 Rollin rollin rollin rollin go coffee go coffee go Look like I'm wearing a toupee today. I don't know what happened to my hair Rollins I Really should get my haircut this weekend, and I don't want to I Really should start on my taxes. I don't want to Yeah One of these days, I'll grow up and get a real job Don't do that. Yeah It is terrible idea Although it would simplify things I put this Apple thing in my chronology of tech history document. I feel like yeah, it's not a big Because like Apple is gonna take a stand I Mean it's gonna go on for a couple of years We're not gonna talk about it every day for the next two years. I just promise you that It's big just every Friday Every Friday until we've drained Len of every possible idea for illustrating this Come on you guys talk about something else. We're gonna really talk about the encryption part a lot something really abstract Hey guys, did you know that today is my defer anniversary? What's a good anniversary? That's my wedding anniversary, but we're deferring it to a TBD later time That's working. Oh That's funny. I've been married six years. Yo, whoa Congratulations. Yeah, I've been together 15 years. Yo I've been together about the same amount 16 15 and a half years. Oh Man, I've been married for 22 years. I've been married. I've been married though for 12 years I got married in 93. So I got married in 03 10 years after you So, yeah, so 20 it's gonna be 23 years this year Yeah, you are you're married to your job Married to Alright, we we should we should do some Let's get really let's get let's get real in here Everybody done groaning. Yes the Daily Tech News show show me the Daily I was born Tom the Daily To support Tom go to Daily Tech News show comm slash support Okay, now you can press the button Tom This is the Daily Tech News for Friday February 20th 2016 I'm Tom Merritt joining me today Darren kitchen founder of hack 5.org and wow The world is on fire about Apple and encryption and the FBI and it's fan mail Friday Let me tell you Darren. I can I'd give you one guess what all the fan mail is about I have an idea that we're reliving the crypto wars and it's gonna be amazing So let's just light it on fire and do it. It's like Portlandia. It's the 90s all over again And here to illustrate the abstract concept of Apple fighting an encryption battle is Len Peralta. Good to have you background Oh, it's good to be back the dream of the 90s is alive in Portland and in Cleveland. Yeah Well, we got some headlines to get to to catch you up on the latest developments with Apple But also lots of other cool stuff happening as well. Mobile World Congress is ramping up We're gonna talk to you a little bit about that. Let's start off with the headlines All right, so here's the latest in the Apple FBI encryption battle Apple has been asked by California court to aid the FBI in Crocking the password of an iPhone 5c if for some reason you missed that news That's what's going on Apple had until Tuesday to respond to the court's order But Reuters now reports the company has been given a few extra days They now have until Friday, February 26th to respond a New York Times report claims Apple asked the FBI To issue its request for the tool under court seal And it was when the FBI decided to make it public that Apple then went public with their response Apple has retained Theodore Olson who won the Citizens United versus the Federal Election Commission case in 2010 and Media lawyer Theodore Butros both of them prominent free speech lawyers leading people to suspect that maybe they're going to take a First amendment defense on this regarding software as speech possibly Despite the extension that Apple was given The US Department of Justice has not waited to file its motion with the court seeking to compel Apple to comply with the judge's order They said they said since Apple has very publicly said they're not going to comply We think this is important enough to file our motion to compel right away That doesn't change anything Apple still gets until Friday, February 26th to respond Facebook released a post of support for Apple stating it would continue to fight aggressively against requirements for companies to weaken the security of their systems Twitter CEO Jack Dorsey posted We stand with Tim Cook and Apple and Mark Cuban wrote on his blog that Apple was doing quote exactly the right thing Finally libertarian presidential candidate and security software developer John McAfee has offered to crack the iPhone 5c in question within three weeks Free of charge McAfee claims he could use social engineering to work out the passcode He says he wants to do this to save Apple from having to implement a backdoor as he says Micah McAfee wrote quote I would eat my shoe on the Neil Cavuto show if we could not break the encryption on the San Bernardino phone Dare we're gonna talk We're gonna answer fanmails and then we got lots of great perspectives from CIS admins law enforcement officers, etc To talk about but specifically with with the John McAfee case without evaluating the character of John McAfee When you have the owners of the phones deceased, how do you do the social engineering? You know, I'm suspect of that the the whole social engineering to break the the phone So I'm gonna say that's most likely just Marketing speak it's rising eyebrows. It's getting him in the headlines and That's what John McAfee does and I know you're right. I just went back to the whole John McAfee thing But I just don't buy that you know, here's the thing dead men tell no tales Yeah, I mean, I guess if they had footage of you know, somehow security footage of the phone being a lot I don't know. I mean I can try to come up with zoom and enhance to get that enhance sector four So there you go. Anyway, that catches you up on the latest With that fight. There is other tech news though mobile carrier three announced It will implement ad blocking for its customers in the UK and Italy where it operates customers will be given the choice to opt in Opt in to having ads filtered and removed this according to tech crunch three says it wants to reduce the customer data charges So you don't have these data hogging ads They want to prevent tracking which a lot of ads set cookies and and some non-cookie tracking And they want to expose customers only to relevant ads, although they don't go into detail on how that would work It will use technology from a company called shine in Israel, which also provides its service to Caribbean carrier Digi cell You know see Tom you got the headline all wrong The way it starts out is mobile carrier three announced that it will it will implement the ability to opt in to a man in the Middle attack because that's exactly what this is They're altering the data in transit and of course I'm gonna tell you exactly what they mean by more relevant ads They're gonna inject their own. I mean, oh you think that's what they could do Oh, come on. This is a huge win and you know what mobile carriers are terrible about doing this when I go to Europe I hate it when T-Mobile does this where they inject Java script into your stuff and then they even like recompress JPEGs So like websites look crappier because they're like overly compressing stuff to make the 3g seem a little faster But the way that I always feel is just like don't mess with the connection your common carrier Stop it. I get that you want to have like, you know an enhanced business model and thankfully since it's an opt-in thing You know one could argue like okay Well, you don't have to do this. Yeah, yeah, and that's cool But then it brings up the whole net neutrality debate as well too with like well how much meddling are they doing with traffic? This is like when Verizon and Comcast give you an ad filled page When you type in a domain name that doesn't work instead of just giving you the standard domain name failure Yeah, I would say actually it's more akin to what Verizon and and AT&T we're doing with our super cookies Stuff to the HTTP header. I think that I think it's different than that because they at least I mean as far as we know They at least aren't adding any tracking But I guess if they did what you're talking about where they started putting in their own ads Then you'd have to inspect that and you know, I don't care if it's adding tracking or removing ads You're messing with the content and you're a content delivery system And you should be by law held to just deliver what I asked for and just deliver the option I'm with and you get that little loophole Strategy analytics released a report Thursday noting that 8.1 million smartwatches shipped in Q4 and for the first time That's more than the number of Swiss watches that shipped 7.9 million Swiss watches shipped in Q4. So You know, there you go smartwatches are more popular than 8,500 Swiss watches Yay Yeah I mean, I don't know if this is apples to apples comparison because a smartwatch can be you know It's not 50 bucks and a Breitling can be a few thousand and yet they still sell 7.9 million Swiss watches That's a lot of watches. So what it tells you is that the Swiss need to up their smartwatch game Yeah, you hear that swatch smartwatches. I don't know that smartwatches really should be compared to Swiss watches They they they should be compared to you know upper-level regular watches You know what we're gonna have to make that's calling shit. No, no, no, no, you know what? We already have the terminology. We need to start making a distinction right now There is a watch which is really just anything you put on your wrist a bracelet could be a watch right if it if it goes on your wrist and it does something and then there is a timepiece and More elegant so Apple sells watches at the sport watch level, but they said timepieces for the Love it. Yep Here's some time note. These are watches not timepieces Garmin announced new fitness bands the hundred to a hundred twenty dollar Vivo fit 3 now automatically tracks workouts and can track your intensity level as well as all the things that could do before You can choose from Garmin's style collection of bands Which have some cool colors and patterns or for $40 more You can get a series of bands designed by Jonathan Adler Including purple geometrics gray and green concentric circles in a blue Goyard like chevron pattern That one ships in Q2 There's also the $250 of Vivo active HR which ships this spring and adds optical heart rate sensors 13 hour GPS battery life and native tracking to its previous Vivo active features And it gives you native tracking for more sports You wearing a Fitbit This is this is just not a timepiece. No, it's a band. Yeah PC Mag reports that starting next year Volvo will offer an app using Bluetooth as an alternative to a physical key They won't stop providing keys if you want them, but it's it's an alternative It would allow digital key sharing for families or businesses like rental car companies A pilot program will begin this spring with Sweden's car sharing company Sunfleet at Gothenburg Airport So this is the one where everybody says. Oh, that doesn't sound secure. What do you think Darren? What I say is this is fantastic because you are giving the ability for the consumer to have two factors of authentication Something they have their phone and something they know their passcode to get into their phone to unlock their car And that's in if itself a good thing whether or not we want the key to our car to be tied to a device That has a constant internet access and has many other potential attack vectors whereas a traditional dumb key doesn't You there's there's an argument to be made for the dumb key and Bluetooth security aspect of this as well Right. Yes. Yeah, but I think that that is the more troubling part is they need to make the Bluetooth security is not always implemented properly No, I don't know what you're talking about zero zero zero zero listen Yeah, I feel like this is a step in the right direction in in like in the hearts of Volvo Yes, this is good but I would just much rather see like a not internet connected device and you know, I would say like Using Bluetooth would be better than rolling their own crypto right the rolling code stuff. There's there's weaknesses in that There's abilities to break the keys for those so You know Yeah, so so in a way being able to rescind the apps Ability to work which you could do You know could then disable the car and so there may be some advantages on that There just needs to be a you know manual backup for when your phone is dead That that's really down to but you know, I would say that it's better than them rolling their own like a going with an established standard You know you get on board with where the hearts and minds of people are like making the security better Yeah, just just implement it right Brad Heath of the USA Today points out that Judge Robert J. Bryan has ordered the FBI to disclose the source code of the tool it used to explore exploit or To the attorney of J. Michaud Michaud's defense involves showing the FBI overreached its warrant to use the network Investigative technique that they used on tour the FBI operated a tour site for 12 days in order to catch child pornography Offenders thanks to Jack RB for submitting this on the subreddit So I want the source to be released because I want the tour developers to be able to get access to this because I want them to make tour more secure and I say that and you may have an immediate reaction because you heard the reason for this request and so I Just want everybody to know that when you hear these kind of tech stories that that it's important to remove the fear element you know whether it's a Terrorists or a child predator or whatever I feel like the more secure the world is The more secure we all are and the better that we all are and that you can't fall prey to the fear Because that's a terrorist manipulation tactic and it is employed by more than just terrorists or quote-unquote bad guys So yeah, we'll get into that more, but sure Yeah, that's a definitely bears of the Apple discussion as well The thing to remember here is the court would only be allowing the source code to be showed to the lawyers Now you can make the same argument that it's being made in the Apple case that well once its source code is out It can get leaked and that's possible But it's not just to be clear what's being ordered the court isn't ordering the source code to be made available to everyone It they're saying you need to show it to the lawyers So they can have an expert under oath under NDA look at it and say it was able to do this It was not able to do that right and as I go to github.com FBI I realized that is not the Federal Bureau of Investigation probably no no there you go Hey a mobile world Congress starts this Sunday runs through Thursday, February 25th Most of the big announcements are coming Sunday including Samsung's unpacked where we'll probably get details on a new Galaxy S7 as well as maybe some VR gear VR stuff LG's G5 announces Something on Sunday our LG's G5 will be announced on Sunday Something with the stylus is coming from Huawei a phone with Dolby Atmos is expected from Lenovo and new stuff from ZTE Sony has an announcement at its booth on Monday So it might not be as big of an announcement since it's at the booth and HTC is expected to have a VR announcement Though it hasn't actually scheduled anything yet Alcatel will get the jump with an announcement on Saturday and Xiaomi is waiting until Wednesday to announce its new me 5 I'm honestly more excited about ifa in Berlin But that's only because I have pretty good confidence that Samsung's gonna announce the note 6 then Well, right because that's in September, right like right right around Labor Day So maybe maybe what I'm trying to say here is don't rush out and buy something just because you saw it At mobile world Congress because there's still ifa Berlin to happen in September before all of the 2016 flagships Makes like a true fan of the note You know Yeah, I can't I've been video-ready. We'll talk about it post-show, but man this thing is powerful. I love it Microsoft Samsung Qualcomm GE and Intel are among the companies joining the open Connectivity Foundation in order to unify the Internet of things standards if you're thinking to yourself I thought I heard of somebody who was already doing that. It's true The OCF is the successor to the open interconnect consortium which launched in 2014 But OCF includes Microsoft Electrolux and Qualcomm who were not members of the OIC But are still members of another group called the all-seen alliance which wants to use the all-join protocol and the all-seen Alliance hasn't gone away and To add a little bit of another layer of frosting to this cake Apple and Google to the biggest Internet of things Makers are not members of any of these organizations. Oh, man. The standard is dead Long live the standard. I'm excited about this I mean the OCF is a is a positive move towards the standard because you brought Microsoft Electrolux and Qualcomm in on One side and maybe all seen will merge with it. Eventually. It's not merging now though So that's that's a little hedging of the bets on Microsoft's part I suppose but bringing in Google or Apple is the only way you're really going to make this and it's interesting But if you're Google and Apple you have no incentive to join because you're already the big kid on the block And for everybody else, this is a good thing because they can share resources and hopefully put together a secure platform That everybody can build on instead of doing what we've been seeing lately, which is just a You know nation-state and hackers wet dream. Yeah, and Google Google is basically saying we have three standards. There's works with nest and we have a couple others You should just join our standard will be the standard Come join our standard and we're saying we don't care about any of you We're going to do a health kit for Apple or home kit for Apple and that's all we care about Yeah, I vaguely remember talking about Facebook in this like a few weeks ago killing their standard and giving up throwing in the towel The US Consumer Product Safety Commission has deemed Self-balancing scooters you often hear them called hoverboards unsafe after reviewing reports of 52 scooter fires Between December 1st 2015 and February 17th of this year scooter manufacturers will now be required to gain UL Certification before selling their boards in the United States. I don't believe there are any known Self-balancing scooters that have UL certification at this point. So this effectively makes all currents Hoverboards illegal in the US. I don't think there are any known self-balancing scooters at this time that hover Didn't they don't none of them actually hover they all touch the ground with wheels At some point and UL certification if you're like, what is that? It's an independent organization used to be called underwriters laboratories now It's just called UL and all they do is provides safety certification for things to say yes This will not this is not likely to catch fire. It's why you always see the little UL thing on your electric cords in the US So there you go, hopefully that means fewer fires caused by things that don't hover Submit your stories to us folks dailytechnewshow.reddit.com It helps us put the stories together every single day We love hearing from you at the very least get in there and vote on a couple of things each day dailytechnewshow.reddit.com and that is a look at the headlines So it's fan mail Friday, which means we'll start off with our pick of the day this time Yaru recommends the news 360 app available for iOS Android and Windows it customizes articles based on topics You've indicated you're interested in there's lots of apps that do this Apple news does this now But Yaro says he likes this one the best Because you can express your likes and dislikes on particular stories He likes the design of the app the ability to save articles to read later in things like pocket And he says quote what's great about the app is the execution It feels really really smart and it got really good reviews on both the Google Play Store and the iTunes Store Four to four and a half stars. So go check it out news 360.com if you're looking for a news reader Not a news reader like somebody who reads the news well Tom I don't know. I mean you could you could get a job being a news reader. Maybe I Think that job is gonna be put out of business eventually send your picks to us folks feedback at dailytechnewshow.com You can find more picks at dailytechnewshow.com slash picks alright Apple encryption we've covered it for three days in a row and I know some people probably may be a little tired of it But this is a big story and if your emails are any indication you are very much paying attention to it You have theories you have questions every single email we got From yesterday's show until now Was pretty much about this with a couple of minor exceptions involving someone wanting a new logo for the video feed Which by the way we got thanks Mustafa and thanks Sean for putting it in the feed So we're gonna run through these basically I'm gonna read a point from somebody and I've edited these down to make them Very salient to what their point of the emailer is and Darren and I are gonna kick each one around you ready to go Darren I am so ready because you're right. This is probably the biggest tech crypto important story about government control and that sense what the crypto wars of the 90s. This is Hugely important we start off with Rob from Damascus, Maryland pointing out that the iPhone 5c is owned by San Bernardino County That has been reported in many different places. He says my employer Which is a big tuck company issued me an iPhone if the FBI wanted to access it legally They could speak to my employer and with proper legal documents They'd use their MDM their mobile device management software to unlock it and provide whatever they were required to There's a very serious and he says common failing on the part of San Bernardino County to probably manage their technical assets If it were a bring-your-own-device situation that'd be different, but it's not Darren do you think it's on the county a little bit for not having properly implemented MDM? What do you mean the government messed up that almost never happens that we should pass a law That makes it illegal for the government to mess up in this Let's forget about the government side of it in this point because it's easy to take potshots at the government This is a small organization that did that bought phones for its employees, but didn't apparently provide any kind of Management of those devices and small organizations. That's not uncommon and here's the thing You're really the only thing to say in this regard and because you know hindsight is 2020, but this is just embarrassing MDM active sync those aren't very difficult technologies to implement and even if it's a bring-your-own-device Kind of situation you can still apply the same things and it's probably a good idea too Because your employees are going to be using these devices to do work related stuff and if they leave the organization You want to be able to remove you know control your assets? Yeah, so I think this speaks more to how the industry has some You know some ways to go as far as providing making it more accessible for any Organization bigger small to have access to those sorts of tools But yeah, it's definitely kind of like one of those like looking back, you know hindsight is 2020 It's like ouch had they just had MDM on there That's why I always bought my own devices when I worked for companies because I'm mine. Yeah, and you would not and I wouldn't I Wouldn't be surprised if we saw proposed legislation statewide or federal Otherwise mandating this to sort of stuff across the board because yeah, I mean there's no reason why it shouldn't be done Because it's like there Mike wrote in he's a law enforcement officer and said I may be a misunderstanding But it seems that the government is not asking Apple to break their encryption But simply asking Apple to not prevent them from breaking the encryption on one single phone It seems to me that Apple can create a custom version of iOS that only works on this one specific phone and in this one specific instance This is far from a master key And in reality has no effect on any other iPhone in the world the encryption and protection against brute force in my iPhone Is in no way affected by these actions perhaps this is a distinction without a difference But I don't believe so people who are opposing this court order are essentially saying that they no longer agree with the fourth Amendment and that you have an unbreakable right to privacy in all instances no matter what that's simply not the Case by choosing to commit crimes you are essentially gambling with your rights the more heinous the crime the more you gamble I think this is a perfectly fair position to take to say look if there's if this isn't going to affect anything But this phone this is this is court ordered. There's a clear crime in case, you know, why shouldn't Apple cooperate with this, you know and and to Mike Love love you love the Leo's but I feel like it's a little bit playing semantics here And you know don't trump the the terrorist card here the fourth amendment thing is out the window anyway because the person is dead, so that doesn't apply and You know that the FBI has a search warrant, right? So it doesn't matter if the suspect is dead or not They have the right to search this phone sir, but using this one specific and they absolutely have the They have that now they can do that now the only problem is that after 10 attempts it's going to delete itself You know here's the thing this isn't one particular instance This isn't just one phone and what we're talking about here is you know the lockout feature, right? It's a security feature just like encryption is a security feature and believe me if the FBI knew that it could just ask for The encryption key and get it it would have done that in fact It did that before back when before and previous versions of iOS it could do that so Apple cooperated with those requests in most cases Right, but what we're talking about here is we're talking about the courts forcing a software maker to disable a Security feature it doesn't matter if it's about the fact that they're only doing it for this one phone Why is that why isn't it for this one phone and and we'll get more into that yeah It's a reoccurring theme, but you know here's the whether it's encryption or whether it's a brute force lockout Feature it is a security feature and what the courts are asking is for Apple to disable a security feature Whether it's on one phone or all the phones it doesn't make any Difference because if in this case, right? What is the incentive for a US company to even make security features at that point when it all takes as a court order to say Hey on this particular instance remove that well then any particular instance it might as well be well Here's where I would entirely agree with Mike if we could be certain that it would only be used on this one phone and That the precedent is narrow enough that it says yeah You have to have a preponderance of the evidence showing that this phone was used in a crime And that is the only way that the court is going to allow a warrant We have a couple emails from people who take issue with that Allen believes that if this software is created and has gone through Developers and testers at Apple then investigators and other agents at the FBI It seems likely that the crippled version of iOS would leak out beyond its limited use intent Think of how Stuxnet which was targeted managed to surface outside of its targeted area You can't unwrite code and software like digital media. It's infinitely copyable This seems like a risk that hackers like Darren understand and are legitimately concerned about as well And then right along with that rich in Chapel Hill says if Apple were to be compelled to give into the FBI Then what will prevent any other nation-state or governmental actor from coming in and saying yeah that thing you gave the FBI Give us some of that software so we can prosecute criminals and terrorists to here's the order from our supreme leader Or I mean court if you don't follow it, there will be repercussions. Okay, so first of all it will leak there is no guarantee that it won't be shared used again and It what's what's even scarier here is that I feel like that's like asking the wrong question too because what we're talking About is setting a precedent that the government can compel a tech company to disable a security feature period whether that's encryption or a brute-force lockout or whatever have you and and just use in the name of freedom or whatever have you against that And there is nothing stopping another nation from copying the same thing We know that China looks to us a lot about the way that we deal with Encryption and even a New York Times article recently brought up that very subject and pointing out how China would love to Follow in our footsteps and do the same thing Interestingly the entire section from that about the China was removed from that New York Times article without comment. So Yeah, everybody knows that that's going to happen. I Think you can still make a legal argument that says look you have to sign the image file for that phone even if even if the the software got out you could make it so it really wouldn't be used on that phone and Therefore this is this is a narrow case I think that's a legitimate point of view it then becomes more of a policy question of yeah But should you do this because other nations will then say hey, you were able to do it Well, if you want to legally continue to operate in my country, you're gonna do it again for this phone that I want Under my court order because we have a human rights Violator or you know a human rights activist that we believe is a spy what whatever it is So there you have to consider that precedent there Well, I feel like the whole the whole discussion about oh just this one phone is like saying like hey I understand that it is an overreach of the law to ask you to write a version of your software that disables a Security feature, but we're only gonna break the law this one time. I think it isn't I think I don't think it is an overreach because Apple has cooperated on these in the past. It's the fact that they have to create new something new I think that's that's the sticking point for Apple is there like they're not they're not being asked to provide a key They're not being asked to provide something. They have they're asked to be created something new Right and and that's for a reason that we'll get to here in a minute Yeah, Mink wrote in and has an interesting question that he heard about the iPhone decryption issue He's like what does the FBI expect to find on the phone any communication by definition? Wouldn't it also be somewhere else beside the phone if it was a text message wouldn't a carrier have the metadata Wouldn't they have the the data of the text message? What do you need to unlock the phone for what could be on that phone? That couldn't be found elsewhere. Do you have any guesses on that? I'm going to say that the FBI if they could get this information otherwise would have yeah So there must be something they think is on that phone. That's only on that phone I feel like the phone is a red herring any of the communications that Somebody would want to get have already passed through numerous servers that could have been monitored I think what's happening here is that the FBI realizes that it doesn't have Exactly what it wants and it can use this as a means to set a precedent that it can get this And it has done so in the past before but Apple has responded companies are responded making more secure systems And so the FBI is like hey This is a case where we've got the you know the t-word behind it that we can you know use to set a precedent that I Don't think they're gonna find anything significant But I don't think we can undo the damage that this case this precedent would set if Apple does comply Yeah, and that may be true I could I could think of great examples though and some people are saying in the chat room right now There could be photos that are locally stored that could reveal other evidence. There could be Encrypted apps that Encrypted the communication so the provider of the data couldn't see the communication But as soon as I legitimately unlock the phone I'm granted access because you can with an encrypted app you can say yeah But don't make me put in the password again if I've unlocked the phone in which case they could see the message Messages there in that app once they Legitimately tricked the phone into thinking they've unlocked it So there are all kinds of things that they could be able to find on there Sure Vince co-executive producer on the show says I don't think the analogy the locksmith Refusing the job is the right. It's the government trying to make the manufacturer of the safe Give them a way to bypass the whole point of the safe plus Apple should be able to prove It's a burden since they sell security as part of their package Which could damage their position in the marketplace and they would need to divert key resources away from their job for an indefinite period of time to make this work for one specific phone and for every case involving an iPhone in the future Yeah, well, okay, so here's the thing the FBI realizes it is absolutely ill-equipped to deal with this new era of security And they have to resort to forcing Apple or any company in this case to do the dirty work for them Because they don't have that technical expertise. So, you know, they're playing the terrorism card here because Because they know that it'll aid them in setting a precedent and pushing the law to go ahead and force tech companies to do Whatever they want whenever they need them to do it the all-rits act being invoked is because Apple doesn't hold the information a search warrant says I I need you to give me this I need to look in your thing Apple doesn't have the phone Apple doesn't own the phone And and there's an interesting part in there about terms of service that I think could be explored at some point where Apple sort of claims ownership Over parts of your phone in the terms of service that I wonder could come back to bite them But that said the FBI isn't going down that road what the FBI is saying is we need to compel your assistance In getting into this piece of data Into this locked box if you will and that's why they're using the all-rits act So that's why you heard the ACLU lawyers say you can't compel a locksmith to go help the FBI Break a lock if the locksmith doesn't want to take the job He has the right as a free person who's not otherwise in any other way involved in the case to say no I won't help you do that. So that's gonna be part that could be part of Apple's defense is to say I am I I didn't I didn't lock the phone. I didn't work with these people. I sold them the phone It's theirs. I'm not involved anymore and no I don't want the job of breaking this go talk to John McAfee He apparently does and the FBI is trying to use the all-rits act to force them So again, it's not just that they have a search warrant because they can search what they're saying is to execute our search warrant We need your assistance and we believe the all-rits act gives us the authority to compel your assistance in this case And so to give this some sort of context here The reason that they have to use the all-rits act to compel them to help them in any way including writing software I guess in this case is because Previously they could just go to Apple and say hey, we want the key and they'd be like here you go Yeah, because that was something Apple had like you have the key We have a search warrant give us the key and Apple had to give them the key Why do you think Apple has in has gone to great lengths to implement a system so secure that they do not have the key I'll give you the answer to that it's so that when the government comes knocking and says hey We want this guy's key and that guy's key and that guy's key that they don't have to a waste resources doing that and be that They can create a secure system for users. What if Apple said great. Well, we'll hand over We'll hand over the signed part of a signed file Well, we'll give you the ability to to write you guys write your own software, right? Oh, yes Image file a big hacker. We'll sign it for you. Here's a certificate. You write the exploit We'll we'll sign it for you with that component that would comply with Apple say here's the thing we have great take it Yeah, right. Yes. I f they go for it where they need to write the software And that becomes a good defense for Apple to say like look you're compelling us to do a thing just because we're good at it And that's not the way the law is supposed to work. Well, that that gets into our last comment and Not not this next one, but the very last one. So let's see. Yeah, let's get to James Because James is expressing something I've heard a lot of people say he James says to me this screams of Apple through Tim Cook being Opportunistic marketing is all this is Apple is using this case to market Cook's letter to Apple users and it's appealing the order accomplishes two things one We can't open this device if we wanted to and two we shouldn't be made to help in any way to open a device One this is why you buy our stuff because we were Secure so don't worry and two this is why you should buy our stuff because we'll defend you if this is not the case Why did Apple fight behind closed doors with the Department of Justice for months? He's like why did Apple want the case to be sealed? Yeah, well, okay, so here's the thing I Agree with you in this in the sense that yes one aspect of this may in fact be marketing and I don't feel like that's inherently a Bad thing you see whether Apple wants to stand up for your rights because it's good for its marketing and will sell more phones or Because it's the right thing to do doesn't change the fact that it's the right thing to do And if this situation were played out in a slightly different manner in which the phone in question weren't an Apple phone running iOS But say it was a phone running a free and open source operating system with the same level of security Then there would be no monetary incentive here for the developers of that open source operating system to comply or Or to I'm sorry or to do anything different than Tim Cook is doing in this instance So yes, I absolutely buy that sure This is making Apple come out looking like they're fighting for the user and that's good Because that shouldn't be seen as a bad thing fighting for the user is always the right thing to do Well, maybe it should be seen as a bad thing. Maybe you're like now This is this is marketing BS, and I don't have to listen to it. That's fine. I think it is part of it I think the reason Apple wrote an open letter and published it before they have finished conducting their court defense is Because of marketing absolutely and you can decide for yourself whether you think that's good or bad But I don't think it's the only reason I don't think that Apple is only doing this fight because of a marketing reason I think it certainly would have been easier for them if they had kept it sealed And and I think that's a compelling point for James and now that it's in the public They kind of have to fight back But I also think Apple does believe that they should not comply with this order I think I think it's both. I think you can you can have two Concurrent motivations Propelling this and you could decide if that if that negates one if one of those motivations negates the other for yourself Yeah, and you know what I want to chime in with Shane and beatmaster's comments here because they say Shane says that he thinks that this is a rare case where marketing and the privacy rights are actually working side-by-side Yeah master time clock is right twice a day You're marketing and your civil rights can can be pulling in the same direction Yeah, and then the master says hey, it's capitalism working for once, you know, I like Michael for once Anyway Michael a San Diego software developer thinks if Apple wins this If Apple wins this case that the FBI will come after them for their signed certificates and code base So this plays into what we were talking about earlier about hey We'll give you the sign file you write it yourself and then the FBI saying great give us the source code He points to a similar situation where the government asked Lava bit to do the same thing leading Lava bit to shut down their service Keep in mind that the FBI he says doesn't want to have to do this kind of work themselves But if push came to shove they will go after the code base and certifications need to accomplish this and who's to say that? Stuff doesn't end up making its way to the NSA or other agencies Apple's in a catch 22 Because it doesn't want to do it but by fighting against breaking the encryption They will eventually have to give up their code base and certifications because it's something they physically have Now I I wrote back to Michael. We had a nice conversation about this. I disagree I think if FBI wanted the code base that that's what they would be going for It's easier for them to get the court to order Apple to come to come to to work with them And if the court rules against the FBI it would then be much harder for them to say well, then we need the code base And so they Usually in the legal situations you go for the bigger win first And then if you don't get that one then you can try to scale back FBI went narrow at the beginning implying that they wouldn't go after the code base And the other thing is the Lava bit situation was about surveillance not about assistance So I think there's a difference there But Michael has a perfectly reasonable opinion to say like well But maybe the FBI will expend the resources to fight to get the source code if they don't get the assistance from Apple that they Seek well in the Lava bit case though the what they wanted was Encrypted and Lava bit did not have it wasn't just like a hey Give us that thing you have and it had to be and it would I don't believe it If the all-ritz act was used in this case But it was a help us get that thing that I was a FISA court case So it was it was under an entirely different system of disclosures, you know And here's and actually that's a very good point because how many of these exact battles This is a huge thing right now in the mainstream media and this is something that we should all be very passionate and I don't care if you feel if you agree with me or not But you should be very passionate about this if you care about privacy But how many times do you think this exact thing has gone down in in secret courts? You know and the fact that we're not hearing anything from Google I know I've kind of gone off the rails as far as the question here But we haven't heard anything from Google in this regard well We have Sundar Pichai did five tweets saying that he supports Apple I have tweets five tweets Okay, well in that case so you're saying we haven't heard a very strong support from Google no and So this this comes back to what we're talking about like oh well, you know if We just had to give you what we have then here's the certificate. Here's the thing if the FBI Wanted it knew that they could just say give us the encryption key and get the encryption key They do that then they're like well We can't do that But we can ask for them to limit the brute force protection so that we can do the thing that we know how to do which Is to brute force stuff because by the way Android phones don't have this protection you can try a bajillion times It won't erase itself which is kind of effed up but regardless the the The if they can't get that then they will ask for the source code and they will ask for the signing keys and and the thing is The this is Apple needs to realize that they are under attack from the government it's it's like any other threat and they need to protect themselves and they need to protect their Intellectual property and one way to go about that would be to encrypting to be encrypting their asset in this case the Signing key and the code base with and distributing parts of that key to various Jurisdictions around the world to prevent this sort of thing from being able to happen What about what about just putting in user confirmation of any firmware update and Saying you've got to put in you've got to put in your passcode to accept any firmware update anything You're right That's actually a good protection and it should be done regardless so that when the government tries to push a firmware update to Your phone unbeknownst to you because they might do that through your SIM card and various other nefarious means That you would have to be involved in that system However, if that were the case then again that is that would be what would we call that a security feature? And what is the the court's asking Apple to do remove a security feature? So I don't know Apple couldn't Apple say we can't help you with this because you need to know the passcode in Order to get around the security feature Yeah, I wish that were the case and they should absolutely implement as many of those systems and layer them on top of each other That they possibly can to protect the phone to pick to protect the device But they should also and and this isn't just Apple This is any developer that is creating secure systems to keep this in mind that there is a attack vector That is the US government and if you are creating secure systems in this country You need to look at how you're protecting yourself with your signing keys with your intellectual property in a manner That is best benefiting the user and that may be distributing encryption keys for your own signing keys around the world So the FBI has to go to an entity in Switzerland and an entity in Germany. Sure. Well, no and that makes it extra secure I'm just wondering if if that's even necessary if you require if you've if if the key is the password by the person in This case, you're right. It would change it. What you're saying is what if you could be compelled to give the passcode? Well, the reason that the system works this way The reason that the secure enclave was so much attention put into building a system in this regard is For this exact reason so that they couldn't be compelled to give that key away Otherwise why even bother doing this right? Why even bother creating a security? I'm just saying if if they if you were required to enter your passcode to update the firmware Then they wouldn't be able to assist the FBI in this case by giving them a signed image file because the FBI would need the Passcode in order to push You're saying sign the firmware with both Apple's key and your own passcode Yeah, it's a great idea and they should do that and the reason that they should is so that they can't be compelled Yeah, and then there would be there be nothing Apple wouldn't have to take a principled stand in that case Now when you say that government is an attack vector you're referring to surveillance methods Which is different than what's going on in this case. I want to make that clear You're talking about the precedence of of metadata surveillance and things from the NSA what the FBI is doing here isn't surveillance This is very clearly, and I think this gets muddled a lot and I think it's important to separate This is very clearly a criminal case. This is the FBI saying we've got a criminal Who conducted a crime and we have a warrant in public with a court order? This is not the same as what the NSA has been doing. This is not a secret court. This is not a phishing expedition This is we know we have reasonable suspicion There is something helpful in this case on this phone and we want to get at it So it is a different situation Than what we might face in surveillance and what Apple is saying is not that they can't technically do it It's it and not that they think it's illegal what they're saying is we think it sets a bad precedent We don't think that we should be in the business of helping law enforcement circumvent encryption even if we can And and whatever you think about this and you may think that Apple is on the wrong side of this issue That is the thing to understand is even if you think Apple's on the wrong side of this issue And you think they should cooperate should they be compelled to cooperate? I think that is the nut of the issue that is the key here That is the number one thing that I have issue with and why I think the arguments about oh that just this one time is Irrelevant and And don't get me wrong. I I sympathize with the leo's I have friends at the FBI and I understand the difficulty of their job but I just feel like if a Perfect security system could be implemented. There's no reason why it shouldn't and and compelling a company to then Reduce its security just because it's going to help this one time. I'm not buying that Well, you folks have been awesome in sending us your opinions on this and your insights into this We really appreciate not only the people we read today, but everybody who's communicated with us in all the different various forms Big thank you Darren kitchen for sharing your insights on this and your expertise as well HAK 5.org hack 5.org what else you got that's not apple related. Oh Well, it is apple related in that the word apple is in the name Which once got a suit by apple, but the Wi-Fi pine apple is is now at there's a if you're looking to do some Some wireless penetration testing and security auditing up your own We most I don't know if you know this but hack 5 also manufacturers really cool security here to do fun things on you know wired networks and wireless Networks and hid stuff. So check it out. It's government approved gear You know, it's certified by our boys and they love them and I love them So if if any of you if any of you guys are about to email in like Darren's anti-government actually no We have a we have a very good working relationship But yeah, so I think it runs anti-overreach where he sees the overreach and that's fair I want to look at any sort of system with laws and rules the same way whether it's secure Privacy enabling software or the laws set forth by our founding fathers Len Peralta has been busily trying to come up with the right art to illustrate this situation. What do you got Len? Well, you know, I haven't been on the show for a couple weeks But I wanted to do something that was really you know that talked about this issue and obviously there's lots more to talk about it But I wanted to do something sort of simple and poignant And and this this is what I came up with it's a It's the quote or partial quote from Tim Cook about the moment calls for public discussion We want our customers and people around the country to understand what's at stake And it's an image of the Apple with a mouth talking and there's a there's an iPhone Which has been put in as evidence the very simple image very elegant Yeah, I love the the fact that you you've taken the bite from the Apple logo and turned it into the speaking voice of Tim Cook That's really cool. Yeah, it was uh, I you know, I hope people dig it So so go by all means people are all sides of the issue can could admire this Yeah, I think we're all to store.com. Yeah Well, you know what one last final thought on this Tom I just realized is you know, I also want people to kind of abstract this out and realize that this Wouldn't be a different discussion if we were talking about a Windows phone or an Android phone And if we were talking about somebody that was jaywalking or somebody that was speeding or texting while driving Yeah, there there are elements to it that that enhance the interest and passions of it. That's for sure Thank you to our patrons that make the show possible and the people who send us emails that support the show if you get value out Of these kinds of discussions and we hope you do We just ask you give a little of that value back daily tech news show com slash support Before we go I want you to know that I'm a huge fan of Nate Langston's text message show in the UK And as we ramp up to our own Australian based day six version of Daily Tech News show Nate and I are trying to figure out how to cooperate to help you fill in another corner of the world for you on text message in the UK So what we're gonna do is I'm gonna give him a little bit about what's coming up on DTNs And he's gonna tell you guys what's coming up on text message every week So here's a little bit of that from Nate. Thanks Tom. This Sunday We've got my hands-on look at Samsung's new products from Mobile World Congress And have you ever wondered what happens after somebody hacks your Uber account takes a $230 ride through Detroit? Well, I found out and I've also found out that being able to cancel a thief's journey while he's still in the car And the other side of the Atlantic is a very modern way to stop a robbery in real time I'll fill you in on what happened next this Sunday on text message You can subscribe in your favorite pod catcher now at text message dot code at UK back to you Tom Thank you, Nate. Don't forget. I can't wait to hear the rest of that story don't forget the second of February's two day six episodes with Peter Wells is coming on February 28th our email address is feedback at daily tech news show Dot-com you can call us 51259 daily catch the show live Monday through Friday 4 30 p.m. Eastern at alpha geek radio Dot-com and diamond club TV and visit our website daily tech news show dot-com back on Monday with Veronica Belmont talk to you then This show is part of the frog pants network get more at frog pants dot-com Diamond club hopes you have enjoyed this bro Boom Good show so much fun. That was great. Oh, so that that last comment there Just made me room reminded me of this which was from yesterday. I don't know that's gonna focus. There you go Yeah, by the way, that was on accident. I Didn't realize that when it's surcharge pricing that it applies to all different vehicles So if it says surcharge for black car, and then you choose uber X that it's still surcharge for uber X Oops That's why I was rushing back from the South Bay two days ago to be on the show Man, oh, I'm sorry about that. Oh, no. No, it's not you. I'm just like oh, no, but I'm still sorry about that That's all yeah, I should I wish that they were more upfront about their pricing It's confusing Well, is this uber that was uber that was uber. There's an app called uber meter. Oh Which tells you I have it on my phone. Let me make sure that's the right app, but it tells you like Lift and who is Currently in surge pricing. Oh nice Yeah, uber meter. Thank you Well, you know what Jenny we need to have we need to the show needs to go both ways because I need some normie help I don't even know Thank you, you might normie So warm right now. It's awesome Would you like some titles? I love Apple refuses to make killer app. Yeah, I Don't know if it's the right headline for the show to be honest But it's only the only reason it might not be is because actual people died in San Bernardino What's nagging at my yeah, that's that's the it Jenny has the mind of a PR agent and That one that one gets at me a little bit It's not knowing so not letting it get to me. Yeah, but yeah, it's encryption depiction. Yeah, I Like encryption depiction. Yeah Let's see. I'm not feeling any of the McAfee ones. No me either Swiss watches past their tires The Internet of acronyms not not capitalism worked for once come on be master works for me every day We really need man in the middle attack blockers, am I right a little log But I just enjoy the sentiment of it. Well, I may have a product for you, but later later Hover and catch fire. Oh What if I what if I modify want to beat masters he has government says hoverboards won't fly How about what the government says won't fly? Don't get it I Get it. I don't get it answer is hoverboards. Oh But also your your refusal to comply with our request They can't not comply It's the government told them to do something and when your mother tells you to do something you go to your room And you think about what you did well when the court tells you you actually have to exactly when that's the more interesting thing here Is like, you know, I am a if not me particular, but I am a user of Apple I am a citizen of the Apple Empire I happen to have more been born in the United States, you know, you can choose your you can choose your OS Manufacturer you can't choose your citizenship. All right. I need the title. What are we going with? I Don't know I I'm kind of at a loss on that one too because they really depiction it is. Yep. There it is Because it applies doesn't say Apple and it's short. I Can pull a trigger Like a fashion makeover show Jenny. Yo It it needs to be a fashion makeover show the normie like. Oh, yeah, and I hacker you That's right. Uh, what could we call it? chopped hacked Hack your normie norm I for the hacker guy Or my for the hack guy. Oh or hack I for the norm I Yeah, the way you could you could depends on which way the episode is going Yeah, you can use it either way. It's a two-part. You know It's like one of those books that you would read and then when you're done you flip it over and read it backwards Yeah, it's another whole another comic book It's like irredeemable and incorruptible the two parallel series of comics. Hmm. Oh, I thought we were talking about Again, sorry Does make me smart, please Look smart or make me sound smart works both ways. Yeah, I Would love to just do a play on Colleen's trademark, which is make it do the thing Yeah, I have a button Just makes make it do the thing All right, I got a motor guys. All right, man No, I don't know what it's gonna be possibly a fish Friday night, but who knows great job spaghetti Len. Thank you so much spaghetti Jen All of these things are true I want fish now. Yeah, so I mean I want a fish fry I gotta see see what ruins it is the kids cuz they're all like I love them man. They're great All right, man Goodbye fish fry. They're on my plate. They don't walk. Oh, could it be something like instead of like house flippers Like normie flipping No, no, you see I just have the name, but it's just not appropriate for the podcast, but it will make a u-turn Fair enough. I don't know if you guys use that one. It pimp my normie. No, oh Oh, I like that hang on Norma thigh brought to you by norms Every show needs to begin with hi, I'm norm I'm just a girl to try to use rubio rails. I just don't know how I Was just a normal guy until I discovered the dark isn't that the presidential candidates train rubio rails No, I thought they got on replace Bennigan down in Orlando. Yeah And then what they do they get on the back of a caboose and then they go from town to town and do the Then they chop down a tree and stand on the stump. Yeah. Yeah, the traditional method Yeah, maybe mixing up in the Johnny with the apple seeds is he's there to actually chop them down No, I'm mixing this up actually with George Washington. He he shows up chops down the tree you get off the caboose Give your speech and then Paul Boney. Yeah, I was All but in in the ox. They're there just to kind of like they're doing crowd control. They're big guys They're making sure you're not getting too close And that's how the American political system works everybody else They won't believe uh They're like yep, sounds screwed up enough and then we vote for our favorite fictional character and then fictional characters actually vote for the president. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah The political system has my vote in 2016 Because he's gonna vote for my guy because at this point. I swear to God. I really might vote for Luke Skywalker. I Don't know if you vote for my camel or Luke Skywalker. Well, actually I'd vote for Princess Leia Organa solo Yeah, I was about to say I don't know if I want sorry Luke. Yeah looks kind of a moody brat even now It's I mean, you know what if anything Kylo, you know what we don't even have to say spoilers It's been months. It's more is more young Skywalker than anything. He's got the emo thing going I love to call him emo Vader and The cast is emo Vader rolly droid Over the others These are oh for real you actually call him rolly droid. I call him rolly droid. Yeah Concurrent eval convergent evolution. Yeah. Oh, man. I could what did I call Kylo though? It wasn't it wasn't emo Vader though. That's really good. Thank you. Another normie tip while you're thinking of it Darren have you seen emo Kylo Ren versus? What are the fake Vader? I called him fake Vader. Okay. I've seen emo Kylo Ren the Twitter Yeah Fights with like emo Luke I think I think Luke actually Invented ugly face when he found out about her spoiler alert. Is this father? Yeah And you know what I'm actually really depressed that we didn't get the opportunity to see the face of Vader You know because the helmet was on when we got the epic No Just a good old boy Yeah, I am I think it's time to talk about Star Wars again, Sam Hmm It's too late Hey, you knew did you hear that chance serve gave voice dishwood? What I know give voice to anybody these days, right? Chance of I thought we had a thing going you and I man What's going on with SoundCloud why are you not processing dear sound though? They finally went broke never mind kidding Tom what you using for your RSS? Feetburner. Oh, okay. I was about to ask is I tried to log into feedburner the other day And it looks like they've deleted their style sheets or something or maybe they're just trying to go for that crags Maybe they're going for the crags list look. It probably just didn't load. Okay. Oh Man, I'm surprised that thing is kicking. I logged in and it looked like Geo cities and I was like, oh, yeah No, it's the style sheets loaded for me this time They haven't redesigned in a while, but they actually added a feature what in January So there is there's like a maintainer. Yeah, they're doing like status updates Wow There's someone paying attention to it That's all I'm considering. It's like, you know, I'm vital piece of infrastructure of the internet Yeah, I kind of feel like and and I recommend people like if you're starting from scratch Maybe don't use Feetburner, but if you're already using it like I am I forgot you would using it I forgot you would convert the ace detect feed to DTNS, right? What You you would have this RSS going on for some time, right and YouTube. No. Oh What not RSS YouTube Darren's talking about RSS. Yeah, I figured I figured you picked up the sub brilliant feed to No, no, it's brilliant feed still has its own feed. I've got like 15 different feed burner feeds. Oh man I had I created a brand master father feed for a Daily Tech news show, which you could say is hubris But my thinking is if they didn't let Google Reader Like go without, you know Without at least handing over some pieces of it and seeing that there was somebody else out there They are not going to undermine Podcasting in this day and age why just shutting Feetburner down. Yeah, the consumers we can screw those over But the content creators we need them to be on our side and and advertisers That would be Rocked by this. So I think I think what's happening is probably a crisis in Google where they're like, huh? We thought podcasting was dead, but it seems not to be dead What should we do and I and that's why Feetburner is just kind of floating along with someone actually paying attention to it for the first time in years How long until YouTube is like, oh good We'll come up with a feature where we can ingest RSS feeds and then you can watch them on YouTube red. Yeah Yeah, yeah, we'd not be shocked. Guess what? Mmm. I was just made an honorary millennial What congratulations Start slacking off now. No, I didn't Well, yeah, I just Generations Booked a podcast all through snapchat nice Me and rich strife Alina I'm doing the novelization realization podcast coming up and I've been Like kind of a dick about replying back to emails because things are kind of up in the air with travel and everything And so he snapchatted me a funny little picture of like which date On a post-it and then we went back and forth on snapchat. I was like, oh, this is so much more fun than writing emails Official I'm an honorary almost 40 year old millennial. That's amazing I'm that's a new Sony Pictures movie coming the 40 oldest millennial The 40 year old snap chatter would you be my bae I Would you be my bae Would you be my bae Your cane is on fleek. Yeah Well on that note folks, I'm out of the post. Thanks everyone for watching. Hope you enjoyed the week. We'll see you next time