 It's December the 2nd, it's Wednesday, it's 11 o'clock, that means only one thing. Rediscovering America. I'm Tim Apachele, your host. And not to be disappointed, once again, we have more news items than we'll have time today. But the title of the show is Trump, the Mad King's rant, FBI, DOJ, or MIA. So Donald Trump has accused the FBI and the Department of Justice that they're just not there for him to uphold his conclusions and his allegations that the election was rigged and the election was stolen from him. And the FBI and the Department of Justice, they're not playing along and he's not happy about it. In fact, he's even implied that they're part of the conspiracy. So where do you go from there? Well, let me tell you where you go from there. I'm going to read a couple of quotes that should say it all. And one is from, believe it or not, Donald Trump's buddy William Barr, William Barr of the one who he just accused of being part of the cabal to not uphold the investigation to prove that there was a fixed rigged election, that the ballots were flipped and they were rigged. So here's what William Barr says, to date, we have not seen fraud on a scale that could have affected a different outcome in the election. William Barr just nailed one of the nails in the coffin to close this election allegation shut. The other quote is from the Third Circuit Court of Appeals by Judge Stefanos Bebas. It's a three-panel judge. And he said, free, fair elections are the lifeblood of democracy. Charges of unfairness are serious. A con election unfair does not make it so. Charges require specific allegations and then proof we have neither here. So with that, let me go to my guests. Good morning, everybody. Today we have Jay Fidel, Cynthia Lee Sinclair, Stephanie Dalton, and Winston Welch. Here we go again, another wild week, another wild week of allegations and unproven, unfounded allegations. Jay, these two quotes, one from the Federal Court of Appeals and his buddy William Barr, does that put the nail in the coffin for Donald Trump on his pursuing these allegations either out of court or in court? With whom? You know, with us guys, it puts the nail in the coffin. And we look at the margin of the base and we say, well, it must be putting the nail in the coffin for them too. But yesterday I got an email from somebody here in Honolulu who firmly believes that Trump is still right, who believes that Democrats are Marxists, socialists, and communists, and they're wrecking the Constitution. So what you have is a problem about truth. And Tim, I sent you an article. Maybe I copied all you guys about truth, the Constitution of Truth. And we've lost it to some extent and a big challenge now to get it back. So I consider all the stuff you see on MSNBC and CNN. It's a reality show. It's a distraction. It's very dramatic, it's very interesting and very repetitive, I might add. And predictable. But the bottom line is that Trump isn't doing anything to help the country. Zero. Zero. Did I say that? Zero. And meanwhile, there's no president. There's no president and the country is falling into an abyss. While we're all distracted with the end game here for Trump's presidency. I'd like to interject an alternative thought on this. And I think he is doing something. He's doing something for himself. He has raised since Election Day $170 million. And that was supposed to be the Election Defense Fund called Steal the Vote. That was supposed to be money used to overturn all these court decisions and pay for attorneys to prove that fraud was laden in the five states. Well, in fact, if it's a donation under $5,000, gets you gets it. Donald Trump has opened up an organization called Save America. And every dollar received, if it's under $5,000, he gets 75% of it. The rest goes to pay down campaign debt. And then the Republican National Committee gets the rest of it. So last week, I suggested that this is all about campaign donations and getting money. He'll need money in the future to pay for attorneys after the Southern Manhattan District comes after him. He'll need to pay for an attorney that charges $2,000 an hour. And he'll need money for his kids just because. So I think he is doing something. He's doing something for himself. Well, I think, you know, to go to your question for a moment more, and that is what's happening here is that the fringes of the Republican Party are turning against him. They, you know, they have to admit that what he's doing is really crazy. And they see all the court decisions. They see, you know, remarks by people in government, even people who he appointed who have been his friend up to this point who are not so loyal anymore. And you can assume that there's people out there in the community. You know, the fringes of the base that are being likewise affected. And as we go forward, this is my theory I expressed before. The power will drain from him. His popularity will drain. And he said that on Inauguration Day, sorry, he can't be at the Inauguration of Joe Biden, but he is going to kick off his 2024 campaign that very day. And he's going to be campaigning for the next four years. I'm not sure he has the popularity. In fact, my theory is that he held very little popularity going forward. He's a loser and people are going to start to get that. As he loses the power of the presidency, he's going to lose at least a substantial part of his following. Watch and see. Well, to quote you from previous shows, Donald Trump to not go to the Inauguration and on that same day kick off his 2024 campaign to use your quote, that's gross. So I'll leave it at that. I stand by my quote. I know you two. Hey, Stephanie, what do you think about this? Now, do you think there's any correlation or any coincidence? I don't think I don't believe in coincidence. I believe in synchronicity. Donald Trump threw Bill Barr under the bus by suggesting that he's part of the cabal to undermine his claims of election fraud. And when Bill Barr said what he said, and I just read that quote at the beginning of the show. You think there's any correlation to Bill Barr not being happy with that and coming out with the unsealed documents that there might be a pay for play on pardons versus a camp versus a payment. We don't know who we don't know who yet. But at this point, we know that someone's going to get a pardon. And there was the discussion or the entertainment of a discussion that there might be some financial rewards if a pardon was issued. You think there's any correlation to this? There might be. Obviously, Barr is looking to his own concerns and his own fanny. Now, I mean, certainly that one siding with no foul in the election. So he may be wanting to do something different. But it's very confusing because he's really ruined his reputation and his credibility with the world. I don't know who he thinks he's going to go work for or maybe he could do something with DeGenova and Giuliani. I mean, I just don't. I want to be clear, Stephanie. He cannot be either a host or a guest on Think Tech. All right, we're not in. Okay, he's certainly not coming to my program. But I wanted to say that. Well, there goes my job. I just hope that Jay's actually very positive take on what's going to happen to Trump is going to work out. I'm most hopeful, but I'm appalled again because in D.C., the election takes place at one end of the mall, right? On the Capitol, if it's going to be looking West. And then that mall goes all the way to the Lincoln Memorial. So I have this image of Trump down at the Lincoln Memorial competing with Biden up at the Capitol with these millions of people along the mall. So hopefully we're not going to have that kind of a ranging competition. Remember, because Trump has been very concerned about attendance at his. And now he knows he's got the 70 million. So this thing is looking like a disaster. And with the pandemic, I only hope that we're going to cancel anybody going to the inauguration. It's too cold anyway. You're usually freezing your ankles off standing in mud if you go to the inauguration. So I'm going to just cancel that and do it online. I mean, just get it on TV so everybody can hear the speech and see it up close. Because we've got a crisis. That is what I think he's trying to do. Is a physical confrontation of these two bands. Well, isn't this a page right out of the Apprentice? I mean, really? I never watched the Apprentice. I am proud to say. I watched it once. That's all I needed. I had no interest. Well, it is a page out of reality TV. And I think you're right. And it's throwing democracy under the bus. And in the meantime, Donald Trump's raising $170 million. If you really, if he's on the same pace that he is right now, in 60 days, he could have, well, another $250 million easy. So take 250 plus 170, that's a whole lot of jingle. And why not motivate to to allocate a fraud, election fraud, when you're going to get over $300 million? And a lot of that's going to go to you personally. Well, are those hardworking people donating? Is there been any report on who's giving him that money? Is that hardworking people out of his base? Or are those mega donors? I mean, none of that. Well, if it's a mega donor, then it does go to the defense fund. It does go to steal the vote campaign fund. That's a Roger Stone organized campaign fund to pay for attorneys to challenge these things. But if it's under 5,000, it goes either to the RNC, pay down campaign debt, or to Donald Trump's new Help Save America fund. So I feel bad for these people. I do too. You know, we're having hard times enough as it is. And I'm pretty certain that most of his followers aren't all that well-enriched with excess funds. And here they are, giving what little they have to Donald Trump. Exactly. It's a Trump university scheme all over again. They're better off going to McDonald's. Let's prop the economy up with that money. Don't give it to Donald. Get your burger. Get your big burger. OK, thank you, Stephanie. Hey, Cynthia. Donald Trump's attorney, Joe Deveneva. I want to say Joe Deveneva. Yeah, you know what he said on the Howard Carr show? I remember that Chris Krebs, the cybersecurity director for Homeland Defense, was terminated because he spoke truth to power. He spoke that there was no rigging of voting machines and there was no cyber attacks that would anyway throw the election. And he said it. And because he said it, that opposed Donald Trump's position. And he was terminated shortly thereafter. Well, Donald Trump's attorney has said on the Howard Carr show. And I quote, this guy is a class a moron. He ought to be drawn and quartered and taken out at dawn and shot. This is Donald Trump's attorney. And Cynthia, what he has come out to say is I'm going to say it again. There was no fixing. There was no cyber attacks. There was no flipping of voting machines that went from Trump to Biden. Dominion was not a factor here. And the results, the recount show that there was a matchup between the Dominion's voting machines and a matchup to the paper ballots. So what's Donald Trump do? He sicks his attorney on him. And Chris Krebs is in so much implied that he probably will seek a legal opinion or two and maybe go after this attorney. Your thoughts about this kind of shenanigans as Joe Biden likes to say, this malarkey. I think this goes way beyond malarkey or shenanigans. This is dangerous, illegal, threatening behavior, which is serious. And I have some quotes from Chris Krebs that I just want to read really quick, which I thought was really great. On November 17th, I was dismissed as director of the Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency, a Senate confirmed post in a tweet from the president. After my team and other election security experts rebutted claims of hacking of the 2020 election. On Monday, a lawyer for the president's campaign plainly stated that I should be executed. I am not going to be intimidated by these threats from telling the truth to the American people. I thought those were some pretty powerful words. And then we've got this other guy from Georgia today, Sterling, another election official who has come out and it was one, I get chicken skin just thinking about it even, where he came out and said, this has to stop. People are being threatened. Somebody's going to die. There's no excuse for this. And it was such a beautifully impassioned, full of rage, but controlled rage, justifiable rage. And he said that each and every American that is paying attention should feel the same kind of outrage. And I, for one, feel it. Well, he called out the president and the two senators from Georgia. He called them both out on the carpet. And the two senators, to their credit, said, you know, violence under any circumstance is not to be tolerated. That was a very short statement, of course, but nothing more than that. So all right, well, thank you for that quote, Cynthia, because that was a very poignant point on this whole thing, is that these are death threats. And they are being, I think, not only tolerated by the president of the United States, but instigated through his proxies. So it's, you know, this is, well, once again, this is deplorable. So thank you, Cynthia. Winston, going to you on the same topic, do you have any thoughts on how low we go in this 30 days that we've been in this election dispute and where Donald Trump is in Georgia and the allegations? Again, Georgia's election process is flawed and it's going to be rigged. What would motivate a Republican to want to churn out and vote? What would motivate a Republican to want to churn out and vote? I'm not sure, because the candidates that they would be voting for have been locked steps supporting Donald Trump. And throughout all of this horror of trying to dismantle our nation and its fundamental democracy, this is not a difference of opinions. This is whether the nation survives to have a nation, to have elections in the future. And for them to think they wouldn't be on the chopping block next is folly. But so I don't know. I didn't ask the question as clearly as I should have. Here's the point. If Donald Trump is undermining the credibility of the Georgia election and saying no matter what, it's fraud and it's rigged, wouldn't I just want to stay home and not waste my time and energy and not churn out the vote? It's interesting, because if you're a QAnon person, then is this part of the whole plot or not? I think actually Donald Trump continuing on with this tirade and all the stupid lawsuits and trying to undermine everything and telling people, oh, it's fake. These Dominion machines have a paper trail from what I understand, like everybody that votes. There's this paper that comes out. They audit these things. You had the attorney general coming out. I mean, his own hints been saying these were free and fair elections. Every single state has come out with the same thing. Judges, conservative judges have thrown out everything. So I think you can go back and say maybe this is Donald Trump's way of trying to give a little bit back to America for all the destruction he's caused, because if he continues along with this vein and tells people to stay home, we might end up with a Democrat 50-50 Senate with the Republicans with Kamala Harris making the siding vote. So I don't know. Maybe it's his own way of getting back at his party. I think this is a window to Donald Trump's psychopathy. And that is if you're loyal to him, know it's a one-way street, because he's not going to be loyal in return. He's thrown very loyal Republican Trump Republicans under the bus. He's taken task to the Georgia governor, the Secretary of State, Arizona governor recently. He's thrown that person under the bus. And loyalty is only a one-way street with Donald Trump. And this is how he pays you back. He basically implies that you're part of the conspiracy as well, along with the liberal Democrats. What a nice way to treat your fellow brethren. It's really Stalinist, isn't it, or Lenin? It goes back to the different of all the people who know where the bodies are and the place it would. Bill Barr is now suddenly part of the conspiracy along with the Department of Justice and the FBI. It's so insane. One wonders how many days he actually has left in this administration as well. But if there's a silver lining in all of this, it will be that we get 50 Democrats in the Senate. But as I stop and I think about it, and you see how he's attacking these Republicans, these people that say, I voted for him, Georgia Secretary of State says, I voted for him. And now he's throwing me under the bus, an article in USA Today. You have people that absolutely have supported him for whatever reason. And there was a great article in, I think, was the Times where the normal columnist gave it to her brother, who is a Trump look-in, and said, this is why I support Donald Trump. Did you all happen to see that? It was in Sunday's advertiser, Star Advertiser, here in Honolulu. And she's more endowed. And she gave it to her brother to write. And it's quite interesting, because they gloss over everything that we might see and say, hello, did you not see this? What they are seeing is quite different than what we imagine. So I think it's good to give it to Gander. And I don't know if he would have given her the column. But Tim, I think I don't share Jay's positivity that the noise will go down once he's out of office. It may, a little bit, but as he starts his own network or whatever it is, and he's exactly raising money for his legal defense fund, it might. But what concerns me is what's going to pop up in its place. And all the, you know, you cut up the one head and then eight more pop out the hydro or whatever. That's what we're going to have is a lot of really bad players coming on and learning from this. So we've got a lot of fixing to do once. The only thing missing, I think, is after Donald Trump gives a speech, the only thing missing is the person who stops clapping first is sent off and never to be seen again. That's the only thing missing that it runs from the Stalinist, Leninist days of old Russia. So, all right, well, thank you, Winston, appreciate it. Hey, Jay, got a question for you. The pardons, the pardons that have been mentioned that are proactive pardons to the kids, you know, and Jared and Rudolph Giuliani, that's highly unusual. And you don't normally see something like that. Before a pardon is granted, don't you have to specifically know what crimes have been committed before the pardon can be issued? You would think. You would think, but there is some precedent for the preemptive pardon abroad. A very interesting discussion on MSNBC on that issue last night, because arguably, you have to identify in the pardon document what you're pardoning the person for. And if you do that, you're excluding other things. So once you're forced to identify crime A and you don't mention crime B, then the logic, it seems to me this is right, is that you're exposed. The person being pardoned is then exposed to a prosecution on crime B. So the devil is in the detail. When Trump starts issuing all these pardons, we're going to see that kind of drafting problem. The other thing is in the Constitution, it says grant. And there's a whole discussion going on about whether you can grant yourself something. And in the law and the practice, for 500 years of a stare decisis, the word grant means from me to you, from one person A to person B, not from person A back to person A. Grant, by self, went out a long time ago. So there's a fair chance that some court is going to say, no, no, you can't do that. What's most remarkable, there's a lot to discuss on the issue of pardons, I grant you that. Sorry to use that term. What's most remarkable is that in the past, I don't think there's ever been a case where a president has granted a pardon, okay? And then the prosecution, wherever it is in the federal system, decides he's gonna prosecute or she is gonna prosecute the guy anyway. Then the defendant will say, wait a minute, I was pardoned, don't you understand? And the prosecution is gonna say that pardon wasn't valid. I think we're gonna see that. I think we're gonna see these pardons litigated going forward either on the basis of what the pardon covered or didn't cover or on the grant, you know, the grant-language. I see it an easier path for him to pardon proactively, pardon people, but how does Donald Trump get a pardon? Wouldn't he have to resign from office and have Mike Pence as then acting president to pardon him? How can you- Yeah, surely, people have talked about that for a while. And, you know, that would pretty much work although they'd have the drafting problem. But, you know, what he might also do is, as I said before, he would grant himself a pardon. So it's one of those two logical possibilities where Trump could get pardoned. And I suggest to you that he will do one of those two things. He will not leave office without a pardon. It's too easy for him to give. The one fly in the ointment here, and we talked about it a minute ago, is this impending scandal, this impending explosion of pay for play, of pay for pardons. You know, we all know, if anybody doesn't know it, raise your hand, that Trump has been taking money for pardons. There's some of them are so fishy. I mean, you know, it's the fishy test. Some of them are so fishy, you have to conclude that there was money passing hands in the way of campaign contributions. Who knows how? And unfortunately, well, the way it works is that ordinarily there's a pardons council in the White House who evaluates pardons and makes sure they're clean and they're defensible and so forth. And that's been the case for a long time, except in this presidency. He just does it off the cuff. There is no pardons council. There's no evaluation, no examination. And, you know, they're not clean. And I suggest that between now and inauguration day, that is going to surface. Or if not by inauguration day, then after inauguration. That reacted order by the judge that was made public yesterday, it's gonna get made public in general. And we're gonna find a lot more about pay for play. Let me ask you the question I think I asked Stephanie. And that is, do you think there was a correlation of Donald Trump implying that Bill Barr and the Department of Justice was part of this cabal to deny him this election because they won't substantiate allegations of fraud and the unsealing of these documents from the DOJ. I mean, it happened the next day. If you're asking me whether I trust Bill Barr, I do not. If you're asking me whether I think there's a connection and that there's a scheme, a nefarious connection between those two events, I do believe there's a connection. I think it's Trump moving on with his reality show. And the most important thing for him now is really not, and in order to show there was fraud because that's a loser, but to protect himself, somehow protect himself and Barr could be a key to that. I believe Barr is still loyal. Barr could be a key to protecting him on the pay to play scandal. Yeah. Well, for the Department of Justice unsealed documents, these aren't just broad things they've looked at. These are specific, I would think specific evidence, evidence in emails, evidence in all sorts of things that are not generic in nature, but specific. Well, when it's all revealed, I think we're gonna find out stuff about Trump that will enhance my theory. That is when he's involved in more scandal, more of the fringe of his base will slough off. And I think there's a lot more scandal to come. Okay, thank you, Jay. Unfortunately, we're running out of time. Stephanie, oh, I'm really sorry. This 29 minutes went really quick today. What's your prediction as far as it comes to these, this issue of pardons, that there may be a suspicion of pardon for pay? How do you think that's gonna resolve out? Well, I think people get tired of this and it's kind of like just get him out. There's Fort Knox, go take it, get out, get out so we can get on with this. I think under the egregious category to make it even sadder, it's already so egregious and explicably, but it's the saddest. Now, he's going after all the people on death row. So there's a bunch of people lined up. The next one scheduled to be executed, including one woman who all of them have the rights. They haven't gone through all of their appeals, but he's revved it up. We're gonna get all these executions done and regardless of the process, it's gonna work out. Thank you very much, Stephanie. Very hard. Cynthia, you get, not the last word, but second to last word, where do we go here in the next week with all these recent allegations, be it pay for play or the impending scandal about whether Donald Trump will pardon himself or where do you weigh in on this? Well, I'll tell you, I had a long, like four hour group conversation this morning with a lot of women that I used to work with in Alabama. Now these are successful business women, smart college degrees, white, okay? But this is the demographic that I was talking to. Good friends, people I've known for a long time. People I have respected and admired for a long time. As they're talking about, and they somehow decided to loop me into the group, they thought they could convince me, I don't know. I spent four hours trying to convince them. But the biggest thing that shocked me was this one little gal, just sweet and quiet as can be. And her answer to all of this is it's gonna take a revolution to set things right. And they all chimed in, yep, yes, I think you're right. All right, well, she in that group is part of the 40%, unfortunately. You could call them the proud boys, you could call them whatever you want, but that's how they seem to me. Well, in these words, they're just regular ladies, that's what I mean, but they're like two people that- Yeah, well, they don't sound regular to me and they don't sound very patriotic. So I'll leave it at that. I'm gonna go to Winston for the last word. Last thing and say I pray that these people will have their eyes opened because that's the very thing that will destroy our country is that revolution that's still out there being propagated and encouraged. Okay. Yeah, and watch out for inauguration day. Like Stephanie said, there could be violence out there. Yeah, no, that's what's very possible. It's very possible. And keep up. Just to mess things up. All right, hey, Winston, we're out of time, but I wanted to just get your opinion about the potential pay for play for pardons and get your thoughts. We're out of time, but I like to hear from you. You know what, there's a great article, short one in USA Today, what to do about the pardon Trump will grant himself. And it's written from a perspective of the guardrails of democracy project and informal think tank devoted to developing proposals to shore up democratic institutions damaged during the Trump presidency. They're proposing a new amendment that just says never in the future. So at this point, the damage is done. It's still going on. It will continue going on. We still have an epidemic after pandemic after he leaves, but right now, you do that as you can. I love the idea of bringing up these lawyers who have these asperious lawsuits and disbarring them for their behavior, for death threats, for just filing these lawsuits. And Washington Post had an article about that, about 25 former DC bar presidents calling for that. But I feel like right now we got 50 days left. But you know what Jay mentioned last week, Jay had mentioned last week that those judges would have to call all those lawsuits frivolous and they didn't do that. Well, the lawyers themselves take an oath that say you're not going to undermine democracy or did something to that effect. And they know that this is wrong. But you know what, I feel like we're at 50 days now out. And this is not 50 days until Christmas. What am I going to buy? This is 50 days of being dropped off in the middle of the Sahara Desert and telling you to walk due north. Maybe you'll get to Tunis and maybe there'll be food and water once you get there. That's kind of how I'm feeling right now. But I'm hopeful still we're in the winter so the rains may come in, it might be a little bit. Well, you know, Winston, you've taken a real sharp detour from weeks previous. I knew you'd catch up with us sooner or later. So we're out of time. Winston, I want to thank you very much for your participation. I'd like to thank Jay Fidel, Stephanie Dalton, Cynthia Leeson-Claire. Thank you for joining us for Rediscovering America. I'm Tim Appichell, your host and we'll see you next week, Wednesday at 11 o'clock. Aloha everyone.