 I know what you're talking about, but I don't have it. I can email it to you now. Okay. Okay. And then, Liz, if you can please start recording to the cloud, that'd be great. It's already set. Do we have Ken? Not yet. That's Ken showed up not so far. I don't think I have him in suspense. I do have participation five. That includes Angela and myself, so. Okay. I'm looking at my email. I'll send it right now. Thanks, everyone. I appreciate that. All right. Did everybody receive the minutes and the agenda? Yep. I think, I think I have to actually read the. Read the. The disclosure that she just sent you. Yeah. Okay. I'm waiting for it. I'm waiting for it on my screen here. Do we have any. Ken seems to be looking for a link. So I am going to send him Angela's. I don't know why he would not have gotten that. I got, I got my link today. So that wasn't a problem. Yeah. You should have got it a couple of days ago though. I'm surprised. I think I got it. I got it today and I got it earlier too. Okay. Yep. I'm sending it over to Ken. Let me see if I can open my email again and see if it'll come up. All right. I've resented to Ken. So hopefully he'll be joining us soon. Don't ask me why my computer computer all of a sudden got really loud. Okay. Thank you for all the attachments we got. To look at. Don't thank me. I think that a lot of the work was done by David and by Ken. They did a lovely job with the planning. I didn't see that. Yeah. So I'm sorry. Are there attachments that we should have gotten from Dave and Ken? I didn't get those. David, did he, did he forward them? Or was he? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I'm not sure I got a zoom link for this meeting. Well, I did. All right. So. I did send it to him a second time. So hopefully he's going to be joining us soon. I just got the thing from. Angela. Yeah. I just got the thing from Angela too. It just came through. Script. Yes, it's the script. I got it in two different attachments. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't think it's going to be sufficient. It's basically reiterating the change in the open meeting laws. Due to COVID. Okay. Do you want me to start? I believe you have to state that. I'll be waiting for Ken. It's up to you. I mean, he does have the link. So I hope that he will be joining us. I'm not sure. I think I don't have to send him the link, not you. I can't forward the link to him. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know how to get here. I've got her. Okay. Are you talking to Angela now, David? I am. Yes. All right. Very good. Then I won't bug the bugger. She's my cookie lady. We need to keep her in good graces. She's going to think we don't know what we're doing. She might be right. She's, I hope not. Come on now. Give us more credit than that. It's the technicalities we need help with, right? They're not going to do that for us. Yeah. The latest thing I know. I know. Ken is trying to get in. Oh, he is. So everybody with a great vacation this year? Our stay. Cation. Staycation. Yes. I'm ready to travel whenever. Lee. Your audio is all. What? Lee's audio is all. No, everything's recorded just so you know. Lee is muted right now. Yeah, I muted myself. Okay. Do you want me to start or do you want me to wait? It's up to you, sir. We've got a quorum, so I'm going to start and hopefully Ken will get in here. So let me read the statement pursuant to Governor Baker's March 12, 2020 order suspending certain provisions of the open meeting law general law chapter 30 a section 18 this meeting of the board of Amherst Board of Assessors is being conducted by a remote participation. I'm supposed to roll make sure that everyone's video and audio was working properly it appears that it is. This meeting is being recorded to the web, and could be shown on Amherst media and broadcast on the town of Amherst YouTube channel. I now call this February 11 meeting to 2021, February 11 meeting to order. Hey. Right now I do not see any public participation. Correct. All right, yeah. And I'm going to go on to the motor vehicle abatements that are in the agenda. I think we need to approve the minutes for the January. I'm taking the. Oh, I'm sorry, I did jump it. I did jump it. Welcome Ken. Thank you. Back on. I don't know what happened. Can you see us and hear us. Yes, I can. Okay, thank you. Thank you for being here. I'm what first I want to draw your attention to the January 14 minutes. Do I have a motion to approve those minutes. So moved. Second. All those in favor say aye. Aye. January 14, 2021 minutes are approved now. Ms. Duffy. You're on. Okay, well, I'm going to share my screen because the first thing we have on the agenda is to sign the abatement reports. So right now. We show. Batements in the amount of 16644. This is for 2020. This is for January 12, 2021 to January 19, 2021. Correct. I move that we approve our signatures on. On that set of abatement. All those favor, please say aye. I can, can you see them? Yes, I can. Okay. All right. This is our second set of abatements. I don't think you want me to go through all 35 pages of it. So I've just gone to the summary. Is there any questions on that? Does everybody have a copy of the complete report or? I had 54 pages. Did I get that wrong? No, I have 35. 35. Is that normal for you masters this COVID? No, it's normal. Yeah, that's normal. That many. Yes. Okay. This is for the period of January 26 to January 29. And these are exercise abatements that are, are coming through for our vehicles and the amount of 154 to 30 and 6 cents. Okay. Now on the agenda, it said 152. So I'm just. I'm sorry. 152 to 30. That's correct. Two, two, 30 and 6 cents. Do I have a motion to approve those abatements? So moved. Okay. Second question. Question on this. Yes. Things that they sold or they got rid of. Yes. In many cases, this is a matter of these vehicles have been adjusted or sold or what have you before the, but it looks like most of this is just exempt. Correct. I'm going to send this out to the list. It comes and I don't know why, but they send this to all the state and you mass property or vehicles are there and then we have to obey them off. So we put them on and then we have to take them off. Okay. Okay. So. Yeah. They send them to us in whole. And then we have to remove anything tax exempt. Okay. But they, they have to, I think by law, send them to us regardless of whether they're exempt or not. Okay. We have a motion to approve those abatements. All those in favor, please say aye. Aye. Okay. Moving along. Now we'll go to the warrants. Okay. And the first one for the warrants. Let me get it down to something reasonable. Okay. Can everybody see the warrant that I have up, or do I need to reshare? Yes. I've got it. I saw, I saw it earlier this morning when I was reviewing the attachments. All right. This is commitment number seven for 2020. And this is for 11,459 dollars and 32 cents. Okay. And I'm forgetting now why, why are we seeing these in February for 2020? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. How does that work? Can somebody just explain it? The reason that you're saying them now is they may not have been there on the 2020s initial list. Okay. I am moved to approve that. This commitment of 11,459 dollars and 32 cents. Second. All those in favor, please say aye. Aye. Okay. We're moving on to the second commitment. It's commitment number one. This is the bulk of the excise motor vehicle excise taxes that we collect every year. This is the bulk. Yeah. Motor personal. This is motor vehicle. We have 1 million. For. Actually. Yeah. 1,482 dollars. 2,000. For 244 and 34 cents. Okay. I moved to approve that. I'm going to approve that. I'm going to approve that. I'm going to approve that. I'm going to approve that. I'm going to approve that. I'm going to approve that. So I'm going to approve that. I'm going to approve that. I'm going to approve that. I'm going to approve that, so that's for 24 and 34 cents. Okay. I moved to approve that commitment for 20, the year 2021 motor vehicle excise. Second. All those in favor, please say aye. Aye. Okay. Now we're going to discuss the residential exemption and means test for seniors tax relief. Correct. That's on the agenda. That's next on the agenda. Yes. Well, my update right now would be we've drafted a cover letter and a real rough survey and Liz and David are sort of looking at those and I think the thought would be we'd share it with you guys after we get our input back to them. Okay. I do have the survey questions. I put them on letterhead and I put them in Survey Monkey. And Survey Monkey is a survey that the town has engaged for the planning zoning and communications. So I'm going to utilize that again. Some of the information that we have there is going to be static information that we don't need to ask. The questions limited to the following for the survey and I thought I'd bring them bring them up so that you could take a look. So let me see if I can bring them up for you. I was hoping to send you a sample and Survey Monkey so that you would be able to see it. But rather than belabor, I figured that this would be a little bit easier. Can I understand that you couldn't send those documents to us because it would have been outside of a meeting, right? I think we can send them. I don't see if there's a reason that we can't send them. No, no, no. Yeah, we're in the meeting so sure. Yeah, I'm saying. I think we can look at the documents we just can't talk about. Is that right? Okay. Yes. Can each one give feedback to Liz? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, as long as we're not talking amongst ourselves. Okay. So let me share this document here. This is the survey. I believe also Liz cannot share the feedback she gets from each one of us. Okay, outside of the meeting. Well, how do we modify the survey then? I don't know. When you all see the survey that I'm presenting. Yes, yeah. Okay. And basically this is a modification of what Kenneth sent us. And, you know, some of this information we do not need to collect that that can is suggested only because we do have some of the information already in our database. Obviously unique ID, the address, the type of property so we don't really need to ask them some of the questions, but the big one. I was hoping I was hoping that you could generate that information not have them respond to it. Oh, I see. Okay. I mean the idea is to still mail list everybody right. I think so. However, one of the things I wanted to share with you is the response I got back from Lane Partridge he was the former president of the MAO, the trade organization for assessors within the state. And he said that one of the things that I just obtained it was the voter list. And that was real informative as far as determining who's in apartments and who's in resident rents, residentially owned properties as well. I didn't even think of that. I thought that was a great idea because he said that he did not send out a survey he gathered the information from that list of voters and from the residential exemption that they filed with the deeds that we have. So I think that's the difference between those two elements he had bypassed sending out a survey to the community. Okay, everybody might not that information. We might not have to get that information but other information that we can't get. Okay, causes in my mind send a survey. I mean I guess what thinking more about the survey. Everyone can get input right now because we're in a meeting. So it's important if we need as many minds on this as possible. It's important to give as much feedback right now where we can share and talk about it. Because I've thought of some more things here and some things that we can delete like Liz said so why don't you walk us through it Liz from your viewpoint. Well the first question is, you had mentioned the unique ID the property address the owner of record will have that all information on the survey that goes out to each and every one of these people that receives a survey. ID number what is that unique ID number. David did we want to use the PID or did we want to use the ID number that that is used in munis I was thinking the ID number that was used in munis but the PID number is only like five characters long. Well yeah I think a PID number because that'll be what we're looking for to go back on the vision. Alright so we'll make that. That's a PID number. Because it is specific to real estate. The property address is of course the location. The PID number is on my tax bill is that right. It's on your property record. That's online. I'm getting a survey in the mail on where do I find my PID number. You would look you would see it on your property record. This will be on your survey already to get it. I was going to say I was going to say it's going to be already populated. So folks question what that is. Well I'll spill it out. Obviously we'll make it property identification. Yeah. And then they can relate that to their tax bill. And how do we how do we get how do we motivate people to turn this back in again. I got my I got my town clerk sensed this week. And I was threatened with being taken off the tax rolls on the front of the front of the thing. I turned it around. I don't get your attention right. And I turned it around immediately and sent it back at the same day. Okay. Which I assume is something is the kind of thing that we're looking for here too. Yeah I mean this is going to determine whether or not. So how do we motivate people. What is it that we're telling people about the purpose of the survey. Yeah. Good question. Yeah. That should be on the cover letter that can provide it gives them a good idea of what's going to happen. Yes let me bring up the cover letter. I have to say the motivation would be. You're saving tax dollars if you fill this in the back. Right. Yeah but potential right. Let me share the document that they that. Ken gave us for a cover letter. Okay. I struggled with it because it turned out to be longer than I thought it would be. But you know what getting your, your, your thoughts on paper first was a good idea. So this is the cover letter. Can everybody see that. No, not yet until you blow it up. Yeah, there you go. How's that. I'll get it up to the top first. Okay. So we'll obviously populate that with the name address and so forth of the person that's going to be the recipient. I'm not going to narrate this for you. Would you, you know. Yeah. Are we going to approve anything today? I think it's a matter of sharing the information and then having a chance to digest it is quite a bit. Okay. So can I distribute this richer to the, to the group? I can send it out to you right now. Yeah. Rather than having you try to see it online and. If you send it by email, the way Teresa sent stuff to us, I think we can look at them. All right. Then I will give Teresa the information and make sure she does it through that process that she's been giving you the agenda and so forth. That's good. This does look like a long read for a lot of people. Yeah. Is it more than, is it more than one page? Yes, it is. Yes, it is. It's actually. Pages, but not that bad. A lot of it was taken from David's right up and Liz right up in the classification. Okay. Yeah. It's a matter of putting it out there so that everybody can truly understand it. And short enough that they'll respond and read it, read it and respond. And part of it was thinking two letters, one to the owner occupants and one of the non owner occupants, including commercial. But then I looked at it and I said, well, maybe we just do one letter to vote everybody. And modify the survey so you only complete certain sections, depending on your. An owner occupant or not. I like the idea that you also said to jump to a certain section. If you answered yes or no. I think it's a good idea. I think it's a good idea. I just want to have some, a short blurb in the Amherst bulletin about what we're doing. It's not a bad idea. What do you think, gentlemen? I think Liz, you have to run it up your chain of command. I will send out anything. Yeah, I'm sure that all has got to tell the council what's going on here. So they don't get blindsided. Yes. And then beyond that, I'd leave it up to Paul, but that's a good idea to suggest. I think you're going to have to leave it up to the council. Yes. What's the next date for getting this out? Well, Go ahead. When's the next board meeting. March 11th. If we can finally said March 11th. I don't see what we couldn't get it out by the end of March. And the reason I'm saying that is that. I've been working with Mike. Warner. And I know I have every parcel. Every. Every residential parcel. So we've got over 6,237 or something with them that begin refining because we're not going to send Barry Roberts a letter for every property he's got. We will send one to the owner and let him work with us from there. I don't see the point in sending everybody or every parcel. We certainly have to send it to everybody. Yeah, only questions. Some of those surveys. We're seeking information about each parcel instead of just each owner. Well, I mean, if you want to do that, that's fine. We can do it. No problem. We just put them all in one envelope and they can tell it. That's a good idea. What I'm trying to keep in mind, gentlemen, is that we are sending the expense request form to those multi unit property owners. So the folks that have four or more units will receive a survey this year very shortly, that's going to ask them, you know, their tendency. So maybe we want to ask them about some of their tendencies since I've got to send that out as to, you know, the year round tenant versus the seasonal tenant or the student tenant. We don't have anything to them already. We don't have to ask them in the survey more stuff that you've already asked them for. Well that's the point I guess is, if we're going to be sending it if it's less than four units though this would be an opportunity to send it out to those folks. So folks that have less than four units are usually going to not going to get the income and expense form unless they have a lot of units like the Jones and so forth. So I'm going to let everybody modify the survey to delete stuff that you're already getting on the bigger projects is one of the things that we had on the initial survey was the number of units is that appropriate since we're going to be sending out. You don't need that if you already have it. I put it on there I was also asking how many units are student occupied versus not occupied I was hoping they add up to the total units. Okay. Do you see the survey, gentlemen. But I think all this breakdown by units you're probably getting that or you already have it so you can take all that out. Well not necessarily I mean some folks make a closet into another unit, you know, so it's, it's the under under four bedroom that is going to be something that usually doesn't get the income and expense form. And so Liz, why don't you start at the top and just if we're back to the survey. Sure be glad to. So this is what I have for the survey so forth we'd have the, the property identification number the property address and the owner of record. We're asking, do you did you owner occupied the property as your principal residence in the town of Amherst January 1 2021. Is that correct. Do we want to do it as a 2021. Yeah, it's all right there okay. Yeah, because the criteria is like, isn't it you have to be there a year or something like that. That's the reason I was asking. You have to order before July 1. So do we want to change this to July 1 2020. Honestly, I believe it was January 1 because people may sell between January and then we get notified by the registry if they send out a new letter. Okay. I assume we're going to continue this. Once we get a deed we're going to send another copy of the survey to the new owner, just in case they are not over or they are. Okay. All right, so it's saying in section one did you file a 2019. First of all, if you answer no to that you go you skip all section one. Right, so if you if you did answer no I'm not the principal resident of that property you're going to go all the way down to section two and skip all the next section. Does anybody have any problem with that. Nope. Yeah. And then as I said I'll be sending these documents to you so you will be able to get an opportunity to comment on the feedback. And I did plug this all into Survey Monkey. So I will send you a test run to see how it looks and see if you're getting the questions clear and know what to do as far as a response. Section one did you file in 2019 Massachusetts income tax return yes or no. Is the parcel owned by a trust I think we can eliminate that question because we will have that information in the transfer of title. Okay, as long as you're sure your data is accurate. Yeah, I should be I mean it's right from the land records and that's the authority for who owns the title. Okay. So I think we can get rid of that one. Now it says here list the location and type of other real estate owned by you is that really necessary. So every parcel. Okay, so really that's, I don't think that's going to be necessary. Every parcel or every improved parcel. So every improved parcel will receive this. So rather they have vacant land it's not going to be relevant. Correct. Right. Okay, so let's get rid of that one. Have you received a reply for any. Wow, what's that from anybody. I don't know if they own two properties they can only they can't you know if they can't claim the owner occupant of the second property to right. That's true. That is true. However, we'll have a list of those properties so that we can win them out so maybe asking them that that question might be more confusing. I don't know. Okay, so you do have a list. You don't have a list when they own property somewhere else in Massachusetts though. That is what we don't have so asking them if they have property outside of the town of Amherst that would be the question so have you received or applied for other residential exemption and or homestead and any other state city or town I think that's perfect just the way that that will that will probably covered if they have property somewhere else. Okay, and then the others the secondary to that same question is if yes what city or a state or cities state. So I think that's good. Good question to leave in there don't you gentlemen. Is how many of us have that dream house in Florida with my sister huh. All right. It's too warm. Why do we want to know that. I guess the question is is whether or not they're already receiving this exemption and another can't get it to right okay no double hitting. Yeah. So the section to is type of residential property. I don't necessarily think we need that type of residential property to you David, because we'll have that on the property information that we have on the car. We already have that on the property card. So I'm wondering if we need any of us do we. Well I'd like to have the permit number just because that's not a problem. We can certainly leave the permit number. I like to have them jog their memory if they don't have a permit they should get one. I guess my question is what would you like to leave into this section. I think you can probably take out the property type if you're. It's not it's entirely up to you I don't want to take out what you think might be critical. No I just I took a lot of this off the state form that's required every year to be filed. Sure. So but I take that out. Okay, so this section here where it says single condo and so forth residential. But you want the permit number. So how should we phrase this question. Just take out the type of residential just. So. How would we want to phrase this is what I guess my question. Just like it is a Amherst rental permit number. Yeah. So just leave it as is. How about total number of units in the property that's probably not a bad thing. Right. I like that. I don't think you need to break down anymore. If you got good data on that. Do you think we should leave that alone. Yeah. I don't think we should leave that alone. I don't think we should leave that alone. Okay. Because I'm not. Like I said, that works right. Yeah. Units least to university and college students. Do we want to change that maybe to non-residents. Because it might be. It's good. Well, I was coming at more from who's going to university and college versus whether they're a resident or not. Okay. So you don't think there was any others that would fall into that classification other than university students. No, I'm sure there's some. But so is there another question. I'm just, I'm just wondering is units least to, should we add non-residents. I don't think we should. I don't think we should add non-residents to that group. University slash college slash non-resident. That's what I was thinking. University slash. That way we're kind of catching them all. Slash non-residents. Help me out. What, what's the non-residents going to capture? What are we trying to capture there? Well, in some cases you have more than just students that are populating these, these properties. That are non-residents. I don't know how many of them, if we just list that it's a university or college student. Help me out. A resident is somebody that's registered to vote. What's a resident? Register to vote is not necessarily the only category, but also declares their state income tax to the state of Massachusetts versus another state. Or another community for that matter. Richard. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Is your attorney opinion on this one? Does that sign discriminatory asking me to university college? Yes, it does. Thank you for asking. That was kind of like my, my way of saying that, but if you say non-residents, then. It doesn't make it. It makes it more general. Don't you think? I think it's, I think it's a problematic question, but I understand where I understand what Ken's trying to address. I'm not saying it's a non-residents period. That's what I was kind of leaning towards because then you're not scrutinizing one particular category of the population. You know, I don't know. I mean, if you read, this is the old. This is the old. Slippery concept of what is a resident. Well, I think it's very clear what the resident is. If you claim on your tax. Massachusetts, then your residency isn't ours. But the property owner doesn't know that. The property owner doesn't know if he is the owner-occupant. But in this case, we're asking if they lease their property, if they are a year-round resident, or if they are only temporary residents. They won't know. The property owner won't know. Property owner won't know where the taxpayer is claiming residence. So really, we're going to have to rely on the voter list. Wouldn't you agree? The only thing we're interested in hearing is, does the property owner occupy the property? Yeah, I mean, that's really what we need to know, isn't it? I mean, whether there's a challenge or not on the non-owner-occupied, it doesn't matter. I thought your database gave you a good read on that, but you're saying you like to check the database? Yes. Okay. So I think that would be right at the top of section two. Does the owner occupy a unit in the property? Well, we have it right here in one. That's the first question we asked. Do you own and occupy a principal residence in the town of Amherst? Correct. Okay. If he says yes, and he's an apartment owner, he occupies one of the, he says yes, then he doesn't go to section two. Correct. And that doesn't help us get any information about that apartment then. Okay. What's our information you're talking about? We have to send out what we call income and expense statements to all the multi-families, not three families, but four and above. Yeah. And at that point, we're asking them for a breakdown of all the units between one, two, three, four, and studio. So we will be getting that information. It'll be later in the game, but we will be getting it. Well, I guess the question is, can you send that same request to the two-family, three-family, four-family or not? As long as, yeah, but that would just be a verification rather than asking for income, because the income's of no use to us from those. Okay. I guess the question- You could verify your owner occupant if you sent some kind of question to two, three, and four-family the same time you did the whole commercial. I don't know. We have a number of people, I was thinking with the income and expenses here, we have a number of people that have single and under four-unit parcels that they lease. And folks like Jones Properties and W.D. Coles, they have a number of properties like that that kind of fall through the cracks. I was thinking to sending to those management companies and asking for the income and expense from them in bulk, so that could help us with some of them. Yeah, and you could add a question about is the owner occupying one of the units? And that's, they may or may not be able to supply that information. That's the tough one. But that's why I think maybe the voter list is a good way to cross-match to see if how many are actually owner occupied and how many are rented. Would you say the majority of folks registered to vote here if they're residents? I think most people are pretty proactive here about that particular issue. So what we're getting then is a breakdown between people that, from the voter list, we get a breakdown of who's registered to vote. That's everybody, students, older people, younger people, everybody. It's a complete list, yeah. And then how do we know those who are not registered? How do we know how many there are? Or how do we know how many people that are in town that are not registered voters? That's the difference. That's something that would be, you know, an estimate calculation that occupy units. Does the census help? The problem with the census is the last census data was 2000 and everything they have in the census data bank is estimates. Current estimate is we're 39,000 something, we're almost 40,000 people. And that we have a daytime population of 61,000 people. I thought that was interesting. But they, as far as the residents, they say that our residents are broaching 40,000. But that, like I said, is estimated. Yeah. What's the 2020 data? They're doing it now. They've gathered most of the information, but they kind of have an ongoing thing. It's like when a census does their thing in the community, they do different aspects of the census in different time periods. Right now, they're doing the population, the demographics. That particular information is pretty time consuming and it takes a while to put it in. So they're tabulating it as we speak for 2020. Do you think anything will be available by July? I don't see why I wouldn't. The American Survey, I guess, is the standard that they use for distributing the information to the communities. It's the American Community Survey, I think it's called. And any one of you can go on it at, you know, at your leisure. I'll give you guys a link to it if you would like. And that way you can see the statistics. The other one I've got a lot of information from is the one that the MLS uses. It's city data. So if you put city hyphen data, you'll find a lot of information. And it really speaks volumes as to the makeup of the community and the disparity between residents and non-residents. Some was evident right there. Is there any other questions you might have? I can send this out to you all and like I said, some feedback and comments. I'm struggling with whether we do a survey at all. Because the whole intent in my thought was the survey would get a soft data that we can't get hard data on about. Great. That was the point of the survey. And things I was thinking about adding was income household levels. You know, everybody under 50,000 checked that box. Everybody over 100,000 checked that box. Did we have that on the survey? No, I didn't put it on. But I think income data. That's just one of the soft things we need to, because we're trying to determine who's going to be affected. What income levels are they in? Are they students? Are they not students? And if we don't do that, I'm not sure what the purpose of the survey is then. And I'm not sure how we're going to get at that data to tell people, you know, these are the income levels that are affected. Well, I guess the question is, what information can we glean outside of a survey from other sources that's reliable and credible? So, you know, we're saying the voter list is a good credible source. U.S. Census, of course, but it's still not given us the latest and greatest, and it probably won't until July. Everything there would be estimated. And we're sending out the income and expense to the landlords of the rental property. I just, I'm not close enough to know what the voting list, I mean, the voting list tells us who's registered to vote. That's true. That's only half the puzzle, though. I assume that that gives you the location as well, though. She just sent it to me last night. Okay. So, maybe we need to look closer at the voting list, what we can get from it. Yeah. But we can't get who's not on the voting list. We don't know who those are. That's the hard part. This is a matter of how many people participating in the voting process. I think you have a large volume, but it's hard for me to tell. Nine hundred percent. Well, you know, I view this as sort of a Pandora's box that David has been sitting on for years now. Oh, he has. And the Pandora's box is the notion that a residential exemption would work. That would be fair. That would not have unintended consequences. And, you know, Dave has basically held this thing shut for some time now, but now we have sort of entertained the notion that there could be some exemption, there could be some rearrangement of the property tax burden among residential property taxpayers. And now we're sort of in a jam where we have to sort of prove it, that what we have, that the status quo is better than some exemption that we might recommend to the council. And the council has an expectation that we're going to come back with something that answers the question. Yes. Well, if we're going to come back with something to answer the question, we basically, you know, the survey we really need is just who owns the property and who occupies the property. Straight forward. I understand what Ken's looking for. And maybe that's another survey that we have to do. But all we're looking at is, you know, the impact of this is on the apartment complexes has been one of our worries about what might happen to the tenants. But that's only something we can stress to the council and say, this is a possibility. Ken and I have, Liz have worked up a spreadsheet that shows the impact on the apartment complexes by unit, not by a number of beds, but by unit for each one of the 10, 20 and 30 percent increases on the tax rate that we can share with you if you'd like. But that's based on, yeah, that's based on the estimated information we have at the moment. How do you, so you're talking about the impact on rent, right? Right. How do you talk about the impact on taxes that would probably be passed along to the rent? Yes. And how do you, how do you calculate that? How do you demonstrate that? Okay, well, it's a matter of we figure out the, we know the number of units in several of the partials. Yeah. We calculate the tax on the base rate, the base, base tax rate, then with the tax rate would be at 10 percent. We calculated again per unit, the same thing for 20 percent. So we can compare the unit tax on at the base rate of 2182, and then at the next one of $23 and then at the next one of $23 and then next one of $24 and next one of $25. Yeah. And you can see that isn't each of them. I mean, I'm happy to say that along with them, do you, Ken and Liz have it, but we can send it to you too as well. Okay. I mean, my assumption is, is that if you show that there's going to be an adverse impact on rents, that pretty much shuts, that pretty much ends the discussion, I think. Oh, definitely with that version, because they are going to take it. That's a definite. That's a given. That's no question. Yeah, that's, that's, there is very few landlords that rent, residentially or commercially that do straight rents anymore. So most rents have a clause in them that if there's an increase in the utilities or in the taxes that it's a pastor to the tenant. So my question, I guess my question here is what is it that we have to produce for the council later this year? What is the information that we need to produce? How many people would benefit from this program and how many would be impacted negatively? I believe is the, the, what we're charged with. Yeah. And we, we will have. That sounds very difficult. It's not, it's not, it's not only how many it's at what level. We have, we have that to control part of the spreadsheet. Oh, it's who is affected though. Right. Who based on the income level. Right. Millionaires affected or is it affordable for people affected? Or is it, who is it? Well, there is a means test. I mean, there is, you know, isn't there a, a lid to how many people, how well, I guess it happens basically on that threshold that David pointed out, that break point even. That's really where it comes in. David trying to figure out. Well, that's not a means test. That's a property value test. It's kind of like a, you know, if you're at a certain point, you're just not going to get anything out of it. It's going to go. I mean, without, without, without getting into the details, if you take a look at the exemption that we're going to consider later on in this meeting, I think that's a classic case right there. The exemption that the person that we're looking at, who, since we're not an executive session, I mean, we have people in town who have, you know, relatively expensive houses who have, who are of limited means. So. Property rich and, and. Well, that's, that's not based on fact. I mean, that maybe, you know, some individuals that way. There's not a lot. That's what one of the questions we're trying to answer. When was the last time that million dollar house sold? But you, you don't, you don't get the answer unless you ask people about their finances. That's to some degree. Yeah. And I just don't see how, as a government authority, you can ask those kinds of questions and expect to get complete answers. Okay. Well, that's part of what you can go back to the council. That's true. And we can't answer your questions. Did they actually ask us for the impact on an income basis of people? Not directly. What they said, I mean, what Andy said, you know, in the past time we reviewed this, we thought a lot of people, older people would be affected because they owned the higher price homes. Right. And so that's what we're all going on. But that was how many years ago that that was looked at. That was definitely true. That was a long time ago. So, you know, David did a cut and basically the break even is roughly about $770,000 or $570,000 roughly the break even. Oh, is that right? Okay. All right. I keep forgetting what the number is. I thought it was 470, 570. He just looked at it recently. And that's the break even. And then, and then of course the question is at what level as Lee said, what it's five, you know, 10%, 20%, but everybody above that would pay something more. And there are roughly 290 units or parcels above that number. So 290 parcel owners would some way have to pay more. That's right. But then the other thing I consider is how many people are going to be close to that number coming in? I mean, how many people are going to save a few dollars as opposed to the number of people that save $400 or $500? No. And just information-wise, they're only, I was surprised. There are only nine parcels above a million dollars in the Amherst. On the single-family residential, yeah. I was surprised it was lower than I thought it was. There are only nine, but one million plus homes in Amherst. Yep. We can make tens of million dollars plus if you like. It's not a problem. Again, David, that 570 number is... How do we explain that? The great even? Yeah, yeah. What great deliberation. Well, the way of the experiment is that people have to realize that the exemption is a fixed amount. So at some point, the persons of over a certain level are going to be paying more even with the exemption. And the way we've chosen to do that at the moment is Kim and I and Liz have put together a spreadsheet that I will send to you, and it shows you the different break-even points for the 10, 20, and 30 percent. And then, of course, it does not include the non-occupied in that. They all pay more. They will automatically all pay more, yes. Yeah. All the landlords will pay more. Yes. Not necessarily landlords, but... Or their tenants. Anybody that's above that 570. So essentially, is it fair to say that all tenants will pay more? Yes, that's fair to say. No, well, you got to be careful here. It's competitive nature. If an apartment can't lease units, they're going to drop their rent. So it's not just in vacuum here. You know, if all apartments are running at 100 percent, then sure, they'll raise everything as much as they can. Regardless of whether it's passed to the tenants or not, it's passed to the other properties. That's what we can say it was. Non-owner-occupied everything. Non-owner-occupied properties will be receiving that shift from the owner-occupied properties. And I think it only had like 272 when I last looked at the number of people in the Amherst that were taking part in our tax relief for seniors. That's pretty low. 272. That actually seems high. You mean for the ability to do it for the exception? There's a circuit breaker. Oh, I don't know. The state circuit breaker. Yeah, because I got something, but it was an older listing. So I have, I'm going to request the most recent listing of people taking part in the state circuit breaker program. Okay. I didn't see that yet. Okay. So as the chair, I have to keep this meeting moving. So I guess I'm trying to figure out where we're going with this now. I will send you all out. I'm not sure we want to do a survey at all. I just want to acknowledge that when you have a three-member board, it's pretty hard to get the work done outside of the meetings. It's given that we don't get some kind of a waiver for being three people from the open meeting law. So we can't just sit and chat between meetings. Oh, we can have more chats, right? Or not. We're going to have more public meetings. Yeah, more public meetings. Yeah, more public meetings that are noticed. Yeah, we could do that. Yeah. Just so you know, Paul is very anxious to receive the information on this. I was told in my job review that I was not providing the information that they wanted when they wanted it. Well, the question is, what information do they want? Residential exemption information. They want the study done and reported. All right, can I make a suggestion? Thank you. Yes, sir. We at the moment have the list of everything that we believe is either owner-occupied or not owner-occupied. Why don't we take all the improved partial and see everybody that's not owner-occupied, and we send out a request directly to them to verify that it's not owner-occupied, and add that to the ones that are owner-occupied. And that'll give us right away a basis for working off the number we have. And that's the most important thing in my mind at the moment is getting as accurate as we can on who owns and occupied and who doesn't. Okay. So you're going to say we're wean it down to just the ones you feel that are not owner-occupied just to verify. Yeah, I mean, I'm not going to send them, I wouldn't send them out to the land. And if Brian Robert's 20 pieces of partial, I wouldn't send them out to him either. So residentially improved property. Right. So at some point during the game, we will have to let the apartment owners know what's happening so they can take a look at it as well. But am I, you're just going to send it to non-owner-occupied? The ones that, yeah, the ones that we believe are non-owner-occupied. It's basically to verify. Okay. What about the ones that you have as owner-occupied and they're not really owner-occupied? They won't continue to list them as owner-occupied and they won't be. Well, yeah. We're only covering half the group. We're checking to make sure the non-owner-occupied or non-owner-occupied, but on one hand it's almost more concerning to make sure the owner-occupied ones are not really rentals now. Well, and maybe we're back to the point of a type of survey that's just basically a one-question survey. Do you want to occupy this partial? And I think, you know, it's good to, you know, maybe classify in references. Do you claim residency to the state of Massachusetts in Amherst if you can clarify that? Because a lot of times folks will say, yeah, I'm a resident, but they don't necessarily claim their residency in Amherst. And that's one way that we could do it. We're just sending it to the single family people. You could put in there, where did you, did you file a mass 2019 income tax return? Now we'll take care of whether they're. But can I get that information from the state? I don't think so. I don't, good luck dealing with the IRS on the stage. Sometimes I can do it under the freedom of information law. I know I was able to get it from the secretary. If you're going to send out a survey, I just add that one question. Yeah, okay. And so we're down to basically two questions. And the other, the other thing that they, that I was told that we did not do well was the Massachusetts UMass study. Just so you all know where we are at that, we did actually send out forms of list of 41 businesses. And we have to wait for them to be completed and returned. What UMass study? The UMass study to find out what taxable property that may have been missing. Oh, okay. And, you know, basically. How did that request come about? What I had noticed was we had a number of businesses and we did have a number of businesses that had contacted me and said, well, how come the folks at the universities don't have to pay taxes or fill out the forms? So I looked into it and we did find 41 of them. So we sent out forms of list. And if they claim exemption, I want them to fill out the three ABC form. But because we didn't have the monetary increase, they felt that I should have had that information done already. Oh, well, okay. So I'm trying to figure out what we're doing between what's happening between now and March 11th. I think we need to get feedback from Paul and maybe Sean too. I don't know your boss Liz. Okay. Because, you know, if anybody goes out online and looks at the studies other towns have done about this residential exemption. You've done that, Ken? Oh, yeah. There's a lot out there. There are 15 of them out there. Okay. Do this now. And I mean, Lexington probably has, they probably spent 100,000 doing a survey. Wow. Right. Something, it's unbelievable what they wrote. But if anybody looks at that, we're not going to be anywhere close to anything like that. No. Okay. Were there any trends? How recently did Lexington do that? I'd have to see. But the assessor for, let me see. Where is Lane now, I think. And did they reach a conclusion? Lane did the most recent one. And he was the one that said to me that he didn't do a survey. He did it from the information he got from the voters list and from the circuit breakers for the folks that had signed up for circuit breaker. So, Ken, was there any trend and any common thread? Yeah, it's evolving, it was what I'd say. You know, without digging deeper, I'd say, you know, it's either on the Cape where you have a huge rental population, the homeowners want to help somebody pay their taxes because their services are out of sight. Or it's near Boston, where you have a lot of college kids. Plus they have commercial too. Plus they have commercial, help offset it. Lexington actually decided not to do it. And they went on to look at a means residential exemption. And there have been four or five cities that have actually implemented a means residential exemption, which that story is very much out right now, whether it's work in progress. So on the survey, do we want to include what range someone's income might fall in? If we can figure it, if we can find out what it is. Yeah, I mean, it'd be a range saying, you know, I don't know what the ranges would be, but it'd be, you know, less than 50,000 household income. Yeah. 50,000, 100,000, above 100,000, I don't know. So was the Lexington survey asking people about their income? I don't know. It was, you can get out, I can send it to you. It's a long, long survey. Or not a survey, it's a study. It's a report that took a year to do. Okay. The interesting thing is, when I try to ask assessors for their surveys, they're coming back to me and say, well, I didn't, I didn't send a survey. They did it based on those peripheral facts that they had cleaned from voter listing, et cetera. But a lot of the cities did have a study group that came up with a study. How do they do it? They didn't do a survey, but I don't know how they got all the information. So we might be getting it from another source. Would it be fair to say that we have a higher percentage of rental units versus, versus homeowners than other, than other things? Than other cities, yeah. Yeah. We sort of fall in between the Cape and Boston. Yeah. I mean, we don't have any commercial, so that doesn't help us like it does around Boston. That's right. Lexington, when I read the report, I took away saying, here's a really, really wealthy community that doesn't want to do this because they don't think it helps the poor enough. And therefore they want to look at a different way to help the poor. Yeah, which is, which is a little bit where we are, right? Well, the, the thing we have different is that, you know, I'd say 55% of our units, units, not parcels, but units are rental. That could well be. Yes. Looking at the city data, it's leaning towards about 50% as college age students that are in our population. So that would mean that 50% of the people that are here, I would say, would be very much in that category. So if you look at, if you go to city-data.com and you put in Amherst, it'll give you some statistics that'll help you out substantially as far as the population and so forth. What's the website again? It ranges from 1990 to 2020. It is city-data.com. Okay. You go into that website, you'll see that there is substantial statistics and they use these for MLS. That's what this reference source is. How accurate it is, you know, a lot of it's, again, guesstimates. You just said that 55% of the units of the presidential units in town are rental. Is that what you just said? Well, I can't really say that in honesty. It's just the population of people. It does give that population. But I think Ken's talking about units, not parcels. Let me back up a minute. Let's go back to what David's been working on. David, you've done an outstanding job. Yes. First of all, owner-occupied, they're 4,037 units. If you want to talk about non-owner-occupied, they're 2,280 parcels. So number of parcels in Amherst, those two added together comes up to 6,317 parcels. Okay. If you take the non-owner-occupied and blow that 2,280 up. Yes. Okay. There are 3,424 apartment units. 3,000, how many? 424. Okay. So you have to take away 95. That's the number of apartment units, or apartment properties. So you have to take that away and add the two together. So you come up with owner-occupied, there's 437 units. And parcels, the same thing. Units and parcels. But if you look at non-owner-occupied and you blow up the apartments into units, there are 5,609 units in non-owner-occupied categories. So if you had the 4,037 owner-occupied units. Yes. To the 5,609 non-owner-occupied units. Yes. I'm up with 9,646 units in Amherst. Okay. And that's corroborated with the number of units that they said that we have in town. Okay. Number of residents. You divide the 4,037 by 9,646. What's that? That's less than 50%, obviously. Yeah. So the reverse is the truth. Oh, that comes out to be 42%. 42%. Basically, 58% of the units in Amherst are rental. Yeah. They exceed the number that our owner occupied. And so to me, that is, I mean, I'm sorry. I guess I, for me, that's the end of the discussion, at least, about the decision. You know what I'm saying? I mean, so essentially, you would shift the property tax burden onto, well, you would be shifting the tax burden onto the highest evaluated assessed houses plus all the apartments in town. Right? Am I wrong on that? No, you're right. Oh, yeah. That's the point of it. And so to me, with knowing this council the way I think I know the council, the load on tenants ends the discussion. Okay. Well, then we just need to talk to Paul and present that to him and say, let's stop the study. We don't want to do any more. I mean, I don't know. I mean, I mean, no. I think we get to stop the study. I think we still have to give up. Those are real statistics, though. Those are, I mean, I didn't follow it the whole way through, but what you just went through, Ken, but. Some people will ask, well, that's fine. But tell me who occupies those around you. Yeah. It's a question of students. Of students. This is the question of students. Yeah, this is low income. You know, if folks are worried about impact on low income, and that's what they raise the objection about. But it's students. If there's an assumption that students aren't capable of paying more rent. I don't I don't think that assumption carries. I, you know, I just. Well, you look at the rental, the students that are running in downtown now paying $2,000, $3,000 a unit. Yeah. That flies very well. Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead. I'm sorry. Go ahead, Dave. You know, one of the complexes or two of the complexes in town that we have to watch out for is up on State Street, WD Coles, and on Halleck Street, that the ones that run by some way, because they try and keep people for a long time with lower incomes and families. You know, we would be impacting them, just as well as everybody else. Those are the ones I know about economically. Yeah. Well, I don't really care about no square. They just get carried away all together. The rent's up there. But no matter who you. So, Ken, you're saying that 58 percent of the residential units in town by your rough calculation are rental units. David, is that roughly right? I could see that. Yeah. Yeah. I think so. Yeah. Based on a rough what I looked at and David ran all these, as far as if I'm doing it roughly right, definitely more than 50 percent are rentals. So, in other words, in order to give the vast majority of that 42 percent, a residential tax break, he would then be shifting the burden onto the rental units plus the highest. The 290 units above the breakeven resident. So, 290 owner occupied homes plus the rental units. Right. So, 290 are above the breakeven point. Correct. Yes. As public policy, I don't think that will fly, but that's up to the council, obviously. Well, maybe what we should do is get an interim update or a first update to Sean and Paul. Yes. Yeah. They need something because Here's the one, a pager. What's happening, I believe, to Sean and Paul is when they go to council meeting. I like the sound of a one pager. Yeah. They need to provide a response to council is basically what I'm saying to you is that we need to give them a status report. Okay. And a one pager. I like the one pager idea, Richard, because I think you've gotten to the point where there's a basic level of understanding. You can't get to the detail of who's in the rental unit right now, but maybe that's something for the future. See, that's very important to point out. You can't get into the detail of who's in the rental unit. Right. Like I said, the only resource I would have is the voting list. And it's a matter of how many people participate in the voting process. And it's not 100% so we don't know. It is not 100%. It's not to include anybody that's on a voter. That's right. A lot of people count that are not voters. Absolutely. So like I said, it would it would be a matter of how many people participate in that process to make it accurate. And as I said, this is how some of our our assessors have done this in other jurisdictions. I'm only pointing out how they did it, whether or not you want to apply it is up to you. Well, it's now 1216. We're going to figure out what's the action, what's the action oriented suggestion that's being made here. Okay. David, do you have a comment? What were you going to say? Well, I was going to say, I just sent you all of your email. Yeah. spreadsheet. I can bring it up if you like. Well, no, let's not go there yet. That's fine. I just want to make sure I'm sure I accommodate you. Okay. There's five tabs at the bottom. We've got the basic mailing list that we've filtered out everybody who was multiple units and one thing or another. Okay, listen to this because if you don't understand, it gets confusing looking at that spreadsheet unless you know what the columns are. Right. You've got the mailing list that shows to all the people we could potentially mail to that we believe are one property owners or an apartment complex owner who are multiple parcel owner and just the one that he owns, he or she owns. And the second tab is Ken summary, which break it down into residential classes and whatever each one comes to of the LA4. And on the side of that, I will figure out the tax rate and the break even point on columns, p and q. So you're going to see that. Liz, can you go up? But you're up. You need to go up the level, Liz. To the tabs. To this. Oh, okay. They're at the bottom there. They're at the bottom. So you list what Liz is doing. Yes. So this is the mailing list. Yes. Okay. Control home. All right. So here is the headers. Try to make it big enough so you can see. Yeah, I mean, it's big enough on Dave's email, but. Yeah, it's hard to see on this. This is our summary. Is this Ken's summary here? Yes, it is. So I figured I'd hold here. Let me just make it a little bit bigger for you. So this is what we've done there is that Ken asked some questions and I took it and ran with it. He broke down column G as the total assessed valuations with different price of properties in residential classes. Yes. And then I took it further and we did the owner occupied and non-owner occupied. Yeah. And then occupied and we figured out what the exemption would be at a 10% level of the average of the average assessed value for the residential 20% and 30%. Yeah. And then the bottom three columns are what the tax rates would adjust to at those levels. As you can see, the tax rate was 2182 at 10% to be 2331, 20 to be 2501, and 30 to be 2699. So those were, that's the impact on the tax rate only within the residential class of property. And just one comment on column I, the 95 I16. Yes. See the 95? Yes. That's the number of parcels or properties. Yes. When you look at that as units, that blows out to be 5609 units. The non-owner occupied. Yeah. The 95 becomes, if you do by units, 5609. 5609, right. That's on the total number of parcels, which is whatever that is. No, it's on 95 becomes 5609 if you're doing it by units. Oh, the 95, oh, I'm sorry. Four units and up blows up to, okay. All right. Okay. All right. I got that. And so basically this number, 6,317 parcels becomes 9,646 units over here under half. I mean, you know, unfortunately, I'm not a big data, a great data cruncher, but I have sort of a common sense. I have a common sense appreciation of this, which is that it's, you know, just creating an uncertain consequence. And maybe someone wants to disagree with me about the uncertain consequence, but what rents will do? That seems to me to be a pretty imprecise calculation. Well, it's subject to market conditions. Right. So it's, yeah. So it's, so it's like jumping off a cliff. I mean, depending on what you're exempt, I mean, having an exemption is you create a fairly certain tax break for a certain number of property owners in town and a fairly uncertain load on other people. Okay. Can I ask you to go to tab four versus tax per unit? Bring this up a little bit so everybody can see. Wow. Now, tab four, tab four is tax per unit. This is the tax per unit page. Oh, okay. And this is the tax per unit here. Right here. Oh, that's the basic tax per unit of the moment with the standard 2182. And then it goes up per unit now. Then it goes up by about $80 or $108 per unit, but 10% and certainly more than 20%. And then again, it's 30%. So you can see what the impact would be per unit. I don't know what would be per bed. I haven't figured that out, but. So it could go from 1583 in the first example to 1960. Okay. So that's, that's pretty substantial. So that's 300 plus bucks, almost $400 in a year. Right. Yes. That's going to have to get passed on to somebody. Right. So that's how you would read that one as you go down. Okay. Okay. Now, the moment that started by street address. So, I mean, you can change it around to go to low to high if you want and see who's there. But I mean, at Bowling Green, the fourth was number line six with. This is the new apartment complex in North Amherst. No. Oh, no, Rowling Green. Yeah, Rowling Green on Dr. Tyrone. So it's going from 1600 to 2011. Column K is number of units. The number of apartments, Lee. Yeah. Okay. You know, Ken suggested a while ago was maybe something we need to talk to Paul and Sean about. I realize this is raw data at the minute. It's not really fine. But maybe this is something we should take them and let them see what the possibilities are. I'm talking from there. I think they need to have something they can report back to the council. Is there any further suggestions to go from there? Yeah. And I like the idea that you know that the 58% of the units are rental. But we don't know exactly who is in the unit. And that's another level of study. And we are pretty sure that 290 parcels are above the break-even. Right. And that's pretty, that's significant understanding. I guess, Lee, do you think that's a big number or a small number? I think it's a small number. Okay. David, how hard is it to take that 290 and put a column when they last sold? It wouldn't be hard at all, but we have to run the data out of the computer. So just a matter of basically restarting the 290? Well, above break-even to run, I mean run at all, but above break-even, it'd be nice to know how many sold in the last five years, last 10 years. Because if they sold in the last five years, there's not an old folk there. Yeah. Well, it's doable. Yes. I don't know how hard it is. I don't think it'll be that hard. But you're talking about a permanent change. Well, you can change it every year. Oh, okay. Well, yeah. Right. Yeah. But here again, we come to the point is, why don't you give somebody something? How hard is it to take away from them? Can't. And that you can't withdraw from the program once you've issued it. Oh, you can, but it's very difficult. See anybody do it? Yeah, one town that's gone back. Really? Yeah. And that was the town that had two power plants that closed down. Down by the Cape. And therefore they had to readjust everything. Because they're really depending on the power plants to pay most the taxes. Okay. So do we delegate, are we going to delegate to Ken and Dave to present this information to Sean and Paul? Well, thank you. I think you really should have, let's do it. Yeah. Let's do it. Yeah. President Kim. I'm your liaison to Paul and Sean. Okay. Basically what they're asking me is, what progress have we made on these studies and what can we report at this time? And it looks to me as though Ken has done a ton of work. David's done a ton of work. Okay, David. And we got to give credit to Theresa because Theresa pulls a lot of those reports that go into deciding what this is going on. But in order to keep things good with Liz, we need to show them something, right? Right. Liz has to stand and deliver, so to speak. Yeah. I guess I'm like, my annual review was not glowing, put it that way. Okay. All right. Okay. We want to see better results for the residential exemption. Your review should glow the way it does behind you there. It did not. Okay. Okay. It can go up, right? I was pretty discouraged, I will be honest with you. I was not, I was not impressed. Okay. Okay. Let me do a one pager and share it with Liz and then she can share it with everybody else. Okay. Because I do want everybody's input and basically I think what we're going to say, well I don't know what we're going to say, but I'll do it, we'll do a summary of this stuff. Okay. And then I think the conclusion is, you know, without a lot of additional resources, we really can't dig deeper. Right. I mean, right. This is what we can do with what we have to work with. In order to figure out who is living in these units, well, I don't know, yeah. It seems like maybe not great timing considering that we're going to get you a census status that would give us a lot of the information that we're looking for. Okay. A census data for 2020 is going to be published. Okay. So to put a lot of resources towards that in a time when we really need to focus a lot more attention in other areas, it doesn't seem like the best use of our resources. Okay. Have we exhausted this topic because we have one more agenda item? We do have one more agenda item. Okay. Okay. Okay. I'm going to close out of this particular spreadsheet. Thank you for sending that, David. No problem. Okay. And I'll look forward to looking at this stuff. Yeah. Right. And thank you gentlemen for what you've done this. They've done a tremendous job and there's no way I could have addressed it and try to stay with it to get it. For some reason, Ken is fascinated by this stuff, clearly. I don't think he had a choice in this matter, do we? Well, once you got into it, right, Ken? There's a lot to consider. So hold off on the survey list. Don't do anything on the survey. Yes. Okay. But it was good information to find out what is available to us as far as our resources because I had no idea that the town had an account with SurveyMonkey and that you could send out a survey other than just paper. So that's really good information for future reference if we don't do it, but even if we do. And David, if you can get those sales dates for the above breakeven in the next week or so. I can get you them today. That's not a hard thing to do because it's just a matter of adding the sale data to that information. Oh, okay. That'd be great. Yeah, so that's not a hard information. That's information we have within our database, so that's not a hard question. Just add up to David's column there, another column if you can. That's exactly it. Okay. We'll just include another column. So the next thing that we're supposed to consider, is it okay to move on, Richard? Yes, it is. So we have a personal exemption application. Yes. And because it is a private nature, we've sent it to you, I believe, correct? Yes, you have. We have to go into private. We do have to do an executive session for this if we wish to discuss this further. Does that mean we come off the tape? That means I leave you. All right. Good question. And yes, I think I do stop the recording. Thanks, David. Thank you, David. I appreciate your help. All right. So I'm going to pause the recording so that we can go into executive session. Okay. All right. Just the information that Ken and Dave have developed, what's going to happen with that information? Basically, what I'm going to do is I'm going to try to consolidate the information and the steps that have been taken. I'm going to give it back to Dave and Ken so that they can improve what we pre-forward to Paul and Sean, correct? Okay. And we're going to get a chance to review that one pager if that's what it results in. So how would you like me to do that? Would you like me to send it to more than just Ken and Dave? I'll be happy to do a draft of the one pager. That's perfect. That's perfect, Ken. You first and then you can add what you want. Thank you, Ken. Thank you, Ken. That helps a lot. Yeah. Unfortunately, I think that they were of the idea that we'd be able to give them answers sooner than we could. Okay. That's too bad. That's on me. I should have clarified that. Did Sean ever see a draft of the timeline? I did not share that with him until we had a chance to bring it forward to the board. I felt that we should bring it here before we bring it to any other public venue. Okay. I'd like to propose a next date, Thursday, March 11th, please. Okay. Gentlemen. Bye. I'm okay. Okay. Does that work with you, Liz? Of course. Okay. I'm with you. So wherever you want to go, I'm with you. 11 a.m. All right. March 11th. All right. Thank you, gentlemen. Happy Valentine's Day. All right, then. Bye-bye. Have a good one. Bye-bye. Do we have to send you one to Richard? No.