 Thank you to all the viewers and a big note of thank you to beyond the Law and Symposis Law Schooled Organisers of this webinar. As I said earlier that it is really a pleasure to share this platform maybe virtually and of course virtually with the experts in the field from whom I have learned and understood the insight and nuances of gender and law gender justice and mental health. In this session or the initial address I would like to make some points as to the current situation as regards domestic violence, then the constitutional provisions relating to gender, then the gender what is meant by gender bias, the international covert convention, treaties, a reference to them, the societal attitudes and what majors are already taken over to contain this pandemic of domestic violence and some majors which can still be taken over. Coming to the topic as we are all aware, presently we are living in a difficult and critical time. At one and same time we are facing several crisis, each one is unprecedented whether it is COVID-19 or it is an economic slowdown but both these crisis are visible for everyone to see and experience but then both these crisis have a gravitated one more crisis which may not be visible, which may not be experienced by everyone but for the woman and there may also be reluctance to acknowledge or accept its existence. But it is there and this is the crisis of domestic violence which is unprecedented again in a free way. What has happened is that in the wake of COVID-19 and our lives in the world have come to a really halt. Everybody has been locked in homes for the purpose of stay home and stay safe. But this motto is not holding true for women. Though they may stay home and actually are confined to home, they are no more safe. Conversely their stay at home is making them more vulnerable to violence. As it is women are never completely safe from violence. Their safety already precarious has become more precarious now. An invisible pandemic of domestic violence has invaded their lives. Failed by the COVID-19, the ensuing lockdown and social distancing norms. This problem of domestic violence as we all know has increased gravely and that is at global levels. In my opinion the irony is that this is a time when we are marking the 25th anniversary of the landmark Beijing Declaration and the platform for action on women's rights and gender equality. Which was in 1995 and it has acknowledged that domestic violence is undoubtedly a human rights issue. And recommended the state parties to protect women against violence of any kind. Especially that occurring within the family. As a matter of fact domestic violence is not a new phenomena. It is a reality that existed throughout all the ages and through all the societies. Violence is a fact of a woman's life. Her condition as the often seen is defined by the violence she faces. Be that violence in her own home or at the workplace or anywhere else. Be it from strangers or intimate partners. Be it sexual or be it physical domestic domestic emotional or in any other way. It be it in the public or in the so-called private domain. Be it by exclusion or by inclusion. But one fact is undisputed that it is widely prevalent in all the structures of society. In a way violence perpetrated on women whether it is sexual or domestic. Is as we all acknowledge just the manifestation of gender bias. The unequal social and power structure existing in all societies. Between men and women. However what is a matter of anguish for me personally. Is that this gender bias or unequal power structure. Existing our society despite our constitutional commitment to equality. Our constitution is transforming. Which is strongly committed to gender justice. It is a fundamental document of the bill of rights. The very preamble of the constitution reflects the ideals and aspirations of the people of India. And one of the primary ideal highlighted is the equality of status and equality of opportunity. It is irrespective of the age, class, gender or any other thing. We know the fundamental rights enshrined in article 14, 15, 16. Are the soul of the constitution and they assure the promise of gender equality. According to me the most important article is 53 of the constitution. Which gives a totally new dimension to the concept of equality. Recognizing and acknowledging the fact that for years together women have been different from enjoying their basic human rights of equality and development. It is therefore an endeavor to bring women at par with men. Most importantly in my view it is an acknowledgement of inequality in the status of women. We service men and recognizes the need for not only formal but substantive equality. As we all know in addition to fundamental rights we have got directive principles for state policing like article 39 A, D, 39 2. Directing state parties to minimize ethnic qualities in income and status of women. Most importantly from citizens point of view is article 51 C. From the chapter on fundamental duties. Which mandates citizens to renounce all the practices derogatory to the dignity of women. It is also a matter of fact that in pursuit of these constitutional promises and premises several legislations have been enacted to give women equal status and to make their lives free from violence. This concept of free violence free life for women has also gained support and momentum from international convention and treaties. The world confluence of human rights at Vienna held in 1993 has declared human rights of women as inalienable integral and indivisible part of human rights. Then came CEDA the convention for elimination of all sorts of discrimination against women. Which is a major milestone in the history of gender justice. It is a kind of Naginaka term. Directing the state parties to protect women against violence of any kind. Especially that the occurring within family. Important aspect is that it is recognizing gender violence as a discrimination against women. India has rectified this convention and in 1992 itself and therefore on Indian horizon this convention is found reflecting in the landmark decision of the Supreme Court in the case of Vishakha versus state of Rajasthan. AR 1997 Supreme Court 3011 which lays down various guidelines for prevention of sexual harassment of women at workplace. This judgment is of great importance because in the absence of or in the world of domestic law the Supreme Court has taken resort to the international convention and virtually made a law which was prevailing in the field till the recent act of 2013 prevention of sexual harassment of women at workplace was enacted by the legislature after 16 years from this judgment. This judgment recognizes that sexual harassment of women at workplace is a discrimination and affront to her right to life and dignity as enshrined in article 21 of the constitution. This convention of SIDA is also found defining echo in the enactment of the protection of women from domestic violence act 2005 which in its object and reason is consciously and expressly refers to this convention as from this convention only the support is a detail to enact the law. The enactment of PWDBA or protection of women from domestic violence act is a major milestone as regards this domestic violence. As to the enactment of this law we were recognizing cruelty to a woman as an offense in the section 498A of IPC but it was not providing women any civil rights as such and for the first time this act had gone for or recognized these rights and it is for preventing the occurrence of domestic violence in the society. The act provides various civil remedies so without leaving the house matrimonial home now she can avail these remedies that is innovative, comprehensive and dynamic in many ways because for the first time it has broadened the concept of domestic violence to include within its ambits all kinds of abuses and harassment whether sexual, verbal, emotional, economy section three of that is very widely in its import. Act also recognizes women's right of residence in her matrimonial home and until then we don't have the concept of matrimonial property we were not recognizing that right as a statutory or even judicial. Now for the first time that has recognized otherwise what used to happen and still happens is the woman domestic violence or a marital discord takes place it is the woman or the wife who has to leave her house or she is to leave the house now the act has granted her right of residence in the shared household and it is a respective of her right of ownership or the ownership of her husband or any other person this act therefore recognizes her right to secured housing and which is very important having a roof over your head makes a lot of difference for the life of the woman because now she can at least claim to be safe though she may not be necessarily the act also enables her to get protection orders from the court to restrain her husband or the abuser from subjecting her to domestic violence and from entering in his own house again that is something you know act sometimes it has come in 2005 and even today we find that disorders when husband or his family members are restrained from entering in their own house something you know radical concept and that enables for I mean you know that is was very important right given to her in addition to a right to get monetary relays of maintenance compensation and even in time custody of children under one forum the appointment of protection officers and service providers is also ensured to assist her in getting these reliefs including medical, legal aid, provision for immediate shelter etc the radical nature of the act is also found reflected in the fact that it recognizes the rights of women in a relationship akin to marriage to get all these rights the point the reason why I'm highlighting all these legislation the constitutional promises their interpretation by the judiciary is that at least on paper every endeavor is meant to bring women and power with men and thereby to secure gender equality it may be true that there may be certain certain nuances in law where we still find some gaps in statutory law for example women are still not given any right in matrimonial property even in guardianship rights she is still not considered the natural guardian alone with her father or the succession rights where she lags far behind despite amendment to section six of the hindu succession act it may also be true that the various legal battle she has fought might not have given her the complete victory or might not have made her fully equal like a man but they made her realize that it is not a man's world alone as it was never meant to be but it is equally a woman's world as it is meant to be the world of both men and women having said everything I must again say the fact remains that our society is yet to not free from gender bias this gender bias may be certainly found reflected in our expectations from her in our stereotyping in our beliefs which turn into norms and then becomes our value system after all what the gender bias simply put it is a social construct and comprehends various roles behaviors activities and attributes that the society considers appropriate for men and women it has nothing to do with biological sex our main expectation from men and women are not seen as simon beaver deep aware has very beautifully placed in her book the second sex that one is not born a woman but become a woman it is in upbringing of a girl or a daughter that a woman is born it is in the expectations of the society that a woman is born this gender bias is therefore in our stereotyping our myths our expectations from her we may carry this bias as I said unconsciously even without our knowledge and it may be because of our social baggage it is found in our desire to have is it is found reflected in our desire to have a son in our preference for a male child which results in declining female sex ratio with each tensors after 10 years we suddenly become aware of the same and it happens despite the penal laws like the preconception and pre-nuntile diagnostic technique act it is found reflected in our marriage laws succession laws not making an illegal provision to decide how succession to a self acquired property can take place in the absence of her husband and children the gender bias surfaces in our religious rituals and practices when she is denied entry in the temples or dargas it is found reflected in our social customs like giving and taking of dowry dowry being accepted social custom we find very few convictions under the dowry prohibition act only when she succumbs to dowry tape the law takes precautions gender bias is there in denial of equal opportunity to her at workplaces whether it is permanent commission in army or navy it is in denial of equal pay well where continue work conditions or equal opportunities of career prospects she has to now go over support for it sexual harassment at workplace is still a dark secret of her life it took legislature as I said 16 years for enacting the law the incident of Nirbhaya Gangrave that occurred in Delhi 2012 for the me too movement proves that her life is still not free from sexual violence and now COVID-19 has made us again aware of the domestic violence and its gravity it proves that statistically woman is safer on the road at night also amidst the strangers then in her own home amidst her near and close ones as it is said home is where the maximum danger is the data collected by national commission for women shows that the total complaints of domestic violence received during the 60 days of lockdown period where 1.5 times more than the complaints received last year during the same period of March 2nd in the last year the number of complaints received where only 60 or 7 and now it is 1477 that is 1477 the study conducted by UNFPA has projected an additional 31 million cases of gender-based violence for a period of six months under lockdown it is said that the virus is killing more men than women and therefore in that way it is partial to women but then it is having extremely adverse consequences for women who are now trapped at home with their abusers at a time when support services are disrupted or are inaccessible the situation is also not limited to India alone but is prevalent all over the globe the UN General Secretary has to take no profit and has called for the measures to hydrate I hear a quote horrifying global surge in domestic violence and quote and has urged all the governments to make prevention and redress of violence against women a key part of their national response plan for COVID-19 while concluding I must say that addressing domestic violence has become an urgent issue not only for the government that it is a health issue and criminal act but also for the society as it is the societal attitude societal attitudes with justified domestic violence by both men and women I mean I wasn't so surprised when I come across the findings of the survey conducted by UNFPA International Center for Research on Women in 2017-18 which revealed that 52 percent of women reported that they had experienced some form of violence during their lifetime from husband or intimate partner and 60 percent I mean more 8 percent men said that they had acted violently against their while for partner at some point in their lives as per NCRB data also every 22 minutes one case of domestic violence takes place whereas according to the WHO report violence against women was just more than all the illnesses put together what was surprising for me is another survey of conducted by National Family Health in the year 2015-16 wherein 42 percent of the main surveyed believed that it is justified for a man to beat his wife for as trifle a reason as that she did not cook properly or refused to have sex or neglected her household chores sometimes the beating also without any reason and what was more surprisingly is that more than half of the women surveyed also justified beating by husband under circumstances so what is of importance for all of us is creating awareness and understanding both in men and also with women that violence cannot be an acceptable norm of behavior it must be impressed on everyone that no not even a single slap can be or needed to be tolerated there has to be a zero violence to such incident what can be done for that we have to make our women economically strong and independent and mentally strong because the root cause of violence is women's powerlessness in Kerala it is noticed that literacy rate being high and matriarchal form of family system women are having comparatively more independence and hence incidents of domestic violence are so least we are well so to break the silences and change the narrative yes we have to listen to her there must be avenues open to her to make a complaint and seek assistance we have to create a strong support system for her the network of service providers support services like shelters must be in place i here i would like to give an example of the state taken by France government it has financed the bookings of 20 000 books in hotels for the women seeking refugee from domestic violence it has also set up 12 tall books at groceries and pharmacies so that women can contact people for help away from home other countries like Argentina, Italy, Norway, Spain have adopted mask 19 wherein a woman can asking for the type of mask is a signal for the person to call help Spain and Portugal have also declared protection and assistance for victims of gender-based violence as essential service that can operate during lockdown in our country the government has launched the helpline instead of you has also provided what's the number the various high courts like Delhi, Jammu and Kashmir, Karnataka have also taken this given the directions and taken the states for providing safe security to women however what we have to recognize that the owners of staying space safe is not on women but on us as a society women must be able to take safety for granted just as main duty we have to recognize that women's women face violence because of deep social and cultural norms and values that endorse male supremacy and authority hence preventing women from being violated can be possible by addressing discriminatory practices and norms that lead to unequal treatment and women being denied basic rights we have to teach equality in home and live through daily life like charities must begin at our home the way we bring up our children the son and daughter the private spheres of life are the most powerful forces which can accelerate the process of gender equality because it can alter the ways in which women view themselves the issue of domestic violence or of sexual violence sexual harassment gender bias being a breach of human right and the violation of right to live with dignity it deserves utmost consideration I look forward here I conclude and really look forward to the views of Pope Analyst thank you ma'am I was just noting down the way you seamlessly were discussing without going through the any of the papers and the number of acts I was just jostling it down as to whether how many acts were you had written despite the fact that I was trying to write it down I found that you had written so many white spectrum of acts I thought that the only steno could have done it as how many acts you have done I noticed that you refer to IPC you refer to the sexual harassment act then the guardianship product domestic violence succession act legal aid then on different legal judgments which have far-reaching effect from Vishakh to then this the latest judgment where the ladies were given for a permanent mission where you spoke of that then there be a case me too moment to assimilate all those facts in the right way as we just said it shows the immense knowledge and what amount of hard work goes behind that entire webinar or wherever you speak it shows why people actually want to hear from your side you're obliged on that part before we we ask professor Shruti Karad to give the insights I will ask Dr Harish Shetty let's have the one minute let me come in here because we did not give a perspective in linking Harish to some of us who have been here as feminist activists as judges as lawyers and law teachers I thought you will give that call to me and then I will give the introduction no that's fine Dr Joshi will come in so let me link the themes first of all as the communication has come to all of you viewers and co-panelists we were focusing on the rights of the vulnerable now who are the vulnerable is the first question that you will ask vulnerable is not a term that is used in an ordinary sense when we contextualize it in law we look at it as the etymology of the word which comes from the word the oneness which means an open wound the gaping wound so in the societal context it's about vulnerability is about susceptibility to suffering or pain so if you look at certain segments of our society who are labeled as disadvantaged or in the constitution also this kind of term has been used the weaker sections so we can say that they come within the vulnerability but these are very socioeconomically determined by external criteria kind of segments when we talk about vulnerability I would go by Martha Feynman's extensive work and European human court of human rights talking about vulnerability in the case of Roma women or the linguistic minority or in case of people who have been unjustly incriminated in anti-terrorism law the vulnerability there is about one's susceptibility to be discriminated one's susceptibility to pain susceptibility to suffering legal profession as such has been the champion of the vulnerability if you look at the profession in Indian countries countries like India which are in the developing block of the world with a lot of socioeconomic inequality is still prevailing have reflected the idea of vulnerability in legislations as madam mentioned which are looking at legal aid or services special services special provisions in the constitution so from that point of view the idea of vulnerability needs to be looked deep into deep into the reality of the cases beyond these segments and legislations I will give you an example in the domestic violence case itself whenever you talk about domestic violence the the well-read the elite segments of the society say oh that all happens in the illiterate segments of the society that all happened it must be happening among the poor but if you look at the legislation and the way in which cases have come before the court and the pattern the vulnerability there is much deeper than socioeconomic segmentation it's much deeper than the gender alone so look at this case of a millionaire's wife who is given just 70 rupees a week of allowance for herself who with those 70 rupees if she's going to spend those 70 rupees husband will ask for all the details and then her phone is tapped she is not allowed to get out of the house unless somebody in the I mean some elder or somebody in the house permits so these kinds of situations will show that vulnerability is something to be seen much more than the physical dimension it is to be seen much more than the socioeconomic status for example I can become vulnerable even though I'm a very educated person who has got access to all the privileges in the society if I leave the borders of my country and become an alien in another country I could become vulnerable when suddenly I become a minority because of the provision of the law or because of a ruler who has got certain attitude towards certain groups and therefore legislations are discriminating ordinances are discriminating our rules are discriminating so today we have vulnerability getting more complex because of the pandemic so we have seen the cases of the migrant we have seen the cases of domestic violence as madam put it so I would suggest that our vulnerability series in which we are doing this first discussion on gender domestic violence and harassment at workplace is to be seen from the point of view of a biological biological determinism and a biological construct of that determinism in a social context resulting in discrimination resulting in pain and resulting in suffering so I would like to please before you the way in which the post of violence has been coming to the society and that hasn't been factored in for example Rajasthan state alone had a study conducted by a group of tata institutes sociologists and golver universities and legal researcher showing thousands of crores of laws because of the women remaining women remaining absent from work due to the after effect of domestic violence so this is a larger issue that needs to be discussed because domestic violence is not just the violation of the right or pain or suffering by that woman or a child or elderly member of the family alone it has a social cause it has a larger ramification for the humanity secondly I would like to highlight here that when we recognize the vulnerable section we look at the impairment in reasoning impairment in decision-making impairment in terms of making sense of the world so that is where we look at vulnerability from the psychological point of view from the mental health point of view so if someone is succumbing or someone is not raising a voice not reacting to domestic violence there must be some reason operating behind that mind there must be a dynamism by which that mind is operating that is where mental health issue comes in and that's where people like Dr. Shetty assume a lot of importance in this forum I would like to say that we when as activists I was taking up cases of these women the invariably we knew that despite our advice despite best of the legal support provided alternatives notives provided after assessing their cases women would go back to the situation so I did not get the answer why this was happening doesn't she have a self respect doesn't she have a dignity how can she be happy with the perpetrator who has been dain and day out beating her insulting her ridiculing her then I read an article by UN rapporteur round the cap along in this book on human rights of women an exclusive chapter on how domestic violence is similar to the violence that happens in the prison and how it becomes equivalent to prison so she raises three important dynamics of violence which happens at the hands of someone that you trust at the hands of someone with whom you enter into wows of intimate relationship and cohabitation and maybe like long union in the form of rituals sattapati etc so first point she raises is that the way in which the violence destroys the capacity to think the capacity to reason she compares it to the helplessness that is cultivated by an animal which is leashed so the animal would go to the leash next day without being beaten or without being shouted at secondly she also tells about how repressed emotions and the response to one results in sudden outbursts and that's how the the lady ends up killing her perpetrator so battered woman syndrome has been explained by her in a very very deeper way third aspect that she talks about is that this helplessness that the woman undergoes is not a natural helplessness it's a cultivated helplessness so how does this helplessness get cultivated is a dynamic that we would expect Dr. Shetty to reflect upon so overall the vulnerability in case of a trusted home home which would have been the safest place for the person becoming the most dreaded place becoming a place where human rights have been constantly violated is a dynamic that needs to be seen the second dimension that i would like to add here is that that when these women were advised to go to council or to a psychiatrist their file was not called as file on violence or file on 498 or file on case of torture that file used to be called as yellow file by psychologists file on stress so these two imputed to the stress that is cultivated in the relationship due to one's own limitation or due to the dynamic between the two two people and also some external factors like in laws socio-economic factors etc so this is where the the law needs to factor in psychology and psychiatry and there's psychiatry needs to factor in the dimension of dignity and human rights i always saw a kind of diversion between the two unless the judges were or lawyers were enlightened or activists were enlightened in the psychological dynamic or the psychiatrists or psychological counselors were very much aware of the dignity and the rights that were available to these women the way in which the communication and the language was used in these cases made a lot of difference in the outcome of the case so breaking the cycle of violence making the perpetrator to realize that what that person is doing is not right and the kind of impact it is creating on the survivor or the victim and the way in which this pathology of violence escalates as the time goes and the shrinking cycle i mean they they have a language called flower and shower state where the perpetrator would abuse and then he would say look what you made me to do and then he would bring a garland of flower in Indian context garland of flower or a box of sweets and then he would buy the victim so that next time the violence is going to be more intense so this is called a the cycle of flower and shower and in domestic violence the the the longer the person stays in that relationship how this stage gets longer and i mean frequent and frequent is something that is to be understood by all of us another thing that ronda talks about in her article is about the myths in domestic violence and the reality first myth as madam said is the myth that if this woman is staying in this relationship then she loves to be beaten is that true nobody likes to be beaten it's just that she believes that the person will transform or she believes that what is she doing must be causing this person to believe that way she feels responsible for his behavior and the reality is that they have beaten for silly reasons like the meal was called or that the child was crying you know so who is responsible for whose behavior is the reality that needs to be asked second myth there are many other myths second myth is that if you leave this spouse then you become often others will make fun of you there's a stigma against a woman who lives single with little children children will become more vulnerable to other predators so these kinds of thought processes operate behind the mind of the women but then the reality is that that children when they watch their parents fighting or one of the parents being insulted and beaten anyway gets psychologically better which dr. shetty might highlight better so in these cases the reality is that the woman is not independent or she doesn't have the awareness or she doesn't have the support necessary support from the family or the society we've seen that in the vimocana public trial way back in 1999 large percentage of families who came and shed tears in the public trial said that we had the signs but we did not heed those signs we sent the girl back to her house saying that somehow adjust it will all be all right only to realize that either she committed suicide or she was burned to death so this is how escalation of violence is some phenomenon that needs to be viewed seriously the reality is that those who engage in violence are having certain type of mindset they have deep values which are not at all healthy as madam shalini highlighted certain strong stereotypes operating in their mind that if it is why she needs to serve me she needs to listen to me she needs to do what i ask her to say and if she violates she needs to be punished so these kinds of mindsets and patriarchal values seem to be operating in the minds of these persons and then when they undergo proper mental health orientation that have been changed this i do not know the percentage should come from dr shetty so our question in this case is what are the strategies what is the kind of discretion that women need to use how long can violent relationship prevail i mean we have a provision in the dowry prohibition act within seven years of marriage what kind of a scientific basis is there that beyond seven years of marriage there is no harassment related to dowry you know which study has been taken in this or which scientific basis on the human behavior has been relied on is a wonder that i always had when i looked around and had seen cases where perpetually the demand is there another point i would like to take is the workplace harassment aspect which madam has highlighted between the vishakha case of 1997 and the meda lele case in 2012 there was barely any implementation of the guidelines of the judgment hence the meda lele case brought before the supreme court highlighted the need for a legislation so in 2013 december the legislation was passed by 2014 it was to be implemented it did not get implemented in the way it was expected in punay we had a forum under the ci i where the way at havan was involved in highlighting and creating awareness to various segments of industry and we realized that the implementation was far from reality today we realized that in workplace harassment also the stereotypes operate now these stereotypes are the stereotypes that women are constant absentees women are not very motivated they don't make great leaders why should i take orders from a woman leader so with the leadership and modeling of gender within the organization doesn't exist workplace harassment connects to that second is wherever harrassers have used their power position to take undue advantage these harrassers have been made to leave the organization have been made to undergo inquiry but then they go elsewhere they get recruited promptly without any kind of undertaking or background check and they repeat the process i do not want to mention the name in one of the very very famous organizations this person left the organization went back to another organization and repeated the behavior so whether the behavioral dimension in case of workplace harassment has been factored into recruitment is an issue that needs to be seen from the larger angle of governance and management the other aspect that i would like to highlight in workplace harassment as well as domestic violence is domestic violence is affecting life itself workplace harassment is affecting right to livelihood so both are finally connected to the sacrosanct supreme article 21 which relates to life life with dignity livelihood survival so these both issues need to be taken very very seriously and the vulnerability of one segment of the society to the violation of this right needs to be viewed from the legal angle from the mental health angle from the policy angle and socio-economic reforms i would like to highlight here also that we have had a situation in workplace harassment which is a very unique situation which scholar debora rod of stanford university has highlighted this situation is what we call a subtle sexism very woman who doesn't fit into the normal stereotype of a beautiful woman nice woman might also get targeted or a woman who gains weight during the course of the job which happens you know because hormones act maternity acts on the body them being fired in a very indirect way by by being told that oh you you you are not that present table therefore you better be shifted to the backhand office these things happen in a very subtle way another is where maternity becomes a kind of invisible glass ceiling in some organizations for your growth and development of women these kinds of harassment have not been captured because the word sexual is mainly captured in terms of bodily oriented comments so the word sexual there in terms of settles subtle sexism and sexism as a mindset resulting in certain behaviors needs to be incorporated into the vocabulary of the law another point i would like to highlight both in domestic violence and sexual harassment law is that that gender is not biological alone as madam said it's a biological so we have had cases of gay people being the fired out of job because they look like an aesthetic slur this hasn't been recorded in the inquiry or in the documentation but there is a bias against this that has been a bias so now with the various legislations etc i mean this month is also the pride month you know so for me it is a very important dimension so we have we have a long way to go because there is a UNDP report which says that when it is gender-based discrimination or gender-based violence the male cognate in the relationship whether it is heterosexual relationship or homosexual relationship ends up becoming a perpetrator on the female cognate the male female cognate need not be necessarily biological because these are masculinity and femininity which have been associated with certain traits and certain behaviors which have been repeated in recasting the society by our discursive practices by the media and by the dominant values in the society something which is connected as male male equivalent or masculine is considered as a value it is worshiped with something which is considered as female is considered as something to be dominated the dominant is the male and the dominated is the female so these cognates operate therefore that UNDP report also highlights that even in heterosexual relationship man-woman relationship five percent of the relations that show woman being the perpetrator so these are the kinds of these are the kinds of thought processes that we need to challenge so i would like the house to discuss these issues in case of covid these disparities and these circumstances became more highlighted due to the pandemic situation lockdown resulted in a situation where the perpetrator is watching the perpetrator so the perpetrator was not able to pick the phone and call jaggery this non-governmental organization recognizes or records that the number of phone calls came down during covid on their health plan that means that it doesn't mean that during covid violence came down the field work of our team in pune highlights that on an average daily two to three cases were coming to the police station and the police station the police were really trying to battle the situation of covid patrolling so these cases could not be given the attention finally the seriousness resulted in a committee a committee which had a healthcare worker as well as the police whereby they came out with some ad hoc measures one of the ad hoc measures was to isolate the perpetrator to engage with some work like cleaning a government office or having a kind of isolation in the government office so this shows that domestic violence needs to be or any form of violence needs to be seen not only as a as an issue of right and justice to battle with but the dimensions of healthcare especially mental health need to be incorporated into it whereas in case of physical wounds the physical health also needs to be incorporated into it so i'm throwing these perspectives open to the house and i would request the moderator to take over and steer the discussion thank you ma'am the insights which you have given the different aspects have been touched and i would ask dr harish shetty to oh no i would i would ask uh it is supposed to talk and i would want to listen to this learned reference space discussion then i'll come in if you don't mind uh side salt i can ask i will learn yes ma'am okay yeah i i mean i would really like to hear the participants and get their questions now because we i don't think we have a lot of time but i'll just make it about two or three points um as um both the distinguished uh panels before me have done an already comprehensive and insightful presentations so i'm going to sort of push back a little bit by saying that despite decades decades of law reform in the area of women's rights violence continues to happen violence continues to be a fact of life in the lives not just of women but also as director or board said in the in the fact in the lives of the vulnerable so we have to i believe we're at a point where we have to sit back a little bit and be rather reflective what has gone wrong why has it that so much law despite so much law reform more rights has not led to more equality or less violence and i think it's a very important question we have some good laws to domestic violence law was a fantastic piece of legislation i think it's amongst one of the best um uh but i'd also think uh let me just take one step back is that all legislation that we have needs to be informed by a rights discourse you know you can't just have a criminalization of conduct without rights being the the the non-negotiable all right so it and i think this came out so beautifully after the tragic and horrible uh 2012 gang rape and murder um in the protests that followed and i remember the placard saying we're not your mud you're we're not your wives this young men and women both you know so there's a whole new generation i think who's really very vocal and are the students that we many of us teach now uh who said we are not your wives we're not your mothers we're not your sisters we're citizens of india who are entitled to equal rights and i believe that that really was very powerful in telling us how you cannot keep on linking rights to one's role and status within a family because that notion of family is very narrow and very limited it's as dr uh group were actually mentioned you know it's heteronormative it's actually also monogamous it doesn't it excludes a whole spectrum of individuals and alternative family arrangements um and i think it's very sad coming back to the domestic violence act which i said was inclusive of so many categories uh it's the courts which actually narrowed the provisions and it's the courts that narrowed our definition of household shared household and it's also the courts that uh narrowed the definition of which women were entitled to protection so it created a hierarchy right and um i believe that the intention was to include all women all vulnerable groups within these shared households which was supposed to be very it was supposed to be an very expansive understanding of what constituted a shared household it would include single women it would include widows it would include divorced women it would include sex workers uh and it would include my sexual religious cast minority women uh so it seems to me it's it it got really very narrowed in the course of the judicial interventions it's a rare example of our judiciary actually narrowing women's rights as opposed to expanding it uh a second issue i think and so um them oh yes the other issue i wanted to mention is that there was this very progressive bit in the domestic violence legislation which actually links marital rape to civil rights and i think that's hugely important at the same time despite the 2012 protests and advocacy and all the proposals that came in marital rape continues to be exempted from the criminal law now in my and this is really in my analysis of the law had we only asked for the criminalization of marital rape and nothing else i think we would have achieved an enormous amount so all the other legislation that happened or law reform that happened most of it was actually cherry cherry picking because there were some really good proposals um even if we hadn't had that because remember all the four uh who were convicted were actually tried under the old law and they were convicted and they were sentenced and they were executed under the old law which basically meant the old law worked if you know excluding the death penalty part and so you wonder what was all this new law about if the one fundamental change could not have to be brought about which as i say is criminalization of marital rape the second problem i think and this is becoming more evident this is more evident in the sexual harassment interventions is that the core right that uh women and and and all these alternative communities have been demanding is a right to sexual autonomy and bodily integrity as informing every legal standard and not being negotiable once again unfortunately our overwhelming focus on sexual wrongs has actually been done at the cost of sexual rights and even gender rights the result is now we know a lot of sexual conduct is eliminated despite even if it's consensual including sexual speech you know sort of creating an environment in which we can have health conversations healthy conversations around sex and sexuality and gender is now in fact targeted speech under some of the ways in which the sexual harassment laws have been um have been interpreted so i'm wondering it's not the problem so much with the law it's the views about women and men and families and sexuality that inform the interpretation of these laws that have actually not necessarily proved to be uh liberating or emancipating i'm going to stop there because i think as i said it the the the the the legislation and the insights presented by our other distinguished panelists have already been very comprehensive thank you ma'am before we call upon Dr Harish Shethi we are 40 years enough and we are quite happy also that Justice Moshmi Bhattacharya from Calcutta High Court has joined i will uh we are unmuting her and you would ask ma'am to give the insights before we ask Dr Harish Shethi we have heard all sides we are too happy that she has joined us uh yes ma'am ma'am you will have to unmute yourself yes ma'am ma'am you have noise the mic has to be unmuted on the screen yes ma'am it has to be from her side ma'am unmute yourself can you hear me now yes ma'am yes uh i really uh uh sorry Dr Shethi i didn't want to come in oh no no yeah i'm lucky to hear you also very no no 40 years or or otherwise i didn't want to interrupt the session it was enjoying myself very much um uh because what i suggest is let Dr Shethi please address the session and after he's done then i'll just give one or two thoughts that's all okay ma'am it's fine it's fine thank you i uh a decade and a half back when i was conducting a session for judges at Jyoti judicial officers training institute i was tempted to ask the provocative question how many of you beat up your wives and and believe it or not they were they were quite quite a few one third or one fourth of them they put their hand and said and that opened my eyes completely and i've said that beliefs don't change by acts by laws beliefs which are very deep down take a long time to take in the corona period we were trying to convert we're trying to educate women who believe they were martyrs into managers i still remember this young teacher from my school where i run i said in the morning get up and give tasks to everybody and you do not you do not do everything inside the house after a week she came and said the doctor i tried but ultimately i i ended up being everything myself then i explored how did this happen this did not happen because others did not want to work but the deep rooted belief of martyrdom of i'm a good bahu i'm a good wife i'm a good daughter and i'm a good mother is so strong in the indian psyche education has not cleared an education to take a long time period when i look at all this i find i look at ncrb ncrb data the latest which was which is available as of now which uh madame panzarkar also quoted one out of five people end their life as we said are daily wage laborers and one out of six are housewives there's something which which should open our eyes one out of three causes for for ending one's life are family problems and family problems also include uh domestic violence there's an increased ratio of girls under 18 committing suicide more than boys so this is a big change in the last few years the number of girls ending their lives early is also on the rise now when i look at all this when i see people coming to me i see that those who do not complain about domestic violence most of them have childhood trauma many of them have seen violence among their own parents that's one of the most important reasons for learned helplessness a lot a lot many of them have had child sexual abuse and that is also one of the most correlates i would say not the cause of the correlates which has which has been responsible for for not not reporting violence and not fighting it out patriarch is something we all know one important factor which we use which we really use when we train young boys and girls all those girls who have poor self-worth about their bodies for whatever reason i mean simple words i still remember a family uh who's who's my friend's uh sister whenever i would go to their home when since last 25 years she would cook all the time and make make great food and great recipes for us after i took up psychiatry asked her why did you why do you do this what isn't that you get you said i feel nice when i feed everybody but in psychiatrists we don't accept all the sentences on face value we go we believe that behind the sentences are certain behavior and she said that my grandmother will always say me me karpu you are dark your brother is dead that was enough for her to break her entire ecosystem in the mind and she and she started abusing herself for helping others and that i think is also extremely important for us to understand all the women who have who have broken free from abuse i found three reasons one is financial independence remember financial independence is not about holding a job that's not financial independence financial independence is able to control your money and that is financial independence it's not about i have a job i have a bank balance no that bank balance is controlled by me and it's in my hands the second most important factor for women breaking free they support not from the family but from peers but from peers it is her friends her colleagues her schoolmates boys or girls who support her to resist the violence and take action and the last would would be support from the family when we look at all this the the journey from martyrdom to empowerment is too long it's not about education it's not about it's not about law it's about the collective unconscious here and to break that and to really really break that the efforts have to be multi-pronged but the efforts also have to be repairing the stories in her own mind and that is i think extremely important now when we look at when we also look at the entire phenomenon of violence while it's not about physical beating a lot of women come and tell me rubbish they said it's karma it is karma as a psychiatrist i also practice a lot of advocacy because i have lawyers i have many other friends to my refer and they take action but many women have shown me the mark and said it is my karma maybe in the past but i have violated him and in this but you'll not believe i'm not talking about uneducated women i'm talking about educated phd qualified women i think this entire business of karma is so is so is so wonky interpretant so differently i still remember this woman who was bitten by a doctor husband and because he was in love with with another doctor in his in his hospital and he left and she was taking therapy from my psychologist suddenly she felt she changed i said how did you change so far when i was very happy that my therapist has done a great job it was not bad she did some past life regression and some stupid past life regression therapist said this is also the whole lot of facts are doing different meaning to women when they're abusing this is also a big interest in respect to him lastly breaking the cycle of learned helplessness is very difficult learned helplessness is as ma'am was asking i am beaten up i feel i'm i'm unlucky i'm i'm not i'm i i i deserve and then i suddenly start accepting it as new normal as new normal and if if you're not beaten up you're very surprised so it's learn helplessness needs uh it's a long time to break because you have you have inculcated ingrained the fact that this is this is extremely normal now lastly so that i can hear honorable just in most of me but uh lastly violence was a part of belief but today violence is also part of angst angst very important globalization has not allowed up to us to sit quietly well globalization has disconnected us corona virus has reconnected our family in in a very strange way karna has told us you are not meeting your family please sit down and have food together but unfortunately the national women's commission said that they have increased number of calls of domestic violence after the lockdown so angst would mean violence which is which is new violence which is new it was not that earlier it is new it started approximately six months ago a year ago one needs to explore there is something wrong in the mind of the person who's violent it has been part of this nature or his belief it was different and there we find that a lot of men or women who get depressed are very agitated angry and violent me i will kill you or i will i'll kill myself and i better beat you up and unfortunately they meet the wrong lawyers and when they meet the the wrong lawyers the route which they should take with in terms of helping is not is not is not met and that is something we need to read very look at lastly i have what's up group of single men and single men who are fighting the laws fighting the kids in the family court when the man does not pay interim maintenance when the man resists giving away his rights the first thing a lawyer tells the woman is divi talk though and that is also a truism that's also a truism and the woman said i did not want to file the divi but the lawyer said the file the divi i will get the compensation i will get the interim maintenance so we need to look at this entire issue in a holistic manner we can't look it through an ideological prism we can't look it at through a prism of personal beliefs or personal faiths and ideologies we need to look at holistically we need to look at all aspects of the of the issue and every case of domestic violence may not be the same as the other and that is something that's very important so at the end i would say the route from martyredem temperament is long we can shorten it by working it on it in many creative ways thank you sorry honorable justice jessie mausamy i not at all not at all dr shetty it was a real pleasure hearing you i've actually heard you in one of the other talks of arranged by the maharashtra the judicial academy and let me take also the opportunity of thanking professor gurpur professor kappur and of course last but not the least justice joshi who i've briefly interacted with you in hopal i remember a very engaging session very interesting points raised and professor kappur it's actually quite significant that you made the point that it is actually one of the rare areas where the judiciary has restricted or narrowed down the some of the rights are conferred under the protection of women from domestic violence act 2005 in that context you know yesterday i was i i read a very recent judgment of the supreme court delivered sometime in april 2020 it's the the cost title is i think aishwarya uh let me give you the exact cost title aishwarya atul khusal versus maharashtra housing and the citation is 2020 scc online page 408 in that actually you know i found a very kind of significant observation not really the ratio there but by way of an orbiter that what is the concept of a matrimonial home and the matrimonial home issue was discussed against the concept of shared household under what is it's section 25 of the 2s sorry 2s of the 2005 act and later on also comes in again under section 17 what is a shared household and in that case the the wife who had been successful in a divorce proceedings claimed the part of the husband's flat in in deli shiva jipav deli which had been demolished and she claimed a part of that flat as her matrimonial home basing her claim on the common law rights on the rights given to her under the hindu law as wife and the court by way of orbiter said that you know the correct route is not through an article 226 repetition but you should you will have to go through the family court or you know you have to file a civil court to get that interest but made some very interesting observations on the right of a woman to have her matrimonial home protected to have a place of stay and the concept of shared household and also brought in the concept of economic abuse under section 34 34 of the 2005 act and said that in a line said that a wife cannot be dis-housed that's the coinage dis-housed from her from her matrimonial home during the pendency of proceedings now having said that the only reason why I mentioned this judgment is that contrary to some of the views which I came across in this session you know the 2005 act I find that whatever rights it confers on women who are undergoing you know the trauma the the proceedings as it were and I would look at sections 18 to 22 of the act section 18 of course gives the protection orders 19 for all all those of you who don't have the booking content of you 19 gives the residence orders 20 monetary reliefs 21 custody orders and 22 compensation orders um I get the feeling and you you know I would invite your insights on that that all these measures are kind of a discrepancy in the nature of dispensations while the proceedings are going on but not really in the nature of any kind of according final relief to the victim if I can use that word all these protective measures are to give that amount of security or comfort to a person while she or he is going undergoing the trauma or domestic violence but if we were to look beyond the act and look for a kind of a definitive closure to what that person is suffering I don't think the act really provides that subject to your views that's my observation number one number two is very briefly you know I I came across I think an article somewhere in the last couple of days that one of the incidents of this pandemic is an alarming um alarming trend of a duality quote unquote duality in domestic violence cases as in you know the men who are actually going out and helping people who are COVID affected are the ones who are beating up their wives at home or you know sons who are doing their neighborhood duties and feeding the hungry are keeping their mother hungry in the house this is really a duality which struck me it something which kind of escapes our eyes so that is the second issue I had and really this is just by way of an intervention comment in response to a very interesting and engaging session so I would really love to have your insights on that your response to that yes because thank you ma'am the fact that you just joined us and the way you presented the entire issues it's quite fascinating I will ask professor Shashi Kala that certain questions have already started coming on the chat box right so if we have the ma'am permits that we can start taking few questions anybody out of this platform before taking questions I would like to respond to one of the observations I mean both the observations by Justin Patataria was very very timely and very what you can call very pointed observations her idea of I mean from the article what she has picked the duality in Maharashtra also I mean in our field observation we had seen in Pune that these men who were otherwise going to work were confined at home for the first time for two months or three months at a go they would pester the woman to cook meals usually they would have the breakfast leave the home come back for dinner or they would carry a lunch or whatever so they would ask for repeated meals and this woman would be either a working woman who is confined at home or maybe a homemaker but then she was not used to doing this she also needed her own time for herself and this was least cared for so what we see in the root of this is the myth of service that she's there to serve like how my mother served she better serve me so expectation you know the whole expectation and the power game which is there we had come across a case in Rajasthan in our literature where the call had come to national women's commission helpline where the father of the girl had called on a condition of anonymity that the husband of the girl who is a teacher was not providing her proper meals I mean she was stopped similarly we had cases of in Maharashtra we had in the field we had cases of people trying to not to provide sanitizers not to provide because the woman is economically independent so finally it points to what Justice Shalini pointed out the unequal power relationship and the kind of lack of focus on women's development like you know Kerala has madam was mentioning about the Kerala example even Amartya Sen is a great fan of Kerala in terms of women's empowerment I come from the border area of Kerala we have a matrilineal culture where the woman heads the family and she takes claim to the family property what we see there is in Kerala is even the policy now is focusing on a concept for Kutumbashree where development is family centric and woman centric woman leads the development process unless such changes happen if you see the statistical analysis of domestic violence they are very closely bound up with the increase increasing numbers in states where female genocide is also high so finally they point out to the idea of lack of dignity or value to the life of women so this is something that needs to be seen madam in response to your very very astute observation thank you for enriching this discussion thank you very much so over to you ma'am one could be that since we have all you all five have discussed on different issues there are pointed observations and which are quite relevant we can take the movement forward because certain questions are invariably as to whether the acts are for so long in existence as to whether the discussions do actually lead forward there's one question on that aspect and we are always discussing about the relation of women in recent times especially with the panoramic and men are also views than what is your take if personally believing i believe that we have discussed the larger perspectives this issues amongst ourselves somebody takes a question and the other person can answer that will probably read this the issues in a right a way that that's my personal take professor shachikala can put the motion in the right sense because messages which are coming it's they are primarily on the basis that these acts are in existence for long we have been discussing these issues for long but how do we move forward so that's my personal take that let's assume dr shethi has his experience or just as shalini has her experience rakhna kapoor ma'am has his experience just as moshmi has her experience so a question can be poised bazaran the other could be redressed in the right perspective because we have on the platform men and women of immense knowledge so they are sharing of knowledge with a personal experience as a judge or as a while teaching in a faculty that i think will give a in a writer perspective we can ask professor dr shethi who takes things slightly in a forward manner we are asking her to unmute her so that she puts the things because she was the one the pioneer in large issues which we are today seeing the nation moving forward ma'am could you just unmute yourself yes so the so the question here is about that gender neutral protection of law against a need to protect women i mean there's audience have been highlighting that point can we make both these laws gender neutral if we make it gender neutral what are the consequences i mean i would be very cautious but i don't know what rakhna thinks so rakhna please ma'am rakhna ma'am try to unmute yourself rakhna kapoor ma'am you will have to go to your screen go to that microphone icon at the moment yes yeah i mean there's a entire platform what happens is we have we only allow someone to be unmuted so once you mute yourself again the entire process has to be a reader yes because like we said i'm coughing i don't want to anyway let me just get to the points here i don't think i think we have to take a step away from the legislation and i think most judges have talked about this a little bit as well as i said we got to go back to fundamentals which is about rights you see it's no use having gender neutral legislation if those who are impacted don't have rights in the first place all right so if you're talking about say uh uh couples in in um interreligious relationships that are non-marital or um that are non-heterosexual or you have to first of all ensure they have rights to live together to have consensual relationships in the first place that that means fundamentally ensuring the protection of the right to to sexual autonomy and and one's bodily integrity that is simply fundamental and i think every law needs to be evaluated against that and if we don't do that we're just going to have a lot of legislation that continues to be interpreted according to a very sexist homophobic and um a culture that's actually have a very narrow understanding of which relationships are legitimate and which women are entitled to rights in other words which women are redressed as fully formed human subjects and those who are not and therefore not entitled to rights okay so i think it has to go back to something really quite fundamental that uh we have to address first of all those who are not entitled to exist as human beings in the first place and therefore not entitled to the protection of this legislation and secondly if you have gender neutral legislation it can be used to target those very people whose full subjectivity has not been recognized in law right and so i think that's really important i'll give a sex worker as an example or those who live in in non-marital relationships for example they'll be the very prime targets of gender neutral legislation so you can't have gender neutral legislation that deals with the wrongs before you have legislation or cases and a judiciary that supports everyone's rights and that's not set up this higher fp and i think that is something that judges as well as the legislature need to be more conscious of even those who are members of progressive groups right we have to interrogate our own views and positions as well we we can be deeply sexist and deeply homophobic and deeply sort of you know sort of anti minority in our positions without realizing it's become part of so-called common sense okay so i think that's that is absolutely vital as well i think there's not been enough also addressed on the kind of masculine cultures we are we are promoting in our society uh india is supposed to be a country that has arrived we want to be on the security council we want to be in human rights bodies we want to be you know in the wto we want to be everywhere to show that we've arrived but we really haven't we also have a toxic toxic form of masculinity that we cultivate in our homes on our streets in our in our workplaces that needs to be addressed and men need to be part of that need to be not just saying for example if you're on any panel let me just give you a very small example if you're on a panel that's not to do with gender and it's only men speaking men have an obligation on that panel to say why are we all just men here right it shouldn't be for women it's not it's not the job of women and others or those who are part of human rights advocacy to point us out it should become part of come a natural thing you should feel uncomfortable that there are not more there's not more diversity on a panel okay and that is true of our courts as well let's look at the supreme court let's look at how many women have actually come being at the high court level I'm sure I greatly respect the judges who are present here today because it must have been a huge struggle to be where you are it really must have been but it's also something that we need to really really seriously address it's a problem in the 21st century that we just continue to hold India at least in its face as a male country where women in a public space or in public positions are an exception that's really problematic okay stop that thank you ma'am ma'am since I I believe that Shalini ma'am had said the entire session into motion her insights because she has heard the different panelists on a different way so the insights thereafter as they say back to square one so I will ask not on the aspects that back to square one that we have not discussed anything in the right perspective back to square one only on the aspect that from where we started we will ask Shalini ma'am to just give the her a take on this or she can ask someone thank you thank you so much what I feel is that when we are considering the gender bias the domestic violence and also the I mean vulnerabilities it is not only the women who are vulnerable sometimes children are also vulnerable that aspect also we have to consider we have also to consider as we have done that I mean some questions were also raised why we don't have the laws protecting men also just as we are having the laws to protect women but then the question is of men is yet not enough just as a respect of women has become a norm or domestic violence cases are coming from women only so from that angle it was really I mean enlightening to take the perspective of professor Ratna Kapoor also because she has been instrumental and since long she is working in this field she has some I mean justified or maybe rightful reservations as to how the act has been interpreted especially DV Act or other act and how we have to look forward to bring a diversified view however the legal profession as such judiciary as such maybe male dominated now we are finding work for women in this field and they are making their voice heard I mean sometimes you know their perspectives are making the change like we have seen the Vishapa judgment it was justice Sujata Manohar we were the member of that bench and her for inputs her contribution has made the change we are having really I mean Lema Visijan we are having the judgment of justice Ranjana Desai in Vignesh Arnabekar where she has said that I mean giving a slap it cannot be a norm or it cannot be a norm at all and we have such observations coming from anywhere whether it's an advocate or a judge they are to be deprecated so it is not that you are having only the judgments of judiciary which are taking the may not be that broadened view but somewhere I mean it is the judiciary which has broadened that concept which has brought in the concept of gender justice there are several series of judgments from the Air India versus Nargesh Mirza or so many other judgments up to date I mean the just last judgment of Sabri Mala take it or it may be of the judgment of entry of women in or getting their permanent commission in R.E. or Navy so we are judiciary is making its contribution in making the laws more gender proactive one may say that I mean so it is a contribution but as she has rightly said having the well-placed legislation is also not sufficient its implementation is also of importance and domestic violence that we have found that implementation is conspicuously lacking but because the support systems which are created under the act may be protection officer may be that of service providers I mean those systems are yet to not in place at various places I mean unless we are having the systems in place whether shelters one stop same crisis centers we can't merely having a good police piece of legislation will not serve the purpose so everyone has to act together whether it is legal profession judiciary whether legislation and ultimately we have to take to this view it is not a pure legal issue and therefore it being a socially legal issue we have to take a holistic view of the matter we have to see how the woman can be more in power more strengthened how we change our belief systems how we make them aware how we make them I mean build up equip themselves so these are all the issues which are one to be considered both in our lives a day-to-day lives in our home and also in our schools I mean still now we don't have the course on gender justice in our schools we are not teaching our students as to how to respect a woman and which are her various roles it is not only her role is not only to cook and be at home her role in point something different also so all these issues I think we have to consider together and I am at justice as Dr. Hari Shetty has rightly said that why women still continue to remain in the abusive relationship that is also an issue and to that angle also we have to rely to be how to as a judge or as a legal profession or as a policymaker we have to consider that aspect so seriously so it was a really and I mean you know very interactive and good session where a lot of learning was there and I find it was I mean from my point also at least it was a very interesting and exciting exchange of ideas over to thank you ma'am we will again unmute Ratna ma'am then we will ask Dr. Shetty to give the insights because what has been come down during this says it's audible Dr. Shetty yes okay you said I thought that you're saying that it's not audible sometimes the headphones does create that feeling that one is not audible because one touches the headphones that gives the feeling as the discussion has been dealt during all this around one hour 45 minutes one doesn't realize how the time has actually flown but yes that there are legislations there were legislation and legislations are coming in tune with the time but they always say that it's very very difficult actually the legislation to catch up because what you catch up as the time has paced up so fast the legislation also sometimes are not able to meet and as we have two judges amongst us amongst the panel we there are judgments which says that the court does not have the power to legislate but again the judgment of Vishakha and the Aravali Aravali judgment says you don't you can't legislate but Vishakha is a judgment where guidelines are laid down and ultimately culminates into an act of I will ask Dr. Shetty now he is on a platform where we have it's a rare platform where we have judges we have academicians we have a psychiatrist who is well known in his in his own way so again before formal vote of thanks I will again just thank professor Shetty Kala who has been able to bring all those people on a common platform to discuss an issue which is not only relevant during the COVID-19 but beyond Dr. Shetty what are your insights we have heard you but eventually you have also heard before and after you were the like we say in this uh scales of justice centrifugal point you have heard from both sides before and after during the session what is your take there are a lot of people here who have who have had the skills across sectors I would like to ask you one question in very in short in short if if it could enlighten me and and and that is out of the of the years of experience in academics all of them are academicians also and in your experience in teaching academic and experience of life what is that one thing which we need to implement to accelerate the process of reasonable gender neutrality reasonable empowerment of that's one one most important anybody can Dr. Shetty I would say not anybody we will ask you tell professor Shetty Kala would choose that who will answer that no no it's okay everybody is free to I'm saying everybody it's a what is the one thing what is the one thing that needs to change or what we need to do one one one intervention we can accelerate the process of bridging the gap between martyrdom to empowerment change of mindset one intervention according to me it should be the bringing the way we bring up bring bring our issues I mean children children so home home environment and children you know learn by observing by imitating so we have to do our own conduct and we have to improve their bringing well according to me can can you hear me yeah yeah ma'am it's fine according to me Dr. Shetty I think it's a matter of choice the the right to make a choice I think that is the one which according to me would be the differentiator the right to choose professor Ratna ma'am you will have to unmute yourself time and again I'm just trying that you have to go to your screen and at the bottom you will have to click on the yeah done no I would just support all of those you know which gives me three answers yeah that's a rich yeah and I and I feel that children are the are the most important area where intervention has to happen what they see in the school what they see in the family these are the places where the the mindsets as ma'am said can happen but that it's very difficult because the schools are also ruled by by patriarchal segment and that I think is the biggest challenge what I feel is if masculinity can be equated with the Rehman which is affection I mean if you are if we start respecting a man who is I mean if the very value of masculinity and femininity are inclusive of both we should call Ardhanar Ishwar concept but the Ishwar need not be on the right always Ishwar can be on the left and Nari could be on the right I mean that's my interpretation of novel Ardhanar Ishwar so androgynous kind of self-concept you know where the best of best of both the biological determinism could be utilized and can be shown as complementary and removing the value attributed to aggression if communication and man-woman relationship or homosexual any any relationship in intimate partners is valued by the softness that they share than the aggression what a what is civilization for civilization is a movement forward from savagery to refinement and we don't seem to see that even in a mode of punishment when we do away with the death punishment it is seen as highest civilizational protection of rights because we have as Poco says we are averse to that public expression of violence you know so when a society moves forward when civilization moves forward it will attribute negative value to violence unfortunately we seem to harbor the very value to violence in all our popular representations unless we teach that kind of critical literacy I feel that critical thinking is also very important I also saw that the litigation strategies by lawyers for example I mean I was referred a case in our community legal care of a girl who had brought money from her parents home and enabled the husband to purchase a property and then when the property was sold there was no communication to the girl was done and then the husband disappeared from Pune itself so litigation strategy was I differ with Dr. Shetty that no lawyer simply gives a free advice because that's a strategy so the lawyer said you file a case on the domestic violence although they never had any episode of any form of violence she had to help the lawyer to formulate the document then she withdrew the case she said I've lost the money it's okay I don't want to fight the case again you call this martyrdom or you call it as giving up or somebody who is depressed psychological interpretation is one choice as madam said the choice by the person to make good the losses and other litigation strategies and other so all three are moving in different direction so do we put the person with the right sin center and do we focus that person and do we follow the choices that that person has and the ultimate question when it comes to choice is it her choice is it is it her choice is she in the right frame of mind to make those choices I would again cite what Catherine McKinnon said to Carol Gilligan is it when his foot is on her throat are her words her words you know so this this kind of dilemma always exists in situation so the very idea of choice needs to be viewed critically that's my submission and you know if I can just add from where Professor Gurpur and before that the justice Joshi you know I read today morning in fact some very recent statistics data that out of 12,000 children who were taken on for some kind of a study 5.96 percent were found to have been sexually assaulted and out of that segment again 54.4 percent were male children who had been sexually assaulted and out of that 37.82 were of the 15 to 18 age bracket and 36.5 three were from the 5 to 12 years age bracket so you know as Justice Joshi said that you know it's really sometimes not only about women and men or girl child and and you know boy it's about the you know the the generic the enveloping evils of violence and that can kind of you know affect any gender it's actually becomes gender neutral at one point. Ma'am the point well taken and once you have sometimes one panelist like we had on one of the sessions just as Moshmi Bhattacharya giving insights nothing stops and then on injunction and once and that session went on and today we have five panelists everyone in their own sphere having its immense knowledge so the time as they say time is like a ticking bomb it continues to take on and sometimes despite the fact that your heart doesn't agree that the session should be brought to an end but as they say that all good things have to come to an end but fortuitously enough and the persons who are participating as well as the panelist tomorrow we have another this move forward with some bosses law school spoon itself with again professor Shajikala Gurtpur putting the ball into the motion in the right perspective with these sessions itself tomorrow we will be having a session on mental health law and disability law again amongst us would be the two panelists professor Shajikala Gurtpur and Dr Harish Shethi would be joining along with Samindra Satwant and Advocate Vishwesh but the question is that once the knowledge cycle they say it's just like a in a snowball motion that once you start breaking off the snowball continues to move and once the thought process is of a good action it is very difficult to control but thankfully we have that control of the button where we can at least end and we have to move forward we have certain inputs which everyone will have within their minds and as they say that it's just the triggering point and sometimes the healthy discussions do help us to legislate the law help us to move forward help us to think in a right perspective I could have done the vote of thanks but I still feel that the entire platform etc was only because of professor Shajikala Gurtpur it would be unfair on my part I have said vote of thanks so BAM is saying no but I feel that the entire Honours belongs to her so it would be I will ask her since it's a collaborative action on our part to proceed in the right perspective a short wrap up note of thanks on behalf of beyond lawyer CLC and symbolic law schools over to you ma'am. Thank you because I should thank you for giving us the platform and tolerating my what you call as you know I was being very directional in talking to you you call them you follow this one we teachers do that all the time you know so thank you for tolerating that first of all and secondly for us it is the mission this kind of outreach as a law school but taking that initiative as a young lawyer and bringing so many people together you have played a key role thank you for that on behalf of all of us at Simba also law school Pune and faculty of law at the international university I thank our esteemed panelists and also just if Moshmi for joining us although you came to know about it and then you volunteered to come and you enriched our discussion each one of you Dr. Shetty you gave a new insight and I'm sure that it would have answered all the gaps that we have in law in a different humanistic way with the caring profession that you represent Dr. Josie for muting the discussion in a very very informative well researched initial note Professor Ratna Kapoor for those very sharp and very progressive very all-encompassing remarks which come from your rich experience in the law reform in this country bringing the global futuristic angles to the law I have some of the senior colleagues there among the audience especially Professor Lakshmi Jambolkar one of the renowned names in international law senior teachers of the country many other senior teachers I can see Shini Vasulu I can see there Bailey and all my dear colleagues from SLS who have joined here Dr. Singh Professor Manika the rest of you the students the fraternity a legal fraternity from all over the country the young people who have been giving the burning questions so I said when I was trying to respond to what Justice Bhattacharya said that we put vulnerability in the center because vulnerability is the susceptibility to harm or pain or suffering so tomorrow's discussion is on another form of vulnerability which is mental health and the other case which is connected and this jumped as well the case of disability then the third in the series we are planning next week on children so this is how we want to focus on vulnerability as an issue because the vulnerability seem to be forgotten somewhere when we are more interested in making this country becoming the secretary council member or becoming one of the leading countries in terms of GDP against all the challenges that we are facing we have forgotten the vulnerability so I thought that this is one way of motivating our legal fraternity because in any country when the revolution happened the thought came from the legal fraternity they wrote the constitution they wrote the philosophy for the constitution so we I always say we have to reinvent for the vulnerable who are comprising of almost 80% of our population so let's hail up us tomorrow with the new block of the vulnerable in the focus of our discussion and happy yoga day for all of you I reiterate on behalf of one of the audiences who had also raised a very sensible question the last sentence I would like to say is that that somebody said financial independence is not just having a job but controlling the monetary aspect wonderful insight and there are a few others who have talked about the underpinnings of patriarchy in the cases yes lawyers and judges and the witnesses are no exception to it so also the councillors and family court sometimes represent that we had raised the grievance once to Bombay High Court so with that I can call of you for a wonderful participation audience we are indebted to you in this thank you ma'am though I'd ask you to propose the final vote of thanks but as they say that for a lawyer it says it's a brief but sometimes it runs into a hundred pages so even though once I said that you will propose the vote of thanks but while you said three things just came into my mind like you said that you played the I will say that during this lockdown we played the key role to unlock the minds of the best of the brains of not only of India and Pan India number two bringing of yours on the panel these panelists and the persons who are participating of immense knowledge shows that you have that magnetic risma to draw everything magnet only draws the iron but you are drawing the best of the brains towards your platform that shows volume the way you can attract the people and number three you said that as a teacher you were guiding me that you should do like this and the panel should move ahead I am lucky enough that a club we had to have training through I what I tell my staff that it's through a correspondence course but to have a guidance from a teacher of a teacher like you I'm saying I'm blessed like more like Arjun and a club we are to be guided where to move forward during these testing times thank you everyone stay safe stay blessed tomorrow 5 p.m. we will connect everyone thank you thank you very much thank you so much