 Greetings, friends, and welcome to this conversation in the Leadership Studio. We're coming to you from the United Church Center in Hartford, Connecticut. My name is Eric Anderson, and I am the Associate Conference Minister for Proclamation, Identity, and Communication for the Connecticut Conference of the United Church of Christ. Joining me here in the Leadership Studio, we have Kerry Nyswander, who is the senior pastor at Immanuel Congregational Church UCC here in Hartford, and her colleague at Faith Congregational Church UCC in Hartford, the senior pastor, the Reverend Stephen Camp. Steve, Kerry, welcome to the Leadership Studio. Good morning, thanks. Well, you are just coming back from having spent a few days visiting in Flint, Michigan, with the people there, with some of our colleagues in ministry there. Just tell me, what did you hope to learn, or what did you hope to offer to the folks there on your visit to Flint? Well, for me, it was a personal thing. Personal in the sense that there were brothers and sisters in Flint that we were seeing here in Connecticut in this region that were in a great deal of distress. It gave us a chance to see on the ground what really was going on and what really, how could we help? How could we be of service to the folks there? I would say, for me, I grew up in Michigan, and I actually preached a sermon at Woodside Church in Flint, and I have a heart for the state of Michigan, love the Michigan Conference. When I found out what was happening, the intersection of economic injustice, racial injustice, and environmental injustice spoke to me as something I wanted to learn more about in that particular location as far as how it affects the people of Flint, and then also to look at that as far as how it impacts us here and all over the country. This reality is a crisis in Flint, and I think we can learn so much from what's happening in Flint and step in advocacy in Flint, but also expand that learning to how we understand what's happening in our communities as well. So just give us the basic, what is happening in Flint? What is the crisis? Well, what happened was the Flint, the city of Flint decided to switch their water from the Detroit system to over time they were going to switch it even further beyond, but decided to switch it to get water from the Flint River. Now, as the water was coming in, it was extremely corrosive, and it didn't take long for General Motors and their plant to say, this water is too corrosive, it is bad for our machines, and we need to switch. And the plant actually switched back to the other water. However, the city of Flint continued to use that water. And they did it very quickly. The General Motors plant there, they recognized that there was a serious problem, but it appeared that the administration, the government did not heed the warning or see the problem or act on trying to make sure that the citizenry there was safe. Unfortunately, that for me signals that there was racism in the water. There was a sense that there was not caring about the folks who were there. I wonder whether it was because they were poor, because they were people of color, because they were marginalized, that their school system wasn't working well, that all of the problems of a city that was really nearing default financially. And it seems as though the government just walked away. And not only that, not only did they do nothing, repeatedly they said that the water was safe to the citizens of Flint, because they knew, they looked at the water, and they knew there was something wrong. And it wasn't just the lead, it was the corrosion as well. So we're talking a lot about lead, but the water is extremely corrosive. So even in bathing, people are getting rashes, their hair is falling out. And meanwhile, the whole time there's the message coming across, this water is safe for you. As a matter of fact, there was even a poster that was put out that was taken back very quickly, but that showed a bathtub with a little white baby in it and a little black baby in it. And it said something along the lines of, you know, this water is safe for your family. And it was taken back pretty quickly, because it was so wildly offensive to people, because soon they realized the water wasn't safe. If you think about it in these terms, they knew that if the government, that is, knew that if they spent $100 a day, they could have averted all of this. And that was by adding the anti-corrosives to the water at the... That's right. At the initial moments, they could have fixed the problem. But because of the austerity measures that were in place in the state of Michigan, with the election of their governor, they decided that that was an expense that they did not need to incur. And now they are looking at a problem between $700 and a billion or more. It's really tragic to see that happening and to see that poor folks, people of color, people who are living on the margins are treated this way in our nation today. And the emergency managers, which were in place before Governor Schneider came in, but Governor Schneider strengthened the power of emergency managers and the use of emergency managers in Michigan. And what ended up happening is every single city in Michigan that is majority people of color has been controlled by an emergency manager. And when we were meeting with one of the Detroit activists, what she said is there's been ten cities under emergency managers, nine of those had been majority people of color. So communities that have been... And in case people don't know what the emergency managers do, they essentially take away the democracy from the people. And one of the communities, the elected leaders, we were told had the power to open a meeting and close a meeting. That was it as far as what the elected officials could do and the emergency managers could take over everything. And so taking away power from people of color, eliminating their ability to have a democracy is part of what underlies this. And you have to look at it as a bigger system than... Well, as a bigger system that created the kind of public health crisis that we have in Flint. It is a public health crisis, but also a situation of crisis around racial injustice. So when you two got to Flint, we were following you on the Facebook RIMACT for Flint group. And thank you so much for all of the photographs that you shared and the reflections that you offered. That was really important for those of us who were back home following you. But one of the first things you did was you went to a town hall meeting in Flint. And could you tell us a little bit about what you experienced that night, what you were hearing? Well, very good. From my perspective, I guess it was a Rachel Maddow show. She had her national broadcast from Flint that evening. And Carrie and I were worried from our long travel, at least mine. And we got in the car and went to see whether we could be a part of that. I won't tell you how we got in, but we did. And it was just starting when we got there. But I will say to you that it was an electric moment. The people there, they are engaged. They are not asleep. They are awake. They know what is happening to them and why. And they came together to try to express to this nation that this is an American problem. It's not just a Flint problem. One of the things that stood out to me as a mother was being at this town hall meeting and seeing the kids there, seeing the families there and hearing other moms speak about not being able to bathe their children. And about the horror of wondering about the long-term effects of lead. One of the things, the doctor who uncovered this situation or who really made it public spoke about how after a month or two the evidence of lead disappears from your bloodstream. So you can't just get your kid tested and find out if they are lead exposed. You just watch your child and wonder if your child is going to have brain damage, long-term effects from lead exposure, and you don't know. And the idea of day after day just looking at your kid and wondering if you gave that child poison water without knowing it and not being able to find out. And then one of the things she spoke about is the importance. She was there at the town hall meeting speaking about what do we do now. Saying this to families. Saying this to moms and dads. And make sure they have access to good nutrition, fresh fruits and vegetables, the things you would normally do to early intervention, to good health care, to all of these things. And then people spoke and they said, wait, we don't have grocery stores. How do we get access to the fresh fruits and vegetables? And sort of the layers of injustice that are piling upon one another so that parents cannot take care of their children and themselves are their own bodies. It's just horrifying. Well, there was a lot of emphasis on the what kinds of solutions could come. And one of them was filters. The filters, if you had filters, that would alleviate the problem in the short term. And now we find out, this is days later, but we find out the filters don't work. And it's a roller coaster for many people there. It's up one day and way down the next. But I left Rachel Maddow, that taping at least, frustrated, angry, but also hopeful. Because hopeful in the sense that there were people, residents there who really do care about their families, their children, their, the elderly there, the undocumented who find it hard to come forward to even get the water that might be available to them. But hopeful in the sense that they, they're going to pull themselves together and move together to find a solution. It sounds to me as though one of the things that has to happen quickly is they need to start digging up these pipes. That is the solution, really. And it's an expensive solution, but money should not be the object here. People's safety and people's lives should be what really matters. Yeah, one of the things that stood out to me was just, I left it just feeling very, very angry. Angry about the situation of families there, angry about the warning signs that were ignored. And it was hard for me to put into words what I felt as far as Flint specifically goes. And later on in the visit, we met with a community activist who brought up the term sacrifice zone. And I looked up sacrifice zone and there are activists who've written about this. And it's an area that has been devastated through environmental devastation and economic devastation and left to be essentially a dangerous place to live, an unsafe place to live economically and ecologically. And so I left feeling that Flint had been written off as a sacrifice zone and the people of Flint weren't going to let that happen. But at the same time, the way that the state of Michigan, the government has taken away power from the people of Flint politically leaves us in a position where we need to do something in solidarity with the people of Flint to advocate for them to have that power back so that their city doesn't become a sacrifice zone. No disposable people shouldn't be. There should not be any disposable people. There shouldn't have. You know, I really have tried to be hopeful that the governor of Michigan would do the right thing. As yet, I've not seen it happen. And I think that he's given a lot of lip service to this problem, but we really do need some leadership on the ground there that is going to make a difference. Until we make this a priority moment in this nation, this problem continues. How long did it go before it hit the press, before it hit our realizations? Months. It was two years. It's two years of poison water for the residents, 100,000 residents of a majority people of color impoverished city. People started complaining about their water and bringing up the fact that it was dirty, the fact that people were getting sores on their skin, the fact that hair was falling out, it was over and over again, but they were ignored and they were repeatedly told that the water was safe. So, you know, the idea, you know, when you say there are no disposable people, the idea that this corrosive water was not good enough for the machines in an auto plant, but was good enough for human bodies, what do you say about the value you are placing on those human beings? You also told us some stories on Facebook about visiting a distribution site run by the Red Cross, and you said some things about what the volunteers were reporting from delivering those filters, which aren't as effective as we want them to be, the testing kits. What were the volunteers saying to you about their work? Kerry, that was an interesting moment because Kerry was in one side of the room and I was on the other side and we were having these conversations with young people and people who were volunteering there, and lots of volunteers have come from lots of places. AmeriCorps was one. I remember one in particular, one young woman who was, she found out I was a minister, she was an African American young woman, and she said, with tears in her eyes at times, when a young person would come in who had been exposed to the water and wanted to help their neighbors in any way they could, and it gave her hope, and she in fact transmitted that hope to me because it made her work even harder to try to be part of the solution rather than the problem. There were those kinds of stories. There was a Syrian woman, an immigrant, and after saying Asalaamu Alaikum to her, she smiled and she opened up and she started talking about this is my city now and I need to do what I can. It's those kinds of things that we would find and we'd run across sometime very randomly, but nonetheless it's part of the human spirit. I think it's what God intends for us that we really do want to bring our better selves to any problem that's before us. As I was talking with the volunteers, they were telling stories about individual households that they went to on deliveries because they're going house to house to bring these testing kits and filtration systems and bottled water. One of them talked about a 14-year-old boy who ended up coming in to volunteer at the station, and the only thing, you have to be 18 or older to do the deliveries, but at 14 you can put together the testing kits, which essentially is putting rubber bands around bottles, but he would come in to do that and he talked about how much he appreciated the water coming to his house and at one point he had to, he stayed home from school in order to make sure that they received the water and so they started to work with him on, okay how can we make sure even if no one's at your house that you're getting the water so you're not missing school? I mean just the layers of need, but he was so grateful then that he was coming in to volunteer and they had really enjoyed getting to know him. But they did also talk about having to train the volunteers who are doing the deliveries and also delivering the news about the water because there are still families who didn't know. Yeah, that horrified me. Yes, especially families that are Spanish speaking or Arabic speaking, many of those families did not get the information. Or elderly as well. Or elderly as well, that's right, yeah. So they said that's why it's so important we train our volunteers, they're not just bringing the water and the filters, they very well may be telling a person that their water is poisoned and that the water they have been drinking for so long is. And so it's just, it's horrifying to think that long into the crisis there are still families who just didn't even know. It's really tough to rep your mind around someone who has to say the water you are drinking is poison. And you're getting this water through the authority that is designed to protect you from poisonous water. It's really something to wrap one's mind around. Someone needs to go to jail. Yeah. I seem to remember that you were quoting some of the folks who were speaking or that you'd spoken with as describing this as a crime against humanity. Which is of course an international crime with significant consequences. And you know Eric, they also were asked, demanded that they pay their water bill through all of this. Yeah. It makes no sense. But it's true. So Steve, I'm going to deliver poison to you and you're going to pay for it. Drink it and pay for it. Drink it and pay for it. And there are no services after the admission that it is poisonous for you to fix or to help you with this concern. It is mind-boggling to get to that place. Now Steve Hughes also described a visit with a minister in Detroit named Reverend Bennett. And he was talking about the control of water. And you mentioned that a little bit earlier. How is this crisis in Flint tied to that notion of controlling fresh water when 20% of the world's fresh water is in the lakes surrounding Michigan? Well, what he did, at least for me, was to tie the issue of the water in Flint to a problem that has been created statewide. It is something that the water in Detroit, where he lived, there were many there who were having their water bills, and their water cut off because they may be a month behind in their payment or they may be a dollar or two behind and they were cut off. To the tune of like 3,000 homes a month in Detroit were being cut off. And his contention was that this was connected for the water in Detroit was the water that supposedly was due to be in Flint. And who's making money off of this water? Somebody is. And who is benefiting from the fact that the water in Detroit is being cut off, that the water in Flint is not usable because of the river? Where is the water going? Who's in control? As well as speaking to him about control of water in Detroit, shortly after that we also met with a water activist in Detroit who's been doing this work for years as well. And she confirmed exactly what he said. The water shutoffs in Detroit, the big massive water shutoffs, happened right at the same time as Flint switched their water from the Detroit system to the Flint River. So all of a sudden Flint, which is a big market, takes their water no longer from Detroit and starts taking it from the Flint River and then Detroit starts to shut off water in people's homes, 3,000 homes in a month. And they're doing this to people in communities, primarily communities of color. And at the same time, the emergency manager in Detroit is working with surrounding communities over control of the water. And so under the guise of the Detroit financial crisis, moving control of the water, privatizing control of the water and expanding control of the water to suburban white communities actually did happen. It was very confusing because it's so complicated and it may seem like some sort of conspiracy theory or something along those lines, but it seems very true. And then afterwards, I did some research and some reading. I followed up with it. And it is true that the water control in Detroit is being taken away from the city of Detroit, being taken away from the people of Detroit because the water is so valuable. And it's about economics and about taking away power and control from vulnerable populations. It came home to me when we were told the story of a woman that went to a protest rally. And to protest all of these water shutoffs. And it was a hot summer day and she was given a chair in the hot sun and given a bottle of water. She was asked, why don't you drink this bottle of water? We were at the noonday sun, it's beating down and you have to be thirsty. And she said, no, I'm just going to hold it for a while. And they left and came back later on sometime later and said, you really do need to drink this water we've given you, this bottle of water because this sun is really hot. And she said, no, I don't want to drink it because this is what I'm going to use to take a shower today. And that kind of story should not happen in America. So all the crisis around the public health crisis in Flint in Detroit, we're talking about huge populations without water. And one other thing she mentioned in context of that story is the fear of an outbreak of cholera. You know, I mean, diseases that you don't think about but when you don't have water and you don't have a way to stay clean that is a public health crisis too. And those things are both happening in Michigan and both happening in majority communities of color and in populations who are being disenfranchised under emergency managers. I'm very thankful that this is now a conversation across our country. And I do think that that we need to we need to make sure that it continues to be a conversation that we need the advocacy now to we need to be writing to our senators, we need to be writing to the governor, we need to our governor to encourage his colleague. We need to be writing to our president. Those in leadership that this problem is something that needs to be addressed now. And that kind of advocacy I think the church can all of us can have a role in a party. So say some more about the advocacy piece. What is it that we need the political leaders to be doing? What is it we need to tell them to do? They need to take the pipes, those corroded pipes out of the ground. It is going to cost a lot of money but the health concern will cost a whole lot more if we don't address it now. That is very practical. But we also need to make sure that these kinds of things don't happen again. And so if it calls for legislation I don't know that maybe what needs to happen. I think the bottom line for me is that we need to advocate that water is a right in this country. It is not a privilege to have. I think there is advocacy pieces around accountability too. I want to know that the leaders who did this are going to be accountable. I do think someone should go to jail at the very least. I believe Governor Schneider should resign. I believe this is a huge violation of human rights and that we need to hold people accountable for this. If we do that then we are sending the message to other political leaders that this cannot happen again. I am so afraid this isn't just one isolated incident the issue of environmental racism is so very real and the number of crises in the environment that affect communities of color that affect poor populations is enormous. I want to see people held accountable so that the next time somebody considers valuing money over human lives they know that they can be held accountable. Folks in our churches around southern New England Connecticut Massages of Trent Island desperately want to have some way of helping the folks of Flint through this crisis and definitely the advocacy is going to be a long term part of being in solidarity with them. What are some things that the folks in Flint can use from us in the short term? It's a great congregation church where I serve we are gathering water my sanctuary is getting pretty full of water I have to figure out how to get it to Flint and we did make some contacts of people who are on the ground and trying their very best to serve the population that's there but there is also the concern about landfills and all these plastic bottles and all of that so I do advocate that if dollars can be sent toward the United Church of Christ for I think we can have some assurance that those dollars will be spent well and spent wisely to be helpful going forward beyond that I do believe in the power of prayer and I think that we need to be a prayerful people as well as an outspoken people we need to prayer without works maybe I'm twisting that phrase a little bit but prayer without works is really not very much at all I do think sending money is vitally important as well we talked to some people who were there and who said listen we can get discounts if you send them money we can get discounts and we can buy what's needed here it's important to know that and we also hope that somebody pulled out and showed us this financial sheet showing exactly how the money is being spent and I felt a lot of confidence and I do believe we met with the Michigan conference minister and they have been working on this for years on water issues, on emergency manager issues, on advocacy issues and Woodside Church and Flint is installing I believe it's called a reverse osmosis system that really will create clean water and have a place where people can go and fill jugs of water so churches are doing creative work and so funding that creative work is really important so I want to thank Connecticut Rhode Island and Massachusetts for sending us to see this first hand has been an important experience for me personally I think what I would want people to know is that this crisis is real it is not manufactured by media it is real it is not being dealt with by governmental sources it's real the people are hurting the people are being attacked led in the water and I say racism in the water and until we are able to face into this problem to really make this problem our problem it is something we can say oh well that's a terrible thing that's happening to those people over there but those people over there are people right here it could happen anywhere and so I hope that people will help will do what they can to give prayerful work to this and make a difference the United Church of Christ has a history of doing the hard stuff and it's time for us to do it again for me I moved back from Zambia to the United States about a year ago I lived in Zambia for close to three years and while we were there we had to deal with water that wasn't clean we had to filter the water and deal with a lot of people who were suffering from waterborne disease we had times where there were water shortages and we didn't have access to any water but my family could go to the store and buy water the communities around us couldn't and so seeing the devastation that comes from waterborne disease from a lack of access to water was a horrifying thing to happen in Zambia but then to come here to move to the US and find out that it is happening in Michigan in the state where I was born and raised is just horrifying and I think like Steve said it's not something that happens we can say it's something that happens over there halfway around the world in Zambia okay, it's something that happens over there halfway across the country in Michigan no, absolutely not it is something we need to pay attention to right now the human right of access to safe clean water is so important and the advocacy we need to do to pay attention to those issues and to not allow people in power to put money over human lives and so I think remembering as a church that we have collective power together to raise our voice and say no this is absolutely not okay in the past we have used that collective power to create change so many times in our churches we're afraid to talk about politics we're afraid to talk about racism we're afraid to talk about these issues of injustice we have to do that we have to claim our collective power we need to raise our voices say this is real and do something we have succeeded in the past but we need the collective will and we need the belief that it is possible and it is and the courage and absolutely the courage to speak out even when even when some people don't want to hear it and ultimately the faith right that God is at work it does not all depend on us but we are working partners with God in creating God's kingdom here on earth amen well thank you thank you Steve thank you Carrie for going to Flint as our ambassadors for bringing back the stories but mostly for bringing back the conviction the commitment and the call to action I really hope that this is a word that will spread around these three southern New England conferences and that we can really make a difference working with partners out there in Flint and prevent this from ever happening anywhere again thank you thank you thank you for joining us for this conversation in the leadership studio and thanks to my guests the Reverend Stephen Camp and the Reverend Carrie Niswander we wish for you a day full of God's blessings and joy amen what Saturday March 12th all day Super Saturday I wonder what that's about ladies if you heard about Super Saturday why are you excited I'm really excited to meet some new friends and meet some new people I'm excited to hear Tracy Blackman speak I saw her speak last year and she just gave me chills are you excited about Super Saturday you bet I'm going to be leading a workshop for folks who are chaperones at the national youth event hi Emily did you hear that Tracy Blackman is coming she's amazing and the facility at Killingly High School is really nice you should definitely go so what do you like best about Super Saturday oh worship and the workshops hear a prophetic word from our speakers and I'm actually really excited about workshops so much is super about Super Saturday Super Speaker number one Tracy Blackman who is the new executive for justice witness ministries is going to be our keynoter I'm also excited about the location of Super Saturday first time Connecticut has hosted this event we're going to be at Killingly High School Saturday March 12 Killingly High School Tracy Blackman workshops meeting new people making new friends be there