 Thank you Athena you're welcome. Okay good evening everyone and welcome to the TSO regularly scheduled meeting it is March 9 and is 704 p.m. pursuant to chapter 20 of the acts of 2021 extended by chapter 22 the acts of 2022 this meeting will be conducted via remote means members of the public who wish to access the meeting they do so via zoom or by telephone. No in person attendance of members of the public will be permitted, but every effort will be made to ensure that the public can access the proceedings in real time via technological means. So we will call the meeting to order at 705 p.m. and I'll just do a run through to make sure that everyone can hear and be heard. Andy. Yes, I'm here. Anna. Present. Shalini isn't Dorothy. Yes, as I am. Okay. Paul. Everybody. And our special guest chief living still. I am here. And Athena. I'm here for now. All right, thank you. So with that, I'm not sure if we have anyone with us here but if we have anyone in the audience who would like to make comment and express their views for up to three minutes please raise your hand so we can let you in. No one here. Okay. All right. With that we have no appointments to be better file today, and we will be moving our approval of the March 2 minutes as they were not included to our next meeting on March 23. So then we'll move on to item number five, which is our surveillance use policy. And I believe we have both, we have both on an Athena to help us with bringing up both the bylaw and the memos and reports. I'd like to, at this time, welcome chief living stone and Paul with us as well. If there's anything that you would like to share in advance include make us to be aware of any like sensitive dates anything that you would like to share before we move into questions and comments for you as I'm sure there's quite a few. I'd like to put I'd like to frame what we're talking about tonight so that last year the town council approve a surveillance use bylaw. And under that bylaw is said if we're using any a certain type of surveillance technology that specifically focused on facial recognition or something like that, or could be used that way that we had to bring that policy that that technology to the town council we would do a technology that would impact report to summarize what the what this technology did, and then recommend to you a surveillance use policy, and then under the bylaw that the council has to approve the surveillance surveillance use policy. We would continue using or we this new this technology. And furthermore, if we ever bring in technology that that falls under the surveillance policy bylaw, we would follow the same process if we are want to buy and I'm going to use an example that's very real bodycams for instance, we would before that happens, we would come to you do it technology impact report, propose a policy and then you would go through your process. So, tonight, it's for you to look at the policy, the chief is here to talk about the, and specifically we were talking about the cruiser dash cams, and he'll tell you what they do. When they get activated. And what they do with the info with the recorded information once they have. So with that. Thank you very much for your question and make it will turn it to Chief Livingstone. Yes, please. Specifically to the in car video systems that we have in our cruisers. We were the second. I'm positive on the second police department in Massachusetts I think we were the second police department in New England that actually started using in car video systems. The way it's set up is we contracted with watch card video, some 20 something years ago, which was a contractor that, you know, we worked with who installed camera systems and audio systems in all of our marked units at the time. And the way it works is anytime a officer goes out on patrol in a marked unit and and there are a couple of unmarked units that we use for traffic enforcement that are set up with them as well. The officer logs into the system and it's similar to when he logs into the laptop computer and the cruiser and each officer is designated with that specific system so we know who's using it but when he or she logs in, they really have no control over the system so it can't be manipulated or anything like that. And so, basically, it's really pretty simple. Once the system, the system turns on anytime a blue light is activated so in a cruiser setup. And once you push a button to turn on the blue lights to pull over a vehicle the system automatically goes into record mode. So, and then an officer is responsible for the moment he exits the cruiser to activate the audio system as well so when they walk up to a vehicle after a vehicle stop. It's recording and it's audio activated and they have the responsibility of notifying the operator of the motor vehicle that this is happening. That's our responsibility. People can request that it be turned off but it can't be turned off. That process actually happens at the court system so if somebody doesn't want to be audio or video recorded. Once the vehicle is stopped they don't have the option to off out the officer doesn't. So, they would have that option at the court proceeding if it involved like a drunk driving arrest or the somebody's appealing a ticket that sort of thing but that you know that's really in a nutshell after the blue lights are turned off the video shuts down and the audio is turned off when the officer goes back to the station at the end of the shift. Everything is automatically downloaded so the officer doesn't have the ability to edit or, you know, turn anything off or on it's automatically downloaded to our system at the police station. So, the patrol officer who's actually operating the vehicle really has no ability to do anything with the system other than notify the operator that it's in use. It's really been designated to deal with all motor vehicle stops. Now, there are, there's a process in our system where an officer can activate the camera system if, for instance, it's been used briefly for large scale parties like we've had this weekend where they can activate the camera system and just, you know, manipulate the camera so they could show like a large group of people. That sort of thing but that's really it you can't remove the camera system from the car. You know the officer has no ability to change anything in the system. Everything is really kind of automated so once an officer just stops the car that's pretty much it the system is it is over and done with. There are only three officers who have access to the system so again that's very strictly. They have very strict policies on who has the like I don't even have the ability to access that system so it's Detective Bureau and an officer that oversees the it part of it, and a supervisor. So, I mean that's really it it's not complicated, but it's regulated. Thank you. I have a few questions I don't ask the two technical questions and then go over to Anna so one is so the audio packs that you were talking about that the officers have to turn on when they get out of the cruiser. Is there a way that that would automatically happen safe in event of emergency and someone just had to jump out without having the time to do that is there a distance and then as body cameras were brought up is the current technology use now is that compatible with body camera use or would there need to be a new system used and used and or purchased for that. So, so the audio part of it has to be activated by the officer. So it's not like voice activated or anything like that. When the officer leaves the cruiser they literally touch a button and it starts. And mostly that's because we have to notify the individual that they're being audio and video recorded by law, we have to do that. The vendor. You know, the vendor we started with long time ago. It's called watch guard video. They were bought out by Motorola systems. It was lucky for us because Motorola handles all of our. For many years, as long as I can remember where our contractor for police radios and portable radios. So it was an easy transition for us to switch over from the system we had watch guard to Motorola so all the downloading and stuff was an easy system to replace. So we have to go to a body camera system and I know I put in a request and I think most of you know I put in a request for capital line item for that. I know we have to go out to bid for certain things but Motorola is a major. One of the major players in the body camera systems and somebody that we would be looking to work with. Yeah. So, I have a couple specific questions that we could, if you want to, to handle those but I think one of my main things when we think about this and what I'm going to try to do and I'll ask for accountability from my, from everybody on this call here is I'm going to try to keep this about surveillance use and not about the validity of cams and all of that. But I think my question is that are my, my concern when we think about surveillance use is that the way that dash cams versus body cams function is so different that I'd like to see two different policies on them. And I would, I want to make sure that that's the direction that this is going at some point, or I'd love to ask that to be the direction that this goes because I think that dash cams. And Paul, you can cut me off here and say that is where you're going that's totally fine. And I don't need to go on it. I know it if we go body cams that would require an entirely new process with an entirely new policy, and the chief would have to develop a policy for the police department and then we would have to go through this policy through the bylaw. You have a separate policy it would be two separate standalone policies your friends. Thank you so much that was that was my my number one concern. Okay, so second, I guess can I get into some more nitty gritty stuff is it okay. Okay, so when we're looking through the policy. It says that you store it for seven days, only seven days does, unless it flags one of the other. Like it was a criminal or an arrest was made or something like that in which case you store it longer. Is that correct. That's correct. So if it if it didn't trigger one of those other elements that would have it be saved for longer. Does that mean that civilians would have. Seven days to file a complaint if they wanted that that might include dash cam footage. That's correct. So, after that timeframe we don't have the ability to retract to regain that that information. So, um, Okay, the system we currently have because we are in the process of upgrading it. And I would have to check with our it guys. And the last time I checked with them that was the maximum length that we could hold that information. That may change as the, you know, as the as we upgrade our new to a newer system some of the stuff we have is five to six years old. So we have over the years been upgrading the equipment, because it changes a lot in a lot quickly quickly so I could find that out for you on. It's okay I think it was more of just I wanted to confirm that that would mean that someone would have seven days and to file if they if there were if there were to be a complaint. And I'm not necessarily sure that I have a strong opinion, one way I can argue it both sides right in terms of surveillance and use of data it's better to have it shorter but in terms of accessibility and filing complaints maybe longer so I'm not coming down on one side or another but I was I just wanted to confirm that that's what that meant. And then to that same token is there some sort of notification if that do people know that that data is then saved or downloaded. When you are doing it does that does the person in the video or do all parties in the video know that that data has been stored in some way. Probably not unless it's an arrest situation, and then they wouldn't be notified because of the arrest reports that their attorney would be privileged to so for a for a standard motor vehicle stop. Let's say somebody was upset the way it was handled or they didn't like. Excuse me the way the officer handled it. They would not know necessarily that that data was only stored for that that amount of time. You did pull it so I guess let me let me ask my other little question. Is it really a disk still. It really downloaded onto a desk. No we download and it gets sent directly for so for purposes that will we do quite frankly we do load it downloaded to a desk for our own purposes, because that's the easiest way for us to store or keep things for 20 years. So the other that and that's according to it the most secure way to make sure that it doesn't get lost in the cloud. What we do though for purposes of like DUI's and stuff that gets downloaded directly to the DA's office so they have a copy of it. So then what's the server that we pay for. The server is through Motorola and I mean, and I should have brought somebody on from it here because I mean that's okay. We're paying for the services of storing and downloading. Maybe I can ask a clarifying question. So when you, the cruiser returns from their shift. Yeah, do they have to do something physical to download the information from the cruiser. Is it done wirelessly through the air or do they, how does that work. It's wireless through the air. So the minute the cruiser backs into the back park a lot of downloads to the system. And then if they want something preserved or stored, then they have the option to go down and download it for purposes of 99% of the time, it's for a drunk driving arrest. That's where the inference where the storage is. That makes sense. Okay, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Okay. Thank you. I guess I am confused. It's stored only for seven days, but then it can be stored to a disk for 20 years. I'm just getting a lot of contradictory information here. I think if I were involved in something which luckily I haven't been. For seven days, I might not even know to even think to ask before seven days is up, but some things are stored and some things aren't. And it's not clear to me at all after the last conversation. So is there some things you store some things you don't or all things get stored or some gets started for seven days some gets stored for longer. Yes, sure Dorothy everything gets stored for seven days. And then if we need something for evidentiary purposes like a trial that's going to come down the road in a year for a drunk driving. The officer burns that to a desk. And that goes to the district attorney's office so if there's just a standard police, somebody gets stopped for running a red light. Yeah, they wouldn't, they wouldn't save that material for any longer than seven days. You can get options to store it for longer than that, but you have to pay for it. Mm hmm. So you know right away whether you need to store or not haven't you had situations when you said, Oh darn I wish we'd save that now we see we're going to have a problem. Not just for a reason, not for just a routine car stop now. Yeah, okay. Andy. Well I was thinking about the question first that I know raised and listening to both questions. I guess when you get into this. You have to start with the purpose that's section eight of the bylaw the technology the server. Bylaw 3.59. The purpose of this bylaws to provide to the regulation of surveillance technology acquisition or use by the city known as the town of Amherst, or the use of the surveillance data provides to safeguard the right the individual privacy to individuals right to privacy balance with the need, essentially for public safety. And so I questioned whether we're getting into issues that are unrelated to the stated purpose that was put into section eight of the bylaw. And I guess the other thing to Dorothy is is that is I understand the system, having read the report the only after seven days, because of the limited capacity of the system to save data. There's just a limit to the size of that server or whatever storage is in it, that it has to be burned to a disk. And that's probably I would gather a function that requires personnel to actually do something to burn it onto a desk. So I think that we're dealing with in that is a just the age of the equipment that we have the system we have. So my observations. Thank you. And I had a follow up to the seven day, the seven day questions before going to honest so I thought I like I thought it was spelled out pretty clearly what reasons that the video would be saved. But I may have missed or I'm not sure if it was there. Is it just up to the officers discussion of what they save, or is there like another, another set of eyes that's looking within the department to look at the footage as well. Yeah, so the officer certainly could say to his supervisor or he or she comes back and says, you know, I stopped a car on North Pleasant Street, and it got really contentious is that something we could save. They certainly would have that ability to do that. And then, you know, that would generate a report to me and to the captains like we had something where we felt there may be an issue here. They certainly have that option for sure, but that would be done at like the during the shift. That's not something they would typically say four days later for instance and say, we better save that. And then just last if after that seven days and the footage is deleted and is it gone forever is there any way that you could retract anything. My understanding is it's gone forever. Okay. Thank you. Anna. So I think, Andy, to your point, I, I would argue that talking about the, how the data is stored and, and for how long really is about the, the use of the surveillance surveillance data that that technology provides which is like the second part of that, that purpose statement, because it is how they're using how we use the data and how we access and the privacy of individuals in terms of where that data is stored and for how long. And so I wanted to just kind of explain why my questions I felt were relevant to to this. The only other thing I had was about the public records requests with these types of videos. Does that mean that things are redacted from the video and if so who does that redaction or like blurring or anything like that. So thinking about public records requests of text, like documents and such where things are redacted, and how that functions, if it's a video and if so who does that. And I recognize that this particular question might be in the weeds a little bit more than is necessary but if you feel like entertaining my curiosity and I'd appreciate it. It depends on who would request the video. You know, obviously, if it's somebody who's been arrested and I know you I case they would get the entire video. Nothing would be redacted. If somebody, a third party, wanted to request a vehicle or car stop, there would be certain things that would definitely very it's, it follows the guidelines like a police report. If you wanted a police report of an individual certain things would be redacted. That would be identifying that individual whether it's date of birth name certain things of that nature so, you know, and we do the redactions on that. I also should add that's that per state law. So there we have to follow the state law and redaction stuff so here's where you have to redact here's what you're allowed to give to the public so it's not something we're just picking out of on our own. Gotcha. Thank you. Thank you. I believe. Well, let's go to show me you have an asked question. Sure. Thank you. Um, I think one of the concerns we hear in the community is certain groups feeling over survey. So what's the word surveyed. Surveiled. Surveiled. Okay, thank you. And since it's discretionary for the police person to do the recording. Do we have a sense of in terms of the crime statistics. Do you have a sense of the proportion of recordings done for different community groups or, or just do you have a sense of if that feels like this is being implemented, you know, free from any prejudice or I think I know where you go. I think so they have to, they don't have control over what's being recorded. In other words, any car stop that they make and 99% they don't really know who they're stopping. So they wouldn't know if it was a person of color or white person or male or female. And once they initiate the, the system to turn the blue lights on the camera automatically goes on and they don't have the ability to shut that off. So, um, I think that answers your question. I will, I think it was on a maybe you answered earlier about the storage of video. The biggest contention right now, and I'm going to go off on a little bit of a into the weeds when it comes to body cameras, the, the cost to municipalities for storage of body cameras is really expensive. There are a lot of, there are a number of police agencies that have actually done away with body cameras, Cincinnati, you can Google them since that is being one of them, who was federal mandate to install body cameras and they've since done away with them and it became so expensive for the storage portion of the video and audio of that system so it's the prices are coming down but it is a concern there's no question about it. And Andy I believe you're next. Yeah, I was just following up on who's following me. I had understood you to be concerned that somebody who had been stopped did not get very much notice that they only had seven days to request that they get a copy. Or it might be destroyed. And that's where I was getting into the question of whether in that particular situation, making the video footage available to the individual who has stopped is consistent with purpose. And that was the reason I raised the purpose question. And I'll say, I can't ever recall anybody requesting the audio and video of a car stop, except for the individuals that have been arrested like an OU I case or something or that it just, it hasn't happened. I'm sitting here now I guess I'm a little surprised to say that I would think it would have but all of those public records requests come through my office and I can't ever recall anybody ever requesting that information. Thank you. Dorothy. I'm going to draw attention to three different passages talking about the same thing because I'm finding a little confusing. The officer, I'm on page four, the officer must take precaution to ensure the cruiser with the in cruiser video and audio system is positioned correctly. So that's going back to something that we were told, not all cruisers have the in cruiser video and audio system. And that can present a problem. In some cases, because back now we're on page six, and it says the purpose of the technology is to document through audio and video recordings, all motor vehicle traffic stops for those Mark police vehicles that have in cruiser video and audio systems. So, some motor vehicle traffic stops are not recorded, because the cruiser that pulled them over is not equipped with it. So that that is chance and maybe discretion could be involved there. And then, again, on the last page. Well now this is a kind of like a repeating and this on page two. It seems like they were like the same thing was said twice and this one has a border around the page. This operating directive allows for operator discretion and judgment for the appropriateness of use and enforcement activities and special events. However, there is no allowance for the failure in video and audio record. Each motor vehicle stop. So I guess what I'm getting at is that some cars can do record and some can't, and it's not just the same treatment for everybody. And, you know, we're talking about trying to keep a situation where people don't feel suspicious and don't feel think that they're being targeted or whatever that whatever happens to them is the same that would happen to anybody else. It's not going to be uniform because some cars have this and some cars don't. And so I'm bringing that up just because I could see in some situations that there might be a problem with that so, you know, reassure me. I said that for instance. Quite frankly today I made a car stop. Probably the first one I've made in two years where somebody right part of the Jones library didn't stop for a pedestrian and I was behind them and I pull it over my car does my vehicles does not have an in car video system so the majority of the unmarked administrative vehicles do not have in. It's all of the, it's all the marked vehicles that patrol officers drive and the sergeant the supervisor drives that have them. So, the ones that are going to be involved in motor vehicle stops. Most of the time you're right. Could we do every car yes, it would be a little expensive. But do you see that there could be a prize anyone ever said you targeted me or you didn't video them and you videoed me or have you not had that problem. It hasn't come up yet but yeah I can see where, like even today with me. If somebody wasn't happy the way I handle the car stop they could have filed a complaint for sure. Yeah, okay thank you. I imagine you were probably a little bit irate. I think the person crossing the street was because they had to skiddle across but in the person had a legitimate well semi legitimate excuse but. Yeah, it all worked out. Good. Thank you. Yeah, this is about the complaints process and we don't have a resident oversight board but once we have that is there's something that would go there. The complaints it's right now it says the complaints can be submitted to the police manager human rights and de I. I would, I would assume it would I mean all might have a better. If that's the direction that the town wants to go in the community wants to go in I would assume that would be part of the process sure. Yeah, so I think it certainly could. I think that's a conversation that will happen when we start to work through the police resident oversight board. I just want to put I think something Andy sort of referenced this bylaw was put in place because people were nervous at the town was retaining information for too long. And it would be stored and then brought up years later with oh I've got video of you doing this or that or the other thing or images of you. And that was in concern was how long we were going to be storing it and but it's I think it since this bylaw has been put in place. You know, different things that happen and people are now looking at it through a different frame of reference saying, well, what if people want to protect themselves and in a sense by having this this video reporting of their interaction with the police department. Sorry, go ahead and please go ahead. Oh, and I think from the police officers point of view they see the police officers I've spoken to one body cams because they feel like that would enhance their protection for and, you know, they're proud of how they do their work they want to be reported and blah, blah, blah. But, you know, I think we see body cams. It's been really useful in a lot of incidents where it was, it's been impugning of police actions. So, yeah, I can just tell you up when it comes to the police officers. Let's say there's a cruiser that's, but the video system is down. They prefer not to take they want to be they want their car stops bitty to be audio and video recorded. Right. It's a protection. Yeah, can I just ask a question kind of follow up actually it's a related question that the, you know, we had sent out Lynn had sent out an invitation for questions around this and I was wondering if the sponsors of this by a lot because do they feel like this report is addressing the concerns for which this bylaw was written. And I think Paulie was sort of alluding to that, but could we hear from anyone else. Any other questions. I don't know if any other questions came to Lynn. I honestly don't remember who the sponsors were since this became a council bylaw. And then Mandy and Mandy Joe and Pat d'Andalus and I had, I had asked Lynn to send the question to the counselors and there were none that had come. I mean, just the because we, one of the things requested was the, the crime report or something. And I'm wondering what we've been provided is that in, is that what they were looking for. It seems really very general the crime statistics. And so, you know, that a crime statistics the in cruiser videos deployed in police cruisers. And, I mean, this, like, what they thinking of getting more specific reports there or was this sufficient. I think that's a good question. This is the first time we've done it. And so we put together what we thought was in response to the bylaw I read the bylaw very carefully. Tried to align the we have a policy, the police department already had a policy. So we applied the policy the police department had to the policy that would apply to the bylaw so they were pretty much aligned. And it also says this actually is inadequate we would like more information, give me some direction and we can work on that. And also so you know I did meet and talk with Mandy Joe about this and you know their perspective as well as paths and so some of the point of tonight's discussion was looking at them and looking at what has to be included, and you know what they may have questions about and think should be included as well. And I was just at a Nica that, you know, we, we review policy our policies every year. There is something that the town council is like hey, we're not comfortable with this in the Amherst police department policy. Have you guys thought about this that's something we could certainly review look at entertain. Most of our policies are based in best practices nationwide so you know we're not obviously not the only police department that uses in our video systems. A lot of it is generated from and now a lot of our policies in Massachusetts have been reviewed by the post commission so they will make recommendations so you know the Amherst town council is not the only one looking at this I guess is my point. So if you guys have questions or recommendations that you think might be something you would want to entertain I mean that's doable, you know not saying we would switch everything that you want but we would certainly have that conversation. Okay, and just, just a quick follow up to your point so I also had a question about in the, so that when, when I think that it was in the bylaw that there would be a request for crime statistics. Is that so were those statistics are what they are your point of the state so are are those categories if they are categories are they determined by the state, or nationally or, or does the the APD decide what those statistics would be it sounds it sounds like from what you just said that it was by by state or nationally. So, a lot of the stats. Well, it's a little, it's everything. So the federal government requires us to submit certain stats and the state requires, you know, submit certain stats, and then we give to the town like for instance, you know, Boston, maybe not keep stats on. Open container violations right that we would so but we're all required all police departments are required to do the same thing at for the federal and state level. And then each independent office municipality will keep their own stats on certain bylaws. I just add to that so I think you know that was a question I had when I wrote this the crime statistics. It was the way it's written it's it's sort of the way I read that it's like are we putting cameras in a certain neighborhood to surveil people, you know, or something like on the bike path because there's been a series of crimes and then then the, that question is what crimes have been committed there that makes you want to put a camera there. Since these are deployed townwide and can be used anywhere. I didn't really know what to put in there for crime statistics if there were things that you wanted we can certainly get that information if it exists and put that right. Thank you. Anna. I'm going to kind of play off some of my thoughts here and it's again it's not an ask it's more of I'm curious if this is what, because you're right I mean when when you read to a of that of the bylaw talks about if applicable crime statistics for any locations the technology will be deployed. This is a movable technology. I do think that it would be beneficial to. I'm going to say it and I am not. I'm not actually sure if it would be beneficial or not. But if we think about where this has been deployed it's pretty much almost every traffic stop. I would say based on this but am I correct that you have this in 12 cars based on the financial section said we have 12 systems. I'm sure that's accurate. And again, from time to time it may change. You know one may be broken there might be 10 on one particular week but it and generally speaking 12 mark cruisers would be what we've we've contracted for and pay for. Because I know I mean it's not I think this is more a more a look at the bylaw itself and I'm not trying to dig into that but I think that's more helpful for us to know especially for this type of technology is you know how many systems are out there and and you got to it in the financial part but you could have explained the financial part without necessarily saying that and so I think Paul for for our information. I'm probably going to be more helpful so that we know how much data collection technology is out there in terms of that is is surveilling. You know I think that in terms of crime statistics, it's beneficial it would be beneficial to know where these were deployed. But I also suppose we could just look at general crime statistics for the town to know that because they should be used in most stops, if that makes sense and and and I feel like I don't even know if that would be helpful or not because it's. Like, I think that gets it generally more of the question of where our stops happening broadly dash cams or not and so I don't actually know that that's super helpful for surveillance. I mean we track that as part of our data collection for racial. Yeah, right. So we track where people make car stops annually and the demographic of those stops and we publish that so that's available. Yeah, because I don't know if there's any rhyme or reason to where officers make crime. I mean we make vehicle stops we usually go where the public wants us to go. So like, when they say hey look everyone's speeding on Bay Road will tell the district about the officers. Yeah, exactly so you know Lincoln Avenue I bet you there's a bunch of them on Lincoln Avenue just this past week, we did a whole bunch of on Henry street for the common school so. So it might be helpful if we think about the I guess I'm trying to go back and I'm keeping Andy in mind as in terms of really staying to the purpose if we think about the purpose being understanding where and or how and how much our residents and visitors are being surveilled. It might be beneficial if in those stop in that stop data, we include something of was this recorded. And if we eventually do have body cams on every officer or cruiser cams in every car, then it becomes a moot point but because we don't right now. I think it might be worth adding, like as a checkbox or something into that data so that we can, we could look to see if there are some areas of town. Oh shoot, sorry I froze. If there are some areas of town where surveillance is happening more than others, if that makes sense. Yeah, so I think. I'm getting. We don't surveil anybody for on vehicle stops. You know, that's, I mean, I guess I'm being, I'm a little confused about maybe the bylaw and what an in car video system does. You know, the way this was originally proposed to me was facial facial recognition. It doesn't have that ability to do that. You know, maybe I should have brought a standard vehicle stop along with you. You're most of the time you can't even tell who the individual is in the car, because the camera itself is in the is mounted on the dashboard of the cruiser. You don't know even know who's being stopped. So there's no surveillance of an individual. So there's no body camera on an individual. There is what you're what you're seeing is it's really about officer safety. And then the conversation between the officer and the individual you never see the individual's face in a vehicle stop. I think the way that our bylaw defines it, it includes this. I mean, it specifically does say vehicle cameras, but I think that it might. Even though it's not necessarily those like super clear identifying features like you're talking about, it might still kind of cover that idea of primarily intended to collect retain process or share audio visual location or skipping a couple, specifically associated with or capable of being associated with any individual or group so I think that if you could tell it's not necessarily just facial recognition but if you could tell who the person was because of the video. I think that's what makes it fall under. That's my interpretation but I see Andy has his hand up and so he might have a different interpretation. No, I was just thinking that this is an interesting conversation and raises a question of whether we should be looking at the policy again and commenting on whether the policy is what we really think is most important. And what I've the example, the chief was giving about when somebody stops you can't see their face he can't use facial recognition. Well, the identification of the individual is only going to come today, when they have the driver's license and that's not something that I understand to be attached to the video it's attached to the assume the ticket that's being issued or a rest report. And if a person doesn't have identification, then there's a whole other set of circumstances that start applying. But it really has nothing to do with the video itself so might be worth thinking rethinking some of these issues I think that the other thing that I've observed in this conversation is that we have, you know, again as the chief said in a different context, the circumstances of how people react to the importance of videos has changed from when, you know, even a few years ago, because of what has happened in some very unfortunate situations around the country, not locally. And this made people very nervous actually, a little bit local to when you go back to last summer. So, we probably on look at it but I really want to also pause to thank both the chief and time manager because I think that it was a report that was consistent with what was requested and it's been a very helpful report because it has given us the ability to not just look at that particular system, the vehicle recording system, but also to think about the bylaw again. So, I do want to make sure that we thank Scott and Paul for providing this report. Strongly agree. I would also like to express our thanks and just a couple of comments I think we're talking about a few different things here. The way I've read the report and the bylaw and in seeing though I must say I haven't taken the cruiser drive to see what these what this camera looks like through your car but even if we see the news or some, you know, caught shows and we, you know, see what we look what this looks like though there are some entertaining videos on the internet, you know when some people get out, and then you have interactions but I think there's a huge difference between this type this use and surveillance and facial recognition equipment has been, you know, clearly linked with racial profiling because it's just off, you know, and it really doesn't work for a lot of people it can be confusing. But here, I understand if you have a stop and someone is doing something speeding or whichever to be stopped you most likely would not see who that person is until there's that interaction, right, and then that interaction is recorded. You know, to Andy's point about also body hands which have either saved many lives, held many accountable and, you know, I know lots of people talk about just 2020 George Floyd, but before that, there were a lot of horrific encounters if you're talking about, you know, the of the George Floyd that were captured, you know, years before us and ongoing so, you know, I would also like to express thanks for, you know, to both Poe and Chief Livingstone for I think what was a very clear proposal for us to think about it but also to keep in mind the difference between surveilling people, surveilling individuals, surveilling groups, surveilling neighborhoods and dash cams and body cams for safety of both the officers and the individuals that they interact with and and the record keeping that they provide and how much that we have seen and learned and witnessed. And, you know, I mean, and we have had plenty of you know we've had enough issues in Amherst history and as of late where if we had, you know, recording if we had body cams, we probably would have had a lot less questions or time around certain issues so I would just like us to keep those in mind. Yeah, I, you know, I'm always grateful for trying to break myself of calling you only chief but I'm very grateful for Scott's willingness to kind of go back and forth on this I think it's been really interesting. Our surveillance technology by law is is much more broad than than just facial recognition and I think that that's, you know, to Andy's point. If that means we need to revisit that means we need to revisit but I really do think that if, if dash cam videos didn't help us. If you couldn't identify who a person was with the dash cam video and other supporting, you know, whatever, then we wouldn't be doing them and so you know, okay that's a little bit broad but you know I think that there's, there's still an ability to roughly tell who a person is and so I think that, you know, it is still surveilling in that sense of it's collecting data on someone's actions right and so based on, again based on the way that our bylaw defines it I do think that that is what I that's why I'm I think about kind of that that check mark of where it's occurring in terms of if we were tracking that on our stops. I'm not necessarily expecting to find anything, but I do think that it's helpful, given that we don't have it in all of our cars to just so we that we can say, you know, we're not only sending the cars with surveillance to this area I know you're not like, I know you're I think that that's something that that could be helpful in terms of the data part of this, this report, going forward if it's not a location based technology that if that makes sense. And again that's that's more about how we collect the reports it's not really about the actual policy. Thank you. Thank you. Dorothy. I just have a totally different track. Chief you said you like Motorola and it would be there very good in the next technology might be using my mind immediately goes to don't ever put all your eggs in one basket companies buy sell and die. And I was thinking what would happen if you had everything and really working beautifully integrated with one company and that company disappears it goes bankrupt is bought out by somebody. And you wouldn't have any technology so I just wanted to put that kind of thought out. Yeah Dorothy thank you and that's happening with our radio system so we have a capital request and it's a couple of years down the road. It's the company that almost 90% or maybe it's 80% of the police departments use in New England or going out of business and basically gave us five years to fix things. That's good. Let's give you a chance to catch up on that. Pretty much. Yeah, so yeah it does happen. The original company we contracted with watch guard video was bought out by Motorola so yeah it happens. Yeah. Okay. Well thank you. You're welcome. Andy. I'm getting back to what Paul's request was and I think I just want to put a motion floor so we can focus on what the purpose of this discussion wasn't there. I'm making I'm making a motion to approve the surveillance use policy or increase your video and audio at the police department. Second. And I think we'll repeat motion Andy. Yeah it's just a straight out of the first paragraph in the memo that we received. Paul dated December 5th. 2022. And this to the town council and I think the only thing that I was uncertain about is whether we are approving or we're recommending that the town council approve. But the request was to approve the surveillance use policy for increase your video and audio. Yeah, I understood it as we were recommending, we would recommend that the counselor then I change it with the permission of the seconder to recommend to the town council that it approved. That's fine. We can't unilaterally decide things. That's okay. Well, the memo says to town council. So it's right there on the memo that the town council is the one that's going to be voting on it finally so actually have to look at the by a lot to get the answer for sure but which I didn't do in the few seconds that I think about where we were going with this. So do we call the question or what do we do. That's a little teeny question I'm sure that this is the case of this is too cheap now. If there was a public record request from the public. Would it go without saying that if there were minors involved or anything that that they would be bored out or Yeah, so we would follow the same guidelines that we do for just normal request that minors can't be identified. Okay. All right, just start. Okay. We're ready to move on and call the vote so shall I name this Dorothy. Yes, Andy. Yes. Anna. Yes. Yes. Thank you so much for that and and congratulations sheep living stone on your retirement and your service generous for 46 years. I did not realize you grew up with the department. I kind of kept it on the down low so Thank you so much for joining us and you're more than welcome to stay with us but we've taken up so much of your evening. And just so you know my daughter confiscated the nice cap that you gave me from you gave it to me and she took it over so I'm happy to hear that it will make sure you get it replaced. Thank you. Take care you guys. See you. Just one one comment. In the report should we just write that that we voted in support of it but just get that clarification maybe from the sponsors whether that crime is that because I actually am good with the answer you gave Paul that the intention of that was to just be like this is being you know you know where is it being used and it's being used everywhere. But I think that's the only point that we may want clarification from the sponsors if that is what the intention was and is this answering is this response answering that what they were looking for. Maybe we maybe we can just send that that information out again so the council is aware. Thank you. Okay, so we will move on to the open meeting law update which may not apply to us because after our meeting on March 23. We do not meet again until for 20 April 20. But in the, if it does happen that we need to accommodate and we need to meet in person. I just wanted to get get a sense from the committee you know how everyone feels what anyone you know does anyone have issue with meeting in person if we have to. And then of course, you know if anyone would be out of town. You know for April 20 or, you know, during that time. And just you know open up to any you know just general thoughts about it. Not out of town and we'll wait and see I guess. Yep. All right. And that is better everyone is good to meet in person if we have to if that does happen. And I would just say, oh sorry, Paul. Yes, okay. I would just say that you know we totally expect them to do something. You know probably extended. What happened last time is they didn't act right by March 31, you know whatever the date was. So we have shared out information that can be posted. On on on meeting notices and that could transfer into in person or virtual depending on what happens with the law. Okay. All right. So there's not. Are there any announcements. The Amherst High School Musical is happening this weekend which is very exciting. And one of my one of my old high school friends is the now the dance teacher and he's very proud of all the dance numbers but given the current situation with the teachers doing work to rule they're really finding themselves in a pinch in terms of ushers and support for the, for the production this weekend so if folks are interested in in supporting in this way and serving as ushers or going and watching the musical as well. So I think that is welcome and you know I don't know where to send you exactly but I can tell you roughly where to go which is to reach out to the folks in the performing arts at the high school. If you're interested in serving in that capacity. Thanks on and we have the Tibetan flag raising tomorrow at 9am. And I think Andy you are next. I guess I should just briefly report and Anna who was there too so she can also add to it. The Transportation Advisory Committee met immediately before this meeting, which actually, I might note is their standard practice and could be a problem if we have to go to in person meetings. But I don't know if we're going to be able to cover the event be logistical barrier because we were also supposed to have one member of our committee be less on which is right now me, but I know is there also because she's a co sponsor of the lighting bylaw, which are lighting policy which was the topic of discussion today. And I think we'll leave it for attack to give their ultimate report on it, because that's the appropriate thing to do of course. They tended to look at it from the traffic safety and pedestrian safety perspective, I think was dominated their discussion, and they were not focusing on the other part of the purpose, which was the sky, the light in the sky. So, but we'll attack make this report and I just wanted to at least give that much report. Thank you. Dorothy. So I want to ask Anna some things about the musical I have tickets for Saturday night, and may not be able to go. But if I do go, I could certainly usher. I was coming back from Paris, and I want to see my granddaughter who's only may only be available for me that day. So in which case, I would love to go and see the show and usher it on Sunday. Now is that a possibility, but when I go I will usher. I believe so but let me really quickly Dorothy look up the the person that you should get in touch with because I heard the second hand and so I'm asking on and I'll send you let me look it up really quick and get right back to you. So I also want to say one thing. I used to have a terrible time trying to find out when the show was I would call the school I would go online I'd look at the calendars and I could not find it. I think they went to event bright event bright now emails me and tells me. So this is, I've only been here 12 years, trying to find out when the shows are because I go to high school shows. And so tell your friends that that made a big difference because it. I had no idea the show was coming, but then I get the little notice. And this is new and good use of technology for the school so. So if you go to ARPS.org slash ARHS slash performing dash arts. Okay, start that again please. Yep, of course, ARPS.org. Okay, slash ARHS. Dash. Dash arts dash line not the. Not the word. Okay. Yes, right, right. Right. Yeah. Okay. I have a couple of little quick interesting ones that are going on with the town I was invited to, I participated in a class at Amherst College and the Native American studies and there's actually a project going on what they're doing. It's a picture book. And they're co-ordinating with fourth graders at Wildwood Elementary School. And Wildwood, I just loved that and, and then afterwards I was able to see, there were some great exhibits around the museum museum there one was James Baldwin and other was a black art matters. Students there and they had featured our Alyssa, our own Alyssa here from Carefree Cakerie, the new bakery coming to the Mill District and last and speaking of street and sidewalk safety. So we're going to be talking about the next district tour. We'll be having the next community walk on Wednesday, that is March 22nd at 6.30pm and we will meet at the corner of Kendrick Park by the rotary and we will be walking through Lincoln and Farring Street. So Dorothy I'm sure you and I hope that you and Jennifer and anyone else will join as well. Yeah, I don't have the details on that I don't. Wednesday, March 22nd, I'll email you. Definitely be interested. So I would just comment about the exhibit at Amherst College I went to the opening, and it was very exciting and well done. I love the ink drawings of James Baldwin. There were so many people there I couldn't get to hear Hilton Alls that were just all the young people crowded around. But there is a video presentation kind of like a puppet shadow play by and my mind is blank but she's a famous young black artist who does cutouts little black and white silhouette cutouts. And then she did them in a shadow play and it's, it's, it's absolutely incredible and I hope it's still there. It was there for the, I was there for the opening of the black arts matters and so it's like the three versions of the motherland is what it's called. Yes. Okay, it's really incredible question I love puppets and all that kind of stuff. It was it was pretty great. So if there are no other announcements are our next agenda items are on for our next meeting on the 23rd, we will revisit the proposed amendments to bylaw 3.33 refuse collection and recyclables, and we will be joined by zero waste Amherst for the presentation. And there may be a street lights going on there as well. And they are ready for that time. So but those are just upcoming. Great. With the presentation you mean the survey that they did so they'll be sharing the results from that right. Yes. Also, I will put together all the questions so far that we have but if you can think of any and I will send you all the list of questions that we discussed last time and if anyone wants to add anything before then I send it to ball. I'll try to send it today. Thank you for your lead with this and all the work you're doing and Andy and the rest of the sponsors. Okay, so with that, wishing everyone a great evening. Thank you. Have a good night.