 Attention, Lord Mayor, distinguished guests, ladies and gentlemen, it's my great honour to welcome you this morning to this conference. The Institute of International and European Affairs brought together a very distinguished group of people to discuss some very important issues this morning. But first of all, I'd like to thank our sponsors. First of all, McCann and Sterlidge, Farrie Devereaux and his team have been fantastic in supporting the Institute and we really want to thank them for their support and delight. They're also supporting us today and Brendan Jennings and David Carson and their team and the Sunday Business Post are media partners. The Institute of International and European Affairs for the last three decades has been bringing thought leaders together, has been attempting to influence policy and shape ideas and it's in that spirit that we come together today to discuss issues of great importance to Ireland. On the 10th of April 1998 a historic settlement was reached by the Irish and UK governments which brought to an end decades of violence in Northern Ireland. The Good Friday Agreement was the product of years of tireless negotiating and we have seen the transformation occur before our eyes over the last two decades in Northern Ireland. With Tuesday 10th of April 2018 marking the 20th anniversary of the Good Friday Agreement this conference seeks to commemorate this important milestone by bringing together a panel of former Tishi to outline their perspectives on the 1998 peace settlement and its influence on the current Brexit negotiations. The safeguarding of the Good Friday Agreement has been to the forefront of the concerns of the Irish Government and the European Commission negotiating team in the Brexit discussions. Considering the Good Friday Agreement was brought about through cooperation between the Irish and UK governments within the context of joint membership of the European Union concerns relating to Ireland have been rightly prioritized in the negotiations thus far. This will now change as focus turns to the future relationship but Ireland cannot lose sight of securing the best possible outcome for the maintenance of the Good Friday Agreement once the UK has left the European Union. This remains of paramount importance for the Irish Government and this will require the development of a new framework considering Ireland and the UK will no longer be joint members of the EU. Ireland and Britain are tied together through our shared history, our culture and common language, our political relationship developed from one of dependence to independence and now interdependence in the words of one of our UK policy group members Paul Gillespie. Relations on the island of Ireland have developed as a direct consequence of the 1998 settlement and relations were further enhanced through the St Andrews Agreement which brought the DUP in. The effect of the Good Friday Agreement has had on north-south relations, east-west relations and more importantly the relations between communities in Northern Ireland cannot be understated. Turning to the present and looking to the future there is little doubt that these relations have strained as the Brexit negotiations have intensified. Northern Ireland is experiencing a crisis of its own the absence of an executive in Northern Ireland has exacerbated strained relations as it means that the voice of Belfast is missing from this Brexit debate and instead we are relying upon individual political parties who do not represent the region as a whole. Beyond Brexit and beyond the consolidation of the Good Friday Agreement Ireland will now need to pay more attention than ever to being an active EU member state and this will involve deepening alliances and relations with countries across the union. The second panel of today's conference will examine the dynamics at play in the European Union without the UK and panelists will analyse the political complexion of this new union. The balance of power will have shifted in an EU without the UK and Ireland of course will need to maintain its good working relations with France and with Germany. The importance of relationship with the UK and the EU has been referred to many times but should not be overstated and it is relevant to point out here that our two countries have diverged on issues such as monetary union agricultural policy and indeed social policy. The irony that the UK were in the EU negotiating opt-outs and now out negotiating opt-ins has been noted by others but the Irish Government will also have to be more active in coalition building. We've already seen Ireland develop its cooperation with Nordic and Baltic states this is something that will have to continue into the future and indeed there is potential to build alliances on issues specific areas with numerous member states. A question for the Irish Government however is how to reconcile an increasing focus on the EU 26 with the political energy required to assist with not just the resumption of devolved powers in the north but sustaining those devolved powers. George Mitchell said that the road to the Good Friday Agreement was 700 days of failure followed by one day of success. Even after 1998 as we'll hear later on many hours were dedicated to ensuring implementation of what had been agreed the Brexit negotiations and the absence of an executive in the north over the last 14 months have taught us that we cannot take the agreement for granted and indeed the peace process as it has been rightly termed is just that a process that will no doubt continue for the next 20 years and beyond. In some ways the agreement was fashioned for a multi-party system in Northern Ireland rather than the increasingly two-party system. It was designed for circumstances in which both the UK and the Republic of Ireland were members of the EU. It was designed by politicians British, Irish and otherwise who had prioritized an enormous amount of their time for little gain in many cases and who had lived through the daily horrors of the troubles in the 70s and 80s. It is now for a new generation of political leadership to reframe the vision to deliver the promise that the Good Friday Agreement captured. We hope that this important conference will focus on the legacy of the Good Friday Agreement and how its provisions have come to exercise so much gravitational pull on the type of Brexit that may ultimately emerge. The agreement captured an essential feature of the union writ large that is that you could hold more than one identity British and Irish, British and European, Irish and European perhaps even Catalan and Spanish a political accommodation for complex identities. The union provided a political framework for the idea that it is not incompatible to have a strong sense of Irishness within a more fully integrated union in the same way that the Good Friday Agreement captured the compatibility of British and Irish in Northern Ireland. To discuss these themes in more depth it gives me great pleasure to welcome to the stage the first panel and this will be chaired by one of the most distinguished journalists in Ireland, Olivia O'Leary. So please give a warm welcome to Olivia O'Leary and the first panel. Thank you very much. Good morning everybody and the first thing that I have to do is to tell you to turn off the awful phones. Would you please encase the phone is still on just check if you can that it's off and of course to warn you about the exits should anything untoward happen as you see they're all lit up around you just take a note of them as a say in case you need to know where they are. We're very fortunate to be joined this morning by an elite club three people who ran the country and were responsible for the complex web of British Irish and Northern relations and EU relations during the lead up to the and the working indeed afterwards of the Good Friday agreement of 1998 the Good Friday Belfast agreement. All three former Tishi are going to give us the benefits of their thoughts on the Good Friday agreement on the conditions that led to the settlement the role the EU played in those conditions and the impact that Brexit might have on the region now and for Anglo-Irish relations. We'll divide the session into three parts to begin with speakers are going to offer their their personal reflections on the topic drawing from their experience in office they each speak for about five to ten minutes and then we'll have a discussion and then we'll open to the floor for questions and I'm going to introduce them in chronological order. John Bruton served as Tishuk from 1994 to 97 having become Finnegei leader in 1990 previously he served as minister for finance minister for industry and energy minister for industry trade commerce and tourism as Tishuk he was deeply involved in the Northern Ireland peace process which led to the Good Friday Belfast agreement. So John will we start with you your reflections first please. It seems to me to be inevitable if Britain leaves both the customs union and the single market that there will have to be controls on movement of goods across the border either to check whether tariffs have been levied or on the safety of goods or the safety of material or whether the goods have been subsidized in some way that would be constituting unfair trade and we know from history that the existence of border posts however unobtrusive these might be symbolizes for many people the partition of the country which to many people is something that they don't or are disinclined to accept and that is I think therefore become going to become potentially a target also I think we have to recognize that even as it is where the only differences between North and South are in the levels of taxation of certain excisible products that there is significant smuggling and that smuggling is closely allied potentially to paramilitary and criminal activity obviously if Britain departs from the European Union as and has different levels of tariff levied on different levels of goods the opportunities for smuggling will dramatically increase and hence potential funding sources for criminal activity will also tremendously increase it has also been pointed out by by many people that the good Friday agreement is not just a legal agreement it's a state of mind and the state of mind that is named to create was one where of equality that people had respect for one another for the traditions that they had and they could express them express those traditions in different ways and one of the expressions that's available to nationalists who live in northern Ireland is that they can have an Irish passport and that means they are essentially European citizens although not resident in the EU was if the UK is taken out of the European Union and that symbolism will be I think adversely affected by the creation of any form of trench I also think and this would be my last point I don't want to to say to say all the things that my colleagues would want also to say and the the British Brexit secretary Mr Davis has said on a number of occasions recently that two things which are potentially contradictory one he has said well it should be no difficulty having an agreement for mutual recognition because after all our standards and EU standards on the day of Brexit will be the same so no problem he says but then perhaps to a different audience he says there will be divergence after Brexit we will be changing the the the regulations in unspecified areas after Brexit in order to give expression to the fact that we have quotes taken back control and quotes now of course that devalues the first statement and it creates a circumstance where the agreement that's made at the initial point of Brexit won't hold for any length of time and will have to be constantly renegotiated every time Britain decides to remind itself that it's taken back control by having a slightly different standard now he says or there will be mutual recognition but mutual recognition has something as I understand it that has to be negotiated case by case product by product service by service it's not something that you can you know buy a blanket mutual recognition of everything and proceed to diverge and the amount and this is the last point I want to make the amount of civil service and executive time that's being taken up by brexit up to brexit day and will be absorbed by brexit afterwards for years and years to come this will be a huge diversion of talented people that we need to be building a dynamic society in a part of the world that's aging relative to the rest of the world and needs dynamism to be increased rather than decreased if it's to hold its own the diversion the diversion of talent that brexit constitutes is an unmitigated tragedy for Britain for Ireland and for Europe I wish I could be optimistic and say I can see a way through to ensure that it doesn't happen but as of this moment I don't but my colleagues of course are congenitally more optimistic I've no doubt that's the nature of the beast I suppose they know that have solutions okay well I mean we can hear the frustration absolute frustration in that contribution so I'm moving on now to the man who does smile a lot and is indeed an optimist Bertie a hern whether he can be an optimist in this situation we don't know he was t-shirt from 97 to 2008 having become leader of in a fall in 1994 before that he served as minister for finance minister for industry and commerce minister for arts culture in the grail took and minister for labour as t-shirt he was a central figure in the long and often very difficult negotiation of the good friday belfast agreement which was signed just before he left office in 1998 so Bertie a hern your your reflections thanks Olivia I think we're looking back first of all and on 20 years of the agreement uh its successes have been that there's peace in the north and I think the peace has held well and hopefully we'll continue to at the hold good it's changed the atmosphere of politicians even though there are difficulties but at least politicians in northern Ireland talk to each other now people can forget that it was almost impossible to get them to sit in the one room at one time as we entered the anniversary recently a lot of people who who were not involved or who were young at the time found it hard to believe that we don't need two or three meetings where everybody was in the one room so now I think they they can deal with each other they operate together and they work together uh and just moving quickly I think the the kind of issues that they've resolved over the years working together the reform of policing uh prisoners decommissioning the change of the criminal justice system the equality legislation there are enormous issues the issues that are still outstanding um are not of the same magnitude and I wouldn't say they're non-issues that would be incorrect but they're certainly not issues that are of the substance that should prevent them finding a solution and having spent the last two weeks in the north and talking to them all I I do believe that they'll they'll get back uh at her say again um Brexit has complicated there's no doubt about that people are sitting on the defence far more than they would have otherwise and it's also given them excuse to sit on the fence um if they needed that in northern Ireland uh so uh we now have to try and deal with that issue best we can uh I've said to some of the organizers the other day uh none of us and nobody mentioned in 1998 that was a possibility that uh the Republic of Ireland and the UK would be out of the European Union it was not something uh that was even uh put down on a long list uh unfortunately that's not the position now there's a number of references to the European Union in the Good Friday Agreement uh where we thought we would continue to cooperate uh the commission of course and the uh president uh were very helpful always in the European context of what we were doing not only during the negotiations of the Good Friday Agreement but for the the years afterwards and during my time and and after my time they were always helpful in the peace fund and and all the other ways and we we need to acknowledge the the European dimension of that from the negotiations now yeah I I think one of the the problems Olivia is that there's a lot of new people there's new people in the governments there's new people in the parties uh that makes life a little bit more difficult some people don't fully engage with maybe the history or the operation or issues and you know it's a different British government to the British government we have dealt with down through the years and even on the Tory side we weren't empowered then but you know there were it's different personalities and that's made um certainly life more more complex um can we find a way out I I'm not going to say I totally disagree with John because there's no point in saying we see an optimistic view um when that morning headlines in the UK is that the prime minister very late last night found that it was necessary to make another statement uh late on a Sunday night to say that she is not returning on the the custom union uh that's because of the vote in the commons on Thursday I assume um we would all hope but it doesn't seem likely uh that the custom union as we know the custom union that the UK will sign up to that uh I would love to see that happen but I'm not optimistic on that and even if they did uh a point that's forgotten that wouldn't even be enough the custom union equals tariffs and controls and um but it it doesn't meet what John was just mentioned there about regulatory standards at regulatory standards are part of the single european act are part of of what is the um um what what we what we need in that's to you know to take the the rest of the the parts with it and that's not likely at all so I think the the difficulty that we have even if we got a customs union that wouldn't solve the the problem now I would hope as time goes on uh that the reason the main reason uh British Tories are opposed to the the custom union is that they feel they would not have power to deal with third countries and trade agreements where I would be optimistic it doesn't seem to me beyond the bounds of possibility that you could have an agreement ultimately uh in the EU UK trade agreement that would say that the UK uh could negotiate with countries that haven't already a trade agreement uh with at the European Union uh that would allow them the flexibility uh to do that because and my logic in that is simple and if I can put it in a few sentences why would the UK want to go and organize all the new agreements with countries that the EU already have trade agreements are they going to get better terms uh our country is going to give a better agreement with a country with under 70 million that they have with a block that's 450 million I would doubt it and the point that's made by Boris continually is that this is the key issue that they have that freedom so if they do an agreement WTO and remember when the UK break next March 29th March next year and they pull out of the European Union they're then out of the WTO they have to apply for the WTO they have they lose the 53 agreements they presently have they have to go and reenact all of those agreements individually that's talk about taking up time of public servants and civil servants but that doesn't seem a likely a likely a good thing to be doing so I I think perhaps it won't be called the custom union as we call it today but something very close to it that they might agree agree to that the idea I don't want to be either a motive or alarmist about it but the the idea of us going back to any kind of a border would be a disaster I don't believe it would ever happen you wouldn't have to wait for violence the communities on both sides of the borders with their bare hands it pulled down any attempt but anything up so we wouldn't have to wait too long so that's not going to happen the Irish government have rightly in my view and repeatedly ruled out a technological solution right up until last week in the discussions in Brussels they said that is not a runner and I think they're they're right on that so the negotiations continue and the one fear I have and this is my one top and safety bit of advice I really think the government should try to conclude as much as they can in June on this I think running it close running it down to Halloween to October is dangerous because this would be my fear I'm with a former president here and knows how these things work in European councils all of us have spent a lot of our life in European councils but if you come down to the last few days my fear is that our teacher could be called in by the French and the Germans by the Commission by the presidency and they would be put to them listen the British are paying their 50 billion they are ready to conclude on freedom of movement they're ready to to move on a whole lot of other issues we have a good EU trade agreement we have a transition period that is up to December 2020 and maybe beyond if necessary and the future relationship which can't be agreed until the UK are out of the European Union so that can't happen until after next March but they can say it's looking very promising and we don't think you Irish should push just as hard as you're pushing and we think it's two o'clock in the morning and we think maybe should give a bit of a compromise and that's how it works that's how it always works and you know I think the Irish government they're doing well I've no criticism of the negotiation but I don't think they should find themselves having a Halloween party at two o'clock in the morning of that nature I think that's a that's a risk too far so therefore they have to try I don't think conclude an agreement by the end of June I don't think that's going to be possible because you're not going to have the EU UK agreement by the end of June but I think they need to get remember the withdrawal agreement the protocol of the withdrawal agreement which is what deals with Northern Ireland deals with the relationship with the UK that's the crucial bit for us the rest of it there's plenty of others they'll come after it and I just think we need to try and get as much as we can in that by by the end of this June you'd know all about Halloween parties at two o'clock in the morning yeah okay and we'll move on now to our final speaker Brian Cowan became Tishock and leader of Finafall in 98 only months after the signing of the Good Friday Belfast Agreement and he remained Tishock until 2011 before that he served as minister for finance minister for health and children minister for transport and energy and communications and minister for labor Brian Cowan your thoughts well thanks to Divian good morning to everyone I think that has been clear from my two predecessors reflections thus far I mean no one has a simple solution to what to this problem and even if one had I think has distinguished this audience is we wouldn't be telling you either because unless this is done in the negotiating process itself then its value could well be diminished if there was some good idea that would fill us across the line on this regarding the Good Friday agreement first of all I mean and my two predecessors have were centrally involved in this and and I came more into it in terms of the implementation phase and police reform and stuff like that but the question really is that we have some very complex constitutional principles that were agreed in that agreement there were two documents was the interparty agreement between the parties and then there was the British Irish agreement which binds that and all future governments and was recently said when there was some case law on this in the English courts that the Good Friday agreement as a as part of the British Constitutional Construct is a central to as Magna Carta you wouldn't think that listening to some of the comments being made that this is something that can be thrown aside for some expedient immediate reason like leaving the European Union and and what John Bruton has and Bertie have said regarding this whole question of citizenship and the rights of citizens that citizenship accords people who reside there for example you can be Irish you can be British you can be British or Irish you can be British and Irish if you want which means you can hold two passports one of which is a member of the European Union one which isn't and what does that mean for the rights of EU citizens in that area subsequent to Brexit these are not issues that can be that can be dismissed lightly so the constitutional balance that was struck which talked about you know obviously maintaining the status quo until the majority on both sides of the border would agree otherwise and that the British government would facilitate a different constitutional arrangement should that be the wish of the people and that's a much more balanced Constitutional Construct would have been the case back in 1920 so now that a decision has been made by the British government to leave the European Union and these are central issues for the people who live in the north quite apart from the day-to-day problems that arise when when a country becomes a non-member and has a neighbor which is a member. The second point I'd make is of course is that it was envisaged that our continued membership of the European Union would provide a stream if you like of the dynamic relationship developing and maturing over time and that was certainly the case from 1973 to 1998 and those who have been involved in promoting Ireland's interests within Europe found a very excellent forum if you like in which the relationship developed between Britain, British and Irish governments in a way that wasn't possible prior to membership. One would be very concerned about how that relationship will develop in a new situation where Britain is no longer a member of the European Union and that sort of readily available interaction is denied us because of the fact that Britain had left. I'd also read that the European Union it should be remembered was and continues to be very supportive of the whole peace process throughout that period and the solidarity that was shown to Ireland in that context should be acknowledged and hopefully we will find a way of maintaining that link with the European Union in terms of developing civil society there and developing a more accommodating political culture in the north as a result of the Good Friday agreement being implemented. So that's on the Good Friday side of the house. Relations with Brexit the real problem is we want to maintain a good relationship with Britain post-Brexit let's be clear. We want the relationship within the island of Ireland and the logic of the island economy to allow develop over time as well and certainly some arrangement regarding the island of Ireland has to be sorted out particularly in relation to agriculture and agriculture products not just not just that but particularly in relation to that matter because we have cross-border arrangements there in terms of supply of product to many of these you know to dairies and to creamries, nought and south the whole rural economy is based upon that interdependence being respected and being allowed to continue on a daily basis. So some accommodation has to be made there. I think the problem is as we've seen in the Good Friday agreement constructive ambiguity can get you so far. It helps the process to proceed until things start to develop and certain issues are left in brackets that can be reverted to if progress is made on other issues. But I think that there comes a point where you know the concrete specifics have to be addressed. I mean I respect the British Prime Minister's dilemma and our problems to say that you know this is a the backstop is something that no British Prime Minister can accept well it was no British Prime Minister can accept it except herself because she accepted on the 8th of December and it has legal standing and the legal documentation has been put together. So this level of inconsistency in terms of the approach doesn't help to instill confidence that we can get a solution. Now I'm not saying for one moment we shouldn't have a solution. We have to get a solution. What has been hoped for and I read what the former director general commission said yesterday in one of our papers. I mean the hope is that some pragmatic strategy will emerge beyond the ideology that's dominating the debate thus far and that the engagement between the EU and the UK negotiators will get into that level of detail. In the event of time not being available to do that sufficiently the question of a transition period being there that will maintain the status quo pending these matters being resolved provides us with the avoidance of a cliff edge problem that would be of major proportions and a serious economic dislocation to both economies. So as a former teacher I can do is wish the present one well. I don't see I don't see I can be of any more help to him and certainly I'm not forced on his list I'm sure but I wish them well. I mean they have they have I mean I've great confidence in the you know in our representatives and our people at the diplomatic level who might know from first-hand experience both in relation to the northern question and as the EU matters are the highest caliber and are well respected by their peers throughout the European Union so I have no fears and that's scored that our case isn't being heard and taken into account but what needs to happen as Bertie has said is we need to see some progress in concrete detail terms very soon rather than this general reassurance that there is a solution and if only we could sit down I think David Trimble said we could sort it out in an hour and a half. I dealt with David Trimble I don't think you sort out a whole lot with David in an hour and a half or anything but certainly not an an issue as complex as this. Yeah just to throw it out to to all of you it certainly to somebody of my generation the one of the most important underpinnings of the peace in Northern Ireland and the complicated Good Friday Belfast agreement settlement was the continuing good relationship between the British and the Irish government that that was a pillar that meant that neither government was any more going to be held hostage by its own extremists that both governments could learn to work together and indeed the secretariats the officials on both sides also had had had that good relationship and Bertie you had terrific relationship with with Tony Blair John you would have known John Major in your time Brian you would have known Gordon Brown and these personal relationships were important as well is there a fear because certainly to somebody of my generation I feel that fear that that relationship has already been damaged by Brexit and that it's going to take an awful lot to get that back on track well it has it's the the truth and and I agree with what has been said about Brian about the video officials and our diplomatic effort but I think I can say no more than there hasn't been a meeting of the intergovernmental conference under the the agreement for a long time and I think you don't have to be a former teacher to work out why that hasn't happened yeah the difficulty but is down the road and you know John and I have said this that from 73 until today every week there are endless number of officials from this country meeting British officials there's working groups there's advisory groups there's tank tanks they're all there walking and we've held the most senior positions they're here in this room today of in the in the administration uh of the uh of the commission and you know all that relationship I mean I got to know Tories and Labour ministers and my colleagues did really well through European Council meetings when I was in the Social Affairs Council the Echo Fing Council all the years in the European Council and and the officials did so we that that all ends next March that's finished Veneto and sometimes the British people officials don't get that and and you know it's a very important part of the the life and times I think but what we could do rather than the intergovernmental council being not having meetings that could become the vehicle after next March where the Irish Government and the British Government wouldn't always have to meet a teacher and Prime Minister level they could do that every quarter the finance people could do and in the alters of month every quarter the industry ministers could do it so that we would continue to have that relationship because otherwise we leave we lose and leave behind 45 years of very good relationship that's been meticulously built up by our civil service and when you walk into the department any minister the first day they're told you know this is the brief in Europe and the contacts and you know it's all very good and and it works very well but that's over and that's a big big loss it's also I think we have to find an alternative to that and you know in the absence of an alternative in the discussions today I think that the Intergovernmental Conference could be used for that or something like about I think that's good because there's already a secretary there's a mechanism there for that and the relationships are strained I think because let's be honest then you know when David Davies you know I don't I don't know the man you know he and what he says on the Monday definitely isn't what he says on a Friday and as well as maybe in politics we're all guilty of that over a career but what the trouble is he'll say something else on the following Monday so hey it's not it's not easy and then when he kind of accuses our Taoiseach of being you know and God he just really shows what he does know about Irish politics that he's in the pocket of chimp vein or something he said you know you know he doesn't he doesn't get it too well and then anyway I the British I have sat across the table with the British and all kind of negotiations cap reform structural funds the north they're they're a clever bunch and I have no doubt that they have worked through what they can give on the word that they prefer and which is not the single market not not the custom union and regulatory alignment and it's the word the DUP like as well so so let's stick on regulatory alignment if regulatory alignment can bring us a solution that means there's not any change of substance between the present single market and the custom union then I think we can buy it I don't think at this stage there is much point and in trying to beat the drum just on the customs union and think mark I think we have to move a bit and make regulatory alignment as per the December deal and stand up and and and nail it down I mean the I think the British government have said recently that they're quite happy that regulatory alignment and the backstop will go in to the protocol and in June on the withdrawal agreement so I think our Attorney General and our League of People have to try and nail that down but it seems to me that's where the game is but your question was have we lost we have but I think we just have to win that back it's been it's been a bad two years since the vote yeah and I just think we have to try and push forward rather than worry about that last two years John Burton can I put that point to you I mean somebody of my generation would have watched those years and years and years of building up a good relationship with Britain including Garrett Fitzgerald's angloirish agreement which was probably you know the beginning of certainly formalizing that agreement and the danger now that without that EU context which in a way diluted tensions that might have been there otherwise without that context how are we going to get back on to an even keel in terms of the relationship and what do you think of Bertie Herron's suggestion about using the intergovernmental conference to do that I would have no difficulty with using the intergovernmental conference but you'd have to decide what would be on the agenda because people don't go to meetings unless there's some business to be done just going to meetings for the sake of meetings is not something they'll persuade busy ministers to do other than send some junior along to I think it's a little bit wider than has been said already in terms of the change that you should EU membership made to the relationship between Britain and Ireland between 1922 and 1973 no British Prime Minister ever felt it was worth his while to come to meet his Irish counterpart on this island every meeting involved the Irish T-shirt our president of the executive council of the day going to London and that indicated to me and indicates to me an unequal relationship an unhealthily unequal relationship in terms of the sort of complexes on our part that that inequality engendered and the patronizing attitude that was expressed on the other side that all changed when Britain joined the EU yeah Ted Heath came to visit Liam Cosgrave in Balladona in Ireland within months of Ireland joining along with the UK and Denmark the European Union and that represented a huge change in the psychological relationship all those old complexes big versus small were dissolved by the fact that we were both members of something bigger than either of us and I think the relationship that was engendered in the margins of other council meetings where there was no annual Irish issue at all to be discussed but we were together working to solve a European problem that developed a sort of sense of mutual respect between the two English speaking members of the European Union as it then as it was and that's now not going to be there I mean I applaud the suggestions about Brian and Bertie have made but they don't replace that sort of common endeavor that was manifest in our attending from the lowest working group right up to summits in the in the European Union yeah I think the other thing that has to be recalled about Britain staying in the customs union which may be a lost cause or may not it's a long way to October is that most customs unions that the EU have do not cover agriculture and we will need to have clarity if we were to have free trade in agricultural goods across the border is there going to be the same level of support for farmers on either side of the border is is Britain going to keep having some sort of common agriculture policy similar to our policy because if they don't if they're permitting imports however safe those imports may be from other parts of the world and they're then able to compete on the EU market with their product knowing that their market is supplied from elsewhere and thereby able to undercut EU producers that's going to distort the agricultural market as Brian said and I think we it's a very sensitive market and I think it's also important to say that because of the safety requirements and the food scares that there being in Europe in particular there's going to be a very high level of insistence in in Brussels on the part of all the member states to ensure that nothing but the safest food product enters the EU food chain and once a consignment of beef or a consign lorry of milk crosses the border at Newury it's entering the EU food chain and that has to be assured and there is as I understand it in the common customs code of the EU and in the requirements in regard to fighter sanitary controls there is a requirement for physical inspections for a minimum proportion of all consignments to be physically inspected before they enter the EU market now where is that going to be done and how is it going to be done these are questions for which I know answers have been forthcoming and I thought it was very interesting that the the House of Commons Northern Ireland committee which is I understand is chaired by a Euro Euro skeptic conservative MP they had a report which I think contains the most telling quotation of all about this issue in regard to the frictionless border that was promised I quote the committee said we had no visibility of any technical solutions anywhere in the world beyond aspirational that would remove the need for physical checks at the border that's from the Northern Ireland committee chaired by a Brexit MP containing numerous unionists unfortunately no Irish nationalists because of decisions taken by by by another political party to start on this platform but I mean that's that's the reality we're we're facing and I I'm I'm very very very worried about it and I think alignment is one thing and you can have alignment of regulations but you have to have interpretation of those regulations has to be consistent and judicial decisions where there's disputes about interpretation has to be consistent and if you have that the Supreme Court of Appeal on the British side is going to be the UK Supreme Court and the ultimate source of appeal in interpreting what a regulation means or an aligned regulation constitutes on the EU side is going to be a different court European Court of Justice you're going to have the possibility of divergent interpretations of the same rules yeah which is going to lead to problems Brian can I turn to you and and not to move off from the subject John's been talking about but behind it the fact that all of these problems are going to have to be discussed hopefully between two countries who have some time for one another and some trust for one another and in terms of bringing that relationship back on the rails because goodness knows it's gone off the rails I mean I remember 1971 I'm that old and I remember the cat calling that went on across the Irish Sea between Jack Lynch and Ted Heath at the time of the exchange of telegrams on the rowing and I remember as a young woman thinking this ain't no way to run a railroad these people should be talking behind closed doors they should be talking quietly and constructively how do we stop ourselves going back to cat calling across the Irish Sea well I don't I don't think we're going to go back to that I mean you know their attention's often arise during negotiating you know when things are said in order just to put down the marker but it's not it doesn't mean you know that's it and and there will be provocative things said from people who don't have direct responsibility in the negotiations which can often put people obsessed too and things are said and replied because to leave them all and answered might be to give them legitimacy so I think that the sufficient maturity in the British and Irish governments to realize that this relationship that we have this bilateral relationship not alone in relation to how the island of Ireland operates but the need for us to to work closely together even though non-membership obviously makes it more difficult I mean that's just the reality the situation we can't carry on as if this is a small thing you know they're leaving the European Union and things can go on as before that's just not the way the world works and certainly from the European Union's perspective in terms of their negotiation they're not going to end up with a situation where non-membership is a burden-free zone where other countries other pop you know there are other countries in recent times that have shown a pop of the swing towards you know having a different relationship with the European Union so therefore the negotiators are all about trying to ensure that the that the integrity of the single market is maintained there are certain things you can get around but if you look at the demands that are being made on the British side in terms of the movement the control over the movement of people the question of being able to run their own trade agreements the question of the various things that they have set out for themselves six or seven basic points there is no precedent deal with any other country that covers this this is one of the problems we don't have a we can't go to the Canadian trade deal and say that'll cover it or the Turkish deal won't cover it or the the Swiss model of 120 agreements with financial agreements won't cover it and so therefore you know you of the seven issues I think the British Irish Chamber of Commerce did out of a very good tabular statement which showed maybe about the three or four that one particular deal would cover but not on seven so therefore we don't have a precedent we've never had a country even European Union before and so therefore we're in sort of a new frontier country here that's how we handle it but the question really is that the European Union have to maintain the integrity of the single market I mean they can't you can't come to an accommodation that messes up your own foundations either and that has been said in some cases people are takers here rather than givers in terms of what's available so we know what people want what can they get that doesn't mess up the whole house is a big issue for us but while we're standing on ground and defending our essential national interests and we've seen why these things are important for us and the government is doing that any Irish government have the duty to do that it doesn't mean that we're trying to develop an acrimonious relationship with those who have decided and whose was decision we have to respect to leave the union but we are saying to them that we need answers to some very very important questions and as I say we're getting to the stage in the negotiations where now some flesh has to be put on the bone here and I don't believe that that should result in acrimonious outcome far from it I believe that the challenge to the next political generation on both sides of the IRC is to find the ways and means by which we can replace that European interaction in some way that gives cognizance to the importance of the by that relationship we have because quite apart from anything else apart from economics to diaspora issues there's a whole range of issues on the human level there are common travel area which is going to be respected yeah all of that is is maintains a status quo and so far as you can have it but whereas I say one of them is a non-member but we're speaking at the moment in the context of the Good Friday Belfast Agreement and there are two things that strike me that arise because of Britain's decision to leave the European Union number one that particularly among nationalists in Northern Ireland the readiness to accept devolved government was done in the context that it was being done with Britain and Ireland both belonging to the European Union now that context isn't there anymore is that going to affect the readiness particularly of the nationalist community to be happy with devolved government and number two what about all of those people with Irish passports in Northern Ireland that regard themselves both as Irish and as European citizens and indeed that that Irish passport guaranteed them that position how do we validate their right to be European citizens as well as Irish citizens arguably there'll be more need for the north south bodies after Brexit than there is today because to the extent that the UK diverges from the rules there will be more problems to be solved as far as they apply in Ireland to the two parts of Ireland and I was very interested I was at a meeting in Westminster about a month and a half ago to hear Jeffrey Dunson the DUP MP say that he regretted that there hadn't been an agreement on the devolved administration at that stage and he said there was never more need he said for north south bodies yeah which they were originally not too keen on never more need than there will be now for those to exist in order to find Irish solutions to EU UK problems and I think we shouldn't we shouldn't we shouldn't be too pessimistic about that and what I do think we will miss however is the sort of contacts between Westminster and Dublin that will be served for the reasons we've decided already Brian just on that point you asked about you know it's it's one of the ironies of the situation when the peace fund monies were being allocated and presentations were being made everyone appeared the US skeptics of people who didn't like the European Union appeared people who are very pro-European Union appeared because they could see the benefits of it you know it's it's ironic that some people who philosophically assigned very maligned motives to the European Union as an entity now have a very benign view of what the outcome should be to the negotiations and the same up north but I mean that's just a point that I'm the aside the question really that you're asking is you know to what extent is the absence of Europe going to impact on the dynamics of peace building in in in Northern Ireland certainly the lack of resources available to many disadvantaged communities which that support has represented consistency over the last 20 years is something that's going to be sorely felt it'll have to be given greater priority within the national budgets of both governments because it's important work there are many communities as we know in both loyalists and nationalist communities who are totally disenfranchised from as they see the system and have been ignored as they would see it within the political culture for very many years so that's an issue I mean getting the European Union to continue to to support us in that would be something that we would I'm sure advocate as a member of the union and perhaps it could be negotiated as part of the exit strategy that people are talking about because it is important you need to put resources into these situations you know empty rhetoric doesn't get you very far in communities that don't see real change on the ground but I do think that the European Union's whole you know philosophy of equality and solidarity and respect for member states regardless of size you know within the treaties and the protection of citizens rights under the treaties by the commission these are all important factors that are going to come into play for those who have Irish passports in a non-member state and who have the rights of citizenship to a member state simultaneously and I'm not so sure that that was ever given any deliberation during the the referendum campaign I mean we all know referendum campaigns can be very difficult to get the to deal with issues the goal always said he never agreed with the referendum in the French constitution because simply because people don't answer the question you asked him you have 50 reasons to give the government a kick it might be the one that's on the on the ballot paper but you'll get you'll get the kick anyway so unfortunately domestic whilst the theory of referendums are important to recognize often that the practical outcome is that the issue isn't addressed sufficiently at all for us but we have to live with the decision so I just say from my point of view a continuation of European influence by whatever means will be an important factor in helping bring the bring the sort of gel together make sure the certain communities don't disintegrate completely Bertie that question of Brexit and the effect it's going to have on on the peace process and comments say from people like David Trimble that the increasing talk about a united Ireland by Sinn Fein and perhaps by some politicians down here could result in the renewal of loyalist violence that's specter emerging I think there are a few points the first one is just the effect in the north I mean 80 percent of the money for agriculture comes in the EU direct I haven't seen any written commitment by the government saying that they're going to pay all that money there's a loose lib kind of reply that I thought there was up to about 2020 or something yeah well yeah but that's that's only the end of the current deal with for the for the that's the annual budget but for the next round there's no there's no commitment now maybe they will and the whole issue of research which in northern Ireland are very good queens ulcer university of huge research departments doing very good work linked to a lot of innovative small companies in the north's economy they're all hugely important things and your question the psychic on nationalism the ideologues are watching this I saw this for the last fortnight up there talking to people they they worry about this and their views would be their usual views but I think that this is the danger that the danger is and I've said this directly to the dup and I've talked to the lilas groups I keep in touch with them ever ever since I was involved and I don't think there's a danger I think they're they're trying hard within the leadership of the uda the uff red hand commandos um to trying to pull themselves away from violence and from criminality and trying to be constructive as they they can be and they have their own problems and their own tensions which is not really a political issue but they I think they're doing their best so I don't think they're looking for reasons the difficulty is but can northern Ireland continue on to be run by nine excellent civil servants and who are looking for direction on the daily basis to Westminster who are looking to number 10 and there lies the difference to do that on a long-term basis is not sustainable because we reinvent the wheel and I have said this to all the parties like one of the things and you could be cynical about this but we won't be cynical like the big effort now by Sinn Féin this summer is to organise the 50th anniversary march in Derry for the civil rights movement um but you can see where the wheel you can see where the wheel goes and um there lies the danger and I I think it is vitally important Brexit or no Brexit that the institutions John has said the north south bodies the intergovernment conference think I'm not saying that'd be a perfect solution but at least there's a structure there but we we need to get that up anyway if we continue with no institutions no contact I mean what happens today if there's an Irish minister one of our ministers here has an urgent matter and wants to talk to their northern counterpart it could be it could be about pig sheep don't know what the important issue we saw it in the foot and mouth days many other examples where they could pick up the phone have a meeting meeting by them a scandal as they used to do um agree the line have a statement they can't do that today they get on to a civil servant who who will who will say well I have to check where's he checking he's checking number 10 number 10 don't want to know anyway they don't want calls in order learned and they you know you can see that you can see the problem and and this is this if that goes on if that goes on the answer to your question is yes it creates a big big difficulty it creates difficulty Brian would you mind telling me what the time is because I've mislaid my watch so I need to keep an eye you have as well first it's that's grand okay because we're going to turn to the audience but I just first want to ask the three of you as it is all the references to the European Union and the Good Friday Agreement are going to have to maybe be looked at and and rewritten that that may have to happen is it time perhaps to look at the Good Friday Agreement itself and to ask whether what it has done is to produce a government of two extremes who were always going to find it difficult to get on with one another and to exclude those both of the moderate Unionist position and the of constitutional nationalism John is there an argument and I know people like Jacob Brace Jacob Rhys Marga said stuff like perhaps the Good Friday Agreement has served its purpose and people like me got very cross and we heard that but does he have a point is it time to look at it again well I think the Good Friday Agreement may well have been the only agreement that could have been reached at the time it was reached and anything I would say now is not to be considered as criticism of it but as Barry Anders said in his introductory speech here the Good Friday Agreement was put together envisaging two very different circumstances to the ones that are now going to obtain one was that we both would be in the European Union and two that it was for a multi-party situation in Northern Ireland where you had possibly the possibility of shifting coalitions in the center that could you know move enable movement in politics and people to take a breather from office for a while but still for the basic agreement to be remain operational the difficulties are to be found both in the Good Friday Agreement itself and in the St Andrews Agreement the first difficulty in the Good Friday Agreement is that every party is supposed to register if they have their full vote as to whether they're far united Ireland or far continuing the UK now that's a sort of artificial situation because most people on a daily basis in Northern Ireland when they think of public administration they're not thinking of whether it's ultimately going to be a harp or a crown they're thinking about whether their refuse is being collected efficiently whether the health whether they can access health service and all of that and on those sorts of issues there's no difference between a DUP voter and a Sinn Fein voter the other problem arises in regard to St Andrews Agreement where I don't know but Bertie would know the background of this but rather than I but in order to get the DUP on board I understand there had to be an agreement that the deputy that the first minister would always come from the biggest party and that of course meant that there was competition to ensure on the nationalist side that the vote was consolidated to maximize the possibility that the biggest party would be a nationalist party and the equal and opposite incentive on the other side now obviously there's no percentage in reopening these issues at this time if we can get the existing agreement to work we should get the existing agreement to work but at the same time we should look at it objectively and say that you know maybe it's not designed to encourage the sort of mature responsibility taking politics that you need I think there's an aversion to taking responsibility in Northern Ireland yeah which arises from its status some people would call it a lack of ambition even in terms well lack of responsibility which is more serious I think I think what's wrong with let me say so quickly I don't believe the places of the Friday agreement I believe in implementing the good Friday agreement and it has not been fully implemented certainly the spirit of the agreement is something that we've always tried to propagate from an Irish government point of view I mean I come back to this point there's a constitutional balance here I mean we we brought in we changed our constitution on the basis that we would obviously completely agree to the consent principle but that there would be fairness there would be equality there would be a recognition of civil and cultural rights that there is a substantial number of people within the Ireland of Ireland who's who's legitimate aspirations for a united Ireland that that is a legitimate objective that it shouldn't be seen as subversive as it was for years within the Northern Ireland politic yeah polity so you know to be frank you know it's not as British as Finchley and it never was as British as Finchley and we have agreed to a compromise here that needs to be implemented and the rights of those who have as strong an axis aspiration as I have must be recognized not and I really can't be attritional by crappy war by another means I agree with all this political culture has to be more accommodated that we have to get rid of these exclusives dogmas that that's dominated Northern politics and that we've actually agreed look it's very simple in my way of thinking we've all agreed to get on a train up to the Good Friday agreement we were always concerned about the destination of the train now we're just agreed to go on a common journey and we're prepared to be agnostic about where the train will bring us once we're together and we're not beating the head off each other on the train so you know let's be fair but let's get people to recognize that the consent principle for the union's politics provides them with the guarantee that they've sought yeah was brought about by a constitutional change here which was to be recognized in the full civil and and cultural rights of the minority population being recognized in how the places run and we've seen that in the sort of radical approach approach there was to police reform we can't have this creeping incrementalism all the time that says we'll give you a little bit more we'll give you a little bit you know it's about equality it's about people being as entitled to be Irish there as they are entitled to be British I respect that completely they must reciprocate that respect and give that recognition to the nationalist people. Bertie just a quick comment on is the Anglo is the Good Friday Belfast agreement perhaps at the stage where it needs to be looked at again? Well there are two things in this one is what Rhys Mag is talking about and the answer that is no because what he wants to do is set it aside what John is talking about changing some of the procedure rules and the designation of parties I mean that has happened the Alliance one stage changed and went unionist to went nationalist I think to just get something to get the institutions up and running so procedural rules and maybe it was too many procedures you know when we sat down with too many rules because like we were trying to get all the parties like we made the threshold for political participation very low to get the Davey Irvine and Davey Adams and these people Billy Hodges and onside so there were all those kind of things built in maybe some of those can change but the the attempt by some of our British colleagues is a different thing and they're trying to change what Friday agreement because they see it as an obstacle and they they see it an obstacle to Brexit and so that's it that's a different a different debate. Okay let's open it to the floor and I can see a few hands up there already if you could wait until we get the roving microphones to you and if you wouldn't mind standing up so we can see you and tell us who you are there's a lady there and there's somebody over here as well yeah. Hi Libby, it's Sarah Cary. In relation to Bertie Herne's point and I know it's one that a lot of people have concern of that we might be dropped over the edge at midnight or 2 a.m. in those negotiations but I've always viewed at that rather than look at this from the border being the Northern Ireland Irish border that it's the border between the UK and the EU and we're not the weak link we're the ace in the hole by which the EU negotiating team will force the UK to recognize the inconsistency of their position so you know we might be the winning card not the people that are going to suffer at the end of this when it's that time late at night. Okay thank you Sarah and I'm going to take another questioner here as well yeah. Romentine and filmmaker and co-founder of Esperance Abductions actually I was living in London when the referendum took place and I was a very enthusiastic campaigner for a main and I cannot tell you the number of times I received assurances from prominent Brexiteers including grailing one night at a packed meeting in Chatham House that we had nothing to worry about the border it would remain seamless and this was really almost a non-issue but now we know it's not a non-issue and there's one huge concern I have and I put it to the panel read that this is in my view and certainly my personal experience the golden age in Anglo-Irish relations but it's really the golden age at a people-to-people level at a business-to-business level and I'm really worried at the moment that while the government is obviously doing its best playing hardball at global at at government to government level public opinion in Britain has been hugely ignored there's no real attempt to explain to British people the significance of the reintroduction of the border and in my view that's the strongest negotiating card well shall we say the leverage it increases the government's leverage and I would equally say the same problem is occurring at a European level and I put it to the panel really that it's not just at states person to states person level politician politician level we must be concerned of people to people level and the government frankly in my view I put it to you and it's not just the government the opposition of responsibility to their inter-party connections to be doing it as well not doing that what should they be doing we need a massive public information campaign not to be engaging partisan politics but just to explain to people the effect of what for for England would be to create a border between the north and south of England we have to make them understand that because that's one practical way of putting real pressure as I found myself even trying to explain that to people a person of it does have an effect thank you okay and Bertie if I can put that one to you and and perhaps the feeling that somehow while we worry constantly about the peace and the danger of the resumption of violence is there that same understanding among the public in Britain and Sarah's point first of all Sarah I think the Michel Barnier's team have been top class I mean they have they have really fought the Irish case but you know being there done that I know when it comes to the evil hour you know what happens in these things I've seen it more times and been part of it when we had the presidency and German colleagues have to those that to trade off and you know I'd hate to see okay services isn't in but the big thing for for our British friends is services so the services come in at two o'clock in the morning and they're paying the money and what happens us and that that's I'm not saying we'd be abandoned but you know the art of politics and the strength of politics is compromise it's not a bad thing it's not an evil thing even though I've been accused of that over the years sometimes but it's a good thing but that's what happens in these games and I'm just saying we should be as far down that line as we can before ultimately it'll come to the late night and the issue listen we tried and and and then the Kenny I know tried in the ministers at the time during the the referendum in the UK and I've been over there many times now then matter what you said was about immigration like if you said anything about anything it was about immigration now nobody seems to mention that it's a it's a hard sell I mean we've all done kind of interviews on on British stations about Brexit over the last year and you know they they don't get the board and the question is always asked so is there going to be a return to violence and of course they say no we're not talking about return to violence there will be no return to violence we're not come back to 30 years of the troubles but there are problems and you try to explain that they don't they're not really interested in that and I think the government are doing their best but it's a hard it's a hard hard battle our best friends in this are the european 26 but we still need in the end of the day to get a deal and that deal you're gonna just say if you're about regulatory alignment the the success of regulatory alignment could be regulatory alignment could equal customs unit and the single mark I'm not talking about regulatory alignment that doesn't but we have to get another name like the the brish's tories can't you know they you know they've got so caught up in it I think most of them don't understand it so let's leave that at par but if you get a different name of regulatory alignment and and get what we need into that I think that's our I feel that's our best best have you got have you got a different name or do you think it's better let them come up with it well you see the dup my friends in the dup think regulatory alignment is a great idea so therefore to listen if they think it's a great idea I think it's a great idea providing it means what I mean John John I feel that united kingdom public opinion never really understood the european union from the beginning uh smaller countries naturally understand the need for rules and rules that are strictly enforced to ensure that there's fair competition in in in an area in contrast I think UK public opinion influenced in part by the common law approach where you agree something in principle and you leave it to judges later on to decide what it means which is completely different to the EU civil law approach which requires everything to be written down in detailed rules and leaving the minimum amount of discretion to judges the european the UK public opinion never understood that they joined a civil law union where you have to have detailed rules for for everything so does our question have a point is there a job the questioner has a point yeah but I would say it's not just in respect of the consequence on the Irish border but the consequence on the border in Dover for example yeah goods entering the port of Dover that are coming from an onion country that larry takes 45 minutes to process to the port of Dover goods coming to the port of Dover from the EU three minutes to get through yeah that's imagine now the delays that are going to be in Britain I feel that in a sense Britain will never abandon the idea of brexit until that is actually brexit and then you will see for itself for the first time what they have done right and maybe at that stage they'll reverse themselves if pride doesn't prevent them from from so doing okay I'm going to take another questioner just up here near the front to keep your hand up thank you it's Alan Dukes I think yeah Alan Dukes yes former politician I remember Anglo-Irish relations before 1973 but at a political level it was kind of morosely differential on our side and morosely patronizing on the British side and I remember Anglo-Irish free trade area agreements which were grossly unbalanced in favour of the UK and we were petitioning to get participation in the UK deficiency payment system for agriculture brexit was an emotional decision it's been said to me that it was just I think the microphone was given up it kind of died yeah there you go it's brexit brexit was the authentic voice of England and not of the United Kingdom and if you look at the votes in Northern Ireland Scotland that that comes out very clearly but it's an emotional decision and when emotion comes in and most referendums turn on emotion rationality gets kind of pushed to the side but as John has just said the British might find out that brexit means something very different from the emotional decision that they made which leads me to wonder if we shouldn't be putting a lot of pressure on the British side of this negotiation to say what they mean when they want to gain freedom to negotiate trade agreements with other countries many people in this room will remember the process of harmonization of legislation that Boris Johnson used to make a mockery of and the the construction of the single market which was largely pushed by Margaret Thatcher and in the commission was pushed by Commissioner Lord Colfield it was a British idea for a very very good commercial reasons so we should now be saying to the British please explain to us and indeed to yourselves where you want to diverge from the regulations that we have and why because I think that's for a British industry and employment in the UK are potentially most at risk yeah they and their 53 trade agreements two more coming up with Mexico and Japan that they want to be part of but we should be putting pressure on them to understand and to explain why they want to diverge because divergence will become a huge problem and personally I think picking up on John Bruton's last point that if we have an agreement that allows them to diverge the first time they start to diverge they will soon find that it's an extremely bad idea and probably not go any further with it I think that's probably the way okay I'm going to take another questioner she's down at the back if you keep your hand up until we get a microphone to you yes thank you Tanya Harrington powers court would like to thank the panel for their contribution one question notwithstanding the current political and process challenges I would welcome the views of the panel on what additional constitutional powers would need to be devolved to Northern Ireland to give practical effect to regulatory alignment in the event of a hard Brexit thank you okay Ryan can I put that those two first to you the constitutional powers that would need to be devolved to Northern Ireland well I must say it's not an issue that I've thought of in detail up to now but I agree there are devolved powers available to the Northern Ireland executive is they're not full governmental powers and if there is to be just regulatory alignment as part of the UK or if there's a special arrangement for the for the Northern Ireland particularly as I say on the agricultural side that would have to be implemented I presume at Westminster level based on present arrangements because the relationship between EU and Britain is organised from a governmental level so but I think that whatever whatever will be required there to give effect to what was agreed I don't see any problem with the Westminster Parliament exceeding to that and making sure it happens and the point that Alan Dukes has made that we need to get the British to say what they mean by yes I'm sure I'm sure you know we don't we're not party to the discussions go on inside in the rooms between Mr Barney and Mr Davis but I'm sure these are precisely the sort of questions that they're seeking answers to I mean you've we've heard of the situation and this is on the anecdotal you hear that you know Mrs May meets Mrs Merkel and Mrs Merkel says what do you want and Mrs May says well what will you put on offer for me you know there's there's a lot of dancing around the issues without everyone seems to be you know give us your bottom lines and then when you get all the bottom lines it's very hard to square the circle to meet the requirements of of what the British have said they want so you then come to the point that has been said in yesterday's paper it's not a question of what what you want it's a question of what we can give them what we can get without messing up the integrity of the of the market mechanisms we have ourselves and then you're told well there's a technology answer to the customs things and then you find well there isn't really a whiz there that's going to sort all that out that could have to be more detailed discussion on that so you know we are and for one of the reasons I on the a relative recent person to talk about brexit is because I didn't know what the hell it was and that could come come to the point so where are we on all of this there's a lot of surmise a lot of speculation but we are getting to the point now of moving from the generality of saying yes this has major repercussions for us and the IAEA are to be complimented on the leadership very quick for all of the work that they've been doing I mean a tremendous amount of work is being done to bring to the fore what the issues are and how we need to strategically work our way through this but at the same time I think in the next few months we hope that some clarity will come to it by June otherwise you know you know certainly that it breeds will bring a lot of a lot of worry to business on both sides of the border and indeed both sides of the airy sea Brian it's funny but one of the first times perhaps that I began to realize or to see anything which made more concrete the notion of brexit was that this picture that vast ferry in the papers over the weekends the sort of ferry that can bypass Britain and bring our goods to to Europe suddenly there was something that was saying yeah this is what we're going to have to do sorry John yeah I think on Alan Duke's question I think there's a conflict going on within the UK government at the moment between Davis who wants to do what Alan says should be done set out what they want and Downing Street and others who want to keep playing it pragmatically and saying as little as possible and the reason Downing Street is taking that view is they fear that if the British government sets out a model for brexit that somebody or some number of MPs on either side will fall away from the government and the government will fall but it would certainly be in our interest as Alan has intuited for Britain to be required to spell out what they actually want because it's only then that they'd see the cost side of what they're doing because at the moment as he said they're dealing with the matter emotionally I think the question at the back was really on the money in what she said about what powers will have to be devolved are taken back to Westminster because it's the UK that's negotiating with Brussels about powers that have been devolved to Edinburgh to Cardiff and to Belfast and there is a serious risk that the one other consequence of brexit could be that the Scotland for example might be extremely angry with the decisions that have been made on its behalf by the UK government which could precipitate it further in the direction of independence and weaken the UK in respect of Northern Ireland it's not as much of a problem because there isn't an administration unfortunately in Northern Ireland but if the people of Northern Ireland do not want to have devolved government drained of all meaning by decisions that are made in London they need to get their devolved administration back up and running to speak up for Northern Ireland in respective matters that affect Northern Ireland okay and we're coming near the end so there's a man here that has wanted would you keep your hands Paul Gillespie would you keep your hand up there Paul until we get a microphone to you Paul Gillespie a member of the UK group in the institute given the shifts that taking Britain out of the EU of the EU is going to affect in terms of British British Irish regions also within Northern Ireland given the potential economic effects and given the constitutional changes including the potential ones in Scotland that John Bruton has referred to do we need in the Republic a much more informed discussion about the possible constitutional futures including unification because the structural changes that are happening in the UK's union and in the general relationship with the EU may force more rapid change than we're prepared for or are we enough prepared for that do we need a kind of new Ireland forum once again to look at the the options or is that kind of talk provocative and premature grand thank you Paul and I'm just going to take a last there was a man with his hand up over there yeah would you just wait till we get a microphone to you and if you could just stand up and tell us who you are yeah yeah Joe Healy president of the Irish Farmers Association and it was just back to I think a point that Bertie Herndon made in relation to calling it regulatory alignment or something that the UK would agree with I'm just wondering how confident are the panel that the UK would agree with that particularly from an agricultural point of view because of our dependence and you know each of the panelists have mentioned agriculture on a number of occasions but if we go down the road that there's any grey area with the UK to go off and do trade deals of course we want the market to the UK to remain as close as possible access to it but there's no point having access to a market that's undermined by their ability to go off and do trade deals elsewhere that undermines the value of that market and speaking to the UK farmers they're equally as afraid of that as as we are so just again to how confident are they that this regulatory alignment could replace customs union or single market Bertie Paul's question first but Paul I just think that would be dangerous I think we would it would be seen as rattling up then the vote and you know the board of poll and and those issues are just very very very very sensitive so I think we you know there's an argument for looking at these things in the round but I think do it bring them in at this stage would would would complicate and would certainly I think make it more difficult to get the institutions back up and and run it as I understand it we're not privy to what's going on but I think the the Irish government and the Irish officials are trying their utmost to get more substantive evidence from the British of what deal precisely they're prepared to to move that and I think this has continued on now for for a year and and until I presume at official level they're they're arguing these issues out I have no doubt that that's what's going on I I think that needs to be done before the the June meeting because agriculture is effectively the crucial and biggest issue but as of today you're asking the question are we confident the answer is no because the there is no paper if I might have this wrong but as far as I know there is no paper on the British position has been presented to the Irish government as of today so as of today where we cannot be confident I think the case has been well made and the evidence has been given I think the officials are well across the agricultural issue but the British government have not given any clear indication other than the fairly brief aspirations that we've seen now for months and because we're coming to an end a quick comment Bran Cowan on Paul Gillespie's question I mean I agree with Perky on on the the north south aspect but I think that there's a huge need now I think we're starting to be reflected in some of the actors as they suggested yesterday and Connor Brady and Senator McDool this whole question not Michael McDool the question of what's the relationship that we're going to have now that Britain are leaving that's a crucial issue for us and we haven't had this despite the best efforts of people like yourself Paul for many years you've been a minority voice and trying to incorporate the European issue into the domestic politics of the country we don't sufficiently discuss this issue until when it comes to constitutional change or treaty change and then find of course outside that with the public that they're not up to speed because we haven't incorporated these issues into our domestic politics sufficiently and show them the relevance of the what's happening at European level to the day-to-day lives of our own people that's a constant problem we've had but I think that you know Jean-Claude Juncker's State of the Union speech last last year where he's saying you know we need to have a review of what it is the Europe wants to do and what areas wants to do it I mean the question of a digital union the question of an energy union the question of the mechanism that we had for the for the crisis being transferred into a European monetary fund type arrangement there are a whole range of major policy questions a banking union for example a whole range of major policy questions that have to be addressed coherently by the 26th right and that'll need a lot of discussion here as to who our our you know who our comrades are going to be in the discussions that would take place John a last and quick point particularly on Paul's question about do we need to start talking for instance about a united earlier well I think the advice that's given to a barrister who's interrogating a witness don't ask a question unless you know of the answer is going to be applied to this to engage on a speculative voyage of discovery about all sorts of constitutional possibilities I think would be potentially quite risky for all the reasons that Bertie just gave because it would again divide the community in Northern Ireland even more radically between the two in my view the future a peaceful future for this island is has to come in stages and the first stage has to be a creation of a mutual sense of mutual identity between the two communities in Northern Ireland that they come to feel that they have more in common with one another which they do than they have with either here or London and on that will from that will grow a sense of self-confidence and collective decision-making from which will grow the possibility of a decision that might work okay but to pose a question prematurely in a fashion that would simply divide opinion in Northern Ireland in Northern Ireland on traditional lines no matter which way the vote went no matter which way the vote went could be deeply destructive okay we will end on that note and I'm going to ask the three Tishi to just remain on stage for a moment because having heard the voices of experience in Ireland and later on of course we're going to hear some of the most experienced figures on the EU stage but what about the next generation we're now going to hear emerging voices on the future of the EU in 2050 five students from leading universities on the island of Ireland with their vision for the future of the EU and our first speaker is from Trinity College Dublin she's Mary Sophie Hinks a PhD candidate and she's going to talk about embracing difference good morning dear Tishi dear ladies and gentlemen as it is impossible to predict the future looking into the past sometimes offers insights that prove valuable in how we imagine a European future doing so allows us to detect moments when indeed the future inevitably was changed one of such moments took place right across the street here in Trinity College Dublin at the end of the 19th century 10,000 women signed a petition demanding access to college the efforts met unsurprisingly fierce resistance but they remained resilient finally in 1904 the board was forced to relent when it received a royal patent allowing women to receive full degrees but this particular moment had far greater implication than to astonish conservative professors and to allow Sophie Bryant the first female doctor of mathematics to ride on her bike over campus the decision to make Trinity a mixed campus supported the course of female students all over Europe between 1904 and 1907 Trinity played host to the so-called steamboat ladies female graduates from England who were denied degrees by their own universities those 722 women boarded a boat to receive the degree they had earned alongside their male peers the anecdote of the steamboat ladies is not exclusively a tale from the past about female empowerment or their strive for equality in Europe but it comes as a reminder for the future that it is not the individual even though many of those women pioneered and excelled in their field but that cooperation is essential for the success of all earlier than other they realize the only alternative in a globalized world are various forms of interaction but recently looming Brexit and fierce resistance by Eastern European member states to accepting refugees from water and Syria and Libya exposed the limits of the idea of a shared European identity in this distinct moment of crisis it seems crucial to keep the courage of the steamboat ladies in mind that only a Europe that is not afraid to gravel debate and argue about difficult topics and I think in the next 25 years all topics be they of political social or economical nature will be challenging and to explore existing differences while being willing to be persistent and resilient when it comes to defend essential values as it's strongest shaping the future for the better Sophie Bryant once described the Irish as a community of spirit being Irish in this sense equals with being European a better wish for the future of Europe is hard to find and it is upon us now to find a steamboat that keeps this very spirit alive for all of us thank you very much and our next speaker comes from nui manuth Michael Barrett is an undergraduate and he's going to speak about defending democracy ladies and gentlemen in this day and age with the return and consistent upsurge of identity extreme and populist politics it all too often seems to me that with each and every electoral process the democratic world seems to be crossing the Rubicon into a world of the unknown democracy both within and outside of Europe is in a state of stagnation within Europe and neighbouring states from Victor Orban's Hungary to Putin's Russia and Erdogan's Turkey backsliding into the authoritarian politics of old persists often born out of the genuine concern insecurities of normal citizens unsure of their futures and no longer trusting of mainstream democratic politics a theme evident throughout the democratic world this is a particular challenge for the EU that of Hungary and Poland had been held up as stellar examples of what an EU guided transition to democracy could achieve the extent of rule of law backsliding and sorry has been truly alarming and has caused doubt of the EU's capacity to positively impact political and societal transformation there should be a clear link established between the dispersal of EU subvention principally structural funds and compliance with rule of law in the member states if the EU is anything it is a union of rules and rule of law and if those rules are subject to such serious violation the union itself shall be hollowed out of its founding democratic impulses but it is due to this very reality that the EU must act and act now with the ambiguous status of the United States which looks to be returning to a protectionist state of isolation and the somber exit of the UK from the European Union the growing influence globally of authoritarian states be it the people's Republic of China or Putin's Russia on the international stage which need not acknowledged out of human rights or democratic politics in their affairs such as global trade it is therefore in my view the EU's responsibility if not duty to unite reassert and defend itself as a bastion of democracy on an international stage now and into the future this really means standing up for articles two and six of the Treaty of European Union namely the respects for human dignity freedom democracy equality upholding the rule of law and fundamental rights therefore the Europe of 2050 that I would like to see is one in a world that revolves less around leaders and leadership and more around civil society activism engagement and impact on politics both within Europe and globally thank you our third speaker is from University College cork she's Kathleen Jeffers an undergraduate and her theme is going back to basics thank you ladies and gentlemen my vision for the European Union in 2050 is a braver European Union a stronger actor on the international stage by 2050 we will face new and different global threats in areas such as cyber security climate change economics security and migration the European Union of 2050 must first and foremost have the capacity to protect its citizens from these threats and to robustly represent the views of its member states on the international stage the European Union needs to demonstrate collective strength and shared resolve in order to achieve that by strengthening its internal basis by revisiting and respecting its core principles the EU can be more outward looking and be a greater force for good in today's troubled world I believe that the European Union needs to go back to basics in order to achieve this back to the original conception of the Union and the principles upon which it was founded namely the Treaty of Rome and the Four Freedoms article three of the Treaty of Rome tells us that the activities of the community shall include the elimination as between member states of restrictions on the import and export of goods and the abolition as between member states of obstacles to freedom of movement for persons services and capital clearly the Four Freedoms present different challenges to different member states however it's vital to the future success of the European Union that we strengthen these critical building blocks to achieve a more cohesive union better able to develop and prosper in the future in the European Commission's white paper on the future of Europe Jean Claude Younger says that it's time for us to remind ourselves of the values that bind us together and I agree with him in my opinion the unwillingness of member states to fully accept and implement the Four Freedoms has led to the weakening of the foundations of Europe I wholeheartedly believed that my vision for the European Union in the year 2050 a braver stronger actor on the international stage tackling the global threat of 2050 can be achieved but it can only do this if the Union's fundamentals are sound if the EU goes back to basics as a young person in today's Europe my horizons are international for the European Union to thrive develop and meet future threats and challenges it needs to adopt a similar outlook going back to basics can help shape a better future for me for you and for all of the citizens of Europe thank you and our fourth speaker is from University College Dublin he's Sean Dunn a master's student and Sean is going to speak about security a good morning we've been tasked with the job this morning of looking into the future and envisioning what the European Union is going to look like in 2050 of course none of us has a looking glass but given our current climate all we can do is take an educated guess as to what we may expect by no means is this an easy task we live in an age now where many things are changing sometimes by the second and we can expect this to continue into the future when I sat down to write this over the weekend I told about being 28 years old and a part-time master's student in politics in ucd but by 2050 I will be 60 years old and many things will have changed there are many pressing issues within the EU presently but what has struck out in my mind for some time now is the ever-growing concerns surrounding security and defence in Europe for the first time now terrorism is seen as a major challenge facing the European Union in our current climate terrorism is now top of the issues that citizens within the European Union cite when it comes to challenges currently being faced immigration which has been a top concern since spring 2015 is now second the most frequently cited challenge terrorism is well ahead of the economic situation through my work as a journalist over the past number of years breaking news stories of terrorist attacks have sadly become all too common in newsrooms across the world in 2015 the horrific tax on the city of paris and the battle clown theater broke as I sat on the late news desk 130 people died that night in one of the worst terrorist attacks to hit Europe in the following days I was tasked with interviewing survivors including Irish people and hearing these stories makes me realise that one of our greatest difficulties facing Europe is now protecting its citizens from future attacks like these London Madrid Paris and Germany have all been targeted and this has sent ripples of fear across Europe but it is our job as the future voices within Europe to try and stamp out this fear we need to continue to play security and protection of EU citizens and on a global level to the forefront of society I think as we look ahead to the years ahead and we want what we want to have achieved by 2050 it is important that public support for migrants remains in sharp focus since the series of terrorist attacks that have swept Europe in the past two years support for migration has dwindled and this is an issue that we the future voices must keep a watch fly on in the years to come these attacks have exposed a lack of security cooperation among European nations and this is what we the future voices of the EU must work hard to improve upon and I feel greater lines of communication and transparency must be kept open between member states in the years to come thank you and finally from Queen's University Belfast Lisa Whitten who's doing her PhD and Lisa is going to speak about the EU a framework for connection thank you as I'm now the last obstacle between yourselves in a cup of coffee I'll keep this brief in 1978 John Money set forward his conviction that by holding to new fixed principles created to guide European integration we on the continent would inevitably be led to United States of Europe respectfully I disagree in our world of hyper connection the international arena is less predictable and more complex meaning that the nature of the state is changing states are becoming less static as our networks identities and affiliations cross cut overlap intermingle and span the globe on this premise I would suggest that the United States of Europe is not inevitable rather that the EU already reflects the kind of open endedness that polities require in order to thrive in the present and future realm of international relations since its foundation there has been a struggle for language over the nature and direction of European integration is this intergovernmentalism writ large or federalism in waiting is the EU your collection of states bound solely by law or a new recon or a new configuration of Anderson's imagined community in this sense the EU has an asymptotic quality it is as a line that tends towards but never reaches its destination under the vision of ever closer union the ultimate goal is unstated it matters not what we become just that we do it together it is a union premised on process a consensus of means but what if the constructively constructively ambiguous lack of destination of the EU were reimagined not as a reason for dispute or issue to solve but rather is the very essence of the whole endeavor a few weeks ago we commemorated the signing of the good Friday Belfast Agreement another constructively ambiguous entity based on a consensus of means wherein the constitutional character of Northern Ireland became subordinate to the ways in which we choose to interact I am both Irish and British I'm a European and I'm from Northern Ireland my collection of identities are made possible in an international framework of multiplicity that the EU exemplifies and should pursue so in short my vision for a 93 year old European union is not more Europe read federalism or less Europe read intergovernmentalism but a third way dynamic Europe a place characterized by its nexus of multiple overlapping and ever-changing institutions institutions that are defined by complexity unashamedly open to evolution and that serve as points of connection and means of collaboration for the diverse group of people and peoples living on the continent thank you very much