 Did your boss have any well wishes for you or any advice? He said that he was surprised and he expected me to sit at my desk for the next two weeks and so I Said I said I said to him well I don't have any more work to do right and he said you'll figure something out And I still remember that to this day. I remember his face when he said it I remember him saying you'll figure something out and I just went back to my desk and I'm like, okay If I walk out now I'm for sure never coming back to the music industry and I did anyway because I said to myself I can make no baked work for the life of me I will do whatever it takes to make this successful and I will not come back to this industry I walked out. I left my ID badge my parking pass on the desk. I didn't say bye to anyone I went downstairs got in my car and then I googled. How do you ship a refrigerated product? This is start of the storefront the podcast where we inspire entrepreneurship through truth Today's guests are Megan and Jimmy Fieman the married duo behind no baked cookie dough Most of us can probably relate to sitting at work wishing you could just walk out the door and chase your dreams Megan actually did it She may have thought the music industry would be a good fit for her when she started her career But once she felt the calling to branch out on her own She was gone and no one was going to tell her otherwise It's that kind of entrepreneurial fire that has driven Megan and Jimmy to lead an ever-expanding business One that has led them from scoop shops to pop-ups to e-commerce and everything in between So listen in so we cover everything from why being able to eliminate fear is an important part of entrepreneurship Why a hit on your credit score shouldn't deter you from making business decisions and why you should let procrastination be your guide Now back to the episode Welcome to the podcast on today's show. We're talking to Megan and Jimmy from no baked cookie dough. Thanks for joining Yeah, for For people who don't know what is your company do so we make safe to eat and a bakeable cookie dough Okay, and what made you want to go down this delicious journey? What was the moment where you're like? This is it? It was early 2017 Jimmy and I were about a year and a half out of college Okay, both working, you know a nine-to-five office job not in food. Not in not food I Had gone to school for music business. Okay, which is pretty common in Nashville. I wanted to work in the country music industry I Was one of the lucky people who actually got a job in the music industry, which I felt very excited about coming out of college but then I was about a year and a half into Going into an office every day sitting in a cubicle staring at a computer putting data and basically doing a job that I felt like a robot should be doing and I Was just miserable. I felt like I had no control over My future over my success How far I could advance what I was spending my time doing and it's like when you're working a nine-to-five job Most of your life is spent at work You know like the things you're doing outside of work or not how you're spending most of your time So I was so miserable doing that that it was just bleeding into the rest of my life And I was questioning everything at that point. Why did I go to college? And spend you know over a hundred grand on a degree to work in this industry to sit in the cubicle and why did I? intern full-time during college to get this experience and That was kind of the point where I was like, I just can't do this anymore. You know, I'm wasting my life away and I Had only ever created one thing that was original to me and that was a cookie dough recipe. I Love cookie dough. I always have it might sound weird, but it's like that was my dessert of choice You know, some people have like a candy stash in their cabinet some people have Pints have been in jerry's in their freezer, you know when they want that late-night snack or whenever the case may be but I Had flour sugar and butter Always because I would make you know some kind of confection that resembled cookie dough that I felt like I could eat because I Was leaving eggs out of it. And so I had created this chocolate chip recipe that was safe to eat. I Thought it tasted delicious and I was like I can't possibly be the only person in the world who likes to eat cookie dough as a snack food I it just can't be possible. So I Took that I took that recipe. I took the idea of starting what is now no baked and I Just said to myself. I can't do this job anymore I should try to do my own thing and just see what happens and did you quit right away? Or was there a time where you're like you did you want cold turkey? So kind of basically I spent all of my lunch breaks at this job that I was working creating like a Squarespace website and an Instagram page and I Delivered samples of the cookie dough to local Nashville influencers just in the area and I told them like I'm launching on this day If you could just post about it, that would be awesome. You know, we're local up-and-coming business I really had no plan I had no idea what I was gonna do But I at least like sold this small vision to them Yeah, and Nashville is the kind of place that really supports local and it's very collaborative. Yeah Yeah, a great community for businesses So I did that just kind of hoping they would post and I would at least get some kind of traction And so it was March 30th of 2017 and I launched The website where people could order online and I just said, you know, we'll deliver it to you or ship it to you I really didn't have a plan again. I was just kind of winging it Still had my job It was a Sunday and I think I maybe got ten orders. Okay, but just huge. I mean that's at that moment in time I was like, oh my gosh, like the first order came through and I was like, wow someone actually bought this I can't even believe it wasn't your cousin or your mom. No And I was like, okay, and I Went in to work the next day still had my job and I think I spent the first two hours Staring at my computer going to like the phone room calling Jimmy calling my mom being like I want to quit Like I think I should quit. I think I should quit right now. Oh, wow And it was just this internal argument where with myself where I was like, okay I have this job at this huge company in the music industry. I spent the past four years of my life Going to school in turn and getting the experience that I needed to get this job, right? If I walk away from this today, I'm never like I can't come back. It's a kiss of death Yeah, you can't come back from that You know, you're walking away from a very notable place that people will listen to what they say. Yeah and I just said to myself, okay, like I either make no baked work or I Don't know what I'll do on that phone call Did your mom or Jimmy give you good advice because I think most parents given in in how they grew up, right? We're chasing security. They wanted to support you But most of them is saying no like stay in this job. You're very lucky. Yeah, they'll try to convince you to stay Yeah, and we definitely in the beginning. I think both Jimmy and I got that from some of our family. I Am super lucky because my parents are entrepreneurs. So nice. They never had that like You have to go to college. You have to get a job out of school. You have to save money and buy a house They never had that mindset, right? So fortunately when you know, I was on the phone with my mom It was like a yeah, you should you should go for it and with Jimmy. Obviously, he was like you should definitely go for Yeah, we can do it. Yeah Later not fire I did I walked into my boss's office and I said, you know, I started this business I really want to put everything I have into it and you Haven't given me any work to do like I was at the point where They would give me things to work on I would finish and then I'd tell them I was finished and they'd say, okay Hang tight, right and I'd sit at my desk and think why are they even paying me to sit here, right? It could be freelance or it could be per hour. Yeah, we can do the best I mean they could outsource everything I was doing and and it's just not how such big companies work. So Yeah, I did your boss have any and I don't know well wishes for you or any advice He said you're making a huge mistake. He basically said That he was surprised and he expected me to sit at my desk for the next two weeks. And so I Said I said I said to him. Well, I don't have any more work to do Right and he said you'll figure something out and I still remember that to this day I remember his face when he said it. I remember him saying you'll figure something out And I just went back to my desk and I'm like, okay If I walk out now, I'm for sure never never coming back to the music industry Like I would be the person who walked out after this Executive at a huge company told me not to and I did anyway because I said to myself I can make no baked work. Okay, like for the life of me I will do whatever it takes to make this successful and I will not come back to this industry. I love that and that was the moment So you legit left right there? I walked out. I left my ID badge my parking pass on The desk. I didn't say bye to anyone. I went downstairs got in my car and then I googled How do you ship? Like all these stores restaurant depot these places I had never even seen looking for like gel packs and okay So now you're trying to figure out the shipping thing, but at the same time did any of these influencers or the Instagram people today Did they place any orders or did you see any signals from the market around like oh? Yeah, people are not following me because natural is very collaborative I think natural and Los Angeles are probably like the two most collaborative economies in the United States where everyone's trying to help you out Yeah, I grew up in Boston. It's not like that everyone's cuts like dog eat dog New York's very much the same way Chicago It's kind of a mix of two but being in the right city I tell people all the time like I tell people I'm a tropical flower Which means like I can only grow in certain climates and LA becomes that climate for me And I think Nashville for entrepreneurs has that also yeah when they were helping you What was some of the things like did you notice anything right away were they trying the product were they posting it? And they were like oh, this is maybe the best product ever had or yeah I think some of the first encouragement I got was actually from them because they were very honest in their feedback They said this is super delicious like have you ever thought about doing this flavor or like would you consider doing this with it? Okay, and so getting their honest feedback and then seeing them actually post because You know these influencers do have a certain level of credibility. They have to keep so I mean every influencer does but it's like They're not gonna post about something. They don't like exactly They don't want their followers to get something and be like why would you like this is terrible, right? So just the fact that they even posted when I was just giving them free samples. I didn't pay them or anything Made me feel confident that I had actually made something that tasted good. Yeah, and then Jimmy. What what is your story? So my story is Megan kept calling me And then she kept recruiting me to the kitchen eventually, you know as the business grew throughout the first two months. I Found myself Focusing more on no baked than my own job. What were you doing at the time? At the time I was actually working for the Tennessee Department of Treasury and I was helping them raise money for their college savings plan I've been doing stuff like that since I'd left college And so like finance finance heavy like sales stuff, and I didn't like it at all. What didn't you like about it? I Think the thing I didn't like was I wasn't passionate about what I was doing. Sure, so I would attempt to be passionate by Like either finding new ways to make what I was doing interesting or finding like new jobs Essentially, like I switched jobs three times. Okay a year and a half. Okay. It's the sign of an entrepreneur Yeah, sometimes switching jobs are just being fired from a job or literally like the best things that could happen to you Yeah, because you realize it's not you you're like, oh, it's it's the thing. I'm doing that sucks It's not me and there's this weird moment in that because sometimes people get down on themselves thinking like oh Maybe I'm not meant for this world or whatever But it's just like the world looks different. That's all yeah And you start to realize that you might be after something that you can't really put your finger on No big to became that thing for me So I quit my job in July of that year Megan started it the end of March so March 31st is the first day she posted on Instagram We consider that the birthday of no baked and there was this moment right before I quit my job that kind of like pushed Me over the edge where we had a pop-up event. It's called like the centennial spring bash and it happens in Nashville every year It's like makers and you know people who are hoping to start a CPG company or whatever Are like out there trying to sell their products and we had a line of people buying our cookie dough For like two and a half hours Wow, and it was like that first moment of validation where you're like And you're just an attempt, right? Yeah, you're just an attempt with a car Yeah, and you've got some cookie dough and jars and it's not really perfect. Yeah, and it's just the both of you Yeah, and you've loaded your car full Yeah, we have like famous people coming in buying cookie dough from us at this thing and we're like this doesn't make any sense And they're not as Yeah, and like that's the moment where we were both like yeah, we're all in that's also the moment our parents thought We were crazy because I think Megan's parents were comforted in the fact that like I was still working Okay, I think my dad that was the first time he had come in person and like seen no baked Sell anything and I just remember him sitting like underneath the pop-up tent and being like Huh, like this is interesting and I'm like, yeah, see like this is the thing people like this it could work I told you and I think it's normal like parents obviously Went some kind of safety and security for their kids But yeah, definitely friends and all your relatives too. I talked to one of my good friends about this just two days ago a Lot of the time like the worst advice you can get is advice that's like coming from a good place So like friends relatives parents being like hey Where you're at right now? It's good. You really shouldn't risk anymore Or you really shouldn't like overextend yourself You really shouldn't try for more like when we were doing the pop-ups and they were doing well It was like hey, why would you guys want to start a scoop shop? Yeah, and then after the first scoop shop did well It was like hey, aren't you cool with the scoop shop? Maybe you shouldn't try opening more and so on and so on like why would you keep trying to? Evolve this thing because each time you do it you do stick your neck out there I will say though that when you I don't want to say prove them wrong But when you feel what it's like to be right like yourself, there's you get addicted to that. Yeah, right like you're like I knew it I knew and then and then ideas don't sound so crazy anymore, right now You're like, oh, let's do 20 stores. Oh, what is distribution gonna be like there? Oh, we'll figure that out, but you get addicted to chasing the It's almost like the continuous knowledge. You're just kind of like yeah, I can do it It looks the same, but it's a little bit bigger. Let's just move forward. That's exactly what it's like. Yeah Yeah, that's the absolute best and so I want to go back to for the first month. What was that like? Like are there orders coming in every day? Is it like is it hit or miss? Is it how do we get this out there? It was definitely hit or miss. Yeah, I'd say not a constant flow of online orders, but a constant enough flow of people inviting us to pop up so We originally launched the online store, but then you know the next weekend I had a pop-up shop planned at the college that Jimmy and I went to And once we did that pop-up shop we realized, you know at the time this is 2017 people want to come in person And buy the cookie dough instead of ordering it online It's safer. They can try it. Yeah, and they were all located in Nashville at the time That was really the only reach we had so they were like, why can't we just buy it in person when we're in the same city? so we kind of put a ton of focus into starting pop-up shops and Those were consistent enough to where we were like, okay We've really got to figure out what we're doing. Yeah, then you've got the operational issues Like you like we had said like neither of us had worked in food Neither us knew what we were doing But that's another cool part about Nashville in particular. There's a really cool food scene Not necessarily in cpg, but in like just food in general So we worked out of this really cool commercial kitchen called citizens kitchen Which now is way bigger than it was back then and they gave us a ton of advice Just being around other entrepreneurs that were trying to do it That invigorated us and it also gave us the knowledge that we needed to solve Certain problems that you wouldn't think were problems Like how do you make a really big batch of cookie dough? Right? Yeah, prior to that it's like me in the kitchen with measuring cups being like, okay Well, if I multiply, you know a cup of flour by 10 I'll get 10 jars of cookie dough And it's like that's not how that's not how commercial baking works So tons of stuff to learn just about the food industry About how food works the regulations around it. It was a huge Learning and from a marketing perspective where you guys basically just on instagram. Yeah, facebook. That's it I was exclusively doing instagram at the time, you know, just working with influencers posting our pop-up shops Maybe doing some like paid promotion posts, but that's it Okay, and that was working and then in terms of how you guys were financing it Are you just everything you're making you're putting back into the business or did you guys? I think I got like 10 new credit cards that year. Oh, yeah And that all Yeah, I mean it it's weird when you actually look at the way that we like funded the business because the first summer Which was like just pop-up shops and online store and quitting our jobs Like I think I maxed out my last credit card Just trying to like pay for stuff for no bakes And then just paying our bills because obviously we still had to pay rent and like right food And then we just had this really cool time like getting the first store open where we didn't have enough money for a contractor But Megan was able to take out all these credit cards And I was able to convince my dad to come help me like build part of the store And it was just this really cool like seven week period where we found this old restaurant We redid like the bar that used to be like a cocktail bar into a cookie dough bar It was this old house. So we like painted it white and tried to make it look cool Yeah, I was very stubborn at the time. I was like, I'm not taking money from anybody. We will do this ourselves I have good credit. Let's just get everything we can how much debt did you guys get into enough? It wasn't so much. It was probably like 35 or 40 grand And then we paid all of that off in the first month of having that store open Oh, wow that the store killed it. Was it stressful? Maxing out credit cards at the time Yeah, I want to say yes, but there were we went back and did it again. You saw it. Yeah, I was gonna say three months later You knew what it meant not for us to be like we shouldn't be doing I mean we were 23 and really yeah I don't want to say dumb, but just naive. Yeah. So like we went back. We were like This sorted really well. This is like a month and a half in we're like we're bored. Let's build another store which is Probably not the best idea it ended up working out but like we went in doubled down We actually paid for a firm to come in and like help us with like franchise documents So we got like a law firm for franchising Paid for that paid for some operations consultants to help us make like an ops manual And then built the Louisville store And maxed all our credit cards out again. And this is like February of 2018. So like the business isn't even a year old Yeah, we were like we're just all in and then that one did even better than the first one And so then we got the mindset Well, we can't do anything wrong, you know, like we must be amazing at this, you know what we're doing Like this is flawless. Right, right, right, which Is obviously not true. Yeah, probably with any business, but that was us at the time That's amazing. Yeah, that led us into like the first season of like Issues that we had as a company. I want to talk about one thing Because this is something that a lot of entrepreneurs struggle with it's the concept of If I don't have seed capital and I'm going to go use my credit cards There's this thing that holds them back around like oh my credit score is going to go to crap And I always tell them like it's just a construct It doesn't really matter And like the fact of you saying that your freedom hinges on a score that you definitely don't need And worst case can improve over the course of six months or a year or two years or any time really It holds like there's a real thing that holds people back from It's like I have this great credit score. It took me so long to build it. I want to keep it But it's this like false. That's exactly it. It's like it's like a thing of like don't do that Yeah, jimmy and I Have the mindset of like if we can't afford to buy something. We're not going to buy it and also at the same time No baked is our Savings no baked is our future. Yeah, why would we let all the wealth that we have right? Yeah, that is that is where You know, we score ourselves. Why would we let some Made-up thing from society prevent us from building the thing that's actually Going to be our future you're not buying Bentley's Don't get me wrong We went through periods of time where we were like, yes, we should buy expensive things Live in these expensive places. But yeah us today We just lived in a bus for three and a half months So I think it just takes phases of like learning what actually matters To you it's a cool thing that entrepreneurs go through sometimes too like in your early 20s if you're the type of person that came right out and was like I'm gonna be an entrepreneur for a living and maybe it's not always the same company. Maybe you have some like Fails, maybe you have some like wins But it's always like on that first big win a lot of guys will go out a lot of guys and girls will go out and Just buy something ridiculous You have to have like all of those things happen to you In order to gain perspective and even the credit card thing and credit score like You have to actually like Really break what society has told you over and over again By actually going out and acting on it or you're gonna continue to believe like this credit score defines me Or like whatever it might be like how much money you have in the bank or whatever it is Instead of focusing on like the purpose or mission that you're going after like now all we think about is like How do we get our cookie dough into as many stores as possible? How do we get it in front of as many customers as possible? How do we drive toward the mission instead of like how much money can we make or Things like how can I approve my credit score? These like things that people wanted to find themselves off of when really it's just about Like the mission that you're out to do the impact. Yeah. Yeah, I totally agree Yeah, when people ask me like what what do I solve for I'm like, I'm always solving for impact And so in real estate development It's like I have the option I can do I can do residential Right so I can build this like beautiful multifamily building and maybe 45 people live in it Or I can build this coffee shop, which you know 200 people come to a day And like one of them is way more impactful than the other and like with a podcast It's like we distribute this everywhere wherever it goes people listen to it And so that's the impact we're just chasing impact And it keeps it honest and it's like super refreshing and I mean, it's awesome, you know, but that's like that's my north star And so it's that's what I'm always trying to solve for is impact not Not money. I think that'll be figured out for me like we have a rule in our house Like it's a rule really I just said it's like I don't buy anything big or fancy unless unless I've sold something And so if I sold the company or if I've sold the building that's when I'll lean into like let's go ham Like whatever, you know max it all like you're good with it because you have to I've learned that you have to celebrate some of the winds Yeah, otherwise, it's like what's the point yourself if something good happens and I think we still do that but You know, there were there were periods of time where we were like, this is so great. Let's let's buy a tesla, you know like Yeah, just things looking like things that today we would be a little more hesitant about What happened when covet hit your business and your location set to close the story? Yeah, I love the story so September of 2019 Megan and I this is about two and a half years after we started the company from just our apartment We had eight stores open Three franchises were just three of the eight stores were franchised We were doing well from the outside like looking in Our average unit volume at each store that we opened was lower and lower and lower each time we opened a store The stores in Nashville were doing really well And Megan and I really didn't like what we did for a living So I didn't like running the scoop shops and and neither did Megan and We'd gotten in so deep that it's all we did and you know You add a new door like you add a new shop like it's twice as much work So we basically signed up for five times as much work plus the franchisees mentoring them and And helping them succeed and not only did we just not have it in us at the time Which I think we've grown over time and you know Continually done better a bit like at the time it was like dude. We just we just don't like doing this So we decided like hey, we need to go back to trying to sell online Try to get back to the product because that's why we started the business like Megan loved her cookie dough I loved it That's what we liked doing like sharing it with people. I love to do in pop-up events I just wanted to get the cookie dough in front of more customers And that was kind of what we were desperate for and we thought the way which scoop shops when really it was You need to solve for the best distribution model the best impacts like what you said So like really figure out like how do I have the most impact with my product? Well It was really cpg the whole time The margins just aren't very good in cpg So when you're younger and you're a little short-term minded You're going to be like well, let me open this scoop shop where I can make insane gross margin Versus like if I go to a grocery store making nothing So at the time we were more focused on money and not impacts. So In September or October of 2019. We changed that mindset Put together this plan of We're going to sell online We're going to try to prove it as a cpg products and then kind of go from there. We're going to pivot the company So that was interesting because it happened right before covid that winter was really hard We had really overextended ourselves this summer before building stores So we're coming into february Really low on cash super low like megan and I haven't paid ourselves in like seven months We're in like the red zone as far as like a company And then we had a tornado in nashville shut one of our stores down And it was a store. We were actually trying to shut down. So we were like, all right Well, we were going to pivot this store into a production facility So let's just go in, you know when they clean up the tornado damage And we're going to do production there and start shipping our online orders out of that store This is march of march 3rd of 2020 and obviously at that point we're like tracking covid saying like, you know I wonder what will happen if this actually gets here like what happens to our business because we're food and people have to come in So it was kind of already in our head like what might happen And megan was also nine months pregnant at the time. Wow. So it was a very rough month. That's a stressful to be a wow All right, you don't pay yourself for seven months. You're nine months pregnant. Yep. Yeah, it was a tornado Nice March 16th, we shut all our stores down And I actually had been driving back and forth to Cincinnati at the time because we had lost our manager recently In march 16th actually felt really good Like it's weird to talk about but I had told you already like back in september We were like, hey, we don't really like doing this business. Yeah, it made it obvious for you Yeah, and I grinded all winter Trying to like make sure like we're cutting costs like I'm in the stores like helping the managers do things like Really getting my hands dirty in the business and I was working like 80 hours a week Doing something I didn't like doing so then march 16th rolls around and I'm like, all right This feels kind of freeing. This is weird That feeling led into I think the success that feeling and then the clarity that megan had because right after that on that day She said something to me that was so powerful She was like look like we're just gonna have to like make it through and put together a plan to survive But we didn't just put a plan together to survive We took this plan that we had already had to grow the online store and we just put it into overdrive like Let's take all the employees that were at our scoop shops bring them over to that german town store Let's start producing cookie dough. Let's post and contact all the influencers we've ever worked with have them post about it Let's partner with our friend that runs a digital agency and like start spending money on facebook ads Like we had no cash in the bank and he was like just commit 400 dollars a day 300 400 dollars a day to instagram ads to see what happens and All of the stars just aligned because anyone that was doing e-com at the time knows Facebook returns were better than they'd been since 2014 The influencer posting worked our online store sales went from like 20 grand a month to like 80 grand a week It was insane Like wild stuff like we're getting like 200 orders a day And so by the end of march like our daughter was born on march 31st And I was able to like go to the hospital with megan and and not work and not check my email It was like a complete shift. It happened over two weeks and it took no money I mean you could say the pandemic like spurred it on but really the only thing that really needed to happen Was we needed to be like We're shifting like we had said we were going to pivot and we didn't for months We just set up the online store again Started sort of marketing it weren't putting a lot of effort into it. It was a shift in effort. Yeah. Yeah That's so weird Like I love that and and covid forced it to happen We kind of were just Very honest with ourselves about what we needed to do and then My marketing plan became like Let's just be very honest with our customers. Like I literally posted pictures of our staff members And I was like look We don't want to lose these people these people will pay their mortgages with the money we pay them Please like if you've ever wanted to support us if you've ever wanted to buy cookie dough, this is the time And I think the fact that we were so transparent actually worked. That's crazy. That's a good story That's a really really good story. Congratulations on your daughter And at least she entered the world with some clarity from your business You know during covid we interviewed a lot of companies and I think the thing that I took away the most was is it forced them to do the only thing that was working And it forced them to just focus on that one thing because all of a sudden nobody was it No one's going to stores. There's no crowds. And so if you're a food truck or whatever you are, it's over But if you're in the grocery market or e-commerce That's it Like that's where you have to go and if you can control your own supply chain Then you're golden right because it's not like you're waiting on china for this shipment It's like that you're making it and so it's just about scaling up And in that, you know, I think all the companies we've spoken to like did the best ever they did their Two four five times better than any other previous year or month Just because it made it simple it made business simple simple and quotes of like yeah They knew what to focus on because there was only one thing working That's probably true for a lot of people Did you get out of all the leases or how did did you close some down? We did close some down today. We have three corporate stores that are still open two of our franchisees are still open We've really shifted our business model to for our scoop shops to focus a lot on delivery Making the product more accessible to people that way And also for our eats and stuff like that. Yeah, okay got it and for our corporate stores It's more about brand recognition. So Two of the original five stores remain We actually opened a new store a few months ago on broadway in Nashville And it's just a like small kiosk inside a food hall But it's a small kiosk inside a food hall like it's 17 million visitors a year So it's like the idea of brand recognition and the idea of continuing to like focus on I guess the thing that makes the largest impact dude. I love that I'm gonna start stealing it. Yeah take it because it's it's one of those things that it actually makes a lot of sense Like that's that's where it heads at Like how do we get our brand in front of as many people as possible? So we can let the consumer decide like did they like our cookie dough? And if they do then you know, we have something and if they don't then We'll figure it out and how many flavors you guys have today So we usually have eight flavors at all times. Um, sometimes we have seasonal flavors monthly flavors But pretty much eight constant flavors. What are your favorites? What are your like your top three? My favorite is s'mores Which is actually not one of our most popular flavors sadly. I would tell people to order it more And then chocolate chip which was the original and then brownie batter. Okay My favorite is definitely chocolate chip and then um, we actually have lemon sugar It's about to not be available anymore, but I love that flavor. Yeah lemon sugar As you guys think about your daughter now that mentally you're in a place of like, okay Now we're life's life's bigger than us in a very real way. How do you view? Like how she will grow up with her parents as titans in the cookie dough world like Like she'll she'll be like, yeah, my parents live a fake life. Like my dad doesn't wear a suit Yeah, my hope is that that becomes normal, you know, like My parents are small business owners, but Even for me, I didn't grow up with this like Idea that, you know, your dad goes to work in a suit sits in an office all day and then comes home. It's like Half the time I was in their warehouse climbing on rolls of carpet. Like they have a business in the flooring industry. So my hope is that we can expose her to enough of it to where she thinks that entrepreneurship and kind of You know building your own thing is normal and that she doesn't have to follow What society tells her she should follow? I mean, it's it's really cool if we're able to Not just show her but continue to show other people that Life is a little bit more about creativity Than what people would lead you to believe like you can totally go To a great college Get a good job Make a decent salary, you know, like have good credit and a lot of people like doing that. That's fine It's very linear. I mean it's very linear. Yeah, whereas like the people I've seen in life that are the happiest or the most successful Are really enjoying themselves They're just being creative They're just doing what they like to do or they're trying to find things that they find interesting and trying to just like Whether it be solve problems or just make something that's beautiful or cool I've always had a ton of respect for my friends In nashville and actually out here now that whether they're pursuing like music or art Or a new business or whatever it might be. I like those things Like those people are at least trying to do it like they're trying to make something cool happen And there's nothing wrong like megan said with like just the normal linear path, but it's not the only the only way Yeah, I think one thing that you're touching on that I've I've recognized recently is the more I do these kinds of things The more I feel like an artist which sounds so crazy like I went to school for civil engineering We're mega logical. We're math, you know, and then I went to business school and it's like same thing It's like super linear very business And so the thought of me saying the word like I'm feel like I'm becoming an artist is crazy Like it's a hard left But the more I do this that's how it feels like there is a real In business you learn how to let things flower on their own even that sounds like that you'll never hear any business Starting with a blank canvas. Yeah and drawing you're creating as you go. Yeah Yeah, you're creating and so what I think about it is like you you you criticize through creation You know, you see what doesn't exist in the world that you think should And then you put a coffee shop in West Hollywood and you're like This should be here for the people, you know, and I think it's such a different mindset When you realize you're in control of that like you're in control of the rules Yeah, it's a way different mindset too when Like you probably went to business school with the thought process of like, well, we'll give you this business and you'll manage it versus like Growing it from like a baby little seedling of an idea like that's artistry Yeah, whereas like managing something may not necessarily always have to be artistry But it can be do you guys ever think about Maybe hiring like an operations person that just runs the stores Or are you guys so fixated on just the e-commerce side of it now? That's actually what we did recently. We have a killer regional manager. That's her title But I mean she's really just jack of all trades like keeps the stores running Perfect. Like I don't worry about them anymore. I think about them. Yeah And she's been a killer team member in that regard and we have a great ops manager who Communicates with the franchisees better than we ever could Yeah, and and she also helps us with like econ operations that side of things But as we grow the business that's been our main focus is Putting the right team in place kind of like If you put it into like sports analogy, it's like I have like so much budget to buy certain players And like I'm trying to get like the best ones I possibly can on the cheap at this point in time But most our biggest focus on that is always like operations Because it's not something that our strong suit is like We're both pretty creative And there's something to be said about like being really detail oriented really organized and operationally minded that I have a ton of respect for Yeah, I total like I think this is the one thing I would say younger entrepreneurs struggle with it's like For some reason they don't want to learn how to hire people like hiring people is hard, right? I mean, let's play it out one they can leave Two, what do you do then three hiring is they've never done it before So it's like learning a whole new sport and they think it's easy and it's totally not easy as you guys know But I think it's like the best thing people can learn like outsource delegate Become an executive stop being a project manager Yeah, the other struggle is when you are starting from the ground up and I experience this You don't want to release any control to anyone else because Your mindset is this is my thing nobody else can do it as good as I can I'm just gonna have to do it all And I did that in the beginning. I think the first scoop shop. I was probably working like Every day in it because I was like Nobody can manage this like I can they don't know the cookie dough. They don't understand which is partially true To some extent it's like you own it and so then you get to a point where you're like Well, I can't do it all or else this is the end of no bake's life You know, this is as far as it's gonna go So you have to release control and accept that things won't be perfect, but there's tons of people That are great that are capable of doing things You know as well as you will you guys ever remove yourselves as uh, Let's call it like the co CEOs and have bringing someone else to make you guys more like a chairman We've chairwoman. We've thought about that concept a lot recently. Yeah, just as we begin the path to scale Yeah It's interesting because it's like you really want to have the right people in the right seats But sometimes the right people is like a moving target So like right now I think it's important for us to be like that for the company Like megan's titles CEO and mine's like chief strategy officer. I don't even know what that means. Sure. I just made it up It's for the world. That's right. The world. Yeah So But our goal right now is like megan attempts to like really really focus on like brand products I attempt to focus on building relationships and creating like sales from like a prospecting perspective like What can I do to go out into the world and just be myself? And let our product be itself and make connections And like when it comes to finance and operations, which is like the other side of the business Like how can we hire for that right now to support what we're doing? Whether it be outsourcing it, which I've had a lot of very smart people tell me that's the way to go I've had a lot of people that are really smart tell me like no, you need to hire people in house Pay them with equity and like create a culture There's two different mindsets. Yeah, I mean like we have to choose between I'll give you my take on this It's totally personal to you. So for me when I had a tech company I hated like I hated hearing about my employees tinder date and how it went bad and why they weren't a bad mood all day Like I'm like, I'm not your therapist I'm here to hustle and look, this is a me thing like I know people are going to listen to be like, ah, what a dick And that's totally okay. Like that you should you should take that judgment because I'm being me Like I am not that guy I'm not I don't want to be the mom in the office Like I just want to go come in execute and I want to go home early So I can go work out or like eat my food the way I want to eat it Not be in the office till 7 p.m uber eating and so It was this thing where it's like totally a personal decision and for me. I hated I literally I met with one of our investors and he was like jot down There's like this app you can get it's like an extension to chrome and he's like just jot down your all your time So when you get into the office email time team time Therapist time when you're getting your team back to like normal and literally 45 percent of my day was spent on Making sure my guys were ready to perform all day because they're in their 20s And you know, they're experiencing real life like they're maybe hung over which is totally fine Like I'm not I'm not saying don't do that those things It's just like I didn't personally enjoy Being the person that had to resuscitate them back to normal human life And that's a me problem And so I was like, okay, so here are my options now that I know who I am I can either hire someone who's good at that like a really good ops person who can make them feel fuzzy Or I can be like no, this isn't the business for me. I'm just gonna go do I'm gonna take a left and like leave and I'm gonna go do what I want to do But it's a personal decision. So for me, that's why I'm not in tech anymore And I'll never be the guy who has like 200 employees. Like that's not That is so not me. That's when you're just a leader Like that's when you become a leader and that's what you are. That's why like in real estate development My job is really to hire the experts. That's what we do now. And so it's like I can't be the architect I can't be the engineers But you know, I can wrangle everybody together and make sure everyone's executing But I'm also not their parent. I'm not in the office with them. I'm not hearing You know, I'm just making sure everything's hitting the timelines it needs to hit And so that's more suited for me. So that's why I do what I do now And it's a lot more suited to like me, but it's also a function of knowing who you are That's really what this is like business will have a way of showing you who you really are And that's okay to like lean in I just lean fully into being me unapologetically And then you know in business, obviously you guys are together in it, but it's also There's differing opinion there too. And so you have to find a way to Do what you want to do while you do what you want to do and so You know the brand building to me is super fun, right? I mean that's like who doesn't like doing that. Yeah. Yeah, and so The best part Yeah, but anyway, that's just my story. I'm like how I would make the decision based on what you really want to do That's how I feel about like choosing whether it be a ceo or a ceo Or like other people to bring in house like It has a lot to do with that what you just talked about like What are we just not like doing because that's why we stopped leaning into the scoop shops Because we felt like it wasn't the best way to get our product out there distribution wise like with the impact but it's also Not what we like to doing and if you don't like something You gotta do it. Yeah. Yeah. You just have to stop. I think that's another lesson It's like if you don't like it, don't do it like let procrastination be your guide, right? It's like if you don't want to do that thing and your body's like, uh like lean it listen to that and go I need to hire someone to do this Or find another way whatever that looks like Like i'm a big fan of automation and so I mostly try to outsource things. That's just me again going back to that story before It's like delegate and outsource. That's it. It makes my life simple. You and a lot of other people Yeah, yeah, like I said like I think society has a way of clouding that for some people like they're like Oh, why am I a bad person and sometimes you like have this like desire to have a team Just because like people will go out. It's all these things that people want to like write about like Having a team that's sweet is this My revenue is this we raise this much money. Yeah, whatever it might be these vanity metrics Yeah, so the two things i'm solving for so I shared one impact the second thing is time And so I want to have all my time. That's my metric And so how do I do that employees is not that way right employees and time are Completely at opposite ends of that spectrum Yeah, because you always end up putting a lot of time into like just managing those people Yeah, no the tech company for me it was more of um So we had this company where I'm convinced the idea is going to work. I'm convinced of that. I'm convinced that They'll solve the problem. It's just going to take another like I'm going to say by 2030 they'll solve the problem And so for me it became a situation where do I really want to do this for another seven to 10 years? And the answer for that was pretty quickly like absolutely not But we had these you know pretty big investors Like big names in silicon valley and stuff and so I know people would view the company in a nice way But I also had the intimate knowledge of knowing it's a good idea. It's just not going to be something That's a home run for another seven to ten years and I didn't want to be With it at all. And so I was able to luckily like sell my shares Of the company which was fun and an interesting process. It's like an interesting chess game It's like I have information That like I know exactly what's happening, right? I'm in the business And their optics are we're betting on the future of the business And so you're trading what you know for what could happen and it's a very weird moment actually That is interesting. It's a very strange game where it's not it's not like you're lying It's not like you're like no that could never be it's more of like this is a home run But it's a home run in 2030 and so there's a reason i'm selling also right so from their perspective It's like oh if that's the case why are you selling? And it's like well, I don't want any affiliation to something that i'm not a part of right So that's like a personal thing for me And so I just want to sell it off and even if i'm taking a haircut or whatever I don't care like I just don't want I don't want to think about it. I don't want the mind share I just want to be out And so you know you trade on that on that information And so I was like all right i'm done and that was it and I got all my time back Which was something I was solving for and then I moved to la and I was like wow the real estate here is really weird Could we do something in the real estate development game? And I just was like sure people always ask me how do I get into it? I'm always like I just decided and that was it and but but thing is like the building blocks are I knew how to raise capital I knew how to put a deal together You know and so those things are the same And then somehow I had to lean back maybe you felt this As you're raising with your finance background like I was a civil engineer thinking I would never ever in my life Be in construction around that world and now I am literally Right and it makes me better like honestly it makes me a better developer because I can read plans Most developers are finance people who can't They can't read drawings. They don't know what things mean they can they can understand them at a high level But not you can't be like no this is this is like what a footing looks like this footing is not right You know like things like that and so it made me a sharper I guess developer and so it's a weird way of like life all comes back in some way and everything you've learned Has a way of coming back and culminating into making you a sharper individual Yeah, jimmy's financial background has definitely helped us even just understanding You know the concept of raising money. Yeah, I think understanding deal terms and then What you said about selling your shares makes a lot of sense In a lot of different ways because a lot of people don't necessarily understand the reason to raise capital Especially from a startup's perspective When you're us when it's like What are you guys doing with this money? They're like, why do you need it and why in the world? Is it eventually going to be so valuable that you know, this makes sense as an investment? And when it's something that burns cash like, you know I'm going to take this product in the grocery store and I need to acquire new customers Or running a subscription business acquire new customers running a software business Acquire new customers. It's all about like bringing Money behind a good product so you can get it out in front of people Because these days like we we run like an information and attention economy So like you need money to get attention And that attention is currency that allows your product to get out there just because you have a cool product or a cool song Or you got talent or whatever it might be That doesn't mean anything unless people watch Which is really interesting to like get into Well, I mean like I'm an investor today and whenever I give I write a check or whatever. It's like I don't hold this the founders accountable in any capacity I'm like I believe in this idea and I believe you're the person execute it and like there's no strings attached Use me however you want. I won't check in with you. I won't ask you any questions I'm just a fan like I'm a fan and I'm showing you this check as a function of energy This is me saying I've built this energy and I'm giving it to you And so money my relationship with money has totally changed also like I don't and it's not because I have it It's more of like a mindset like to what you're saying like the currency is the eyeballs the currency Is getting your product out there. It's the impact the currency is not the money The money just allows that to facilitate a little bit easier. Yeah, you know, it's like the plumbing Yeah, and the way that you said like I'm just a fan like when you invest in a company Like whether it be like public company or you go to a crowdfunding site and invest in something like our company Or you're an angel and like, you know, you write like a hundred thousand dollar check to this cool new startup like You really should be doing it based off the product Like I hate when people are like What was the past performance like it's great to ask about sales because sales are like basically validation Yeah, like if I say like we've sold like seven eight million dollars of cookie dough over four years You'd be like cool. That means seven eight million dollars worth of people Like they they put that energy into like getting that product So that's validation, but like profitability Like business model maybe is like you want to get into that but those things can shift and change when the product that's not going to change And if people don't like the product, that's not good If they like the product and you're just not getting it to mark it in the right way Or you just need more money to be able to get the attention to get the product out there Whatever that might be I think those are that just is the name of the game But if your product's bad It's probably where you should start like do I like this thing? I think like business 101 investing is like, uh, you want to at minimum you want to invest in the product That's doing so well despite the idiots running like that's Okay, that would be an awesome company. That just saved you like a stanford mba Like literally don't go just right because anyone can solve that like a private equity firm could solve that You as an investor might be able to solve that And like you said, it's the whole it's the product and that's why private equity buys those companies all the time Totally. Yeah, that's what they're good at exactly. We can solve this. We're good at building a brand and a product And getting sales they can come in and figure out how to like increase margin I mean, you can't start from like a really bad spot That's the other thing in cpg that gets really frustrating And I don't know if you've ever experienced this you've had some other guys that were in cpg on the podcast And people focus on gross margin like it is the end of the world And I understand why because if you don't have a good gross margin story, like the product will never scale and that's a fact But if you have a path to gross margin and maybe a path to profit, that's not, you know, built on fairytales That's built on like real actual research data partnerships commitments that matters But like I hate when someone wants to look at like an entrepreneur Especially someone who's younger like thinking about starting this business. They may not they may do it And you just look at them and you're like gross margins aren't there Just give up Like you can't say that to someone that's ridiculous. Yeah I mean one of the things I learned in raising capital a long time ago is once I'm getting those questions I'll I'll leave I'll end the meeting. I'm like, this isn't for you Like I'll tell the investor this is not for you and and frankly and I also tell them like look If you're looking at my five-year projections and you're trying to Like be like yeah, like you're an idiot like don't look at those like I'm lying to you It's just made up. I'm gonna be wrong for sure I'm gonna be wrong. That's that's the thing with like finance people Like I'm trying to find the right like outsourced cfo right now to to help us kind of like build out the plan for the next however many years And they're always like so do you guys have a budget? I'm like, yeah, we have like a loose budget They're like do you have sales projections? I'm like, I mean I could They'd be wrong. They've never been right. I've I've done it before I did a whole entire projection before the pivot to ecom the Numbers that we hit in april of 2020 were the numbers I thought we'd hit in april of 2021 Right, so it was like that's a happy problem. What yeah, it's a happy moment And then there's the reverse of like I did projections for like new stores and The store does like 80 percent or 70 percent of the revenue. I thought it would and it completely throws off the financial model Yeah, which shouldn't have even been like leaned into that much in the first place I mean I'm dealing with that now. So we're building out a brewery insider house and As you guys may have seen in the news lumber prices and basically all material costs are significantly up and so Here I had a beautiful model. I'm like, this is great. I have 20 percent mark up just in case on the construction side And now I'm facing like a 40 percent issue Just for materials and so it's it's like, okay Let's rewrite the model. Let's go back to the investors and go ahead and just tell the future You can't and the thing is like it doesn't even bother me, you know, don't and so I just lean into being Transparent with the investor saying like look, this is a situation. I'm sure you guys have all seen it in the headlines We need more capital It's that simple the good news is the returns aren't impacted that much like You're fine in other words like you're gonna make money It might have not be it might have it like it went from a grand slam To like an inside the park home run like we're still good. It's different now And that's just how it goes. I hadn't thought about that for your world. Did that like impact a lot of people? Not so much people it just I mean, well, I guess it did in In my world it just made things more expensive And so if you're tight on capital, it's gonna make things tough for the entire Like any any developer effectively and the whole ecosystem. You guys have to raise rent maybe This is a good question. So Yes and no, so I go back to like you're in real estate development. My number one job is to keep my tenant alive That's how I look at it. That's the approach I take right because ultimately they're the ones providing income to the asset And so I am very much of the mindset help your tenant. That's me Help them stay alive. So if you give them a super high rent that they can't pay It's not good for their business, right? And so they're they're gonna end up renegotiating their lease or canceling and Now you have a bigger problem And so my mindset always goes to keep them alive But in that I'm also honest with them being like, look, we just spent 500 000 more Whatever that number is on this project and we have to recoup that in some way And so what are your options? Let's look at other ways of getting debt, right? You can refinance early, right? And so there's other Basically, there's like a lot of different bullets you can take one of them being raise the rent But that's the most simple answer. That's the simple one for sure. And I'm I'm definitely saying it's on the table But it's like something I'll put at the bottom of the list You know, it's worst case scenario That makes sense. Yeah, the other thing in la is like we have a lot of You know taking a long-term view the olympics are coming in 2028 And so with all the infrastructure build out happening It's like I'm gonna be on the receiving end of that wave And at a certain point that's amazing Like you see them saying like all the assets all the real estate becomes That much more like we're gonna there's an uplift by doing nothing other than the olympics coming I I'm not worried about it. I'm not like It's not concerning to me. It's just more of like an annoying problem. I have to deal with which is We all deal with them I get really fascinated by stuff like that because it always affects like short-term cash Or like short-term like where's the money going right now? Is there money in the bank to pay these bills? But everybody seems to have this understanding like I posted on linkedin the other day this poll I was just like do you think it's more important to have a path to profit? Or to make money right now And like 87 percent of people are like path to profit and this poll gets like 300 people to answer it. I'm like Wow, it's crazy But that's the flip side of like what how like I guess like a bank would look at something Like today or how some people like will like get short term minded about stuff when they get scared But whenever there's no fear involved or someone's just asked the question They're like, oh a path to profit that's make value Like that's grow something cool or do what you said like just solve for impact Build this cool building this cool development develop this tenant make this cool thing happen build a community But like fear gets in the way of that a lot Because short-term cash is I mean it is important to pay your bills. I've killed that In my head. I don't have that anymore. That's good. The fear is gone. Yeah If I'm alive, I'm like if I'm alive, I'll figure it out like I'm waking up tomorrow There's not a problem. I can't solve. Yeah, that's I mean that's my approach and the only thing that gets me upset Like yesterday this happened yesterday. So right now I'm like, okay, I had to revisit the model. I'm raising more capital And I was upset yesterday because it was sunday And nobody works on sunday. So I'm here modeling this out and I like want to get it I want to solve the problem But I can't because if I send this email out no one's going to read it today See what I'm saying because it's sunday and so I'm like, that's the thing that gets me It's it's sometimes the society has a way of impacting progress And so first thing Monday morning comes in and I'm like, I'm all right done emails done Shipped it out. Let's start solving the problem if it was saturday it'd be even worse And so, you know, that's how I look at it. I think being able to eliminate fears is an important part of entrepreneurship Yeah, I think you learn it you learn how to do it because you realize it does nothing for you Like you realize in your fearful state. You're just being selfish. Your business isn't improving You're not putting your product out there And you're coming from a place of like defense. Yep, and I just play offense like I'll play defense when I'm A CEO of like a public company and I have to play defense But that'll never happen because I have no interest in employees again. I'm just gonna play offense Yeah, I think that's important to say and like to continue saying to like other people and just reinforcing the like mindset and the thought process like, hey If we focus on creating value solving problems, we'll figure it out It sounds ridiculous to like a vc or like a bank. They're just like, what do you mean? You're just gonna figure it out But you figured out you'll figure it's gonna happen. That's how life works. Yeah. Well, thanks guys for coming on Yeah, thank you so much working people find you And try your delicious products So our website is no baked cookie dough.com and then all social media is just no baked no baked. Yep Support these guys. I like it Thanks so much