 Hello, welcome to the Donahue group. We're so happy you could join us. You know when we taped our last show I did really perfunctory types of introductions, and so let me start with Ken Risto First of all, I would like you all to note because there may be some questions for our audience at home His heart is not bleeding. It's just a little a little stain there So if you we're just going to call attention to it so that nobody has any serious questions No, it's just ink. It's very professional. It was actually at work today. Yeah, so involved in my work Leave no pen behind I Ken Risto is the Is not a simple social studies teacher no no by no means he is the social studies curriculum and assessment development coordinator For the Shuegan area school district I wish I wish Pineski has been at the University of Wisconsin Shuegan campus for a good long time and 38 years 38 years really so 39 years 25 for me and he only looks like he's 45 so it's a it's a it's a good thing young Cal Potter former state senator former high school teacher former assistant superintendent for Libraries at the Department of Public Instruction, so it's a glorious group me. I'm a lawyer And so this is fun for me, and we're talking today or in this episode a barrister an esteemed barrister talking about state issues and But before we do that because I forgot to mention this in our local segment Bill Wangeman had a great article about Jerry Donahue in the Sunday Paper if I am not mistaken and just a local boy Jerry Donahue. His dad was one of the best known Real estate surveyors and map makers in Sheboygan County still has atlases that are state-of-the-art for people who do real estate law in in the county But former teacher Ron Glaser Called me and said what is it about Jerry Donahue and DNA? Well, we did a little bit of research and found out that Jerry Donahue's son Jerry Donahue born in 1920 was one of the along with Watson and Crick Crick a key player in in discoveries related to DNA and And when Crick and Watson got their Nobel Prize They they acknowledged Jerry Donahue's huge contribution. I did have some fun doing a little bit of research Google Thank goodness for Google and so just a local boy who did very very well and Unfortunately, I think died of lung cancer, but while he was chair of the Department of Chemistry at UCLA I think but in any event way to go Sheboygan and the Donahue was spelled correctly. So that's the important piece of it Well on to less another success story. Yes, there have been at least four or five in the history of the world. So Seems to be praise. Yeah The state budget now Journalist don't have one Don't have one next issue. Well, we ever have one issue too. Don't have one But the bathrooms and the governor's mansion are getting a use that they haven't gotten in quite a long time The governor is holed up with people there closed-door sessions. He's back The governor is back back from well. He was Overseas. Yes, he's back. No, he is back down and that old budget, you know This is I thought I actually kind of a brilliant political move for Doyle to step in and try to To save the Republicans and the Democrats from each other Tom Paneski. We were talking about this a little earlier No state budget, but fundraising is in full swing The Wisconsin democracy campaign tells us that our friends in the legislature have wasted $17.2 million because they Haven't gotten the job done that they were supposed to have gotten done July 1st your thoughts Will we ever have a budget? Where does the 17 million come from? I mean, how do they waste it? they they just took the the budget that the legislature would have for a year and Divide it by four, which is 17.1 million That was the methodology a little bit like the mayor saying we're not going to have a tax increase The Republicans said we're not going to have a tax increase and the Democrats proposed a huge tax increase So they're at loggerheads. Thank goodness in the long run. I think the our state not like other states can continue some other states like Michigan had to close down because they couldn't Reach a budget and then when everything closes down They under the gun they have to vote So until we settle our philosophical differences, we could continue and for you know It's going to cause pressure on different agencies, but I think maybe we need to reorganize And that could cause reorganization. We have so many levels of government village city County at one point it was proposed to kind of you know Get rid of some of those levels and blend them into maybe just a county government and maybe a city government That's it. No instead of but with all these levels of government No wonder Was that the kettle? Was that the kettle commission? Yeah, that's the kettle commission that you're referring to I think it was Was it talked about consolidation? Solidation maybe you know again we you know and even we have taxing agencies the technical schools the school districts We got we got a lot of tactics districts sanitary districts. Yeah, the Milwaukee. It's just so many Yes, so well, you know just puts pressure on a lot of people we just continue People love their town governments. I know you go to the town of lima You can actually talk to your you know to the guys that are sitting behind the table and they're actually listening and I think People love their government here their own Specific levels, but what we've got is a Republican Assembly and a Democratic Senate Surely there have been those problems in the past and it hasn't led to a complete impasse You know what I think this budget impasses less than for philosophy Then it is trying to expose the other party as being incompetent Posing for the next election in other words the Senate being now Democrat is a completely Rubbing the Republicans the wrong way because they had controlled the Senate for the last couple of years and they want to make the Democrats seem like they're having immense tax increases when they're not suggesting in reality Anything but mostly fee increases including the health care plan, which is it was rolled into this But they're not talking about a sales tax increase or an income tax increase They're talking about a lot of fees and many states fees Finance much of state government making the people who use the service pay for the service That's not something that's unusual So when you look at the rhetoric so many Dollars per person the tax readers going up. It's more or less trying to paint the Democrats as being People who are not friendly to the average person's pocketbook and they're all staging this Month week after week month after month because they want to make sure that every man woman and child in this state hates Democrats But the problem is you've got school districts and you've got Municipalities and all kinds of folks who ought to have shared revenues and school aides and all the things that are in that budget Taking care of by the people who were elected to take care of it And the problem with the governor calling these kids in to his mansion and saying let's let's Resolve this is that they're going to have to resolve it anyhow in the legislature and you might as well do it now Then later and so it's really totally irresponsible for the Republicans to say well The Democrats can pass school aides or shared revenues or any little part of that budget and solve an immediate Major crisis, but the rest of the budget shouldn't even be tackled That's a bunch of baloney that whole budget could be settled and should be settled in what the Republicans have to realize Is that they do not have the Senate? They do not have the governorship They only have one-third of the equation and when you're only one-third of the equation Sometimes you have to sit down and you have to compromise. That's the way it is when I was in minority I wasn't in 95 session so we had to sit down and we had a compromise because we knew we didn't have the votes and Sometimes you have to go with hat in hand and say we're gonna have to settle this because I know you guys control The process I know you you you can call the shots, but we're willing to sit down and see what we can work out That's what happens to happen, but it's really on the basis It's politics trying to paint the Democrats is so averse that the next go around the governor's Republican The Senate goes back to the Republicans and the majority in the in the assembly goes back to a greater margin than the close Margin that now exists now. That's fine I'm not saying the Democrats don't have the same desire to have majorities But that wears thin after a while because you're not you're taking statesmanship And in public service and throwing it out the window and saying the next election is the most important thing And it isn't to people who are on school boards or municipalities or people who expect Homestead property tax relief there are constituencies out there in the thousands that deserve better from the legislature than they're getting And a speech That was a good speech. Hey somebody's awake here I just thought of I just thought of when the Democrats control the Senate prior to when the Republicans control that I forget Who was the the majority leader? I didn't get sent to jail or something for kickbacks and bribes and everything They rotate back and forth and amazingly enough in spite of their leadership going to jail We still have people who as the the journal Sentinel editorial said budget is stalled But fundraising is in in full blossom. You know, there are outings. There are golf tournaments. There are dinners You know, you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a fundraiser and it's it's interesting to me and someone said other Legislation gets held up. Is that it? They won't do other legislation until the budget settle Well, they've tried to pull out. I mean the Republicans have tried to pull out I mean just other legislation unrelated to the budget Well, no, they can They can but in many cases there are their items that need to have fiscal notes and you really don't It's very difficult to pass an item that is going to fit in the total state budget when you don't have a state budget Okay, I see. Yeah, that's how and state budget should have been resolved in July one. That's the problem All right, everybody's hopped up here. What about you? Well, I'm just well I'm just interested before I get hopped up on anything I'm just interested from an historical perspective was there more of an inclination or an understanding when you were there Cal that You know, someday we're going to be in the minority So it pays to at least find you know to leave a little bit of something on the table for the other guy So that when the tables are turned, they'll treat us the same way we treated them Was I mean when you talked about being the minority Did you have to go two-thirds of the way in that or were there really a recognition that you know Someday we know we're going to be there in the almost 24 years that I spent in the legislature There never was a scenario where the governor at the mansion had a group of legislators to get together It used we had conference committees and they would meet either the parlor of the Senate or the parlor of the assembly Republicans on one side Democrats on the other side and you would sit in your trade And you'd split babies and you'd trade cats and whatever you had to do in order to resolve the issue and eventually If you got to an impasse on something that you simply told the staff put the remember we'll take us up tomorrow Let's go on to the next issue and see if we can get agreement on this And you did this week after week sometimes in order to get an agreement And that's what really should be taking place between these legislators But you've got a lot of particularly in the assembly You've got a lot of people who philosophically think of partisan politics is more important than what they're doing to the people of Wisconsin I mean you can play this game I think up to the time of October and then after October it's hardball because the school boards and all everybody else right who Needs a printer property tax bill has should have an answer and that's when the Republicans At this stage needs to say that we do have to compromise and the Democrats have to compromise both sides have to compromise The health care plan will probably have to be taken out That's it's understanding and there are a number of things in here that you're just going to have to Throw out or compromise on and split the baby and some fee increases are going to have to be agreed to What concerns me? Yeah, what concerns me is because I listen to Wisconsin Public Radio is I don't know if this went on in your day but this negotiating in public Where there seems to be microphones and they're having the conversation the dialogue with the media present And I'm all for open government, but I also recognize that sometimes statesmanship requires to go behind closed doors and Say, okay, you know, I can't get everything I want. You can't get everything that you want I got public, you know pressure groups on my side, you know that right campaign checks for me And you've got the same situation I recognize that but the state needs a budget and what I see is posturing in front of the microphones where they literally are having a conversation with I mean it's it's like the conference committee is almost having the discussion or the the actual Process of negotiation going on in public where in the glare of the camera lights Who's going to you know make that first step and say we got to find some common ground here without looking a lot of that When you did a conference committee and you didn't have a scenario now where the governor calls people in is The majority leader in one house would sit just go off in the corner with the majority leader and the other say What if we did this what if I gave you this and you gave me this right and then they went back to the Table and they kind of looked at each other and says I propose this and the other says I think that's kind of a nice idea And then the other people who were you didn't have a majority of the committee So this is perfectly legal. So yeah, those type of things went in went on without the need for the microphones and so on right but for the governor to have to play Parent here and sort of get the little children into the way into the big house to to get them to sit on and talk I Kind of unusual and I think it's the legislature's feeling by having the governor and I'll start to control things Well, I didn't he's not even perceived as he's not even perceived as a neutral parent in with two kids that are squabbling here So I'm wondering what kind of effectiveness. He's going to bring to that role of Supining some common ground. Yeah, and what I'm wondering is what when When they are in that scenario where you get a Democratic governor and you've got the Democratic Senate And then you have obviously in the governor's mansion less Republicans when that document Which will be eventually a compromised document gets back to that with public an assembly with a lot of these conservatives who? Have been posing for holy pictures and and really saying we're never gonna have any type of tax increase What type of votes are going to be there for that compromised document? I mean that could be another crisis that's gonna be interesting see how many will Really swallow hard and say I guess we need a budget and I will vote for this compromised packet after they have stipulated That they're not going to vote for any type of compromised package I mean, I know we're playing budgetary chicken here, but we've been at the district. We're already now Libby Burmeister today The state superintendent of public schools started telling school districts Don't plan on the state aides that you necessarily thought were coming and we're starting the war game today Yeah war game looking at our budgets and saying where are we not going to spend money? Where we thought we could spend money given that you've got all of your teachers locked in labor contracts Irresponsible they proposed a budget they plan they work together and proposed a budget in the assembly and Disagree, you know and they're ready to go with that budget, but there's another budget in the Senate Which is different. I mean it's the governor's budget. So what happens then there has to be so yeah But it's you know, they're not just holding out for no taxes They said we were going to propose a budget without any tax increases and they proposed the budget It's not like we're just not going to Very I mean they could have proposed a budget with that and they thought it was they could have cut half the budget and said we've proposed this very reasonable budget that's going to save everybody six hundred dollars a year and It's very irresponsible of the Democrats not to accept this all together, but it's they they weren't they were You know while they were playing politics They knew they had to have a budget so they they put one together things though that I want to just touch on if I can The the the health care plan in it in the Senate is pretty comprehensive. It's pretty expensive It really does give people insurance and I'm the lawyer who sees people every week We do not have access to health care there. Those people are out there I see them all the time and it's it's pretty much a tragedy from my perspective, but Do you think that the Senate Democrats are going to be willing to compromise or pull back or is that health care plan going to come out All together in order to make the budget work I think it'll come out, but they're trying to get agreement from the Republicans to set up with some type of Form for that bill to be taken up at it on its own merits or some other type of provisions That sets the stage for it Maybe a task force or something to not to abandon it completely We should get I think a couple people on the show at some point representing the different different parts of the spectrum in terms of Guaranteeing health care access for everybody because I think as we've talked about on this show Ten years ago. This would be called socialized medicine now I mean we realize that there are lots of people who don't have access to health care And that's what they need so so I'm interested because I think the Democrats Plan is pretty comprehensive and needs to be scaled back if You know 20 years from now it may be just pretty normal, but for now it's pretty pretty revolutionary second thing though that I wanted to talk about and we just we don't have a whole lot of time left but as I understand Wisconsin is now the only state left whose budget expires on July 1st that doesn't have a budget So, you know the word you know the goose is standing alone here Would it be sensible for? Wisconsin to put itself in the position of a drop-dead date Like we just like the state of Michigan just went through like the federal government goes through and maybe you can have Continuing resolutions and so forth, but actually draw the line in the sand and say instead of going to the governor's mansion Services are going to stop We're going to kick 1,500 people out of the state parks and Non-essential services will shut down. I mean it certainly worked for Bill Clinton against Newt Gingrich back in 94 and 94 Would that make sense here so that people really had a real deadline instead of just the I mean they have a deadline now in terms of tax bills and I mean things are getting serious But I just wonder if it would make some sense. Well, I think it would bring about A lot of outrage from the public, but the governor was asked this question on News yesterday, and he basically said at this stage of the game The people who suffer are the people who want to use the parks or want to get their driver's license or whatever He says they didn't cause this problem It's the politicians in the state capital who can't sit down like big boys and girls and Settle this issue. He said why should I at this stage inflict pain on people who are disabled or whatever? Their need for government service happens to be and I think he's right The problem I think is if partisanship gets to be too poisonous If the governor indeed does said we're going to shut down a driver Licensure Stations and so on People get all upset and mad and what the Republicans was simply says well He didn't have to do that we can continue on last year's budget And so the partisan politics is well as a dirty governor doing something he didn't have to do So, you know, that's what I'm saying is partisan politics is fine up to a point then it becomes a useless punitive Poisonous game and that's why I think people on both sides of the aisle have to say yes the Republicans do control the assembly the Democrats do control the Senate and both of you folks have to sit down and Compromise you need to have half a loaf on most of these issues Not the full loaf and we haven't come to that point yet We're still seeing people saying it's either my way or the highway and that's that's what I think has gone wrong On a federal level and on a state level his partisan politics has become supreme Rather than eventually saying we do or to the public who elected us to provide a certain level of service and Funding we can have our politics and we'll play the politics game up until October But after that, let's let's settle this issue and that hasn't happened and that isn't happening I mean I could agree with that. I think there also should be a cap on any budget increase a few states have caps and then it's just how do we Order our priorities within that cap because right now we could just one side could go very high and the other side doesn't do anything and But if you had a cap then it's reorganizing priorities So you still have a deadline and then you just have to reorganize what what are you going to spend that money on and There'll be different priorities for different groups, and then you got a bargain and settle that well And of course the legislature is imposed caps on municipalities and on on school districts, but not on itself And I happen I happen to think we ought to I mean right now You're absolutely right the governor has a choice whether he wants to shut down Non-essential services or not and he's going to walk into that trap and who's going to walk into that trap But if you legislatively didn't give the sides an option then on a certain date non-essential services define them as you want to And I would you know Not that I want the days off But I would actually would talk about shutting schools down or one day of the week or whatever it takes to get your budgets in alignment Right, and then you simply say and you and that then people are confronted with the reality that you know We really do want government services and and that will provide the the political unfortunately sadly But I think the reality is that's the only way you're gonna get people to step away from The small and narrow interest groups that may be pressuring to politicians in these locked They didn't go back and say look the public screaming. We got to do something It's a sad state of affairs but I think that's probably the only the only way they're going to get out of budget here is have a gun to their head and I hate that metaphor, but I Think that's just gonna have to happen And I think they ought to think about doing something along those lines by October 1st And I think the public and politicians need to review what a tax is as well I view taxes as things that are inflicted upon everyone the sales tax the excise tax much is somewhat selective The income tax I think the fees that are often increased which is really the bulk of the increases that are in this budget Are in most states very heavily relied upon I had a friend who I talked to on the phone you the Licensed her car in North Carolina. It was $200 some dollars She had to get an emissions test She had to go to a private garage and pay for it by herself And so the total of bill that she had for licensed her car for that year with $300 What is in Wisconsin 45 and you have your car tested over in the industrial park for nothing So, you know, there are states that rely very heavily on fees and when the legislature starts going in that direction I think there there needs to be more Enlightenment I think a more fair play in saying some of these fees are justifiable Maybe lawyer should pay for the license that that they get or a doctor or maybe real estate transfer fees should pay for the I'm just saying that in many cases fees that are increased Substantially are to help pay for the agency that regulates that profession or that activity and Oftentimes to go through a budget and add up all these fee increases and say Like some of the partisan rhetoric that's coming out today that there's going to be a tax increase for every man woman and child in The state of $1900 or something Really isn't a fair portrayal of the debate that we ought to be having about how do we finance government in the first place? And what do we consider as Tom points out to be essential services? Is that a fee well look in the Thompson administration there was an enormous prison building program that was hugely expensive and We now incarcerate about 25 percent more people than Minnesota does and it's very costly That's how we determined that we were going to spend our money in the Thompson administration And highways, I think he was he was concrete the concrete governor, right, right? And So I mean it is tax policy is all about how you order your social needs and what's important to you and so forth So so it's interesting to me I think one of the first rules that we could start with though is to prohibit fundraising during the budget cycle and I think that that is along with public financing of judicial campaigns We won't have much time to talk about that but the state bar of Wisconsin's new president Tom basting is interested in really pushing lawyers to to You know bring forward the idea of public financing even of just Supreme Court races We now have Justice Ziegler who is going to be disciplined in one fashion or another by the Supreme Court Justice Prosser cannot participate in that because he was a significant financial supporter of hers I mean it's just it's a it's a bad system and how and how all of that gets worked out I think I mean those to me are the the issues where people could really start to come together and talk about just a Good public policy a good public policy and as you said there's nothing wrong with partisanship. I mean partisanship is And it pushes Hamilton and Jefferson's glare to each other Exactly and and had it has pushed that process forward so nothing wrong with that It's just that we're just seeing some sort of extreme morphing of it and and it's too bad So we'll have to stay tuned time to leave but thanks all for a good conversation