 George Bruno for the 21 Report at the 21 Convention Patriarch Edition, and I'm talking with Mike Cernovich. Welcome, Mike. Thank you, my pleasure. Yeah, so we were just chatting a little bit before this about Guerrilla Mindset, which is a book that came out when? 2015, yeah, yeah, and I had mentioned it to my followers, and I I have it as an Amazon link and it is probably one of the only things one of the only affiliate links that I have that just sells month after month after month. It's so relevant. Describe Guerrilla Mindset. It's a great question because the book, as you know, you read it, it's quite complicated. It's part of my life story, part about money, part about health and fitness, and what I wanted to do with the book is take someone and give them a workbook for life, a blueprint for life, for basic and that you can apply always at a more advanced level, and I thought, okay, what is what is it about emotions? What is an emotion? What causes emotion? I would think about this all the time where I was driving a motorbike actually in Vietnam as I was finishing the book, and I just felt really angry. I had no reason to be angry at all. Nobody had gotten a fight with my wife and money was good. Everything was good. And then you realize that emotions are flowing around in us all the time. Why is that? Usually it's because we're not mindful of it. We're not purposeful of it. We're letting this sort of cosmic soup bubble over without any kind of deliberateness or intentiveness to it, and so much of the book is about just being more mindful of the emotions and realizing you can direct these emotions in a positive aspirational way. Yeah, because I love anger. I've always told people if you're a man and you're not angry, then I don't want to talk to you because that means you don't have any intensity because I can work with anger, focused intensity. Yeah, I can't work with the people. I don't know if my life food couldn't be dejected. They don't have that fire inside. The despair. Yeah, yeah, exactly. That's it's not my vibe. Yeah. And with Gorilla Mindset, it's more like you, it isn't how to be an aggressive gorilla. It's more like you feel that rawness inside of you, and we need to control that. We need to focus that. Yeah, I like that. I remember hearing about a young boy seven or eight years old and Philly walking the streets with his father, and he saw homeless people on the sidewalks, and the little boy said, dad, why are these people here? Like this shouldn't be this way, and he was angry. This eight-year-old boy was like mad, and they started a thing called Trevor's House where they feed the homeless and rehabilitate who they can, get them back on their feet, give them a second chance, that kind of thing. Anger was the seed of that great work called Trevor's House because it was channeled in the right direction. Yeah, anger is energy. That's what people don't understand. Some people like being angry because they feel like that's fuel, and that's the wrong approach too. Yeah. The right approach is that focused aggression, focused energy. Most people, they get along and people go, oh, you look angry because they've never met me. If you meet me, I mean you've hung out with me, I've been talking. I don't, I'm a walk around angry, but if you just look at me, whenever by myself, I look kind of like an insane person, right? Yeah. Yeah. Because you're always channeling that focus and focus in your intent. Well, you have a lot of things going on. With Guerrilla Mindset, I do find that it addresses the whole person. I was, we were talking prior to this about how one of the things that really spoke to me was I was the guy that always bragged about, hey, I only need six hours of sleep and a nap. And in your book you talked about it's not cool. You really do need more sleep for regeneration and so forth. And I took that to heart because I felt like you were talking to me. And when I started actually getting eight hours of sleep a night and more, if I could, I actually felt better and didn't need a nap. Yeah, and your skin looks great. You're very refreshed and that's a good night's sleep. People ask me, people assume that I never sleep. They go, how much do you sleep? I go as much as I can. You've clearly never read my book and they go, how do you get so much done? Because I wake up and the minute I'm up, I'm on it. I'm on it. Okay, I do my brain warm up and I'm ready to go. And then all day and when I go to bed, I'm tired. I sleep eight or nine hours a night. I have a whole routine. I love it. And there is this bravado about, and this is so much of society too. And in particular, bravado kind of about bullshit. Oh, I abuse myself. Okay, so you're going to die early. You're going to have a higher cortisol levels. You're going to be less attractive and less focused. It's been proven that sleep deprivation is equivalent to a DUI, driving a DUI. If you have chronic sleep deprivation. So when people say, why are you bragging basically about being an idiot? Bragging about some kind of accomplishment. And that's part of the book. And then the most controversial chapter on the was the chapter on money because there's not really, didn't really fit. But I thought, no, there's a lot of people maybe didn't know this. I had to learn it and I threw it in there. And I've had all kinds of people actually, especially, you know, professional people like you. Say, I didn't even know about a self-employed IRA. I didn't even know all this stuff. So one of my stronger fan bases are people who they just like me. They bought the book. And they didn't even know about all this tax stuff that I put in the book. Yeah, very helpful stuff. I found it to be just a great all around book. And I'll probably end up putting the link for it down below so you can get it as well. So you're an author and a filmmaker as well. Tell us about your latest work. Yeah, I made a movie because people always ask me why they make a movie book. So I'll skip ahead to that question, which is everybody in LA and New York, every douchebag comes to town. I'm going to make a movie. I'm a writer book. They never do. I go, okay, I'm going to be the douchebag who actually writes the book that does well. And I'm going to make the big movie. And I made a movie on free speech, which actually had Candice Owens before she was a big deal and all these earlier people before they really blew up. But the production wasn't there. I felt like I left something on the table. You had Candice Owens before she was Candice Owens. Wasn't she Red Pill Black at one point? She disappeared at the time she was being attacked by everyone. And then I saw this person being marginalized by the left and the right. Everybody hated her. And I could just feel that charisma. And I go, she's going to be powerful one day. I don't know if she'll be a lefty or righty or whatever. I'll be the one guy who's nice to her when everybody's mean to her. And I go outside. She was like, well, who is this guy? And then she met me. She goes, wow, I googled you. And you were apparently this like really evil guy. I'm like, I know it's fake news. And then she disappeared. She comes back as Red Pill Black. And now she's on her own journey, her own hero's journey, I guess in a sense. And so with silence, I felt like, you know, we just didn't, we didn't have the production value. It looked like kind of a PBS news hour special. Why won't you just kill it? I want to have an amazing film that if I never do another film again, I can think I made a real movie. And that's what we do with Hoaxed. Some of the testimonials that I've seen are, it's the best documentary I've ever seen. I mean, I've seen that over and over and over. No, it objectively is. And I can tell you why. I was the producer not the director. So I gave a very, I said, here's what we kind of cover. And I used my network to get people like Jordan Peterson in. So I'm very good at getting people in before they blow up. And they're too important for me. So at the time, Jordan Peterson agreed to Hoax. And he's never linked to it or he pretends he wasn't in it. I was better than him. Because I'm very good. This guy's on the rise. I can kind of tell us the vibe or the aura. And so we got him and we got Scott Adams in. And then I told the guys, okay, you do your thing. It was about six months post production. I'm like, guys, we got to, I get Kickstarter backers, dude, they're nipping on my heels. We got to do something. So I'm driving actually for a Kickstarter dinner with some of the bigger backers. Toronto goes, oh my God, I just saw the rough cut of Hoaxed and it's so good. So I pull over to a gas station and I'm watching on my iPhone and I go, oh my God, this is the best movie I've ever watched. And for me, I have a hard time watching movies because a movie has to be more interesting than Twitter. And how often do you watch a movie that's better than Twitter? That's the test. And I pull her, I was like, oh my God, I'm gonna be late to this dinner. I have to go. And I said, okay, so then we have a hit on her hands. And then I became a little bit more involved and we got to cut it down and other things. So yeah, I can say that with pride because the directors made the movie. I just produced it. How many hours of footage do you have? Yeah, hundreds, 4k. And you and you brought it down to? Two hours and eight minutes. Yeah. And that the rough cut was two hours and 45. Yeah. And we could have done a whole series. Yeah. We could have done six episodes. We weren't really big in the Vietnam War and everything. Right. And then I told the guys, we got to have another two hours and there was some back and forth. And finally, that was, I gotta let them have their two hours and eight minutes. It's almost painful making footage hit the floor. It's like losing a limb, such valuable footage. Yeah. And we had, so then we started releasing the full interviews. Jordan Peterson, Scott Adams, but I didn't know this because I'm not a cinematographer. It takes a week to render some of these interviews. Yes. When the guys, because they shot on a red camera and it was a black magic, they go, oh yeah, it's gonna be a week. I go a week, they go, oh yeah, just to render it. Yeah. So I definitely learned a lot about shooting a real film versus what I'd done before more of an iPhone documentary. Right. Right. And people should do iPhone documentaries, by the way, too. That's, that's part of the gorilla mindset. People go, oh, I want to make a movie. I go, okay, show me your demo reel. Well, I don't have a demo reel. Why? Because you have a red camera. You need a $30,000 camera to shoot a film. You need a 4k. You need every, every bell. You need a light box. No, you don't. If you're not out there on an iPhone, make it happen. Because that's what I did my first documentary was on iPhone. Right. Low budget. I made no money off of it. We did it on probably, I don't know, $40, $50,000 or something. Yeah. Because a director, that's another story. But so I tell people, just get started. Yeah. Very interesting. Very interesting. Yeah. There's no, people have the sense that unless they can do it, like, you know, because you like fountain pens, I love fountain pens too. But when you were giving your talk on the fountain pen, I thought about how many writers who said, oh, I can't write. I don't have the fountain pen and the paper and everything. No, it's not the fountain pen keeping you. Right. I like nice things. But it's not the, you don't have a red camera or your earth, or it doesn't have, you have a fountain pen. Right. There's something else missing. Yeah. Exactly. All right. So we have author, filmmaker. You have done some political commentary as well. Journalist. I made a book on this design. And you observe things. You see through things. Where do you get that, what I would call like super power from? From, so here's what Wayne Gretzky did. He, when he was learning how to, he was a little kid. He would watch the hockey games at night and he would trace on a notepad where the puck was. And he would just do this over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. And then he was, he did more assists than most people ever have points in hockey. And they go, well, how are you so good? He goes, I don't skate to where the puck is. I skate to where it's going. Yeah. So for me, I knew Candice Owens was going to be huge. I knew Jordan Peterson was going to be huge when he was DMing people. Probably DM, DM to everybody, you know, to promote his book and things. And the only reason, because I've just been so engaged and studied so many historical figures and studied people who really made it happen, inspirational people. You like the Arnold Schwarzenegger life path. That's the beauty of America. So you, when you watch enough people and you look at their trajectory, then you just get an intuitive sense, okay, here's where it's going to go. And you read history, philosophy, and you realize that when you read the old books, you realize, oh, the problems aren't new, right? That once you get past the racism or whatever, Aristotle and slavery, it was a different time. But the idea that categories of thought, clear thinking, logical thinking, fallacious thinking, most people are speaking fallacies. You learn about mob rule and democracy. The Greeks were having the same conversations that we had. They didn't call it the electoral college, or the Romans, they called it the Senate. They had their own anti-democratic system. And if you're, you know, you're reading all that, then eventually you go, oh, wow, this is not new here. This is the same as it's always been. It just looks different. Yeah, yeah. More importantly, you are a husband and a father. Father of how many? Two. Two. Yeah, we did a home birth for the second one. That's magnificent. First one in the midwife, two daughters, yeah. And here you are at a patriarch conference. Yeah, there's, I tell people that, because I'm 41 now, and I waited till I was, I don't know, 38 or something, depending on how the dates worked. And I'm glad I did it both ways. I did the thing, the selfish thing, and now I'm doing the parenting thing, which although people say it's unselfish to be a parent, as every parent will tell you, you get so much joy in fulfilling it. It's kind of silly to say it's unselfish because it's very fulfilling. It's the most fulfilling work that I've ever done. Yeah. You know, there's a lot of people that say, and I find this, and we talked about this, like there's so much despair. And I promise that I won't say these words again, because you know, I'm not a big fan of the glossary. But the manosphere, when I talk to people in the manosphere, there is a despair, a darkness. Oh, no, I would never, I would never bring a child into this world the way it is. And I'm thinking, wow, you, it's never been a good time to bring children into the world. And to me, that's the ultimate selfishness and despair and depression and darkness. And here you brought two children into the world with optimism. You are very family centric. Give hope to the guy who has talked himself into thinking that this, that we shouldn't bring a child into this world. Yeah, so my answer to that is a little bit more nuanced because I got away from that world years ago because I just got tired of the negativity and the nitpicking. And then I meet these guys and I go, okay. So before I had children, because I believed maybe we shouldn't have children, there are some issues. But I was in like great shape, making money, running businesses, great dating life and stuff. So the people who have that despair are kind of losers, to be quite honest. It isn't winners, it isn't people with optimism for life and they're just killing it. And they're like, you know what, I'm going to go do my squats, my deadlifts today, and then I'm going to have a great dinner and meet beautiful women and hang out with my friends and everything's great. And that's, but I don't want to give that up to have kids. These are people that are just negative about anything. And my message of optimism to people is, fortunately, based on the truth, which is that there's never been a time in the history of the world, and this is the problem is people don't learn history study philosophy. Unless you were born to a noble family, this is the Western world, there are people probably in India and Pakistan, it's a little more complicated there. But unless you were born in the Western world, there was never a time where you could just be like a regular guy and live a life that people would find unmatchable. There was, you'd be a surfer, a peasant, there'd be all these loyalty pledges and people could send you off to do whatever you want to do. There's never been a time where you go, I'm just going to figure shit out. I'm just going to figure out my life, I'm going to take fucking charge of shit and make it happen. Never in the history of the world. So all these guys are like, oh, I wish I would have grew up in another time. Like you'd have been steamrolled back then. You're pussy today, right? But you think you're going to go back and be in Sparta? Yeah, get out of here. And by the way, the Spartan lifestyle is more idealized probably than it was. Can you imagine the injuries that I read? Oh, what was the book, The Historical Fiction of the Battle of Thermopylae? We can put the link in the below. But the beauty of the book is how it goes into the details of the training and how much you just must hurt. Because you go do squats and deadlifts and you're limping around the other. They're doing that all the time. They were pushing each other into trees, the whole lines of people flowing their trees and stuff. And you think, yeah, you would just have knots everywhere. And it's like they had acupuncture or something. You would just be in some kind of chronic pain every day of your life. And then these people want to sit around and cry all day or nitpick in the comments and stuff. And I just, the way I view it is I'm glad that there are people who want to reach some parts of society, but I just don't care. I don't have time for that. I look at it this way. There's more for me then. Well, you do great work and there's a lot of people doing great work. I think what happens though is, because your audience shapes you. And this is something that people don't understand. You think that when you get into this world that you're just going to tell people what to do. But then you have a stimuli coming back and then your audience shapes you. So me, I'm like, the vibe's bad, right? So I don't want to be around the vibe because that's going to shape me and shape my messaging. Well, I better not say this because then that might offend someone. It becomes even more complicated when you become sort of a whatever public figure. And then you have everybody with all the landmines that you can hit today where you're getting banned and everything else. But there really is never been. This is, you can agree, there's never been a better time in history to be born a man, ever. Women too, they just can't get advice, right? I always think men like to complain. I feel worse for the women because there is no, again, I don't like the term manless here, but there is no women giving each other advice like, hey, you don't have to have kids, but just FYI, if you want to, you ought to do it before you're like 33, it isn't like you can find a man at 35, your fertility, you're going to have real problems, man. So if you want to just yell at it and dance on tables, great, no judgment. But there's repercussions to that. There's no nothing like that for women. That's right. Whereas with men, I can say, look, if you want to be pathetic and go, you know, cry yourself to sleep, go ahead and do it, right? But there's all these different pathways and different men living different kinds of lifestyles. I mean, you have more, I mean, you have Mormons, right? There's Mormons here. And then you have kind of, you know, scumbags or whatever. There's all these different paths for men that it's never been like that before. And then they kind of like want to mope around, but for women, they're only getting a unit message, which is, you gotta, you gotta, I mean, think about this too, is that you're, you know, you're a successful guy. Imagine somebody tells you, oh yeah, you got to go to college. You got to have a career. You got to find a man to settle down and you got to have work-life balance all before you're like 25. Sounds absurd, right? That's what they tell women. That's the messaging for women. And then all these guys want to cry about women and all that. I'm like, well, I know, but a little, a little sympathy for them, a little empathy. They're, at least you got, the men can get good advice. Women aren't getting any kind of good advice. On any given day when you broadcast live, you're rolling the dice. Sometimes you have more people watching you than are watching CNN. And how do you deal with that? Like, I've heard people say things like, they're like, citizen journalists. And I'm like, yeah, citizen journalist. I mean, at least I can learn the truth from someone who's on the street with an iPhone. And I'm watching it. I mean, I watched, I watched a guy get assaulted at an event that was being broadcast on an iPhone. A man that was doing nothing wrong. And I did follow the trial and so forth. And, you know, you're familiar with that, that New York event and whatever. And I thought, no one else, no one anywhere reported on it. And then the silencing of citizen journalists. And they're now starting to have a voice legally. How do you feel about that? Yeah, live streaming is interesting because I pioneered the idea that you just show up and just show people. Just show people. Now everybody's doing it, which is great because it is dangerous. And the issue is that I had anyways, when you have all those live viewers and see the count thing, your brain starts to spin. It does require your brain in a way that I had to learn to manage and modulate. Because it's like a high. It's like adrenaline. There are that many people. And then you feel like you have to say something. And then, as you know, when you're in a stimulated response, your impulse control goes down and you're live. And you're like, well, but you got to be careful what you say still. And so then you have to learn, you know, learn to dial it down a little bit. And the media, of course, they hate that because there's no, there's a scene in hoax. This is the most proud work I've ever done in this. I stream this live at the DNC. So they go to RNC. Oh, there's all these people walking out of the Trump thing. No, it wasn't. There wasn't. 10 or 20 Ted Cruz truthers through a little bit of a fit. Media wall to wall. Something like 1500 delegates at DNC walked out because of the way Bernie Sanders was treated. And I'm out there streaming, man in a suit walks out. Anybody who walked out of this is anti-Hillary hates Democrats. All the cameras go around them and there's a Bernie delegate and nobody, no media there. So I start yelling, literally yelling at the people at Bernie. I go, look at this right now because I'm streaming live. I go, look at this. This is the narrative in real time. This is propaganda in real time. The media is going to pretend like the Bernie people don't exist. And then all the cameras went over to her and started talking to her. And that's why they hate us because that's how you shape a narrative. The narrative is real simple. In any given situation, there are a hundred things you can talk about. Ten good, ten bad, the rest kind of blah. The media only focus on two or three bad things. Pretend like there's nothing else there. So if the media covered this event, they would wait around until somebody got drunk and made a bad joke. And then that would be the story of the event. It wouldn't be the fathers and the praebra. It would be none of that. And when they do a small thing, that scales up and that's what they do with politics. They set the narrative and if you're just right there live-streaming, who are you going to believe me, edited TV or you're going to believe the live-stream that you can watch right now and interact with in real time? The real breaking news is from an iPhone, not from a news organization. Yeah. And you can get there faster. But why do you need, and Tim Pool talked about that, he was in hoax. He's huge now too, so that's another sort of, it was a good get. It's funny because I always think when I do a film and it's done, how many people who are in my film could I get today? And I couldn't get Can of Soans again. I couldn't get Jordan Peterson again. Probably couldn't get Tim Pool again, right? And so then the next project I want to think, well I wonder who I can get now before I, that's how you always want to look at things. Yeah, yeah. Is you want- Be where the puck is going to be. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, excellent. Well I, it's interesting, you can choose to see the glass half full or see it half empty. I tell guys that are going through breakups, even though a breakup is very, very subjective for a man who's going through a breakup. And I joke around and say, you know, there's three billion women in the world and you're worried about one. And you talk about, you know, there's eight other things, but the focus on the two bad things. And that becomes the news story. And I find that you end up focusing on positivity, hope, optimism, and that's kind of like my message. And I think that's why so many people are drawn to you. And I think that's one of the polarizing things, is that you offer hope and optimism and positivity to people. And there's people that are actually trying to stop a positive message. Dude, that's the biggest surprise of all this is, I wish somebody had sat me down when I was like 35 and say, hey, you don't have to tell bad jokes to troll people. Be really positive. You'll actually draw more hate being positive. I was just objectively true. I'm like, these people are snipping. I mean, I'm like, I don't even do anything. I'm super nice, super positive. And it makes them angrier. And then you realize from the mindset work and everything else that it's the concept like state matching. So if you're happy, you want everybody in the room to be happy. If you're mad, you want everybody mad. And when you see somebody happy, that actually makes you angrier. Spiral is you out of control. Why is this person not angry? Like I am. And I sort of talk about like the smiling chimp. Like I'm just a smiling chimp. They're screaming at me and I love you so much. Namaste or even people who show up in real life. I'm like, I love you. Thank you. And they get even angrier. Whereas if I got in their face or something, they would feel like they won because there's a concept. There's language we use. That's what I always tell people to be mindful of is metaphors and how the metaphors are embedded and are deep into our psyche. And one of them is bring them down to your level, right? And we all know that. Oh, yeah, you're right. This guy's just a bad person. They want to bring you to the level. And then that's great. But we should find the aspirational metaphor. Why don't we try to be at a high level and bring people up to our level? So when everything is duality, bring you down to your level. I'm always thinking, well, let's have a more pause of aspirational thing. And that's where I call it the men's internet or the men's corner of the internet goes is there's too many people destitute and in despair because some truths about reality are a little bit sad. It's sad that I'm going to die. I think about that sometimes. Especially not before I had kids, I didn't care. Before I had kids that was like yellow, you know, right, bikes in Vietnam who cares, right? As long as you don't get a really bad injury or something. And then you have kids like, oh man, probably when that DMT hits me, I'm probably going to see my kids and it's going to probably be a very intense and very maybe traumatizing experience as I'm dying or whatever. And then I started this is a very sad thing to focus on. But the duality of that is, but that means if you don't want to die, it means you want to live, right? So why don't you focus less on the impact of, okay, so this means that I enjoy life. So what is it about enjoy about life and how can I build up that better, more aspirational life? And that's where men today go wrong is I see guys complaining. I'm like, dude, you're better looking than I was at your age. You know, like you're in good, I'm like, you have good raw material. With some of these guys I could get like, yeah, I mean, get a fair shake. And I could kind of get it. I don't think anybody should think that way, but I can at least kind of get it. And then I meet these kids. I'm like, wait, you're like physically, you have raw material. If you went to the gym for a year, you'd be pawed on. And that's because they focus on the despair. And oh my God, the women are so broken and blah, blah, blah. Yeah. But the idea though, if the women are broken, which I think the men are broken too, and that's kind of the issue as everybody is, that means that you get to pick and choose who you want, who isn't. And then if men are broken, then that means you're going to be a top commodity. And that's where people should focus on masculinity. And I think that's where 21 convention and other people are realizing that too. The puck is going towards positive masculinity that doesn't tell you you have to live for women. But you should meet a woman. I love my wife. I adore her. She has so much joy in my life. It's unquestionable. But to meet someone like that, you can't be some guy who thinks, oh, I just have to save someone. No, no, no, no, no, no. Your duty as a man isn't to save people from their poor financial choices, their poor emotional choices. That's your duty as a man. Your duty as a man to live a life that's positive and aspirational. And then when you do that, then you're allowed to choose. So for me, I just wake up with so much optimism. Even when I'm going through bad times, because you run businesses, you hit cash flow crunchless. It isn't always fun. The IRS says, oh, you've undercounted, and there's always something. But I have the fundamental belief, which is based in reality, that you're always going to be able to find a solution. It might not be today. It might be three, four, five years. But even if you have a bad condition, I had really bad skin condition, afflicted me for years. But I just knew that eventually I would get something or stem cells, and after years of suffering, I actually found something. It's funny. One of my favorite YouTube channels is Masculine Geek, and it's up and coming. I would like to think that that is where the puck is going to be. And it's three guys, one from Jersey, Salt Lake City, and Seattle. And they talk about old typewriters, antiques, games, painting miniatures, geek stuff. And I don't view them as any less of a man. They're not about TRT deadlifting, picking up girls, that kind of thing. That kind of stuff bores them. And I'm finding it to be refreshing material, and I'm actually enjoying it. And we're thinking of actually having kind of like a geek track here at 21, because I don't want the gamer guy, the skinny little dude, the guy that's not physically blessed and never will be. I don't want them to feel that they're not welcome here, that there's the impression that everyone here is like a Navy SEAL. And masculinity is a spectrum of men. And masculinity is also a spectrum. It's not all TRT and deadlifting and cold showers and that kind of thing. Yeah, and that's where the leadership has to be shown is there's niche marketing without tribalism. So I see so many men, they go over the manly man and look at all these geeks and go, how could you sleep alone? That's my thing. They're their little niche thing and they're into steampump or steampunk, whatever is getting big. And they're into that. I'm not going to go there and tell them you're a bunch of bullseeds or something. That was wrong with you, right? But you see so much of that as the war of the manly men and we do this. And anybody else's niche markets are big. And you're right. One of the big trends that's going to happen is traditionally masculine activities that went away. Cigar lounges, whiskey. I have a podcast actually now where we do whiskey tastings, things like that. That kind of Epicurean is going to come in and so will the hobbyist. One of my favorite YouTube channels is Meteorology. He takes a old butcher knife or something like that and restores it. There's something about the male brain that that appeals to you. You know why it does that? I don't know why it does. But there's that sense to tinkering. So there'll be, you could probably start a YouTube channel where you fix clocks to appeal. I've watched the ones where they put together the Patek Philippe watches. I'm like, wow, this is amazing. And I watch four or five hours of this video sometimes. That's great. So you're right. Those guys are definitely onto something. Yeah, absolutely. Hope, positivity, and optimism. Conversation with Mike Sernovich. Thank you, sir. Thank you.