 I'm James Dusset, I'm from Boudloudeck First Nation and our program is called Reclaiming Our Roads, Land-Based Learning for Urban Indigenous Youth. And I'm Shanice Hache and I'm from Halifax and our program sort of starts, I guess about two, well, three years ago when we got together, number one, number two, two years James moved to Halifax and at the time I was working as a MiGMA Aboriginal Student Support Worker in a junior high and elementary and high school and that was a really important job for me. I love working with youth, it's my whole purpose and reason for existence and I love working with ill new youth especially, right? Like it's just so meaningful. In James's transition to the city, he took a program through Native Council. You want to talk about that? Well, I just think it was a time when you met other people, right? Yeah, I met a lot of disconnected, disconnected ill new people from the city who really looked up to me and seen value and a lot of knowledge that I had that they never had access to growing up. From that, that's really where this program took root. James, like where this stuff was really just like a part of your normal growing up, right? These were your chores and this had been what we were doing together all the time too. I would say James is my mentor too, right? We just do land-based staff, hunting, fishing, just getting out there and I guess you started to see, oh well, this is something valuable that I can offer, right? So we partnered together, we brought James in for a workshop in my elementary school and we did a workshop on eels. Do you want to share about that, how that went? Yeah, it went better than I thought it would go. We showed a group of kids how to skin eels the Mi'gma away with our teeth. We cooked a meal. It was really empowered for a lot of them. They were scared, but as soon as they got past that, you could really see that sense of pride growing in them. Yeah, and it was really cool. So it was like this really awesome experience where we saw a real gap, right? You really saw the gap in the knowledge, right? You really saw that it was a risk for them at first to do it and then afterwards you saw that what a gift it was. It really felt like they had been praying for that knowledge, right? And it was also really great to work together. That was also nice. We hadn't really had that opportunity much to work together. So after that we were like, okay, I think we have something here and we connected with one of the youth with their parents and we asked if we could take them out hunting with us one morning. And they agreed and he was 12 and we decided we're going to go duck hunting. So we get to his house at five in the morning and his mom had had him packed up, ready to go. He was ready to get in the car and ready and eager. Yeah, just let's do it. And we're like, wow, that's amazing. You know, like 12 years old, ready to do it. And that day he put in a 10 hour day. We went out, we duck hunted in the morning, we went hunting, like on a trail, we did medicines, we did the whole thing and he was just so patient and so grateful. I'm like, what a good attitude about it too. And we really, in that one, it started like, oh man, this is it. Like really, how do we take youth out like this? Like, you know, how can we do this in a bigger way? And so we kind of sat on it and thought about, someday we should try that out or we have, we have something special here, kind of this connection of this knowledge and this youth work and this experience. We're like, well, what should we do with that? So we started applying for grants and kind of telling people about the idea. And it kind of developed from there. So we were, we have been fortunate and grateful to have received support from a couple of grants from in spirit and from the province. And then we sort of launched our official official program in September of 2019. Nope, that's now in September of 2018. We kind of took it official. So our official work and our official goal and practice is, like he said, reclaiming our roots, land based learning for urban indigenous youth. And it happens in kind of two ways. So we do offer workshops to the public really, we'll collaborate with anybody. But mostly it's been youth groups. We've worked with Levote violence and different youth serving organizations universities even. So we'll offer workshops, sort of a spectrum of land based knowledge and learning. And then we do the mentorship with a smaller group of youth. And that's really where our heart is in the mentorship, right? So we found we were meeting all these young people or kind of having these experiences with young people where they were having these really great workshops or camps or kind of one off experiences, right? And they do it and everything kind of makes sense. And they have this great experience. And then after that, there was kind of a gap in how they were able to access that knowledge, right? So it's kind of just waiting around for the next camp or the next opportunity, right? We really want it to create an opportunity for youth to access knowledge in between those great experiences, right? And to really like delve deep, right? There's only so much you can do in an hour, two hour, three hour, even two or three day camp. And it really takes time and that generous and genuine mentorship to really learn the skills. And I know you would say that's a big part of your learning too, right? It's like how you know these things. Yeah, just putting in time. Putting in time and having, you know, people really show you, right? And really like allow you to learn. So we really wanted to be able to support the mentorship with the workshop opportunities too, right? They kind of both help each other and they help us have a full a full program. So that's what we've been doing. That's what we've been doing for about, I guess we're on our six month now. Yeah. Our target audience as of right now, it is urban Indigenous youth and our age range is 12 to 25. But like I said, we're, we will work with groups of mixed individuals from mixed backgrounds. We also say that any group with one Indigenous person and it is an Indigenous group to us, right? It's just as important, you know, for one to learn as it is for 15 or 20. Our program is rooted in Mi'gma values because we're Mi'gma. But, you know, we also say any young person that's living on our territory here is our responsibility too. So any Indigenous youth can join. And we try to do things that are seasonally relevant. Obviously, we want things to be as authentic as possible and, you know, just create good spaces and good opportunities for folks to learn. If you can get a kid, if you can get a 14 year old kid out of bed at five in the morning on more than one occasion, it's gotta be working. Yeah, I think and often like how we talk about it or what our goal is or how we know what's working is when we see these kind of things that and they don't feel like risks anymore, right? Like they don't, you see, you know, they're not scared anymore to try something or, or they remember something, right? Like that's the coolest is when they, when you take more than one youth out and you see one of them taking the lead and showing the other things that he's learned. Yeah. And you just see them open up and you and the feedback from their families too is really impactful. The thing about this is like this work is, it's really, it's meaningful to the individual to the youth, but it's so meaningful to their families. Like their families are praying for this, you know, so hard. And so that just that feedback from parents and moms who are working really hard who, you know, maybe don't have time or access to this knowledge themselves and can't pass that down. Like that's, you know, it's really working is like it impacts the whole family and the whole community, right? That's what it's meant to do. So just that they, they keep doing it, they keep, you know, retaining little bits and gaining that confidence and, and just keep trying it out, right? And they're just willing to do it. So that's how, you know, it's working. But we always say it's about when, when we change, they, you know, it changes from a risk to like integral to their, to their sense of self and identity, right? They're probably not describing it that way. But that's how we see it. Yeah. It's hard. It's hard to talk about, right? And it's the thing we think about too, of course, as we're trying to support this with grants. How do you measure success? Well, and we actually, we really, we try to share this kind of idea with groups and people that we do this with too. Like success isn't measured on like how much we harvest, right? It's not measured on how, you know, you know, how much we get out of it, right? It's really, it is, it's measured through like relationships and confidence and, you know, just the willingness to try it over time. So it is, it's definitely more of a qualitative approach. You know, I think we'll, we'll measure success, particularly when we start seeing those, like being able to create those opportunities for the young people that we mentor to mentor others too. And then they're kind of passing it down and they're able to share it too. Like even yesterday, we were able to bring one of the youth that we work with out with us to host a workshop. And, you know, I just think that he, you know, showed up and was willing to participate. Like that was a huge measure of success for us, right? And yeah, I don't know how we measure success really, except seeing young people really be able to kind of start independently navigating the skills, right? I don't think that we ever want to be the gatekeeper of this knowledge. I think, I think we'll measure success someday if we like look on Instagram and like a young person went out fishing without us. I don't think it's successful when they just don't like, they don't, they're so good at it, they don't, they don't need us. Well, they stopped calling us successful. But you know, it's a success is really just about building up the genuine capacity, right? It's not that they, you know, that they'll need us forever, right? We're not under any illusion that that's the truth. So confidence and like, I think it's really good for their health too, right? Like a lot of the feedback we get is like they're really happy to get out of the city for a day or, or they just, you know, they recognize too, that it's a gap in their life, right? And they're really grateful for the opportunity. And it's, you know, and it's, I think it's really easy for young people to be ashamed that they don't have this knowledge. And I think we have a lot of conversations and we put a lot of work into never making them feel ashamed not to have it, but really like just letting them know how proud we are that they're willing to try it, right? So that, I guess that's the impact is like seeing them move past, you know, maybe feeling embarrassed or ashamed or shy about it and seeing them just step up to the plate and try it out and feel good about it, you know? And yeah, and to build that confidence and just be themselves, right? Use are so funny and just, they bring such a light energy and so just to see them start to be themselves and try the skills and find their own things that they're strong at, like that's, you know, that's one of how we've seen young people grow, right? I do identify myself as an urban indigenous person and also work with mainly urban indigenous youth like in my professional practice. So I think, you know, one of the reasons we think it's so important is because there's a real, there can be a real lack of access for many reasons, right? So geographically, right? Like not having access to natural spaces, whether that's, you know, you're just not able to kind of navigate the bus system to get out somewhere or you don't have access to a vehicle, not, you know, being in an urban area, right? You might feel that disconnect from the land as well. I think there's often a disconnect, you know, sometimes from access to traditional knowledge or elders, right? So it's not like you could just go to your neighbor necessarily and ask them to teach you how to prepare, you know, a traditional meal. And so they might just have that sense of disconnection. And I think, you know, it can happen, right? It happens in a different way. You can incorporate land-based, you know, lifestyles in a different way in the city, but it can happen. We do it for sure, you know, we're out every weekend, like lots and lots of evenings. We'll go over and make sure that we're trying to incorporate that into our life, into our meals, into our just like practice and way of being together. So I think it's important in the city, I mean, I think it's important everywhere, right? And I think it happens everywhere, maybe some somewhat informally, right? Like people might have access to kind of, oh, okay, well, maybe my family doesn't do this, but maybe, you know, I know this person on the reserve does it and I can ask them, you know, in the city that might not be an option, right? You might not even know who to ask. So, you know, it's really quite an empowering skill and an important part of your health too, just to get out of the city for a minute, you know, and try to like reconnect and remember, oh yeah, like this is it, like this is where I'm from, you know, and that you can have those skills in the city too. It's really, really important. And for lots of reasons, they may not have access to it, you know, even something as simple as like having a yard and like fixing things or like building something, you know, like young people in the city might not do that. They have a lot of other like very wild skills, right? Like they can navigate like bus systems and like know how to get everywhere they need to get. So, there's certainly a lot of skills and they're ready to apply them in different contexts. So, we're officially partnered out of Heartwood, which is an awesome youth serving organization that I've worked with for a number of years. So, they've been so gracious to us in helping us supply for grants, giving us tips and skills and space and a lot of freedom as well. So, that's our official partner right now. We've also done a lot of kind of work with Lebo violence or love. So, they're another great organization that has invited us in for workshops that have been really special for us and really helped us build what a workshop could look like. We also are in conversations with the Megwan Native Friendship Center as well. They're a great partner for us too, just in helping us too. Helping us to like really build our capacity and know our worth too. I think that's been a really great aspect of that partnership too is just having Pam really look at us and say like, you know, listen, you guys are worth something. So, they're a real partnership for us too as individuals trying out something new. Those are our three big partnerships right now. I guess and then our grants who have supported us. So, In Spirit Foundation and Community and Heritage as well. We have a grant from and yeah. So, to do this full time, we really need to be able to devote our time, our daytime hours, you know, together to work on this. Right now, we do this with two full-time jobs. So, we really need that kind of budget and allowance to really to be able to pay ourselves to really devote, you know, time and capacity to building this up. We would love a workshop space in the city. I think that would just be amazing to be able to kind of create and build and process a game there in a big way. That would be amazing. And to cook there too, that would be great. To do this in a full-time way, I mean, we're just talking to it today to continue building partnerships across different areas, right? Like, we're happy to partner with, you know, any organization that wants to work with us and that we can have a mutually beneficial relationship with. But really, I think we're good to go whenever. If you want to start after this interview, we will start full-time work on this. But really being able to have the privilege of dedicating our full-time hours to this, we'd really see it grow in a really meaningful way. And then, you know, the whole goal is not that it sort of exists with just us, right? We really want to be able to bring other people on to share their expertise and to create jobs and opportunities for the youth too, right? Like, I think it would be amazing to be able to pay young people to harvest food for families and for elders in the city, right? So really, like having that support to pay for people's real time and real expertise, right? That's what we need. Someone with the knowledge, the land-based knowledge, you know, or access to elders that have it, yeah. Yeah, I kind of think James could do this without me. I don't know what my role is. I do think, you know, I think we have a real unique partnership where I do have experience in, like, youth work and, like, developing programs and that kind of thing. But really, like, I mean, I think we both say we probably couldn't make this exist without the other. I think he might be able to. But I think it needs to be, to do it in this way, to do it in a formal way, it needs to be a mix of having the knowledge, having, you know, that real authentic connection to share, and then having, you know, someone that can help kind of frame it into a grantable context, right? Or help kind of create, you know, formalize those partnerships or do kind of the back-end administrative piece, right? So I think that part is much easier to learn than this part. But it helps to have the partnership, right? To have both of the skills. It helps to have two people kind of, even just someone to go back and forth on. But yeah, I think to start anything like this, there needs to be, there really needs to be the genuine knowledge and the connection. And then there needs to be some understanding of, like, you know, general programming or writing or even youth work. But, you know, I think you could do it, I don't know, in different ways. And once you have those kind of, those two pieces, then you need a lot of generosity from community to help you, right? So, you know, Hartwood has been so generous to us and our grants funders have been so generous to us. So then, you know, having those two kind of raw talents or connections, then you need your community to kind of come around you and support, you know, the work. So, you know, it starts with just having the ability to kind of create something, but then you need to, you know, have others believe in your ability to create it. So if someone wanted to start this, I think they would need access to one or more individuals with something to share and access to one or more individuals to help frame it and to help create, you know, opportunities to do it, right? And then they would need to tell everyone they know and then they would need to, you know, really be supported, right? We couldn't do this without, you know, so many people, even people informally in our lives, we're like, yeah, that's really important and keep doing it. And, you know, it takes, you know, one or more people kind of to start it and then a lot of people to kind of help them. It's really, there's a lot of opportunities for success. The program has been a great teaching experience in this first year, but even just knowing like where to dedicate the money that we have to come in, right? Like it's, you know, clothing for youth. The young people in the city don't have rubber boots. Why would they? You know what I mean? Like they don't have warm clothing usually. Why would they? They don't own mittens. They don't own mittens. They don't own waterproof things. Nobody owns cleats, you know, to walk on the ice. So knowing like how much money to dedicate to that stuff, how much gas money, like, you know, we're picking you up or taking them out, you know, 45 minutes away, coming back. Know how much you eat. Oh my gosh. We must have known that, but really like, if we could just get some Tim Horton's gift cards and some Subway gift cards, feeding them, right? Like even going out for an hour or two. It's really, it's tiring work, right? And so being able to feed young people, that's a big thing. Gas and food and boots. That's where all the money's going to in the future. But also, you know, a big thing that we do try to talk about whenever we get a chance is access to natural spaces, right? Yeah, that's really difficult in an urban setting. A lot of the natural spaces are parks, you know, and it's really difficult to practice traditional things, hunting, fishing, gathering medicines when it's either not allowed or there's people walking their dogs. And it's really difficult. Yeah, and it just takes so much time to build that relationship to an area. And so, you know, something we talk about a lot, and there's even been spaces that we've built a relationship with, like as a couple, where zoning has changed, right? And now we're no longer able to use that space in the same way. And so we talk about that and what that will be like if we build a relationship with an area with a piece of land, and something changes with a youth specifically. And a youth builds up that relationship. And if it's taken away from us, it's going to be a hard loss, a really deep loss, right? So, you know, the program challenges aside, like that's a bigger challenge that we're kind of dealing with. The challenge isn't the young people wanting to do it, they want to do it. The challenge, you know, the challenge isn't the money, it isn't any of those things. At the bottom, at the end of the day, the challenge is going to be accessing the land, right? And if something should change with that, you know, we're going to have a real problem. We're going to have a real heartbreak. It's hard enough, you know, just to create all the opportunity for them to actually access it. And so that'll be a real loss. But otherwise, you know, I would just reiterate that the challenge isn't the young people wanting to do it, they want to do it. It's sort of all the other pieces. And it's a great, but it's been a great learning experience, figuring out what works people have been really patient with us parents have been really patient with us, our partnering organizations and people that ask us to come to workshops have all been so patient. So people are patient with us on the amount of time it takes us to reply back to their emails. You know, and in everything else, we're just learning. So, yeah, no, we've had a lot of, you know, a lot of support. So, yeah, you know, I really think we're going to build this vision with the young people who are involved with it and who continue to be involved with it. And we're going to build it up together what it looks like for them. But I think what like what we hope to have someday is a little bit of a home base and a space where we can create kind of workshop opportunities for for use and for the public. And we can keep, you know, workshopping and partnering and and really like what I would love is to create opportunities for young people to be employed with these skills or to access these skills and for like young people to do the workshops, right, like people contact us and we say, okay, yeah, we're going to send so and so out or you know, like really like for them to know the skills well enough and have that confidence to then be able to share it however they want to right like who knows what ideas that they how they want to share it, you know, and and also creating opportunities for young people to care for community. So to be able to, you know, give food to families and to elders to just be able to have like a space for them to do that and an opportunity and an option for them to do that. What would you say what's your goal and your vision? Yeah, that's my goals. Just to have these young people that were taken out, take other youth out. Yeah, that's it, right? James's real goal is for young people to bring him some eels for supper. That's why I mean it. Yeah, that's it. That's his only his his only hope is tired of getting to myself. The understory to this is really just James just trying to get some breakfast. But no, you know, it's yeah, like you said, it's really the goal is really to give the skills out and then like like however they want to use it right that we can help them like that we're helping them. I would love to even just teach young people like how to be self contractors and to and to write grants themselves. Like I think that would be that'll be the measure of success is when I'm like sitting down with a young person to like build this branch of the program like that they want to do, right? So yeah, you know, creating a space to share skills and to let them build the skills up in ways that feel relevant to them. They don't all have to do the same things and they don't all want to do the same things. They don't all hunt. They don't all fish. You know, they don't all want to pick medicines. Some of them do. But we really want to be able to find, you know, one or more land based skills that a young person, a young indigenous person can integrate into their life, whether it's we don't have a lot of artists. We have a lot of artists too who want to be able to create with this stuff too. So it's really like finding the path that works for each individual and you know, whatever we can do to help them get there and see and see where they take it. I think it's important work for schools to get involved with. I don't think it's something I'd want to partner with schools with other than workshops. But yeah, I really think schools should be integrating this traditional knowledge into their curriculum. I think schools should be community driven. I think schools should be community driven, right? Like I think that's the goal. That's the model, right? I feel strongly that this work needs to have a level of flexibility. It needs to have a level of fluidity and it needs to be rooted in community because it always has been. It can only exist that way, right? And that's like a piece that we bring into it with workshops or certainly with the mentorship is like, you know, sometimes you go out and you think you're going to do one thing and you end up doing another thing, right? Or sometimes you go out and it rains and it's cold and it's, you know, it's not always this like romantic idea, right? But that all counts, right? So there needs to be a layer of flexibility and a layer of, you know, it needs to live on its own in a way that I think many schools aren't ready to live in yet, right? Like there's a way that schools exist. That is driven by outcomes and curriculum and a lot of people doing really good work to try to change that and to try to create great space within that. But this needs to have a certain level of community for sure. But I think, yeah, schools can get on board with that if they'd like. I'm ready for schools to join us. But we need to maintain that level of, you know, I don't know, level of freedom. Yeah, it's taught through relationship, Indigenous education exists through relationships and through doing and through, you know, practicing and being and humor and connection, right? Like I do a certain piece of me dies when I think about Indigenous education living in a textbook or living only in a classroom. Like I think it really has to be more relational than that. It really has to exist, you know, a little bit more naturally. And I think Indigenous education exists through mentorship and through community, right? You know, and it's broad and it's anything, you know, I think, I think math is Indigenous education. I think, you know, fishing is Indigenous education. I think it's all Indigenous education. You know, language, of course, is Indigenous education. But I think, yeah, I think it has to be relational. It has to be based on the individual, right? And it has to be based on, you know, what each person needs to succeed and that every person has a role in community. And every person has a role and something to give back, right? And that there's not one kind of way to be successful. So I think it's broad. Anything exciting coming out of that for you? No, no, there is not. Yeah, that's a hard one. Realizing the things that I grew up doing, the knowledge that I hold has value, you know. Recognizing that role as a knowledge keeper and passing these things on, it feels good. What is impacted me? I mean, yeah, I like, I think supporting young people and seeing young people grow is my only reason to exist, really. So, and also just like very much loving this human and knowing and, you know, and seeing your value and your worth and everything that you shared with me has been such a blessing. So like creating a space for you to share your gifts to and to see the impact and to see the impact that you have on young people and, you know, and how they're, you know, especially, I'll say, especially young Indigenous men. I'll say it's a real, there's real work to be done, right, for young Indigenous men. And so to see the relationship that you have with them and how they look to you and how you're able to create that relationship without judgment has been really important and valuable. So, you know, seeing you kind of step into your leadership as well and challenge yourself and get through what I know are big challenges for you has been, has been great. And for me too, like what it's been a real learning opportunity on the grant end, like writing grants and finding money for good work. I feel like a wizard every time I like find a dollar to do something good. So that's kind of the role that I see myself taking in the future too is I try to think about myself like a bumblebee, like I want to like work in a team and like be, you know, be, stay humble. And, you know, I don't want to be the face of anything anymore. I don't want to be in the forefront. I want to really help good things happen, right. So, you know, having a great relationship with youth, being able to support really great knowledge being passed down and myself working on my knowledge too. Like I cut a hole in the ice with a chainsaw yesterday. I'm feeling pretty good about it. So pushing my boundaries too and things that I can do too. So I'm still getting confidence with my skills for sure. But I definitely, I know that I've gotten better. I know that I've learned too. So but for me, it's really about supporting the bigger picture and just helping good things happen, right. Getting out of the way for good things to happen. Buying the subs, I don't know. But the impact's been huge. I'm really awesome to work together and really awesome to just see good things happen. Many tears shed. I'd like to see, like I said, programs like this in schools, opportunities for young students to get out out of classrooms and on the land. I think that's just as important. Yeah, and I really would like to really like reduce the barriers for good people sharing good things to access support to do that. Right. So like, we're the first ones to say that what we're doing is not unique. It's happening on most reserves right now in informal ways. We know of people doing great work and we're just saying like someday I just want to have enough money that I'll just like wire somebody five grand because I know they're doing great things. Right. And they're doing it out of pocket, out of their own time. They're doing it because it's what we do. But it has a real value. Right. So I think, you know, to go back to a previous point is like, I think if you have the knowledge, you should be able to be supported with that without a partnering organization necessarily, right? Like without barriers, right? If people are doing good work, there should be ways for them to access support and funding to do great work. So I would just like to decolonize the work and decolonize the practice of supporting the work. Right. Like if people are doing good things, just give them the money, you know, like and really just like trust that Indigenous people have been doing this for a long time, teaching children for a long time and know how to do this and that they can validate it in their own ways. Right. And maybe that doesn't look like a formal report afterwards. Maybe it looks a little different, but that, you know, people in community know how to do this. And just to remove the barriers for knowledge keepers to share this and for young people to develop what they want to do too. Right. So I think just my vision for 10 years is like just Indigenous people incorporating, you know, whatever it is that they want to in their work. Right. And that they have options to do that and to build their own programming and have support to do it. So we talk about it all the time like, you know, Indigenous doctors being able to incorporate, you know, traditional medicine or like chefs, like being able to use traditional food. That's like another big passion of ours is like really reclaiming traditional food and like reframing narratives about it, you know, reframing what people think of it. But really it's just to like empower Indigenous people to, you know, to be able to do whatever they want to do in whatever way they want to and have support to do it.