 Use design to be provocative in your organizations to what extent is that the goal you know and obviously for you there's there's an end because you have a new product but in terms of how your your organizations work it is is design your your describing design as being solution-based as opposed to being provocative I'm just curious if there's a not those are usually exclusive well that's what I'm curious about how that how that feels for you guys in this year there's been inside Google it was kind of saying technology sucks computer sucks and that's provocative coming from company that's lives in technology lives in computers and and and the provocation is that how do we get it out of the way so we just all benefit without it being there and that's that's what I would say it was provocative but that the end result hopefully should be something seamless effortless you don't even see it notice it in the product side in the communication side probably and more provocative because you know everyone's a totally ignoring every message on the planet so you have to find some little bit of magic or something that you know jolts them out of you know the day-to-day habits and go oh wow that's kind of cool because for us it is a little bit different I mean I think if we just looked at it from an effective activity perspective it would it allow you to have stuff that it doesn't get noticed at times you know and that's that's a part of design but in the communication business you have to force people to take notice you have to you know invoke an immediate response so provide provocation is a just a core part I mean I think there can be provocation in the product side too that's really important it's just a question of I mean to me provocation is just distance from incrementality like are you trying to make something slightly better every day like Amazon web services or something or are you doing major leap frog innovation where you're putting something out there that the risk is higher because the potential reward is higher changing a behavior like the way touch just happened and all of a sudden everyone's doing you know interacting haptically and whatnot I think that those kinds of risks are in the sort of fitness landscape to use your evolutionary example bigger risks with potentially bigger outcomes more disruptive I totally agree but the reason why those touchdowns wins it wasn't a destructive technology no no no no it's better would find a natural to use it so that's all I'm saying it's not provocative provocative to get to the natural human state and you have to do big leaps to get there but at the end it's like the proof is like what 18 months you know kids my nephew literally like knows how to yeah it's like so we got it all out of the way I agree you know Bob what I'm just thinking about is it's funny how simplicity can be provocative in a complex organization so in a way disruption provocation doesn't necessarily come in these big forms sometimes like touch it comes in the really simple things do you guys like being provocative do you within your own organizations are you like yeah I'm the one who's gonna push people along poke yeah right that's yeah that's that's what you want what's the downside of being that of the provocateur what's the downside I mean you have to deliver on it right I mean you say something pretty provocative you've got to have something to back it up or you're just the person that's saying wild things in the corner right so you know I mean that's what I'm talking about the speed versus quality I mean it's kind of easier to go with speed because if you aspire to a higher level of quality you actually have to deliver and you have to ask yourself really tough questions so I don't think it's necessarily easy to do it because I want to deliver on it not just poke I think you can provoke with a question though I mean just and you know an alternative approach to the problem a reframing can be provocative right it's not necessarily arrogance saying you know I have you know I'm the smartest or most creative person in the room that I don't think flies it's and you know in terms of outcomes I think products that engage people because they have some of that quality they they're not different in a meaningless way they're they're different because I didn't really think of that possibility that's provocative I think what when I showed the whole team I took them to room and I showed them the first design that was just a sketch so they came on the boat and started telling me the plastic guy the metal guy the engineer one by one why none of this can be done so it was very frustrating so what I had to do is take the last product they did put it on the table and said okay this is really not a great product so you smash you with a hammer I told him tell me one good thing about and then we started to go through the process and I showed them that everything is bad the way you carbonate the sound the looks the materials everything so one step by step and in the end of the meeting two people left the room one of them actually left the company it was quite a good meeting but it was a must meeting for everything that happened afterwards you know people understood that what we had before it's not the way to go so whether they find the way right now to do it or not they need to find a way so I think sometimes it's just a must I think you can be provocative and you can actually be a disruptor I don't like labels on anyone but you also what you're talking about is you had the leadership capabilities and you own the project and when you are being provocative and you force people to see it your way or see it a different way or get out of the way they've been doing things they see the leadership in you and the responsibility that you're taking on for that project and they'll they'll come to light with it and that's what you were just talking about do you think about I actually think to be a leader you have to be provocative and I think the most provocative people within Google are not the designers I don't think it's like Larry and Sergey they'll start I'm sure to say you know there's a lot at the top so I I don't I think anyone who's leading things from one place to another place has to paint a clear provocative picture as a clear provocative question I believe that CEOs are designers they just don't know that you know they're they're dealing with you know with chaotic difficult problems that don't really have answers that they have to juggle they're getting lots of input and they're constantly shifting you know it's ironic that they don't see themselves and they don't always appreciate what design is doing because that's really what they're you know what they're it goes right back to like what how do you define it if it's to do if designing look it up it's like to do anything with intent as you were saying to shape how we experience the world that's like who isn't a designer you know well that is a good question I mean what does define a designer total insecurity MBAs are trained for a world that follows a certain kind of order designers are trained for a world that anything can happen I think what our user experience and our user designers have done is said this needs to apply they want the broadest set of problems to solve you'll be able to do this and this and this and this and that's the thing that seems to spark