 Next up, a final conversation, ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, before we take a short coffee break. This conversation is in many ways a continuation of the themes Ben and Lisa have just explored. A handful of chefs with a whole range of different experiences will now join us on stage to reflect upon what it means to be a parent in our industry. From their various perspectives as chefs, restaurant owners and managers. Tatiana Leval, Suzanne Baugh, Matt Orlando and Nicholas Eckstitt will discuss how parenting is really everyone's issue. Moderated by the talented editor-in-chief of Munchies Denmark, Lars Hineskopf, they'll talk about situations they have encountered during their careers and the ways their restaurants have tried to nourish a supportive environment and foster a better culture. Please put your hands together. Thank you, everyone. You want to sit there, Winston? My name is Lars. I work for a food website called Munchies, which means that I spent my evenings hanging out in restaurants or playing Legos with my six-year-old son, or trying to do both at the same time. As a parent, I'm lucky enough to live in this great socialist wonderland that is Denmark where there's an idea that work and life should be balanced. And that's really easy to say when you don't have to worry about that 7 a.m. delivery to your restaurant or the 1 a.m. deep clean in the kitchen. So I'm really thrilled that we have a panel here today for amazing people who know exactly what it's like balancing those two most precious things in life or trying to work out how to balance. Trying to balance. Yeah, those two most precious things in life, which are children and restaurants. If we talk about a gap between where we are now with the industry and where we'd like to be, I think this is a conversation that we can't avoid. And as we also talked about yesterday, part of that conversation is challenging this idea that this is somehow a women's issue. This is a parent's issue. It's an issue for everybody in the restaurant, for colleagues, for owners. And there's not going to be a great four-point plan at the end showing us the route to how we're going to get there. But we're going to try to do this in the spirit of the symposium so far, which seems to be about honesty and openness. And as Wade mentioned yesterday, which is really refreshing to talk about how we are imperfect as parents, that's really, really good to remind ourselves because parenting is essentially just essentially just one big guilt trip. And it's I think it's really important if we can sort of get everything out on the table, maybe we can take this conversation further. So we're going to hear from these four amazing people a little bit. We're hoping that this conversation will hopefully spark some opinions and some questions from you guys. So we'll try to leave a little bit of time at the end for everybody to chip in. But to start off, I know you know these guys really well, but we'll get the panel to introduce themselves. Is that? Oh, I'll start with me. OK. My name is Niklas Ekstedt. I'm a Swedish chef. I run my restaurants in Stockholm City. I'm a dad of two boys. One is with me now. And I try to balance my life between being a family father and running the restaurant. And as you mentioned a little bit, I mean, Sweden and Denmark are very equal in that sense. We are both in the La La Land of socialist government and amazing benefits of being a dad. But it's it's also puts even more pressure on us as being a father because socially it's not accepted not to help out at the house with your with your kids in Sweden. Almost all dads take time off parental leave when their kids is around one one and a half years old. And we have to be at school. You know, it's it's a very like if you don't spend time with your kids, you get socially like, you know, downgraded basically. So like if you want to if you want to keep contact with your family and friends in Sweden and being a dad, you need to spend time with your kids. And yeah, so that's Swedish. Hi, everyone. I'm Suzanne Barr, a Jamaican, a Canadian American hailing from North America. Happy to be here and to see you all here. I have attempted with all to keep a balance and it's been a very difficult struggle. But I think being a woman, we have those balances. That's what we constantly do. That's what we do best. We keep a balance. So in my restaurants that I am currently working with and my restaurant that I currently I passed in the past had Saturday, I met, you know, my son being in the restaurant with me every day. Going on like on the line with me was always utterly very important for him to see myself in that position. I'm Tatiana. I'm French. I have restaurants in Paris that I run with my sister. I have a two year old daughter. She has a seven months old baby. So we run a very family business. Our babies are with us a lot. Our staff has basically seen them grow and taken lots of care of them. And it's been really, really essential to our finding our balance and making things OK for us in that matter. My name is Matt Orlando. I have a restaurant about 100 meters from here. And I am the newest addition to this group. I have a daughter. She turns one on Wednesday and I'll just be completely frank. Before we start this conversation, I am far from finding balance in this. And that's why I'm really excited to talk about it, because you have all these emotions inside you. And this is a I just want to just roll over me right now. It is an emotional roller coaster and maybe just to start with you, Matt, remember you're telling me this, maybe you were in that early station parenting haze, but you wanted to go back and work like early stage, within hours of your beautiful daughter being born. Yes, this is one of those just surreal. When I think about it, it's a surreal situation that I can't believe even happened. I was my wife, Yulia and my daughter over there. But Yulia went into labor and we went to the hospital and gave birth. And I was like, oh, you know, Christian Pugliese is eating in a club. And I just need to go to the restaurant for a few hours. And and she was like, OK, let me. But I'm my wife being the most amazing, beautiful, understanding, supportive person was like, OK, I'll call my parents to come and hang out. And then and I was like, OK, cool. And then some time went by and it just kind of. And like hit me like a ton of bricks. I was like, what the fuck am I thinking right now? And and I actually sent Christian a text message saying, hey, I'm really not going to be able to be there tonight. I'm really sorry. But Yuli just gave birth and he just his response was what? I had. Yeah, that's fine. I don't even I don't even know why we're having this conversation right now. But it just it goes to show you as chefs, we are so just consumed by what we do that you and when something new, like having a daughter comes into your life, you only know one way to act. And you're all of a sudden you you have this person in your life that you have to make decisions around. And it's it was it's like I said, I'm still searching for the holy grail of having a restaurant, having a daughter, having a wife. I mean, like I said, I'm I'm the luckiest guy on the planet for for Yulia. And I just I'm so thankful for that. And that just maybe sometimes she's too forgiving. And, you know, it's just it's really difficult. And and it's emotionally and guilt driven. And also, it's an amazing thing for Sonia to know when she grows up that she means more to you than Christian Puglisi. Absolutely. Oh, I finished it. That's awesome. Yeah, we were showing some really sort of sappy pictures before of a wonderful kids in in kitchens and and elsewhere. And there was one of you's to send where miles is in a sling while you're chopping onions. So what's going on? Could you maybe just I know you were talking about you wanted to take a longer break before you went back into the restaurant. You were back in there within five, six weeks. Yeah. Could you just talk us through how that whole process was for you? Yeah, definitely. You know, in Canada, very much like here and it's a socialist country. So you have the option to actually, you know, take time off if you're either self-employed or if you are not self-employed if you work for a company. But being a small business that we were, we were a family run small business, I didn't have really much options. I just knew that I was going to have this baby. And then maybe take some time off and then go back to work. And, you know, it was that day, like the first day when I found out I was pregnant was a shock. You know, I was in traffic driving and I had my car was full of supplies because it was opening night, opening night of my first restaurant, my first time doing this, you know, with my partner and my doctor calls me and I had been feeling ill and he was like, hey, you know, we really need to see you in the office. And I said, okay, what's going on? And he's just like, well, I know what's been happening. He's like, I need to meet with you and Johnny because you guys are having a baby. And I was like at a red light. What? And it literally, you know, first thing that flashed in my mind was like, I was scared and freaked out and also excited. And then also like, what are you saying? And as I continued to drive to the restaurant, I pulled up and my husband's out and he's like, okay, so you're ready for tonight. It's opening night. I'm like, yeah, I just talked to the doctor and he's just told me that we're having a baby and this fucking, you know, we got so much to do. And he's like, wait, what did you just say? And it changed my life. So the same night that I found out that I was having a baby was the same night that I found out that I opened my restaurant. It was the same night I found out I was having a baby. So I had two babies at the same moment and it just kind of opened up a whole new life for me. And, you know, culturally, as women of color and black people, we have our children with us at all times. That's what my grandmother did. That's what my mother did. That's what I do. My son is always on me. So when I returned to the kitchen, I knew where else was he going to be with me on the line. I had a very small kitchen. I had three chefs next to me and in between service, in between tickets coming through, I was off the line breastfeeding, then I was back on the line. And that's what we do. That's what we do as women. We create those possibilities, those realities, because we don't have any other choices. We have, we choose to do what feels right and what felt right for me was exactly what I did. And what I do every day and I don't ever regret one moment and I'll open up a restaurant any time. Anybody out here wants to open a restaurant? Let's go. But it's a it's a wonderful, wonderful thing. Speaking about opening restaurants, my Swedish wife helped me do a bit of Google before I got here. And she pointed out that because because Eckstad has been interviewed both for Swedish mama magazine and also for Swedish papa magazine. So. Oh, God, a bit of an authority on the subject. I don't know how I became a role model for dads and moms. But but in those interviews, you talk a lot about how having a child changed your perspective and outlook on the industries from sort of seeing it from a gastronomic point of view, so more human. Yeah, definitely. I mean, first of all, we need to like taking time off. I don't know if some, you know, a lot of people who've probably been with two kids, it's not being off. It's it's a lot of time and it's time consuming to be home with kids. It's like it's actually nice to go back to work, you know. You know, it's like being with a one and a three year old at home, you know, then tearing down the whole place. It's it's difficult. So it's not it's, you know, the restaurant business is pretty easy compared to parenthood, actually. It's like so, yeah. So, I mean, I don't know. But, you know, I've always been kind of very soft going in the kitchen and I have a very like very I very good temper. So I never scream and and actually it's I I'm almost like chefs and cooks in Sweden know that I treat my kitchen a little differently than other other like top restaurants. So it's it's good and bad because the bad part of it that everyone that applies for a job for me, either pregnant or have two kids at home. So it's so I'm so and but the good thing with it is that I get a lot of attention of the way that I run the restaurant. So all dads get to take a year off with their kids. Well, we're lucky that, you know, it's the government's pace for it, but it's it's socially accepted and it's kitchen very accepted in the kitchen so everyone can return. So actually I have right now as we speak, I have three head chefs. So two head chefs that run the restaurant and then one that's at home and then they roll and and all of them have small children. So it's it works and it's it's a system that that, you know, I think I have a great restaurant, but of course it wouldn't be easier if I wouldn't have had this approach towards life. But it's it works, you know, and then on the other hand and then did that room and kind of spread and like how I treat my stuff when they with their kids and how I am with my kids that they are very hands on the help out in the kitchen. And it's very like like that. So and that's why a lot of newspapers and magazines interview me in in these subjects. And that's probably why I'm why I'm sitting here now. But but it's also changed your gastronomy because, you know, it's like with having a family, it's kind of like you need to cook at home as well. You know what I mean? Like everyone knows how you change your perspective as a chef because when you don't have a family and you work at a top restaurant, you never eat at home. You either eat staff food or you eat out. You you don't have you don't have a kitchen. I mean, when I before I had a family, I had I didn't even have milk in my refrigerator. I don't know why I had a refrigerator. It was just like so suddenly kind of changes you because you need to cook for the family. And that and and you know, kids are difficult eaters. They are they are your most difficult critics. And so that changes you cannot figure out how to cook at home as well. So yeah, it changes. It changes in many different perspectives. So speaking of sort of restructuring family life, Tatiana, you were up here four years ago talking about how scary was to open a restaurant. That turned out pretty good. How scary was it to face up to sort of family life? And well, it it worked out really well. My daughter's turning two. I was lucky enough to be able to take some time off. I have a team in the kitchen that's been with us since the beginning. And I was actually having a conversation. I think with you saying that I took almost four months, which is huge for France. And I was talking to someone Danish and and was like, that's not a lot at all. But I was I was for me and for France, it's a lot. And I'm very proud to be able to have done that. And I live right by the restaurant. So I go there every I went there every day with the baby. And so did my sister when she had her. So we got to get some time off. It's still in the middle of how we're trying to run things now. We just opened a new restaurant. So it was new problematics of like scheduling and and working around everyone's schedule. The teams, the families we had for a month are our wonderful husbands roaming around the restaurant on weekends with the strollers. Just wondering what to do when they could come in to eat. And and thanks to them and the team. We got to see our daughters because they were like in the restaurant all the time. But yeah, one of one thing that happened was that at some point, one of the new members of the staff was a bit surprised that our babies were always in our feet. And like suddenly spoke up and said, well, what about what about our families? And my first reaction was to get a little bit angry because like it was defensive. And I felt like I was I was some I was being attacked. My family was being attacked. And then I gave it some thought and I was thinking, yeah, well, what about his family? And now I think the next step is what about their families? The younger ones, the ones who don't have one yet. And and how are they going to be able to do that with less responsibility or an or a less flexibility? Now, this is this also sounds very good. Like we found some balance in life here. But if you sort of rewind to when you started out in this career, when you guys were young cooks or you could have been in front of a house, like would it ever pass through your mind that you could have a child? I mean, I know Matt, you talked about how having a child seemed to be an impossibility. I mean, we actually talked more about not having kids. And I don't think we ever formally had a conversation about having a kid. And but you know, when when Yuli came, I'm she is very graceful in her delivery of everything in life. But she came to me and she, I'm a avid collector of rare new balances. And she came to me and she gave me a little, a little pair of new balances in a box like this big. And my brother just had a kid. I was like, oh, this is so cool. These are for Jacks. This is so cool. And she looks at me, she goes, nope. These are not for Jacks. And I, it was the first dose of this emotion because I had not at one point, I just looked at her and it felt like exactly what was supposed to be happening. I didn't regret it or I didn't question it. I didn't, it just kind of was, it just, she said it to me and it was like, it was almost like this certain piece kind of fell over me. And you know, there's so many things you think you're look, you're, it seems like before you have kids and you, everyone who has kids can attest to this, it feels like you're constantly looking for something to satisfy you and whether that's traveling and doing this and doing that. And you're always searching for that thing. And then when you have a kid, all of a sudden that desire goes away because that's what I think instinctually you've been looking for it that you didn't have. And, but along with that comes this, obviously great responsibility. And I think that is the most emotionally the most challenging part of kind of, I think the position that I'm in is I think everyone here is in that works in the industry that has kids, is that you've, you're so attached to your restaurant and you put everything into it, your soul, your heart and you really put yourself out there. And then it's so hard to let that go a little bit and guilt is a huge part of this. And you're sitting there breaking down a beef back and all of a sudden you're thinking to yourself, what am I doing here? Like my daughter's at home and it's, and you're just like, how do, how do I fix this? And then of course that goes away and it comes in waves and I don't, I'm far from having the answer to that and I am, I'm still really searching for that and but there's this, for me also I have this, I really love to be in the kitchen and I also, I knew, I know how it was when I was a young cook and you really look up to the person that you work for and I felt, I feel, I felt and I still do feel guilty when I leave at 10 30 at night instead of staying till the end for the clean down and talking about the next day. I have, I still feel guilty about that. I don't wanna feel guilty about that. I feel bad about even feeling guilty about that but I'm not gonna lie, I feel guilty about it. And I had an amazing conversation with Max who is about to become the first head chef at a mass in October and he and I talk a lot mostly about kind of personal stuff and emotions and stuff like that because he's a really interesting, smart individual and we had a conversation about six months ago and I was telling him about this, like, you know, I was trying to tell him, you know, I'm gonna try to start leaving an hour or two early every night because I feel you're taking your, you can do that. I mean, this is gonna be your job and he looked at me without even me like and I said to him, I said, you know, I do, just so you know, I do feel a little guilty about this and he looks at me and he goes, chef, you should never, ever feel guilty about leaving early to go home and see your family. And I really like to get that reassertion from you. If you put your hand on your heart and be honest for you guys, have there been that moment when somebody came into your kitchen and said, whether that's front of house or cook said, I'm about to have a child and your first initial thought was, oh, for fuck's sake. Yeah, of course, every time. I mean, it's in your mind or it's not on your tongue, right? It's like, oh, shit, how are we gonna figure this out? Of course, it puts you as an employer. It makes, I mean, to be honest, I mean, it makes your life more difficult when you have a lot of employees with kids because they're unpredictable, you know, they're unpredictable. You don't know if they're gonna show up or not because they have the responsibility at home. If their kids have like vomiting or chicken pox or anything, of course they need to stay at home and it's hard in our industry because it's not like you work at a desk and someone can do it the day afterwards. You know, the guests are there, they need to be fed and the miss and plus need to be made. So it's like, it's either now or never. I mean, so I find it really, really difficult but it's a challenge and we have other challenges. How do we change that story for the next person who thinks having children is the end of their career in the cook? Well, at Saturday dinette, I actually sought out for mothers because I wanted to be able to bring them into an environment that was nurturing. So I worked with an organization in Canada called the Massey Center and I worked, we were currently working on a program and I have been working on a program called the Dinettes Program and it's to employ young women between the ages of 18 and 29 and because I feel that the future of kitchens and the future of this industry has to look at women and our position and mothers and our positions and yes, I'm scared that someone comes into my kitchen and tells me that they are about to have a kid but I'm like, okay, bring your kid to the kitchen. So, you know, I'm making all attempts if and when I open up another restaurant to be able to find a space where I can have the kids I have in-house daycare. That's a reality. Why can't we create that reality? Where you come on, you come into a restaurant and you feel that vibe when children are around. The children aren't a nuisance. Children are the future. We look at the children to see what's gonna happen and so I feel like if I can bring a child into a space, a mother into a space and give them training and in confidence and education, then I feel like they're gonna lead and they're gonna continue to lead and they're gonna raise the next man because I'm a mother that's raising a young man. My son is Miles and he's three years old and I don't look at him as a child. I'm raising a man and I'm a female black chef cooking in North America and it's my utmost love and desire to be able to show him the way because the way is coming from the root which is us as leaders and as mothers and I solely feel that when I employ these young ladies into my kitchen and I invite any young woman to challenge an asset of their employers and then of their staff and their peers to support them as well for employment opportunities because that's really what's gonna see the future of hospitality. That's gonna see the future of culinary arts and graduating from universities and colleges and such and programs that really nurture that and understand that and support that. I wanted to open it up to the audience now to see if you guys have any opinions and stories that you want to share. So we're gonna pass some microphones out. It's really important that you hang on to the microphone and wait until you got it and then state your name and keep hold of the microphone. So we have somebody over here in the front. I have an 18-year-old and a 14-year-old so I've raised kids in the restaurant industry my entire career. I'm curious and I've worked under chefs. I'm a pastry chef so I never owned my own space but I've worked under chefs that at the time didn't have kids but were for some reason or another they had no business understanding what I was trying to do but allowed me especially my daughter to pretty much be raised not to the extent of Susanna Myles but they would let Maggie Donovan come in and hang out in the restaurant while I prepped all day. So my daughter, she's the youngest was pretty much raised in the restaurant while I was there. Since then, I mean this is years ago, she's 14. Two chefs in particular that I worked under have come back to me since we're still friends, we talk a lot, they both have kids now and they have said to me like we had no idea what you were trying to juggle and the culture of their restaurants have changed remarkably since they've had kids and I'm just curious, some of you just had kids so maybe you don't see the results yet but I'm kind of curious, of course, parenthood changes you as a person, I'm curious how it's changed you as chefs. Do you want to know, Tatiana? Well it's quite recent actually. But it has changed, I think we've just started to give it more thought as to how we can make things easier because what I remember is while I was working for others, I did not see how it would have been possible to have a child before I had my own place. I don't see any of my former chefs letting me come to work with my baby. I'm not saying that it would be possible for us to do that, we work in really small spaces but we have been giving it a lot of thought. Most of our staff is under 25 so they're still really young but I think that it's really put things into perspective and we've been really thinking of how we can give people more freedom in their work and they're organizing their day if they had a child and if they had to juggle with daycare and nightcare because it's also our realities, nightcare as well. Things like that, just like practicalities, how we can make things practically okay for them. I also think that we should push governments and politicians way harder to make it easier for restaurant employees. We do put a lot of pressure on chefs and employers but the amount of tax, the VAT here is 25% of Denmark, right? One fourth of everything that you've paid this week going to restaurants around town goes straight into the government's pockets and they should pay nightcare, make it beneficial for people who work night because the city is not only run during the day, it's run during night as well so we need to socially make it easier for people. Got any other questions or comments out there? Hello, so my name is Kasper, I'm a local Dain. Both my parents are chefs and my question for you is that do you want to see your kids become like you, chef in this crazy industry? I want... I didn't start out as a chef. I worked in the film industry for 15 years as an executive producer. I've been a chef for 13 years and I always thought if I ever have kids, I'm an older mom, I have my son at 38 and I'm 42 now and I always thought how much of what I've done in my life do I want my kids to be a part of because I come from two working class parents that had really hard jobs and the first entrepreneur I ever met was my father and I couldn't be more proud of what my dad gave to me and so if I can give that gift to my son, by all means, as long as he's happy, as long as he's creating and doing the thing that inspires him the most, passion is gonna drive him and if it's becoming a chef then that's what it's gonna be. Well said. Any other guys that had that moment like then, were you not used to where you thought I'm just gonna become a stand-up comedian instead? Is this too rough or? I definitely have not had that moment. For me, I don't, I personally, I don't like to, and I don't want this to come out bad, Dan, it's not like being a stand-up comedian is running away from anything but I don't want to run away from anything. I want to hit it head-on and like how can I figure out the situation I'm in and having a kid has really changed the way I think. It's forced me to really evaluate my day. That's kind of where I'm at right now. How do I reduce my, be more efficient so I can have that extra hour and a half in the morning with her and come home earlier and just be efficient and feel like I had a good day at work. So as a chef, from a chef's standpoint, that's how having a kid has affected me and, but no, I couldn't imagine being anything other than a chef and having a kid. I can't wait to show my kid this business. I love this industry to the bottom. It saved my life, you know, it showed me so much respect, work ethics, food, it made, you know, it's made me a possibility for me to travel the world. Yeah. We gotta be proud as well. This is a beautiful industry. I mean, being in food today is so much fun compared to it was 20 years ago when I started. We've done a lot of change and we're heading the right way, I think. So, yeah. Yeah. This is somebody else who missed. We've got somebody up here on the right, front of the stage. Just hang on the mic. Yes. Thank you. Hi, my name's Jared. I just wanted to, it's not really a question. I just wanted to share a story in relation to this. I, quite a few years ago, I was a sous chef at a very reputable restaurant in Australia and I was on a trajectory to become its head chef and this all happened the same time I found out I was going to have a kid. And essentially, I made a decision that these unrelenting hours weren't gonna allow me to have a family that would survive. And I wasn't in a position like someone like you, Matt, who owns the place and can make a decision to step out and give someone control. I had no control over the matter. So a week after my son was born, I resigned from that position and I just kind of wanted to fill some people who are thinking about having a kid and grappling with that idea that my career couldn't have ended up better than where I am now. And it's a difficult decision to make, but if you talk to the right people and get the support you need, seriously, I've never looked back and it still can work out okay. So yeah, that's it. What do you do now, sorry? I'm a chef still. I'm a head chef in a restaurant and it's a long story, but I couldn't be happier than the position I'm in right now and I've never been an introductory alman since making that decision. Yeah, that's it. So if we sort of look beyond the political level, we can't introduce Scandinavian socialists everywhere. Well, we can eventually. What is not without a struggle and a fight? It's terribly overhyped. I mean, how can we foster a better culture in the kitchen that will make people stay and commit to these careers? Listening, listening to your staff. I think that's the first step and there's so many things that this symposium is trying to address. So many issues and so many things everyone wants to talk about and there is a culture, there's a culture of hard work and commitment and work ethic in the kitchen and that is gonna be a hard culture to change. So if we are going to be in the kitchen or be in the dining room and work hard, I think what we need to address is the environment in which we're doing that and how do we make an environment that people wanna be there in and make an environment that caters to someone having a kid and I don't have that answer. I can barely figure it out for myself right now, but I'm looking for it and I'm having conversations for the last two days with this crew up here has really kind of opened my eyes to possibilities that I've never thought of before and I think it's about how do we share this with each other and how do we share our experiences to kind of gain knowledge, to make decisions and also not feel guilty about stuff you're doing. I think being on this panel and being a part of this conversation has so much to do with the community and being able to find that community where you feel that you can actually share some of these things because we were in the back talking in preparation for this and what came out of our talk in the back for me was that the three of us had a moment of wanting to shut our doors and you actually shut your doors of your restaurant when you knew you were gonna have a child and when you gave birth and that you came home with that baby and you're like, how can I do this? And I have been in Canada for five years and my son is three and when that happened for me, I felt so alone. I felt like I couldn't talk to anyone because I had to look a certain way. I had a good rest. We were a busy restaurant and I was in that position where I had a team. They looked to me for everything but I was so scared. I was so freaked out. I was so alone. I didn't know who to go to but I did then find that I could go to a community and I started to surround myself with people that were not necessarily in the industry but people that would just listen and finding people to talk to and that you trust that are gonna hear you and that you're gonna be able to do that for them if they need that support because it's a real testament of our strengths and our weaknesses as humans and then as now chefs and restaurateurs and artists and all the things that we do. And I think that it's, like you said, we're still just trying to figure it out. What I do a lot in the restaurant is that I rest the space for someone. So if they wanna take off for a year or two years, they're always welcome back. So letting them know that they're always welcome back to the position they had when they leave, I think it's a great way to letting people relax and being able to think like, well, I can get back to this job if I want to. And I think also if you have a partner, it's great to take turns. Both of you don't need to do the career at the same time. Letting your partner, your wife, or your husband to go for it like five, two, three years and then it's my turn. So that's how we've been balancing it a lot. On that note of inspiration, I would like you all to thank the panel for the talk. Thank you very much.