Nicodemo who we know is close to Joey came up as Joey's driver and bodyguard. I don't know if it really blows back on him. Like it's not like he's on trial or facing it. So he probably just maybe has an opinion. I don't know if it's like, he's not taking it, some guys are taking this personally like, hey, we're in the fucking foxhole. We're taking fire. And again, if you believe that he's, he still has a piece of the game, we're taking a fire for you and still feeding you and you're off trying to play Joe Rogan. And again, that's not in Joey's thought process. Well, I think a lot of these people too, like you have to wonder like, let's say 10, 12 years ago when the Ligambi case came down, right? Stano's disappeared. He's like, yeah. I was gonna bring him up in a little bit. I'm gonna kind of throw some names and we're gonna kind of do that. Yeah, like there's a bunch of guys that what's like went quiet, you know? And I think that's how they want it, you know? And I think a lot of these people are into legit business. I think some of them will learn and say, you know what? I don't want to spend any more time in prison, right? There are two brothers of which, you know, are in prison currently in that case. You know, they're old or not old, but they're getting older. They have kids, they have families, you know? I think a lot of these guys just want to try to find some piece of their pie and just do what they do. And the scrutiny going forward is coming from the involvement with the drug trade and stuff like that. If that was not in this case, I mean, I mean, I would have done two years instead of he's gonna have to do seven. And the only reason they're doing two years even this, for this is they're mobsters. Scott, if you were arrested for bookmaking right now, you're not even going to jail. Really? If you're just not. And I think that's kind of the thought of, and this is where I think some of the women in these families, the families of these people saying to themselves, like, wait, why is it always us? You know, like we're trying to move on with our lives. You know, can some of these people move on? You know, is it always just, there's a vendetta against us. And look, I'm not saying they're not committing crimes, but in these neighborhoods, the bookmaking, the loan check, it's just a normal thing. And it's actually welcomed by a lot of the people in the neighborhood because they are doing it too. So it's, you know, that's the general thought I have. I think going forward, you'll see drugs are off limits. We're staying out of that shit. If someone's doing it, we're not doing stuff with them. We're staying out of the extortion stuff. And maybe you'll see some bookmaking, but who cares? See, I think I'll take, you know, I think there's some nuance to it. I do think there has definitely been a shift in approach since that Merlino group walked out of prison. Most of them walked out in the early 2010s or late 2000s after their big RICO case in 2000. And I agree there has been a paradigm shift. I don't think the paradigm shift is as far as removed from traditional rackets as I think that you're espousing, but I think there has been some major changes and it playing to what you're saying, which is A, I think there's a almost a requirement that, and again, with Joey, sometimes it's do what I say, not as I do, or just a rule of social apply to him. I think there's a requirement that they want guys to have legitimate employment and legitimate, they're money and legitimate things. So they're not as much of a target. And most importantly, and this is something that has, I think, been adopted across the country, there are no more murders. I mean, the last murder, we mentioned Nicodemo, that was in 2012, it's been now been 12 years. I'm sure there are things that we don't even know about that have occurred in the last 12 years that in previous times in the Philadelphia underworld would have resulted in hits that just don't happen anymore. I think also the one of the detriments this group has is the small nature of the neighborhood they're in, right? And B, the fact that they're all friends is detrimental to them in some way because they're constantly under scrutiny, they can't kind of space out and do what they do. All of them do a lot of the time have some sort of involvement in a mummers brigade and they're all seen together. So people just assume things. So it doesn't help them. It does help them in one way, the fact that they're all very close in or family. But I think it's also a detriment to them at some point, just because New York's huge, right? I mean, you can move around in New York and you can have legit businesses and it's hard to kind of put it all together. In Philadelphia, it's such a small area. They all are friends, their wives are all friends. You see them photograph together. That's a detriment to them. And look, they're all no stranger to taking photos. They take a bunch of- Yeah, they're the Instagram mop. That's what I coined the term and he's the Instagram Don, Joey. But again, it's the 21st century and things either, you either evolve or you die and the underworld and the mafia organized crime is no different. So I think that I agree that there is that kind of organic cohesion or that organic, like these guys have hung out since they were kids, so they're still hanging out now. And I think that's true. But another thing that I've heard about George and Mikey, and this is something I think Uncle Joe was also and Johnny Chang were also kind of in putting their heads together as ways to best insulate that I think that he's wanted to at least, George has wanted to, George has wanted to at least keep crews from nexus points, stop crews from the cross pollinating, I guess. So if one crew gets hit, it's not gonna affect other crews. You saw that a little bit, I think in this last bus that those were mostly Stevie guys. We also saw that with Vagambi a lot, right? How many times do we see him ordering people to his home, right? Brandy showing up, Ben Fingerloo showing up. All these different guys are showing up. And it's, again, it's a small area, man. South Philly, as far as that neighborhood goes, it's like a 10 block radius, right? From Snyder Avenue South, from A Street to 20th Street. Like it's a small area. So you could only go to so many places, but I agree, I think that you're gonna do something. That's the way to do it. I do not agree with you that there are all these different, the pungent tour group, they're out, I don't think they're involved at all. Narducci, why? You have a very, your restaurant. Yeah, but Jeff, again, we have facts that fly in the face of that. He had that same successful restaurant when he got caught, you know, loaning out money and extorting some dude and throwing his head against the wall. But you know, listen, Scott, I hear you. I think the truth is 2015, 2016, that's seven years ago already, right? Yeah, but it's not 27 years ago though. Sure, sure. Yeah, I hear you. Look, I think a lot of these guys, they're still moving around and doing some bookings, things like that. But do I think this is a cohesive unit where they're making decisions on behalf of all these different things? I don't know, I wonder. So yeah, let's just go over some, like I said, I wanna kinda do a scorecard here or, you know, breakdown of the roster. So I got Georgie as the acting boss, Mikey as the street boss. I know a lot of people question all the titles, but I think if you question the titles, you don't understand, again, not just reporting, but my reporting on Joey Merlino, who people who are very close to him have been quoted to me as saying, I'm not gonna name who they were, these people were, but, you know, Joey loves giving out titles. Like it's like a thing that he feels endears him to people and is like a reward to people for, you know, being loyal to him or doing a reward. We also heard him identify a certain person as the boss of Philadelphia. Mikey, yeah. Right, Mikey, well, do you think he said, Mikey runs Philly, something along those lines? And again, I think he does, I think Georgie is buffered from the day-to-day street stuff. I think Mikey runs the day-to-day street stuff, but I still think Georgie is final word in that organization in Philadelphia. I'm told that now that Stevie, the brothers that Jeff mentioned were the Mazzone brothers, Stevie and Sonny. Sonny's actually gonna be walking out in the next couple of months into a halfway house. He did about a year and a half on the case that came down in 21 or 20. Stevie's got about five years Lafty reported this time last year, I think. Some pictures have circulated from him inside. He's handsome, Stevie, good-looking guy, he's aged well. I heard from someone that talked about how he doesn't love the fact that he can't get his hair dye and is showing a little more gray than he wants. Let's get him some hair dye. Right, I'm like, hey man, I want anything up here. But I found it interesting that one of the photos that came out, he was with a, I'm told, a pagan. So it'll be something to keep an eye out for Stevie, Monterey Vigine, the gorilla, has been kind of put the famous pagans, boss and Philly, who was on the outs with the organization, brought back into the fold over the last couple of years. Something to keep an eye out how that plays. We know that the gorilla was tight with the Marlino guys back in the 90s. And then we saw this picture with Stevie and a guy that I'm told is a pagan. So just something to note. In, who's replaced Stevie, again, I've been told that it's gonna be Mausie, who's gonna take back his under boss position. I'm not sure if he's out of the halfway house. He's been in a halfway house for about a year, working a job, like in a grocery store or some type of clothing store or something in South Philly where I hear he holds court in the back. Go ahead, Jeff. I'll tell you this, listen, he's a guy who'd been around forever. Here's my thing, Scott. And this I think is the problem that a lot of folks have in that neighborhood as far as the scrutiny that these people are under. All the people we are talking about, are they extremely dangerous people? No. Well, not, again, I think we can pick and choose. But that's the issue, the city is a complete mess. It's a hellscape, full of people that are very dangerous people. And I think that's the thought from a lot of the people living in these neighborhoods is why are the continued scrutiny on people that were around? I'll tell you right now, Sonny Mazzone is not a dangerous person. Oh, no, he's not. But Joe Maus, the federal government would tell you that he's a violent offender who's participated in multiple murders, so. Yeah. I don't know, man. But you're right. There are people that we're talking about in this world that I would not consider violent people. Anthony Stan wasn't a violent guy. No. People that are just earners. Stevie's guy, one of Stevie's guys over the years on the outside, Louis Sheep, big bookmaker. I mean, in a guy that you would be afraid of, not the guys behind those guys. I think also too, some of the comments you hear, like in the indictments of let's go take back this or let's do that, like that's where, and let's be real to your point and to kind of play devil's advocate to what they're up to, these are the same people that have been caught on wiretap making people into the organization. Like this is, and listen, prison is different than the streets. When I see pictures from prison, I kind of just chalk it up and say, well, it is prison, right? And all these people that are at Loretto or wherever they are, they're often Philadelphia, right? They all probably ran in some circle at one point. That said, some of the evidence in this trial or in this case with the wiretaps, the making people, that does show that there is some sort of organization and how violent it is, I don't think it is, but they are killing people. No, they're not killing people. I don't even think they're really ordering beatings or any type of violence there. If someone gets into debt or somebody gets into trouble, it's you just cut the guy off. So it's smart business. There's no question. And I think it's deliberate. It's not something that just stopped happening or they just, they made a decision. There were certain, I think pivot points that Georgie and his uncle and Mikey and Stevie have come to the conclusion that they needed to make. They obviously did not take into account that a guy that they were bringing in there had flipped and was wearing a wire. There needs to be a lot more scrutiny to the people they're bringing around, right? Because this is one thing that we've seen throughout the years with this group where it's always the people on the outside, the Benfinger Luz, the Pergianos, the Ron Previties, the guys that were- J.B. Rubio's and- Right, a lot of these people that have screwed this family over the years are not from South Philadelphia, right? Or they're very questionable people. They're not from the area. They're somebody from somebody else. Like, they've got to be more, I think careful with who they're around. And this is the problem with the mob where we've seen it in New York, we've seen it in other places where I remember like a Vinny Asaro, prime example, former Bonanno heavyweight. He started by the end of his life being so desperate to make money that he's starting to do things with these street punks on the street, starting to really just kind of- Scraping the bottom of the barrel for a guy that at one point was pretty lofty in that. Yeah, but the lure of money is important. This guy's to make it 15k a month. I need him around. And we don't really look into his background. You know, in the 60s and 70s, any person that was around the mafia, they were checked out. We looked into- Those people in the 60s and 70s would never reach a point where they were putting money into the people's pockets that we're talking about. There'd be four or five other people in between them. Sure, sure. And that's the thing. There's such an interest in the almighty dollar at the end of the day where you're starting to, like I've said many times, shoot open a dirty needle where you don't really care. You just want it now and you worry about the consequences later. So I think there's a real importance of, and I'm not trying to educate these people on how to do business, but they need to tighten up some of the people they're interacting with. Because I think that's the issue and why, but their unit is strong, right? It's the individuals you're bringing around, they're not part of that unit that are the issue. Yeah, and I think, I don't know, I'm not speaking out of school here. I know that was the whole JR Rubio thing, which ended up not being that big of a deal for Joey, could have been a lot bigger, copped to that gambling case, had to go back kind of less than a year, but I know there was a conversation or there were conversations with Stevie specifically saying, we told you that you have to be careful with who you're bringing around you. Basically, admonishing him for being so loosey-goosey with bringing people, letting people, he was bringing JR Rubio back to Philadelphia. And I know that Georgie and Stevie were leery of him, and it proved to be true, so. And I mean, I've heard JR say on multiple occasions that Joey should thank you. Oh yeah, he should. No, no, he should. Because we know, which is another issue with the government, some of these guys, they send it Joey, end up being seduced by Joey. Right. It's very intoxicating being around someone like that. That's why he is who he is. That's why, again, whether he's a mob boss or just a former mob boss, anywhere he goes causes a scene. I think that the trade-off though, and these people will tell you, if you ever actually talk to them, I think the trade-off is, they all live pretty good lives for the most part. All these people live in nice homes. Some of them have shore homes. They all have decent lives. And I think for them, maybe we just look at the fact of, they just look at it as, I'm willing to do a couple of years to maintain the business that I have. And when I go to jail, just part of the game. And I guess for me, I never really understood the business of crime just because there are so many legitimate ways to make money. I mean, my father was a prime example of that. And I think looking at these people now, I kind of say to myself, well, you don't really need to live that way to earn money, right? It's one of the fallacies, I think, in this kind of the romanticization of the mafia and gangsters. And when I do talks and I try to explain to people that it's a business that's incredibly top-heavy. The guys that are the big shots, yeah, they make a lot of money. But when you go beyond that, it's like you're working a nine to five with the kind of money that you're making, you're exposing yourself to a lifetime worth of prison for at the end of the day, like you're working at Starbucks. But I think a lot of these guys have clearly looked at it and say, well, as far as, I mean, the people that you named pretty much all of them live pretty good. They live in nice neighborhoods. They, their families are taken care of. And I think to them, they look at it as at least hopefully my family's okay. I don't want to be away from them, but this is what I have to do to survive. And they're kind of, I mean, Scott, let's be honest. If let's say they retired, would the federal government actually say, okay, that's cool. Will he do it? No, no, if Joey and I, I can fully acknowledge it. If Joey Merlino was the opposite of what I'm reporting. If he wasn't taken any tribute and had no say, which I'm saying he doesn't, has no, and he just was legitimately retired and only doing podcast stuff. It wouldn't matter at all. And I think that's the issue that I think a lot of people have with the government and its obsession with people like this, where they can't, like if you or I go to federal prison, we're going to get out and we can pretty much live our life, right? Next, if we made a mistake, we paid for it. I think that's the thought where if there is a point where I'm, I feel bad for some of these people, it's that they can't move on. Like Joe Pungitor is a great flipper of homes as far as I know, but he'll always be regarded as a gangster, right? Because of things he did when he was younger or who his father was or whatever. And I think that's where I think some people find it a little bit crazy, especially given the tenor of the city itself, it is extremely crime-ridden. And you know that in Detroit, right? Same way. So I think that's the thought, but these guys are willing to trade it off because they live pretty well and it's just a costume business. I think there is also kind of a point to be made that the issues in Philadelphia and the bitterness and tension and animosity that exists between the federal government and the Bruno Scarfler organization, whatever form it's in today, it's at least in my reporting and in my research, it's an outlier of a situation. I'm not saying that there aren't other potential examples throughout history where things got very personal between the feds and the mobsters that they chased, but it's not like the, at least right now in modern day LCN, it's not at the level of personal animus that it is in Philadelphia, nowhere near in any other investigations in any other organization. It's like there is this Cowboys and Indians, cops and robbers dynamic that goes beyond, you're just doing your job and I'm just doing my job. And that's unfortunate, but I just think that's where it sits now. And to what we're saying here, it doesn't matter if they're gangsters now or gangsters then, the government's got a giant heart on for them and they want to bring cases. Now, I'll also say this and I want to throw it back to you for your analysis of this. I have pretty good sourcing with prosecutors and investigators and I'm told that there's been a, well, first of all, we know it's been reported that there's been tension within the bureau between the New York office and the Philadelphia office related to that issue with Merlino in that case. The New York office, it came out was taking things off the hard drive or off the, not the hard drive, off the information system that the federal government shares, they were encrypting the stuff that was related to the Merlino investigation in New York. So the Philadelphia people, when they would go on the database, they couldn't see that anything was being done with a target of theirs. So there was art. And I think I've also been told that there's some contention or it's a contentious back and forth between Washington where that who makes all the final decisions and Philadelphia in that Washington has said, we are no longer bringing racketeering cases against Joey Merlino. You're either bringing murder cases or you're not bringing anything. I think if you're a mobster today, I'm sorry, in Philadelphia, I think the guys that are in jail now, probably the last time they'll be there unless someone comes forward and offers up some stuff. Look, their goal is anyone that's in federal law enforcement. The goal is to find a doer for Casasanto. Yeah, I think there's about six unsolved cold case Philly mob murders from about 99 to 12, but 12 has kind of already been adjudicated. It really only kind of goes from 99 to 03-ish or four. So yeah, unless they can find someone who was involved to flip or someone who pulled a trigger. You're never gonna, they're never gonna break that. So, and I think the thought is we need to move on to the new business, right? And I think that's kind of where they are with it. To continue to wrangle people up for bookmaking and stuff is just, I don't think it's that of importance. Now, the state may do it due to the fact that the state makes money off the sports books, but I think as you alluded to, it's probably time to move on to new business. But I also think people like Georgie understand that and take advantage of it. Sure. And in some of that, I wanna again, get your analysis of. I think that is why Georgie, again, in my reporting, made a lot of connections in prison and has some irons in the fire with some in other parts of the country, I'm told. Nothing huge, but particularly I'm gonna say New England. There was a crew that was opened up there in the late 90s with Ralph Natal and Joey Merlino and Georgie back in the day. That crew went dormant for a while. And then I've been told it's back up and moving the last decade. Sean, I know people tell me I butcher Sean's name. Viteri Vetteri, Sean, I'm being told has been a capo or named a capo for that crew at some point in the last decade and that there is pretty consistent communication and people going back and forth between Rhode Island and Massachusetts and Philadelphia. And I think some of that is, Georgie knows as long as it's kinda just related to gambling. And again, this is my editorial. I'm not saying that this is exactly what he thinks or what the government thinks with. I think that Georgie feels like, as long as it's gambling and maybe some white collar stuff, even though we're going up there a bunch, we don't have to worry about that much scrutiny because they've been going back and forth there for a while and there ain't no cases coming. And I think he's probably right. Yeah. My thought, if I'm these people that are in Philadelphia now, let the guy in Florida do what he does. We're just gonna do what we do, right? And I think that's general, the consensus. As you alluded to though, Borghazy is a rich man, right? He's got a lot of money, okay? He's done okay for himself. I think the lure of being in that life is probably fun for these guys. I think people, they see stuff like what we're doing right now. A lot of these guys love hear it about themselves, right? I heard an old story that Jackie DeRos, the former high up in the Colombo crime family used to get gangland news delivered to him. A lot of those guys in prison, yeah. So it's like, I think a lot of them generally kind of gonna get killed. I think from, again, just in my own firsthand research or whatever, it goes one extreme or the other. Either they care a lot about what's being written about them or they don't pay attention at all and don't care at all. There's no kind of middle ground on that. Right. I think it's, again, just they are well aware that there's new business being pursued by the, and this has happened for a while. I mean, it's no secret that the government who have gone to terrorism and all the things, right? Drug trade's obviously a big thing. So yeah, I think they know that. And as I said before, they're just not really that deeply involved with some of the really hard stuff that's gonna put you away. And you look at like a Servideo. Servideo is one of the only, he's kind of a randomness of these people. Joey Electric out in New Jersey reports to, we'll get, well, I wanna move to New Jersey in a second, but reports to Joe Scoop's Lakata. Right, yeah. And I think they're kind of the randomness of this. They're the ones that are getting involved with the narcotics, which are gonna bring you a longer census. Though there is one name that I find interesting and we've heard of this individual a lot. We've heard that his standing has significantly went up is our buddy, Tuchio. Yeah, well, I heard Pete might've got a button before he went to prison. Again, another thing, we can sit here and we can, there's a lot of subtlety, a lot of nuance and a lot of layers. And whether or not the organization is headfirst into hardcore rackets like they were in the past or not, the fact is my reporting tells me, and I know that Dave and George have also reported this, that they're bringing guys in and they're bringing guys in in a pretty like efficient, consistent basis. And some of these are kind of, some of these making ceremonies and some of these machinations I'm being told kind of feed into what I've been reporting about, Georgie and Uncle Joe and Johnny Chang wanting to keep things separate. Sometimes I'm being told that there are makings that certain people in the family don't even know about and that certain people have authority to conduct making ceremonies and it's not just the boss. So again, it's all speculation, none of that's been confirmed, but someone like Pete Tuchio, to me, Pete, someone like Pete Tuchio into a lesser degree, Don Grande, but definitely Pete Tuchio, he went running into prison with the wind at his back. He sees this as a good thing, even though it's a big chunk of a sentence. I think that's the sad like Denim Wah that he's in, is that he's that delusional that he thinks, and I agree with what you're saying, there are plenty of Pete Tuchio's in South Philadelphia, right, that would welcome that. And Peter looks at it as, this is college, literally, for me, like this is, and what's sad is like, he spent his whole 20s. We jump in from crime family to crime families with the Lucchesis and with the Bananos and the Gambino. And what he's doing in these terms is, he doesn't get out until 2030, when it's like 35, his 30s are gone pretty much, but he is looking at it as, this is a, I'm gonna be around, look, if he's not flipped by now, which he wouldn't, but he's going to do. So I think he's dug in, he's around the people he wants to be with, and it's sad because you and I both know this is, for him, not a good way to live. It's gonna be a long life. What's your take on, there was a picture that was circulating when Tuchio was on Bond, before his sentence, Dom Grande, and I believe Frank de Pasquale, he came, de Pasquale, how do you pronounce the guys, the lawyer? De Pasquale. De Pasquale came to visit him, took some pictures in the backyard. I don't know where Mr. de Pasquale stands or not, I know there's been some people, or the government alluding to him in some filings as a made guy or close to a made guy, even though he's never been indicted or implicated in a major public way, but the point I'm making is, Pete's on Bond in Howard Beach, and you got a Dom Grande as a coppo, and you got whatever Frank is, the fact that he's in good standings, an older guy, he's tight with some of the guys that are I think in their 60s and 70s, coming to see him, traveling to go with him. I think they view Peter as a lost dog who people would wash his hands of. Ronnie G was done with him, his uncle was done with him, the Luccheses were done with him, like he had nowhere else to go and he so badly wanted to be around people, but this is the same kid that was, he had ostracized himself in Howard Beach, he's kicked out of every bar, he's getting in fights with people, he had nowhere else to go, and he wanted to be around that world so much that, and this is again, another issue of maybe howling around with people that they're not from, he is not from Philadelphia, he's from New York, how much do we know about him? But I think they viewed it as let's see where he is, we'll keep him close but not too close, and he's against answering the call so far, but listen, here's the thing Scott, I've been laughing, other friends of mine in this genre laugh because I say he's the future the mafia, he is. Right, because they're misinterpreting the way that you're saying it. No, but the truth is Scott, when he went into prison, he was what, late 20s, when he first got involved with crime, he was a dumb 20-something kid, but time he gets out of prison, he's 35, I'm a totally different man that 34 than I was at 25, and he's been hardened, I mean, he's in a medium security federal prison right now around hardened people. But I think when you say future, I don't think you're not just saying like, oh, he's gonna be this huge fast riser and it's gonna become a boss, I think you're saying, and tell me if I'm wrong, that people like Pete Tuchio, that's the future of the mafia, like, like it, love it, if it's good, if it's bad, that type of person is who the mafia is. And I'm not saying he's going to be, as you alluded to, he's not gonna be a high guy, if he will be a, you know, he's your- That's who the mafia is in the 21st century, you're right. And listen, I think the thought about is, like a lot of these guys, when Chinchaganti was young, he could really botched Frank Costello. Yeah, he should have been killed in traditional, you know- I mean, we've seen, I mean, John Gotti did some things when he was young that he shouldn't have did. I mean, a lot of these people did things. It didn't take away from the fact they become very high ranking people. There's a, Scott, case in point, there's a federal memo. This was from a cooperator. I believe it was someone from the Bonanno family many years ago, that a lot of people viewed Tony Salerno as a dumb individual that could not run a family at one point. He turned out pretty good. So I think the thought of who these people are when they're kids is totally different. I know I'm not saying too Joe's gonna turn out like any of these people, but in the small little group that he's in, he's young, which is different from a lot of these people. They're all very, they're 30, 40 years older. So he's viewed as, you know. So let me just, I'm gonna just hit on a couple final things related and then we're gonna wrap it up. But some people that I'm told are Capos or crew bosses, what we got Joe Scoops in New Jersey, he's an OG, Joe Locata, Joe Scoops, could be a conciliary, I suppose. I know Uncle Joe Lagambi I'm told is in semi-retirement. I think he still gives counsel to Georgie and Mikey, but he's not on like a daily retainer or anything where he's, but New Jersey is, you know, you got him, you got the big Luke Zini. Look, Locata's 82 at this point. You gotta wonder his, though the thing about him is that's interesting, we saw with like the Nikki skin stuff where he was at that lunch at where they had the big meeting where- LaGrelia. Yeah, where it was LaGambino people, Allie, Alpha- John Gambino, John Gambino was there. Where the time was on the ruling panel. Yeah, so I mean, that goes to show, I think if there's someone in that family with some sort of panache in New York, it's him. Yeah, Joe and Johnny Chang. I know that Johnny Chang is someone that everybody, at least everyone I've talked to, people, my sources and the five families, they might have their opinions about Joey. Again, love them or hate them, but they all love Johnny Chang. And the thing about LaGambi, I lived in South Philly for years, okay? I know these neighborhoods, I've been around these people, not necessarily people we're talking about, but LaGambi is a God in that neighborhood. He just is, okay? I know people that he got jobs for. I mean, he is supremely well regarded, even down the shore as well. And Sharp in a very, very sharp mind, someone who was known for that in his younger days, almost like a rain, people call me a rain man with some of my recollection, but that Joe's ability to work numbers in his head and handicap and understand the certain nuances of the finances of that world was almost like, at an elite level. And a lot of people forget too, he was given a life sentence at one point and he got out on a technicality and he's a pretty good life. I mean, I think if you're a gangster in Philadelphia, he's a guy who, when you're 85 or whatever he is, that's the life you want to have. Him and Phil Narducci, allegedly, did that hit together. They were both convicted of it. And then the case was thrown out. It was the 1986 or 1985 or 86 Frankie Flowers, a DL Fonzo hit. And they allegedly did it together. And it's interesting. It's interesting to think that Phil Narducci is, and Joey Merlino are the same age, but they come from completely different eras. Scott, the saddest thing we have in this genre and this world we're in is how many stories will never be told. I look at Jackie Nose dying and the stories he must have had. I hope someone like with him, someone like Quiet Dom, I hope that their family was aware of the value that they had in this almost like a living history book. I hope they did record him or video to him just so they could have it for themselves. If there's one person I could talk to, it's Ligambi. I mean, he'd never do it, but... He did an interview with George and then took a lot of grief for it. I would love to. I mean, he's a guy. I mean, the stories, the, you know, just the, as you said, the history book that he is. I mean... He looks great. He looks great for 83 years old, man. I hope he's got all the tears. He sometimes on his porch, you just see it in the bummer. He's always out, you know? Two or three more things I want to touch on. A couple that I'm naming a couple, not a name that gets thrown out a lot, but I've heard is in really good standing in charge of some of the hangout spots, the clubhouse spots, screwy Louis D'Angelo. He's a real OG guy, has been around forever. And as kind of in later life, I'm told, kind of made an ascent. His son is in the NHL. Correct, Tony. Yeah, he's played with the Flyers at one point, played with the Rangers. He's an interesting guy. I know of some of the kids that he had. I don't know him too well, but I know of him. And I've heard his name a lot recently. And then Damian Canalicchio, I'm told, is now in a couple spot. He had been offered it. And I think he wanted to wait till he was off paper. He was Stevie Mazzone's guy, the way that Anthony Nicodimo was Joey's guy back in the 90s, kind of the driver bodyguard protégé. And again, everybody, one of these guys that everybody likes, I haven't heard anyone say, you know, Damian, kind of like what I said about Joe Mouse, if I call him Joe Mouse, people get, I've had like 20 people say, start calling him Joe Mouse. No one calls him Joe, but Mousie, a guy that people are genuinely afraid of, but really like, and it's very popular. We also did his time. One thing I always remember Damian for is he's in a photo in prison with Bruno Delacato. Right, Bruno Delacato, yep. Which is quite a one that we've all seen. And then Delaware County. I know it was Johnny Chang's for a while and Georgie kind of took it. I've been told that, and there's some sourcing on this and some paperwork that Mikey Lance's nephew, Albert Lance Lottie, Alcat kind of looks after that area. Joey's down in Florida. So yeah, I think we've hit all the high points here, kind of like where we stand with the Philadelphia mob in 2024, I think the takeaway is there's a lot there to dissect, there's a lot of, there's still maybe more questions and answers. And who knows if there'll be more cases, like I'm being told that just they're not gonna be bringing the gambling, extortion, loan sharking cases anymore against the big guns. So we'll see how it evolves. But Jeffrey, thank you for- I think the takeaway that you alluded to is, I think if the guys that have made it through and the guys that will make it through, I feel like the home stretch is there, as long as they stay away from the really egregious crimes, the bodies, the beatings, the arson, I think they should just be business as usual. They'll make way into more business and that'll be it. And I'll just end it with saying in terms of Joey's guys, meaning his guys in this podcast world, not his guys in Philadelphia, but as long as they're being smart with how they are recording how much money they're taking in and not trying to get cutesy, because believe me, the government's gonna be going over all that stuff with a fine tooth comb and they're taking money in. So I would just, I hope you guys are, I'm sure you are doing your due diligence and making sure that everything's accounted for. And if you do that, you're gonna be putting Joey in the best possible position that he could ever have because he's gonna be able to go at the end of, when he's doing his taxes in April, he's gonna be able to say, hey, I made legitimate money through this legitimate endeavor. There was nothing illegal and it's gonna, for him, it's gonna be a fuck you to the government. So I'm happy for that. And I think as long as they're doing it the right way, which I'm hoping they are and I think they are, they'll put Joey in a good position. But again, if they're not, that's just gonna open up another exposure plan. America loves a villain, whether they're an old school villain, still a villain. And they're in the landscape. He's the ultimate anti-hero. He's like America's anti-hero. And he's definitely built a following. So good for them. Well, thank you, Jeffrey. Please go to all of Jeffrey's platforms. Just let everyone know and I'm sure they know. Yeah, I will say, and I'm not gonna tell you who it is on the air, but I'll tell you right when we get off. I have a huge interview coming out next week with someone that has never been heard from. So I'm gonna tell you about it. So check me out, just search to sit down and you'll be able to find me. And I'll tease out, we got some great exclusive interviews coming up on the OG pod as well over the next couple of weeks. Couple guys from the outlaw biker world that have never been heard from, one of them a pretty infamous Hell's Angel. So I'm just gonna tease that out and I'm excited about it. So please like, subscribe, share, both everything when we're regarding the OG pod, everything we're regarding to the sit down, a true crime podcast. Thank you, Jeff for joining us. Thank you. I will see you next week on another long form episode of the OG pod. I'm Scott Bernstein. We're out.