 This episode of Skepticoke, a show about UFOs and nukes And who's talking and who isn't Steve Longgero, this airman I did the next cognitive interview with He'd been inside the nuclear weapons storage area When he'd seen a UFO shine a beam down into the nuclear bunkers And it did like a grid-like search all the way down the hot road When the UFO turned its beam off and then went out It headed towards Reynolds and Forrest And he could hear people over the radio following it And as soon as it went in the forest Then people, there was like an order Given that we want as many security police into the forest Because we don't know what we're dealing with Now one incredibly important little piece of information That has huge implications Is during the course of my research I spoke to three US Air Force security policemen Who said that all of the main radio channels That the US Air Force security police used They were you routinely recorded on audio tech Now that means there is no ambiguity there There was all the evidence for all the nights We wouldn't have to start piecing it together But nobody talks about that Colonel Holt certainly never talks about that Colonel Williams certainly never talks about that But 3M and lower ranks have said It was routinely recorded So where did all that information go? That first clip was from the movie Skyline And I don't know if they were trying to be campy or not But when the Air Force shoots a nuclear missile into the UFO And the guy says take cover under the couch I thought that was a pretty fun way to lead into This whole topic of what information we're getting And the disinformation, misinformation Shaping of information Which in a lot of ways is the segue into today's interview Because the second clip you heard was from Gary Heseltine, UFO researcher Extraordinary expert on the Rendlesham Forest UFO incident and former UK cop So this is rich, rich, rich with information For people who are familiar with this case And highly relevant to just everything Everything, everything that's going on And everything that's bigger than just what's going on right now It's very important research, very important book And I hope you enjoy the interview Welcome to Skeptico where we explore consciousness, science and spirituality Today we welcome Gary Heseltine to Skeptico Gary has just published what I think is a super important book The book is titled Non-Human, the Rendlesham Forest UFO Incidents That's Incidents with an S Gary is a gosh, just a very, very top-notch UFO researcher Long-time detective in the police force in the UK And really highly regarded in the UFO community for a long time As one of the leading experts on of course the Rendlesham Forest case Which this book is about But I guess let's just start with Gary Welcome, thanks for being here You're welcome, thank you for inviting me I want to get back to why I think this book is so important And I really want to make that the focus of this interview That kind of takes it in a slightly different direction Because you do have this extensive, extensive background Why don't you start by telling people a little bit about your pre-UFO days Which I guess would be back a long time Because you really had an encounter for a long time But then you were kind of undercover for a while And then you've been doing this kind of right out front Disclosure project, Washington DC press club You were one of the people Linda Moltenhall, you know, you've been on the front lines of this But before all that, back to being a cop As we call it here in the United States Okay, between 1983 and 1989 I served in the Royal Air Force as a police officer And for three of my six years I guarded two nuclear weapons storage areas That had tactical nuclear weapons And therefore I have an affinity With the US Air Force security police Who were involved in the Reynolds and Forrest case Because I basically did exactly the same job In 1989 I left the REF to join the British Transport Police Where I went on to have a 24 year career The last 19 years as a detective constable Not a high rank, I didn't want high rank I didn't like the bureaucracy I liked to be out there, interviewing was my thing I became an advanced interviewer of suspects and witnesses I was also involved as a specialist interviewer In the London bombings of 2005 The four terrorist bombings I was involved in Investigating three of the underground scenes First responding transport police officers that went to the scene So that was incredibly interesting Hey Gary, let me, you know, I picked up a little tidbit Listening to one of the interviews that I thought was just fascinating So one that, you know, you didn't want to make the move Because you felt you were very good at your job And I also get the sense that you felt your job was very important I get the sense that you are kind of a high responsibility person You take public safety responsible Protect and serve I think is kind of in your blood I get the sense And then with this regard Interrogation or interviewing I thought it was fascinating I prefer the term interviewing rather than interrogation That's an entirely different thing And I'm not trained to interrogate Although you did get some solicitors saying It was like an interrogation When you had people on the ropes as it were And they were giving admissions So yes, my specialist thing was interviewing I like the psychology of this You talk, I talk and trying to figure it out So that was really my specialist thing I didn't want to go higher because the higher you went Effectively meant that you weren't a police officer anymore You became an administrative manager And you were stuck behind a computer And you actually never did or rarely ever did police work again So the advanced interviewing that I did Was effectively from a demands law to rape And so that was what attracted me I like the psychology of interviewing Both suspect and trying to obtain fresh New evidence from witnesses Using psychological techniques to try to recover memories Not hypnosis I might add But there are techniques out there To try to recover memories Which could obviously be very useful In trying to solve a case Fantastic, that's exactly where I wanted to go Because in one of those interviews You kind of revealed one of those And it sounds really basic But I could tell by the way you were talking about it That it was super effective And you used it in your police work And now I think you definitely used it In this important book, Non-Human Tell us about that and particularly Not interrupting people and letting them talk Yeah, and it's a strange thing to do at first Because it's not the natural way of conversation The natural interaction between humans Is I talk, you talk, I talk, you talk But when you come to trying to retrieve memories Of a profound significant incident What you want to do is not interrupt The train of thought by the witness Who is concentrating on it So it could in a long story short It's called the Enhanced Cognitive Method And basically it's designed to be used Within days, hours after a significant event To try to retrieve as much memory as possible Now, you're right I thought I would try it with a couple of witnesses In the book, Important Military US Air Force Military Witnesses And it worked particularly well On two interviews with a guy called Sergeant Adrian Bustinza And another one called Airman Steve Longero Airman Steve Longero was a three and a half hour Transatlantic phone call Almost 42 years after the event That is not what it's supposed to do But you can incorporate elements of it And with Adrian Bustinza That was like 41 years after the event And that was a four and a half hour Transatlantic phone call So you can't hypnotise people But what you can do Is to try to set up the interview In the best way And there is a technique for that And cutting a long story short Is that once you've developed That rapport stage Made them feel comfortable You've explained the procedure That you're going to try to do You then effectively say Look, I'm now going to hand the interview Over to you And you just tell me Whatever you want to say In whatever order you want to say it And I am not going to interrupt you And it's called the first account And the first account goes against Your basic method of interaction Because you want to cut in and say You said red Was it a red car? What was it? You want to naturally do that But in this first interview With something that's really profound The last thing you want to do Is interrupt the witnesses train of thought So you set them up And then you say Look, all I'm going to do Is just nod my head Okay And that's called googling And that just encourages And it passes the ball Back to the interviewee Without me interrupting Their train of thought And what you want them to do is You've set it up and said Look, whether you want to look at the wall Look down at your feet Close your eyes Whatever works best for you But I want you to concentrate On trying to retrieve memories Of what this incident was And once you'd handed it over You then did that And amazingly In those two highly significant interviews They did that They captured And were able to retrieve more information Than they would have ever done before And there is a particular Aspect of the interview That I did with Sergeant Adrian Bastinza Which I think is arguably The most powerful part Of the book Where he has been interrogated In an underground facility Which is believed to be on area of Brentwaters He's got either side of him Two big kind of like Mafioso kind of figures But they're not Air force officers Special investigation He's told to sit down He's put in a darkened room There's a screen And there's somebody behind the screen But he can't see who they are But somebody from the other side Is talking to them And he has been threatened With his life Because he has Advertently found himself A witness to something He really shouldn't have seen And they are threatening him With his life And there's a page of testimony Which is so palpable For me It's probably the highlight Section of the book And there's literally one page Where it's just all free text And there's no interruption And he is talking about that Interrogation And the key thing that comes across Is the palpable fear The anxiety He was being threatened with his life His father worked for the government His family were being surveilled In the United States And his mum was worried For her husband's job He was told Bullets are cheap And he was just a young man In his early 20s A sergeant And he was thinking I've joined the US Air Force To protect my country And I am now Made to feel like I'm a criminal I'm being threatened with my life Which really disgusted him And he came out of that Basically saying I was so disgusted that my treatment That I wanted to go Airwalt Absent without leave Dessert in other words Now that's a really powerful Piece of testimony And if you've read that I think anybody will go Wow Because when I read it back In the proofing stage I do When I proof I kind of read it like A narrator Or an actor And give it some emphasis And when I read it back I thought, Jesus This is really powerful stuff And that just shows you One of the less known elements Of the Rendlesham Forest case Where Four or five people That would know of Witnesses Military witnesses Were subjected To the very harsh Interrogation Which I can only think is illegal But there you go That's part of the Rendlesham story Which not many people talk about But very powerful testimony And so in those two interviews Adrian Bistanza And Steve Longgero They were able to retrieve Lots of new information Between them Two sightings Steve Longgero New And two Well one Entirely new event For Adrian Bistanza A clarification of a second landing Later on Towards the end of the interview On another night Which is this controversial one Of a second landing Where the base commander Of 12,000 people That it was being filmed On motion picture footage Which for anybody Over a certain age Means moving images Video With 12 intense purposes That it was being filmed That it was A second craft Was on the ground In a field Surrounded by US Air Force Very very controversial Because the original Military whistleblower Was a guy called Larry Warren Young kid Again 19 years old First tour Literally only being on the base Matter of weeks And he gets caught up into it Now he came out With this story In late 1982 And people went Wow you know But you know How serious Have we got any corroboration And in effect There wasn't corroboration Enough But with this interview It finally put that to bed Because later on In the interview Adrian Bestinsa says Oh Larry Warren He said Yeah he was in I don't know why they picked him But they were He was closer to the craft Than I was So you're confirming That Larry Warren was there Yes And he was closer to the craft Than you Yes That there was US Air Force Security Police officers All around you Yes That it was being filmed On motion picture footage Yes And that Colonel Larry Warren Was present Yes Now Larry Warren Are taking that A slight stage further Originally in late 1982 By saying That when he was A part of the cord And three What can only be described As entities of some Description Some life forms Were Didn't come from a doorway Effectively slipped off The fabric of the craft Which is described About 30 feet across Shimmering You couldn't look at it Straight on Because it would distort But like a bubble Slipped off the fabric of the craft And the single bubble Then divided into three bubbles And within each of the bubbles Was affected with the upper torso What can only be described As a child-like Small entity And there was some kind of Silent face-off With the base commander Of 12,000 personnel So this is a big deal That's what I felt And you've now got Adrian Mustyn as saying Yeah, that happened But the thing that surprised me He said But that happened on a different night I said What do you mean? And he said It happened on a different night Because the existing story Is that this had happened On what was called The third night Popularly known as The whole night I said Not the whole night He said No, I was involved In another incident Now it might not be The actual next night But it probably is Given all the other circumstances But the key thing What he was saying is That Adrian Mustyn The Sergeant Adrian Mustyn Was being involved In another incident On another night So a second night Of involvement for him This we didn't know about So again, absolutely fresh We call it fresh snow When you retrieve New information That's been locked up Locked away in your memory And then suddenly They were able to recall it And that was a Significant clarification But this puts it to bed And effectively What was supposed to happen Was that the base commander Was in a silent Non-verbal communication With one or three of these Entities Basically, there may be Less than ten feet apart These three entities Are floating off the ground And there's the base commander So there's a plus This security cordon Around it All being filmed Now one incredible thing If that happened Well Sergeant Adrian Mustyn Was saying that happened Because I was there But he also said that Colonel Holt was there Or Lieutenant Colonel Holt The deputy base commander Who we've become well aware of For many years in documentaries But effectively He has denied that there was Ever a second landing Since he retired Now if you've read the book You'll realize that He actually made a Significant admission To my eyes as a former Detective That would stand up in a Court of Law in 1985 Six years before he retired And then became This public personality That you now see In all the documentaries So I can talk about that If you want But that was a brilliant Admission in 1985 That confirmed that That incident in the field Happened way before he Retired So I think that's highly Relevant How's that? You know before we Started like rolling I told you that I was Scrambling with Where to go And you just kind of Layed out probably 10 or 15 topics That I want to talk on And we could talk for an hour I mean one Right off the bat I think the method That you used here Is particularly important And I'm really glad That you explained it So people can Because everyone's Trying to figure out Who's real Who's legit And who's telling A good story The right story Who's really Who's really delivering The good I think you give us Some reasons to suspect That you really Are delivering the good Staying up all night Over there in the UK To do 4 hour phone calls With Atlantic I was shattered In the morning Because one of the things That people don't realise Is that if you're An interview and you know About this In your capacity As a podcaster Radio show Is that When you're Thinking of the questions To ask your interviewee That is mentally tiring And plus You've got all your equipment To work You've got timings To consider It's difficult So imagine You've been up all day And then you finally Get to speak to the guy You've been after For several years You finally get to speak To me Comes in from work And I immediately say You know You've just come in From work Do you want me to call back Do you want to Get something to eat And he basically said No let's do it now Little did I suspect That I was going to Go on for four and a half hours So with the transatlantic Time difference This kind of finished At like six in the morning For me And I have mentally Been going for Four and a half hours And I'm exhausted But I would say That it was the most Important UFO Interview I've ever done And arguably The most important thing I've ever done In my life In terms of Non-family things Because of the significance Of his role as a witness And Adrian Mustinsa Has got the longest Chapter in the book Because he had made A number of pronouncements Over the years But he was heavily Affected by his interrogation He was a religious person Family man And he Suffered nightmares Post trauma But he also And it's not I don't really touch On it too much Is that he Suffered a medical Injury As a result of Another incident That he was involved In with Another witness called John Burroughs This is during The Rendlington Forest events Over those few days John Burroughs was with Jim Peniston on What was called The First Night Landing of a small Triangular craft On the night Of Christmas night Into Boxing Day That's class as the First Night Nobody really disputes That's the First Night But a couple Of nights later On what was called The third night The whole night Where he does About his involvement And also produces An audio tape Which we can talk about Because that's interesting But basically John Burroughs Had come back When he'd heard The other incident He lived off Base in Ipswich A town about 11 miles away And he'd managed To get a lift Back to the base Because he got wind I don't know how But he got wind Another UFO incident Was developing At night So he gets back there And eventually After Lieutenant Colonel Holt's small team Comes back After being out On patrol For four and a half hours And the witness In multiple UFOs They come back To what's called The staging area The staging area Is a significant place Because it was Where all the Vehicles were They couldn't go Any further Into the forest So it's Where all the vehicles Stopped It became Like a parking Area And lots of Personnel Were kept there In case They were needed Now Sergeant Adrian Bestinza Was a part Of Holt's team So this is A significant involvement The guy Who was later Interrogated And saw this Other incident So They come back To the staging area And John Burroughs Is there And he says Can I go back out there And Colonel Holt Is reluctant To let him go But he says Okay And for some reason He asks Sergeant Adrian Bestinza To go out with him Back into the forest And he's only Literally just They'll come out And fear for a short time And off they go And no Sooner Literally I think No more than Five, ten minutes later And they're not quite In the field They're I think close to the field The exact position Has never been truly Identified But it's near to the field And there's Woods all the way Near to it The forest Adrian Bestinza says That he feels a force On the back of his legs As if somebody's Kicked his back Of his legs Which causes him To go forward Onto his knees And put his hands out As that happens He sprawled out A light Of maybe twenty meters Of John About twenty meters In front of him A light Suddenly engulfs John Burroughs Absolutely intense Bright white light Engulfs him And as it does so Part of the beam Of the light Strikes Adrian Bestinza Across his hands And part of his groin And amazingly He then developed a rash Which he still has to this day In the position that happened And his groin as well It's non-life threatening But it's been there And he attributes it Directly to that event But the event that he saw Looking forward Is John Burroughs It was about six foot six He's a giant Is that he's engulfed In this bright light It's so intense All he can see Is like a small figure Entity Whatever you want to call it On the left side of John John in the middle And another figure Smaller on the right side And then the light goes out They go back And this is an interesting thing As well Because we talk about Missing time And abductions And whatever Now when they left From Adrian Bestinza And John Burroughs Point of view They were only gone For about ten minutes But when they got back to the Staging area Colonel Holt Well, Lieutenant Colonel Holt At the time He was angry with them Where have you been? What have you been doing? And he kind of Said that they'd been gone For forty minutes But according to John And Adrian About ten minutes So you have this time Missing time experience And of course With what we now Know of the subject I think it's entirely Freezable That during that Missing twenty-thirty minute period That something happened to John And perhaps Adrian Bestinza Adrian Bestinza has never Undergone any hypnosis John Burroughs has And he recalls stuff under hypnosis I'm not a big fan of the hypnosis Because yes You can get Some interesting Anecdotal information But evidentially It's not really worth the paper It's written on Because you can't really You've altered the mind's status It's not under free recall So I would say that As a question mark About what comes out I'm not saying it doesn't reveal information It probably does But in terms of evidence I wouldn't hold it that strong Gary it's interesting That you said a couple of times This puts it to bed And I know completely What you mean But I think you're speaking now From someone who has been I guess just intensely Involved in this case And in this field for a long time And you've lived through These controversies And I'd like to Play you a video clip And then I want you to recount How the How the whole I don't want to say narrative How this case has evolved In terms of public opinion In terms of Decenters, skeptical people Who are some of them Seem to be genuinely skeptical Some of them seem to be Have an agenda-driven Skeptical nature to it Let me play this video Maybe a couple of videos And then You can tell me Tell me what it's about My name is Gary Eseltine And I am a recently retired Police detective In England Having served almost 24 years With the Bridge Transport Police For the majority of that time For 20 years I was a detective I was dealing at the sharp end Of evidential matters Of him being involved In murder, manslaughter, rape Etc. Etc. I come to this subject On an evidential basis And I think that is very Necessary in this field I am here principally To speak on behalf of police Officers worldwide Who have witnessed UFOs But I would also like to say That I'm also one of the Principal investigators Of the Rendlesham Forest Incident That my colleague Peter's Alluding to Along with Linda Mullen-Howell I would consider as the Three principal investigators Of this incident We're all doing very good Work on it For the last five years I have worked with Colonel Charles Holt The man who wrote The Holt Memorandum The Deputy Base Commander Of what was Absolutely a nuclear facility And let me back that up By saying that for three years Of my six years In the Royal Air Force Between 1983 and 1989 I served on two nuclear bases Doing exactly the same job As what those US Air Force Policemen did And the base About what is it identical To the base that I Was in. In West Germany Where I worked Let's cut the crap This is a nuclear issue. Okay. I thought you'd get a kick. I dug that up and I said I got to play it for this guy To look back. Let's go back in the time capsule Tell us what we just watched And tell us a little bit about What's going on at that time Versus what's going on in this time Because again I want to frame up this book Non-human And what this book means In a post-disclosure world That we live in Because the clip we showed Was definitely pre-disclosure And it has a different tone to it A different ring to it There's so many things I know you could speak to on that Just jump in wherever you want Well, the video that Clip that you showed Was myself giving testimony What was called the Citizens' Hearings In Washington DC In late April Early May Of 2013 In effect It was a mock congressional hearing And we gave testimony Approximately 40 Witnesses Stroke Researchers Who gave testimony For five days Over five days Monday to Friday At the National Press Club Which is very close to the White House A very prestigious place And we gave testimony before One former senator And five former congressmen And women So a panel of six People who I think Who had collectively 80-plus years of public office Amongst them So very esteemed people And in fact The senator Mike Gravella I think at one time Been a presidential candidate So that's how kind of Important he was And I was giving testimony Principally about my work With police officers What we haven't touched upon For your listeners Is that How I became known within the UFO field Was Whilst I was still a serving Detective In 2000 And January 2002 I went public With the launch of a Police database And an unofficial National police Database For UK police officers Called Proofos Police Reporting UFOs And as a result That attracted a fair bit Of media attention TV Radio Newspapers Etc And that's how I became known And one thing that I didn't Anticipate The spin-off from that And I'll come back To where we're going with this Is that UFO groups in the UK Started to say Will you give us lectures About your police cases Because I would By creating the database I was basically encouraging Serving and retiring The UK police officers To report sightings to me And I would create a database Plus I would also Collect any historical sightings That were found in books, magazines, etc And police officers did start To come forward So I began to Ask to do lectures And as a result of that Over time I was then Becoming more well known Media-wise And I was invited By Steve Bassett To be one of the witnesses At the City of Missouri Just before that Three months before Completely out the blue And I was flabbergasted I'm not very often lost for words But I was when Again at the National Press Club He'd invited me For what was an EXO conference In 2010 And then suddenly On the Saturday night At the Like the evening gala event He presented me with The Disclosure Award The PRG Disclosure Effectively within UFO terms The World Disclosure Award Some very eminent people have won that And I got that And it was on the strength of that That I then was elevated And asked to do a lot of International lectures And I've now lectured in 21, 22 countries I think at the moment And so that's how I My involvement was a significant And I think it's because of that That then when the citizens' Hearings came about Steve Bassett asked me to Talk initially Just about police officers I shouldn't have really talked about Rendlesham at all But what I would have to say is that And this is coming back To the framing of your question In 2013 I was still in a close Working collaborative relationship With former retired Deputy base commander Charles Holt Colonel Charles Holt I'd met him in December of 2007 When we both appeared In an episode of UFO Hunters with Bill Burns It was a TV series that ran on I think the history channel for three seasons And anyway it was in the first series And that's how I'd met him And we got on well And at the end of that shoot I basically said Will you collaborate with me I kind of do amateur screen Player writing for films I've always loved the cinema I've always considered that At some point in the future There will be a major Hollywood film About Rendlesham Forest The problem is that the From a Hollywood's point of view And I've talked to producers The problem is there isn't a Harrison Ford Heroic figure for them And we're talking multiple nights Hundreds of people basically A lot of moving parts And Hollywood tends to like a hero There are some heroes But nobody who encompasses the whole event So anyway We struck up this rapport So this was in a good period So I had a seven year collaboration period Between late 2007 To about late 2014 We can talk about why Ended that relationship later on Talk about why you ended it I think that brings it full circle Before we go on too much I think back to this question of Who do we trust? What is disclosure? Even the people who are trying to be Good guys trying to be I think he's trying to be the Harrison Ford character And then he's certainly stepping forward And saying I am the Harrison Ford character But then we find out in your book That he's not exactly the Harrison Ford character And he's playing a role that He has to play Which a lot of these guys in it are doing What's so fascinating about the book Is you talk to people who we look at And we go holy shit This guy isn't playing the game This guy is just really telling us The truth And that contrast is what Really makes the book so phenomenal Well I think The primary focus of the book Was to tell the truth In a way to the people That it's never been told before To analyze everything That had gone on in the last four to two years Since the incident Present it in an evaluated way So you examine it You look at the transcripts of old interviews You take away the key parts And you think what's he trying to say And I applied myself as a former detective To kind of do a like a cold case review And a lot of people A lot of researchers who I've sent it to Have said it's like no other UFO book Because it's analytical In terms of dissecting interviews The key parts etc And drawing obvious conclusions You can make reason conclusions And so that's what I did And I took all the sentiment out Because I knew a lot of these people Had had kind of relationships Working relationships I knew them well Not so well in some cases But I took all the personality out of it And really wanted to concentrate on the facts And in fact I start off with a great quote At the beginning by Trey Gowdy Former Republican congressman Who basically said the facts are the facts I'm not Democrat I'm not Republican The facts are the facts And that was my mantra basically To take away personality And just examine the facts Evaluate the key parts And then put them forward As a reason conclusion Which is what I've done throughout the book And a lot of people seem I've had incredible reviews By researchers across the board Saying that it's not like anything else And the forward of the book Is written by Don Smith Which is really good for me Not only is he a friend Because he's part of ISA The International Coalition for Extra-Trust Research Of which I'm the Vice President And he's the North American director Don is eminent And arguably in most people's eyes The leading expert on Roswell Well most people will say That Roswell is like Arguably the most important UFO case in history Because of its historical significance And allegedly what was Recurred as a craft and bodies I would A lot of people would say That renders from forest Because of its complex nature Multiple nights of activity And we can talk about the conclusions Of the book later on Where I break it down The timeline That I was able to break it down The number of incidents That people involved in But when you look at the renders from forest Incident Many people regard it as the second Most famous case No, it's clearly after this book After non-human It's clearly the most important UFO case Because we don't have any information Take your book And compare it with everything We have on Roswell And we're already 10 steps ahead In terms of multiple trusted Eyewitnesses, multiple incidents Multiple Sources for those And new sources still emerging That have a difference been on it too So let me pull you back to Before we get too far down the road Okay, right Okay, so The primary reason for Doing the book Was to try to change The existing narrative Of the case And During an evolving period Of my time with Colonel Holtz So literally from when I became Publicly involved in research Which was December 2007 When I first met Holtz Then I had that seven year collaboration Period and I've been doing research And then I've done a deep dive Back into the case to write the book The book took three years to write Five years of re-investigation And I found lots of old historical Books that I'm not even aware of I found an incredible admission That I was not aware of And I'm pretty certain that 80% of the people who read this book Will not have a clue About the level of content That's in it Because I'm revealing stuff That's never been presented Uniformly to the public In one go There are lots of books on the UFOs There are lots of books on the renders from forest That are held into it In a A logical analytical way They've had their own bias Towards it somewhere written by Witnesses themselves But I kind of use my detective skills To try to do an update The best book in many ways Prior To non-human Is the book by Georgina Brunei That came out in the year 2000 She can't tell the people She wasn't a UFO person at all She was kind of like A celebrity Writer But she got involved and she did I think an excellent job in tracking down witnesses And it's a pretty good Guide of where we were in 2000 that summarized the whole case But here we are now 42 years after the event We've got a plethora of books But none that really Look at it in an overall Review And so that's what I tried to do And one of the reasons why I tried to do it And you'll notice Well, you might not be aware of this But there was no pre-publicity For my book on Amazon whatsoever Now that's not a coincidence I deliberately did that And the reason why I deliberately did that Is because I know for a fact That some people did not want This book to come out And had I flagged it up And said it's going to be out On the 10th of August I may well have been challenged legally Or attempts at challenging me I didn't want that and I thought I want to get the truth out there So when it was done When it was proved It went out And it went out onto the radar And then I began the publicity By then I'd already given copies To researchers And I was very humbled By the feedback Especially Don Smith wrote the forward Given his prominence with Roswell And the link between the two cases In historical significance Kind of ratings And I was amazed The response that I got from researchers And delighted obviously But it went out under the radar Deliberately and then I started the publicity Now I'm at the stage now Where I am looking For a mainstream Big publisher Because on Amazon I can go around all the world on Amazon But you don't have the same distribution You don't have the same Promotion facilities A big publisher now But now I think I can go back with all the reviews That I've got from researchers And say look you could have a best seller here And it's not because I want to be this major best seller Although people will say of course it does But no my only Primary thing was I wanted the feedback From my peer group My research of peer group And that has been uniformly Brilliant so I'm humbled By their kind words But I think that I am limited In how I can Expose this book to what should be Hundreds of thousands Only people who were Really interested in the subject Will know the Rendlesham case And only those That's a small percentage Although millions of people are interested In the subject Very few actually get books And of those that do You need to have a real name behind you Now I'm well known in the UK And I've done lots of international lectures I gave testimony at the citizens hearings In June 2022 I gave testimony Before the Brazilian Senate And that's a really powerful Speech that was Didn't come out quite the way I wanted it Because I didn't Intend to be as passionate as I was But I was so passionate And I saw some of the faces Of the politicians and I thought no I'm going to hit you with the evidence here And so I really kind of went after them And gave them the truth about the subject But in terms of the Book Why to change the narrative Because for the last 25 years Basically four people Have controlled Every documentary that's ever been made Lieutenant Colonel Halt Sergeant Jim Tennyson And Airman John Burroughs And one other person Nick Pope Who was the former M.O.D. Now you'll see in the book That there's a chapter on Nick Pope But he has a very, very Important role Or link to the case That I think is detrimental to the case And all of these people I've met multiple occasions And the narrative As it stands now is wrong Because they Attack other Witnesses that come forward And that should not be the reaction Of people who are genuinely Involved in an event That is pretty unique What Colonel Halt should have done So before you Back up a little bit on Halt Because he's Super important as you say In this story And if we're going to try and fit him in Because you said Not everyone But so many people have heard the recording Which was the big juicy thing 10 years ago Oh my God, the Colonel's out in the forest And he's actually doing a recording That sticks in everyone's head And he forms a support The memorandum But what you reveal here Is in this book He knows more He knows more He was playing Some kind of misinformation Disinformation game Not only with the general public But even with you and no doubt with other researchers So What did you think back to our clip What did you think back then And what did you think How did that evolve And where does that put you In this spectrum of Who do you trust, misinformation, disinformation No information Because you have a military background You understand that there are secrets That have to be maintained But I think we both understand That there's a difference when it becomes Misinformation and disinformation And intentional deceit and intentional manipulation And even more immoral stuff So take us down that path for a minute With Holt as being The figure for driving us Through that narrative Well, when I first met Colonel Holt On the very first night that we met In December of 2007 for this film shoot We kind of both found ourselves In the reception area of the hotel Where we were staying for the film in And the film crew were out After six at night And he didn't recognise me Because he'd never met me So I approached him and said Look, I'm a former RAF police officer I've been invited to take part We got on like a house on fire And we sat down And we weren't required for filming that night So we sat in the pub That was part of the hotel And we had a meal And we chatted famously And at the end of that I'd said Well, that I'm right And he said yes, so that's how the collaboration began But he said on that first night He told me there were more nuclear weapons At RAF boat waters than anywhere else in Europe He told me that And then since then I did Now I can't prove it But that's what he said I actually did write it down in a book After that Which I can produce Where I wrote some things about Because I was excited to meet him Not in awe of him, but I was certainly Very pleased to meet him And we got on really well And anyway, that collaboration period And it had begun on the basis of Collaboration for a film script I was going to write it I was going to send him updates And he would give me advice On trying to make it more authentic And he loved the scripts as they went along Now I'd said at the start Tell me everything And he said he would Have no reason at that time In 2007 And early 2008 To think that he was lying Alright However, things progressed So One of the things that stands out Is that I said From the start I'm going to go away for four months Research everything that I could This is late 2007 And I'm going to come back to the early 2008 And I'm going to start asking you questions So I went back, did that Four months later I started asking him questions And I said to him Who was the fifth person in your group And he went I'm not quite sure of the name And he could reel off Munro Neville, Sergeant Ball Lieutenant England himself Who was the fifth person? I can't remember And I said to him He's actually on the audio tape Oh yes, yes It was kind of like that That's a bit odd Anyway, that was an inkling perhaps Down the line It was clear That Colonel Holt Was definitely involved He did write the Holt memorandum He was a witness to what was In regard to the third night events And he was aware Of lots of things on and around Now as the relationship went on It was clear to me Or it began to become clear To me that he probably knew a lot more And he was being a bit inconsistent And he particularly Had a downer Larry Warren, the original Military whistleblower Which I could never quite understand Other than being the fact that it was a result Of him that the memorandum came out And he then became This public figure And he told me He's quite open about it He tried to get it pulled when he knew it was coming out As he knew his life would never be the same And I actually said On the first night I met him I said, when you die I said, you've had a fantastic military career But you will not be remembered for your military career You'll be remembered for being The deputy base commander at Reynolds and Forest And he looked at me and said That's the reality, it's such a famous case That's what you'll be remembered for So anyway It comes to 2014 I was becoming increasingly concerned About where he was going with some of the things That he was saying about people Can I interject a question here Because I'm really curious Because you have that military background And I'm sure you in police work In the military You rub shoulders with the intelligence folks Enough to know How that thing is played Where do you suspect he is at In 2008 In terms of them saying Hey pal, this is the narrative This is the line, don't cross over it And for God's sake, don't wind up in a pub Have a couple too many drinks And tell people about And then, so where is the line And then how does that work How much are they Manipulating pushing What do you think, you've been there You know how it works What I consider Is that Colonel Holt knows a lot more I believe that he was Involved in at least One more NATO activity Which is the admission that he made To research a MUFON researcher In 1985 Which we can talk about in a bit Because it's super important Because it was made before he retired And his reply To a question over the phone Was written down verbatim Which is key It's a verbatim quote But the key thing is That Colonel Holt is an interesting figure Because a lot of people have said Well he never got interrogated And why not Well I guess that's maybe because of his high rank But he would say to people That he's never been quizzed Particularly about after the incident Which doesn't kind of make sense To most people And I kind of figured out In the book what the answer is And the answer is down to Gordon Williams, the base commander at the time Now base commander Gordon Williams, the guy who had this Supposed meeting with the entities in the field Which is key to the whole Story And Adrian Bestenza, Sergeant Adrian Bestenza James Fox The noted filmmaker I think he was For his documentary I know what you saw And anyway He tracked down Colonel Williams At a golf resort I think And anyway Colonel Williams is retired And he's lent on the side of his car And he just interviews him And Colonel Williams' attitude Was When the memorandum came out The Holt memorandum That should have never Of come out, but it did And it went away And it had a life of its own And he basically said You couldn't put Humpty back together again And what he meant by that And I watched the clip over and over And over the time of writing the book I began to realise its significance Because what he was basically saying is Okay For three years we denied everything And then you found the memo We could not deny it anymore It was on the letterheaded US Air Force note paper And it's a genuine We can't deny it We can't deny the contents Which is two nights of UFO activity But We could deny everybody else But anything else We will deny And that's exactly where Colonel Holt is I think his role was You can say Now the memo's out You can talk around about Your involvement on the night And walk around that You can talk about that Because it's in the memo But do not On any circumstances Talk about little green men Floating entities, another landing And anything else Which kind of makes sense Gary, and that speaks again To folks The significance of the book Putting that into context There isn't another book that takes the story And gives you the story And explains how we were fed What we were fed And why we were fed it But it is still the base Of understanding because we operated Under that kind of Illusion for a long time So now we can use that as the base And then we can take non-human and say Hey, but they were filming it Hang on, let me just put in there Because this is important what you're saying Because what that does Is it affects the narrative The people that controlled the narrative Were Holt, Penison and Burroughs And Nick Pope So every TV producer went to them And says, oh, look, we want to make a documentary About Rendlestom, who do you want in the program Well, they decided who the guests would be Now, if this was any other subject A political program or an expose They wouldn't get a look in But they were given effectively Who they wanted So they have controlled the way The case has been portrayed And all the really witnessed testimony ever emerges In these documentaries And when new document and new testimony Does arrive, like Adrian Bistins's It gets attacked, like Steve Longero The first response From Colonel Holt was, oh, it's just Larry Warren's drinking pal He's just got him out, he's one of his drinking drunk pals And that's not The way it should be It should be, I always felt That Holt should have been the one As the senior person involved Or to say, look, however big Or small your part is Let's all come together as a group And let's try to work as one To find out what really happened But he never did that And people couldn't really understand that But now when you look at it with the Clip of what Colonel Williams says Now Colonel Williams has said No, I never was in that field No, talk of aliens Rubbish, Holt has said No, I was never in that field When I did the deep dive And then I came across this admission That he made six years Before you retired Talk about the specifics of that Because you have the evidence in the book You have reproduced It's all there There's three types of evidence That happens in all western world Evidence for court Which is oral testimony Written documents Which is called documentary evidence Which is physical If I pick up this microphone That's something physical you can hold in your hand And you can produce that as an exhibit That's called real evidence But what it means is it's something physical So on all the basis of all cases That go to court in the US, the UK Around the western world That's how evidence is done Oral testimony is then turned into Written testimony that becomes a written statement But it starts off as oral testimony So those three are the basis of everything You're gonna have witnesses You're gonna have written information You're gonna have maybe physical objects Video tape, audio tape In the whole memorandum If you think of the whole memorandum As a document That's a unique piece of documentary evidence Written evidence This is arguably one of the top five, ten documents In UFO history So what we have is this Evidential aspect that most people don't realise They just think what evidence In any evidence the UFO is all rubbish Because that's the way it's being portrayed But there is a lot of evidence that you can gather And a lot of the evidence Comes in the form of old interviews In little known UFO journals And so I try to do that Now when I did the deep dive I talked to a guy called Ray Boucher Now this guy For me is an absolute hero And yet I guarantee you're 99% of the people in Rendleton and the UFO world Never heard of him Why? Because people haven't really given him And his colleague Scott Colburn Who was sadly passed away recently The credit they were due They were Mufon investigators And they lived in Nebraska And their senator was Senator James Exxon Who was on the Senate Arms Committee And so he was a very Long-standing, well-respected Senator And because Ray Boucher and Scott Colburn Were Mufon and they were interested in Rendleton because it involved American personnel largely They went to the senator Exxon And said, you know, does this a case In the UK? It's involving the US Air Force Spirit Police. Lots of people Involved and they've seen some Incredible stuff. Are you interested in it? No, I'm not really interested. They met him And they said, well, if we get you more evidence Will you get, you know, take an interest And he said, well, if you get me more evidence I will. So quite a long story short They're getting the memo They're getting the audio tape And he's kind of interested So he goes Ray Boucher, he goes Do you know what? I'm going to ring Colonel Holt So he gets all of his numbers at a different base It calls him out in the blue Colonel Holt is still in the US Air Force This is not the public Personality that you've come to know Over the last 50 or 60 documentaries He's still in the Air Force He's a full-bird Colonel In April of 1985 And he says, Colonel I am Ray Boucher. I'm a Mutual UFO Network Researcher, investigating in Reddleton Forest Now, by that stage, Ray Boucher Had actually talked To a number of military Witnesses, including Larry Warren And Sergeant Adrian Burstins And so he basically said Right, I'm going to put out A scenario to you and can you give me A comment on it And he went, okay, I've talked to Larry Warren, I've talked to Adrian Burstins And others, basically What they're telling me is that there is A landing of a craft in a field That it's been surrounded by US Air Force Security Police officers It's been filmed on video motion picture cameras And that the base commander Colonel Gordon Williams In charge of 12,000 people is there And his response was And he wrote it down verbatim He says, yeah, I can verify all of that I can substantiate all of that For the senator And when I read that On his notes, his research notes That Ray Boucher had very kindly sent me And then he fell off my chair Because there it is and he wrote down verbatim And Let's just be clear To the skeptics who'll be out there saying You know, you've got the wrong end of the steak It was unambiguous He wasn't unambiguous because Go through them one by one again And one of them is super significant The four things that he said, hey, can you confirm What are the things, the four things are I think So what he got admitted to That was written down verbatim I can verify that I can substantiate all of that For the senator, for Senator James Epton Was that There'd been another landing Not the one in the whole memo That it was in a field That US Air Force Security police officers were in a cordon Around this craft That it was being filmed On cameras with motion picture Not still photographs Moving image Video for one cent of a word And that Colonel Williams The guy in charge of the top strike base In the United Kingdom In charge of 12,000 personnel Was present When all of this is being filmed The guy who later leans against the car In Fox's No, no aliens No, that's all rubbish But basically I had to admit that there was the memo And so But putting it in the context Suddenly James Exxon Don't want to know Scott Colburn or Ray Boucher anymore And so Ray Boucher Ketch ringing open He talks to his staffers and they say now he's busy, he's busy And he basically never gets to see him again And he keeps getting the push Off and he writes letter after letter To Senator Exxon And they all get rejected And blah blah blah Now some of the letters that Ray Boucher wrote Were absolutely brilliant And two of them are highlighted in the book In full Because they are like little pieces of documentary evidence Because in some of the paragraphs It lays it out Unambiguous I rang up Colonel Halt on such and such And I asked him I gave him this scenario That there was a landing in a field That it was being surrounded by a security place That it was being filmed on motion picture footage And that Colonel Williams was there And you said this And he'd wrote it down verbatim So if the You know, if people had said it was unambiguous It can be because he's reiterated it completely So that data is super important And then Oh yeah, but here's The next level stuff that the book Your book Nonhuman Takes Us Is You have all the pieces In place and the knowledge and the background To explore this Is that where does this take us In terms of Atrean Bistenza Undergoes this Enhanced interrogation Completely immoral, completely illegal Two things I want to go with that One, that is my lab That is the beginning of my lab Because these guys who show up It's not their first rodeo So that is super Super important to this whole thing And that speaks to Williams leaning against the car This is This is a fact when you want to say Puts it to bed This is a super important point That the book puts to bed That in 1980 they were all over this stuff No one was particularly surprised The guy with the camera Was there, the whole thing was going This is not their first rodeo Speak to that Absolutely And here's an interesting development That came from the book And in a sense has come Post release of the book In the conclusions of the book Or in one of the chapters of the book There is a chapter with an entirely new Witness called James Stewart Who was not a secured policeman He was a US Air Force crew chief He basically repaired aircraft Now in the book He said He had this incredible sighting Which we can talk about But he had this sighting in late December 1980 And he'd assumed That it was the Reynoldsium Incident Because that was famous However After the book's release Literally within a week or so Of the book's release He rang me up and he said I've been checking my personal records Actually I left the base In December In early 1982 Early 1980 Yeah, yeah So I think it was February 1980 And so he said My sighting My event must have been December Late December 1979 Now on the one hand It takes it away from the late cluster Of sightings in late December But it then throws up all these new questions Because if this guy is for real And I checked his records And he's bonafide who he is Really nice guy No likes to grind and I think he's a genuine Witness But his event was December 1979 Well if you now think That in late December A really significant UFO event Happened in the forest And by the East Gate In 1979 That's why some people But I wonder why Cameras were there Did they know Were they in advanced knowledge That something was going to happen UFO-wise And let's put this Skeptical argument to bed Some people have theorised That it's a A weapon It's mass hysteria It was the lighthouse It was A technology that would Reflected on to the sky In the conclusion of the book I break down all the incidents Into different time events And do you know how many incidents there are Well you do because you've read the book But take it away what I said 18 Then this James Stewart Is taken out because it's a year earlier But we left with 17 Different time events All involving That can be described in Any human terrestrial Turn We're talking beach ball Size glowing red objects Car size beach ball Car size glowing objects We're talking about triangles We're talking about white spheres You know we're talking Structure We're also talking abduction We're talking abduction There's at least two abduction elements To the to the to the Rental some events But what you've got to understand Is that nobody ever broke it down In quite that way And I go into a lot more sightings And discovered a lot more sightings Steve Longgero The next cognitive interview with He Went on to admit That he'd been inside the nuclear Weapons storage area When he'd seen a UFO Into the nuclear bunkers And it was what was underground Not inside the bunkers Because in the bunkers Doors would open and it would go underground The weapons would go underground And he said that So this is first-hand testimony We'd never had this before We'd had rumours But now we have a guy putting his name to it In a statement saying I saw a beam coming down into the bunkers And it did this And it went down the hot row Of bunkers Which is about 200 metres long So he was doing some kind of scan What he's in there All right But what also emerged Through his new testimony Was that he'd literally been on shift A couple of days And he was walking around inside The weapons storage area With an experienced airman or sergeant He couldn't quite remember How it worked inside The weapons storage area But he said well When the UFO went off Turned its beam off and then went out It headed towards Reynolds from Forest Towards the East Gate and Reynolds from Forest And he could hear people of the radio Following it And as soon as it went in the forest Then people There was like an order Given that we want as many security police Into the forest Because we don't know what we're dealing with That would be the inference And so because he was super-numerary And it wouldn't happen ordinarily He was taken from the site And told to get in a truck And off he went to the forest Well when he goes to the forest He goes to the staging area The area where they can't go any further So they leave the vehicle He's then with a group of 10 or 15 others Who are all thinking what the hell's going on And they're taken to what Was described as the first night landing The depressions in the ground The triangle depressions But guess what, while he's there They have a UFO sighting themselves Nobody had ever heard of that So this is brand new information Now all that happens is that The likes of Colonel Holt dismisses it all Penison I'm involved In a hoax I'm deceiving everybody by making a hoax Documentary because I'm being involved In a video program that's in post-production Why would I Why would I Put all these years into research Just to shoot myself in the foot And hoax the public That's not what I'm about at all I'm trying to get the truth out And what becomes clear As clear as mud as we would say in the UK Is that there is a Complete narrative control By four people And that is wrong A hell of a lot more than four people Get back to that point though Because You kind of pull back a little bit when I ask That and I can understand why But it is scary To think about Adrian in that room Oh actually He's not the only one But we're not You know, this is Like Abu Ghra Abu Ghra is on kind of one end And then we got this Is all the stuff that we heard Because right now we got guys Standing up there and saying Mamby Pamby, you know, disclosure And yeah, we might have done this We might have done that Own this, own what you did to Adrian Own PTSD for life Only screw them up Not only screw them up But I also want you to speak to It doesn't just go back to 1979 We can only assume that this goes back To at least 1946, right So they have all the pieces in place They're investigating these things All the time, they have a very systematic We can only assume The burden of proof is on them now With this book, with non-human It further shifts the burden of proof In a lot of these areas to say Okay, I'm glad you're coming forward But now tell us Explain to us what happened Explain to us what happened To the testimony that Adrian gave What did you do with it Where did it go? Go ahead Absolutely, Adrian Mustinsa's All the interviews should have been recorded The statements should have been The notes that were taken Adrian Mustinsa said I gave a three page statement But I never saw it again I asked for a copy, I never got it Where is that? Audio interviews Were regularly done by Air Force Special Investigation Where are all that? Now one of the incredible things That's come out in the book and I'm not really Talked about it that much because There is so much to talk about But it's an incredibly important Little piece of information That has huge implications Is during the course of my research I spoke to three US Air Force Security Policemen who said That all of the main Radio channels that the US Air Force Security Police used Central security control, the weapons Storage area and Mobile patrols They were you routinely Recorded on audio tape Now that means There is no ambiguity there There was all the evidence For all the nights We wouldn't have to start piecing it together But nobody talks about that Colonel Holt certainly never talks about that Colonel Williams certainly never talks about that But 3M and lower Lower ranks have said yet It was routinely recorded Where did all that information go? And one other thing here When we talk going back to Colonel Holt Colonel Holt We now have this classic Edited Classic audio tape That's 18 minutes long, that's in the public domain However, he has told Two people that I know Harry Harris Manchester Solister and Also Georgina Brunei Who was the author of You Can't Tell the People In 2000 that he had over five Hours of audio Now why is Georgina Brunei going to make That up and go public with it Why would she do that? Why would she lie? She's not going to do that But according to him No, no, I never said that to Harry Harris No, I never said that to Georgina Brunei And sadly both of them Are not with us anymore So here's the big question There's something going on And here's the big question I speak for hours and we definitely Have to talk again and I want to do everything I can to help you I'll definitely try my best to help you With publishers because I talk to him I definitely try my best to help you With doing a Kindle version As soon as you can and I'd love to help Fund to help you get That, get an audible version out Again, I'd like to just Give a grant to your Work because this is I sincerely believe Important, but hold on Let me finish this question because I don't want to run out of time Your time or my time So, you know, Gary What we're really trying to figure out The ethos of this show is Inquired to perpetuate doubt But it's also who are we, why are we here? That's why I'm interested in E.T. I'm not interested in E.T. Because nuts and bolts are technology I want to know who I am Why I'm here and Where did we come from? Where are we going to, you know Because we'll talk about what they've delivered And the messages That come through and the download And the binary code and all this But part of that equation That you are in a unique position To really give us insights Into is, again Back to Williams leaning on that car And back to the disinformation And the misinformation How much do these guys know? We know that UFO is In control, E.T. is in control E.T. decides that But to what extent does your gut Tell you that On one hand, they may just be Scrambling in the dark I mean, just completely lost in doing this On the other hand, they may be As has been speculated for a long time Partners with one of the groups One of the species with a certain Agenda in doing that What does your gut tell you Is the information game Really going on behind this? How much do they really know? Do you think? In terms of the Americans who have Controlled the subject Literally around the world Since Roswell, certainly since then If not before I think that Whilst we may be on the brink of Disclosure in terms of An admission that we're dealing with Something non-human, that's possible A real possibility with the David Grush Revelations Now, I personally Think that a month after his Comments Nobody's laid a finger on him So I tend to think that he is who he says he is And that if congressional Hearings happen and he takes part And other people who are first-hand Witnesses involved in reverse engineering Projects come on the record Then that might be a game-changer In the media which are still not Playing ball at the moment You don't think he's counterintelligence? Lou Elizondo has been Outed over the last year Counterintelligence, playing the game the whole time He is Richard Doty 2.0 You don't think this is Richard Doty 3.0? Why at this point? Counterintelligence, isn't it A manufactured, they're carrying Some agenda for somebody What do they really know? Do they really know this stuff? Or are they just doing the best they can With very, very limited information? My take on this based On my evidential background Is that there is some agenda at play That we're not aware of That there is something driving this Current set of developments Over the last two years Especially with the changes in legislation In the Congress, etc It does very much look like I think there is some Event that's happened UFO-wise, intelligence-wise There's some event that we're not aware of That is driving the speed Of what's happening now I have personally always felt That After 2017 That there was an attempt By the intelligence community To rewrite history In the sense of America doesn't come out of it very well They have created the stigma That went with the Robertson panel From January 1953 Everything was debunked It worked incredibly well So everybody living after 1950 Born after 1953 has lived in a world of debunking So that's without a shadow of doubt People have died, committed suicide Because they've lost their jobs Lost their homes Because they've admitted they've seen something Terrible ramifications However, my personal thought Is that after 2017 There seemed to be an agenda To rewrite history Where America could get off the hook a bit As to their real relevance In this story They have controlled this since the 1940s At every major UFO event Around the world they have turned up Recovered with the retrieval teams I think without a shadow of a doubt Roswell was real There was a craft, there were bodies Probably, but there was at least a craft And we have done our very best Or the Americans have done their best To put this out to engineering And make that piece work And there has been some level of success However, it may be Tiny, tiny And literally we know less than 1% of how something works But it's still so advanced That it's still big for us But this has all been done Without Senate, Congress, oversight Which is illegal, in my opinion And I think they're trying To get this story out now Just to say Technology is changing at a pace One of the things that I thought For the last 7 or 8 years Is that technology is developing At such a pace that the likes of Sensors on aircraft, on ships, on radar Are picking up things that they didn't pick up before So there's now tons of Data that can be analysed By scientists So scientists who clamour for that data And repeatable data, repeatable experience They're going to have a wealth of all that now If it's released But there's something driving this And I think that there is something else going on That is driving the agenda That says we are very close To a breakthrough All I can say from my point of view I've been followed the subject Since I was 16 When I had my childhood sighting At the age of 16 I'm now 63, that's 47 years of following the subject That this feels like the closest In my lifetime That we are to some kind of breakthrough event Quite how it will transpire And quite to what level I don't know But I think something is driving The Americans To get this out there That there is some interaction With the non-human intelligence And hence why my book is important But it will not be important Unless people get to know about it And I will never have the publicity Machinery Like a publishing house can do But I want to find a publishing house And say look, this needs to be out there Because people are in for a shot And this book will help them Come to terms As Vice President of The International Coalition for Extraterrestrial Research Our remit Is preparing for contact We've got a San Marino initiative That hopefully Will go to the UN Either late this year Or early next year will go to the United Nations The first time since 1978 We're talking about a global Issue This is a human Species issue And this is where we've got to get Away from my country's better than your country We're more important than you We have to start speaking as one humanity No, no, no, don't go there We can't go there Actually, we can go there You want to go there, go there But you have to go there Of non-human Hold on You don't understand exactly what I'm saying Everything about this book Tells me all the reasons we can't go there We won't go there It scares the hell out of us to go there And it would take A complete paradigm Change is too overused A huge cultural revolution In order for us to go there And I want to spin that into A question you mentioned intelligence And I think intelligence Apparatus And we always use that Singular and I think it needs to be plural And you're the right guy, you've been in The military and you've been in policing And you've rubbed shoulders How many different intelligence Agendas do you think Might be out there? Because from The people like me who sit on the sidelines And just casually research it It certainly seems like there's multiple agendas Within these intelligence communities And they seem to be at odds at various times In terms of who's going to push this Who's going to push that What does your gut tell you In terms of what are the implications For that and who are they teamed up on Because at some level this goes much bigger The global thing has already been done Whether it's So I'll leave it there Well in the time that we've got left What I'll say is that We're talking If the basic premise And I believe this is a basic premise That Roswell was real And that we recovered some craft From elsewhere And that it proved that there was life Out there Which I believe Then if somebody's got here And there were bodies then We've had that information I think logically we would all try to Retrieve the machinery And try to make it work And the country that made it work Some people would say that's the United States And why they've been so powerful However, so my Basic role is I've always believed From my own childhood sighted That there was life out there I had no prior interest but then after that It's a little catalyst in me That then came to full fruition By becoming a researcher In January 2002 When I went public with my database So I'm now 21 years into my public research But it stayed with me I do believe that we're dealing with something That's probably extraterrestrial But the more I've got to know about the subject I now believe we're dealing With non-human intelligence It may be ultra terrestrial It may be interdimensional It may be a combination of all three But based on the abduction phenomenon Of which I do believe Is real And that most people are sincere That and what Particularly proves that to me That even in the third world People without access to media Come out with virtually identical stories Of being examined and taken aboard Missing time and whatever So that says to me something is Happening there real And based on the abduction There are commonality of speeches that are seen Seemingly Now I have no direct evidence to say That that's real But there's a preponderance of evidence All around the world Something broadly similar is happening On each continent So it says to me that Almost certainly there are Extraterrestrial intelligences Coming here, but in recent years And we look at things like Skinwalker and things like that And other portals And I never used to believe Any of that kind of thing But I think over time with the result Of quantum mechanics That they're saying look there are other dimensions There may well be parallel worlds And so you've just got rather an open mind Now in more recent years Certain people Have said there may well be some Very old Inhabitants of the earth that has Whether it lives in the oceans or wherever They don't interact But they've been here a long time I think that's entirely possible When you go back to the ancient alien stuff I kind of believe all that Because the petroglyphs all over the world And all over the cultures It's the sky gods If you replace sky gods with alien It makes more sense When you think of all the incidents In the biblical people come down And it's eco and all that kind of stuff It makes more sense to replace god With alien And I think people did not know how To interpret it What they were witnessing in those days But I think we do now And so I think it's a combination That we are dealing with Non-human intelligence And that's why I called it that I didn't say it was ET I'm saying it's a combination But it's certainly not human And that's what the book is telling And the 17 incidents in the conclusion All time different people They are saying that this was Not any kind of an exercise Duped on the poor American servicemen We didn't have the technology in those days To do these kind of things To reflect things and whatever Ridiculous They saw different things And they A lot of them were really screwed up A lot of them were physically injured And they needed help Medically And we just don't talk about it And I kind of did the book For the other people To say look There are still a lot of people I think out there Who have never gone on the record But as time goes on they're going to pass away We need to capture that testimony And the book is there to say look The narrative is wrong TV is wrong But unless I can reach the right audience Only a few people are going to know That I'm out there and wrote this book Because these people aren't going to tell you about the book Let me Let me ask the same question In a different way And that is What role do you think we have To play in the disclosure As you outline Because again let me frame this up What I read non-human It confirms for me That I absolutely cannot trust My government in any way shape Absolutely And that Lou Elizondo I bought Lou Elizondo Just like everybody else for a year And then he was outed As Intel Dodie His lie was even bigger He runs that game That horrible horrible game And then he says Well it wasn't even about ET It was about the stealth And then years later we find out Of course it was about ET So this latest round is just the same thing I don't see how anyone could Really cozy up to intelligence And assume that they're going to tell us anything So then I guess the question is What can we do because I think a lot of people Rightfully say We really have to Do something radically different In terms of how we approach this In terms of how we collectively Organize how we Make contact or make ourselves I forgot the slogan that you said Prepare for contact but for God's sake Let's not talk about intelligence agencies As playing You know it's like the old expression Governments should fear their people People should not fear their Governments And we're in the opposite situation And we've just gone through the last three years Where they've given us the warm up exercise For how they can lock everything down Run everything And it's hard not to assume That this latest disclosure Isn't playing a lot of those same Notes over and over again In terms of you think You think that was bad You watch what we can do We're controlling Because we have to control it Look at how big this thing is Well they're doing a very good job Of the mainstream media at the moment Because they're still not giving it attention But I have thoughts on that And I guess We're going to have to wait and see But I can't see How the momentum That is building up at the moment It does feel like Something is happening momentum wise And Tim Burchett Is confirmed that there is going to be Some kind of a congressional hearing With witnesses by the end of July So they'll squeeze that in Quite what it'll entail The first two congressional hearings are a real Downbeat, poor affair And what it showed was That basically The Pentagon don't want this to come out Arrow is not the office To bring the information out to the public They are I think Not wanting this to come out But I think That Grush's credentials are so good If you think about That he was able to brief the president Up to that level He's got a higher classification Than all the people in Arrow So why would Arrow know They're not at the right level If he really did give a test Me for 11 hours as reported Then he must be pretty good Because after 10 minutes Out of it So the fact that he's done that And a month later nobody's laid a glove on him yet And apparently In the woodwork Senator Rubio said That first-hand witness testimonies Have come forward to back his claims Now that's where the skeptical argument was Ah well he's only hearsay Yeah but he's hearsay that said That's the program, it's called this It's ran by him, it's based there Now if he's done that for 11 hours That's pretty good And if then people have said Well I was enrolled in that program And it is based there And I've directly had involvement In reverse engineering Which is entirely possible based on what people are saying Then there's a real problem And I think the Pentagon don't want this to come out They want to control it And are still fighting And I think this stems back to the 1950s There's always been the elements Within the military who say Who fall behind the intelligence community That have basically hijacked governments And said we're in control really We make the decisions really You'll do what we say And I think there's been this Infighting For donkey's years But I do think now there appears to be A possible mechanism For something to happen Quite what it will be I don't know But if let's just imagine a scenario It does happen I think that at the point That Grush Is backed up by first and High level military Officials Government officials who say I've had direct work involvement People are not going to be satisfied with that They're going to say alright that's pretty good But we want to see the proof The only way you're going to Convince 95% Of the world who thinks it's bullshit Is some kind of proof We've heard this talk of a 23 minute video taken by a pilot In Clear daylight and there's an object Sat right next to his plane For 23 minutes And it's a bullshit talks about that Well I think that's what needs to come out To say look this ain't Russian This ain't China We're dealing with something that comes from elsewhere Wherever that elsewhere is And I think that could happen I've said for many years that At the moment there are a number Of bricks coming out of a dam And the water pressure is building On the central point of the dam And it's getting bigger and bigger As more bricks come out But at some point there'll be a critical mass That dam will burst And then you're into discord And it'll be 24-7 Every news channel Like a terrorist incident Like Covid kind of thing It'll be news all time And then you're into a new paradigm Then there's going to be a lot of public anger Then there's going to be a lot of media anger Because most of the media Have been duplicitous In covering this up at the highest level But not at the ordinary level Most people are good people But I think there'll be a huge backlash If it turned out that Indeed ET was real And it's been here for a long time And the Americans pulled it up Against the American people Against the military, governments And also the media How do you deal with that? Well to me I've always thought Of South Africa and the apartheid regime You should have Truth and reconciliation hearings As a way of just saying I was involved in that program I couldn't talk about it Yes we were dealing with this I lied, I was a disinformation expert Put him on the stand and say Okay you've given your piece Go on, we don't send you to prison We're not out there to shoot people But just admit your part in this story And let's get the story out there Because it's the biggest story If real for humanity Everybody will say That as and when and if Contact with a non-human intelligence Acknowledge universally That it will be the most profound moment In human history So it seems like we're on the brink of something I hope I'm right, I hope I'm not dreaming this up But it does appear that there's momentum And there's a mechanism To maybe make the breakthrough And the mainstream will only Take it serious At congressional hearings When first-hand witnesses Like Robert Salas will go on Because I think there'll be lots of hearings And Robert Salas will say Yeah I was in the missile bunker 80 feet underground and then 10 missiles were shut down The American public have never heard this You go to your full documentary 95% of the world thinks it's rubbish This is the biggest cover-up I think in history The whole of the last 7,500 years All the history books will need to be rewritten If this is true And there needs to be a mechanism To deal with the anger That will come from it Because people have been lied to all their lives People have lost jobs, people have been ridiculed Some, you know People have taken lives and whatever So that's where we're at Whether it'll happen, I don't know how to help it does Because whatever happens I think the public have a right to know If there is that content Absolutely Love the optimism Wish I could share it with you I'm an optimist I hope it comes out that way I hope we can turn back the clock To days when that is possible And maybe we can You make a good case I think When Eisenhower gave his speech About the military-industrial complex He said we must guard against The military-industrial complex And I think he was probably the last president To have any real Handle on the intelligence community And at that point there He was maybe giving you an inkling That would last to the intelligence community That's I guess For a lot of folks That's where the optimism wanes a little bit Is like they've had the reins for a while Hey, this again is Fantastic Gary, thank you so much for doing this The book that you're going to want to check out Nonhuman, The Rendition Force UFO Incidents 17 of them You will be blown away And We've got to make sure that we support Gary in any way we can To get this book out as much As much as possible It's a Really is going to be paradigm-shattering For a lot of people And especially folks Who know a little bit about the case Because that grounding is fundamental If you thought you knew the case Forget it You don't Perfect way of putting it Gary, thanks again You're welcome, thank you very much Anytime The one question I tip from this interview I think has to do with the part At the end where we kind of Disagree, I mean he's just Over-optimistic about the chances That these people who as he reveals Have controlled Twisted, manipulated Leveraged in every Extent this information That he reveals in the book That they would now somehow Come clean or that to whatever extent They're going to come clean Out of some agenda that isn't Provealed to us I'd like your opinion on that I think you've got mine, so Let's hear what you think Alright, I guess that will do it For this one, until next time Take care, bye for now