 you're one of the co-founders and heads of feminists for liberty, which is trying to, you know, kind of grow the understanding of individualist feminism and whatnot. Do you, do you find that, do you find that that message is growing or is there also, I mean, I guess maybe a mirror is a split on the conservative right of people who seem, people who call themselves libertarian or are libertarian and seem increasingly hostile to feminism or to kind of, you know, increased autonomy for women and the choices that they make. Yeah, I don't know if it's, if it's growing or if it's just getting more vocal, but like, you know, as sort of, as you said, mirroring the split with the conservatism has been the big split within libertarianism about whether or not, you know, libertarians in their forward facing capacity should be tolerant of various lifestyles and, you know, sort of say like, yes, the beauty of libertarianism is that it allows people to live all these different ways, which is, which is what I think, you know, as much as, you know, I, you know, think that women's autonomy and everything is great, you know, I'm not going to tell people like, oh, you need to, you know, live your life, you need to have your relationships in this model, you need to have your family being raised in this model. Like I think that that's, you know, an important thing that everyone needs to figure out for themselves, but there definitely is this strain of libertarianism that's, that's getting louder, that at least on the internet, not, not that I really counter in real life, that, that very much believes like, no, actually, like we should take explicitly socially conservative positions, you know, we're not necessarily saying the state should, you know, mandate these, but we should definitely pick a side in the culture war and argue that really strenuously, which I think is, you know, that obviously libertarians are going to have lots of different positions at the culture war. And I'm not saying we should be quiet about them by any means, but I do think that it's, it's a bad idea for libertarianism as a whole to sort of make that central to our project to, to pick a side in the culture war, you know. And I think that's one of the things you'll find with just the feminist for liberty is that while we are stressing, you know, certain, certain positions, we are very much still holding the libertarian line of, you know, it takes all, you know, we want, we want women to be able to make their own choices. We want people of all jitters to be able to make their own choices. We don't want to force these decisions on anybody. You know, and this goes to a kind of question of libertarian paternalism, I suppose, where people like Cass Sunstein and Richard Thaler said, you know what, there's going to be incentives built into every kind of policy. Why not tip them in ways that make more sense or, you know, you know, that are, that are kind of better for society, recognizing that it's always hard to determine that. But should, should this state be encouraging or discouraging any kind of family formation, any kind of, you know, kind of personal livings, the situation? I mean, no, I don't, I don't think so. I don't think that's fair to prioritize, yeah, any particular lifestyle over another because, you know, those are matters of people's people's values and choices or sometimes they're not, you know, sometimes it just matters of circumstances and we shouldn't be penalizing people one way or the other because of the way that they're, this is they made or the way that their life turned out in that, in that capacity. I do think that she just, you know, kind of get at one of the things Scott mentioned about, you know, this is a, this should be a marketing campaign for conservatives, you know, this should, this is, this, because this is a matter of values and, and the things you were talking about with the 1950s too, you know, like, I read recently that the divorce rate is actually lower now than it has been in, I think, like five decades and, you know, I was saying that to someone in a social conservative recently and they were like, well, yeah, but that's because fewer people are getting married in general. So, like, you know, we're still in less than, I'm like, yeah, but, but again, like this is how we're looking at it, like, do we want people just to be getting married just because, or do we want people to be getting married that are more wanting to get married and able to be in happy marriages, the same thing with fertility. And I think we can argue that, you know, because we have more choice in these matters because we've loosened these cultural constraints around the idea that everyone has to get married and everyone has to have kids, the people who are doing it are a lot more stable, are a lot happier, are going to produce happier, you know, individuals and happier families and better well adjusted children. I think that it's, it's fascinating to think about on the right, there is a broad, you know, there's a broad discontentment with the choices that people are making because, yeah, no, they want, I want people to get married and have kids and be younger or whatever. On the left, that takes the form of, I just read a great essay called UG Capitalism, where there was a critique of left-wingers who just everything that they dislike about the current moment, they just say, oh, that's late capitalism, that's, and it ultimately, you know, we have these broad ideological camps that are just mad at the fact that a lot of people make life choices or have preferences that they don't agree with. And instead of, you know, for me, I mean, the only way out of that for sanity was to kind of be libertarian and be like, you know, you know, we live in an incredibly varied society and world and that's kind of great and we're bringing in more types of people and sanctioning people to live and to think and express whatever they believe. And that's all great and it means like you're going to, you know, you're going to encounter a lot of stuff that you wouldn't necessarily prefer, but it, you know, for the same reason that they can, you know, dye their hair, whatever color they want or live in a throttle or, or, you know, not get married. It means you have a little bit more space to live the way that you want. And overall, that's, that's pretty good. Yeah, this makes me think so of the, the Catholic integralists, you know, that want the state to enforce their, their version of the good life, sort of, it's somehow the thought never enters their heads like you guys are a tiny minority of the population, which you, how would you like to see the, the rest of the country impose, sort of have the state impose its values on you, which they probably would argue it does to some extent. But, but I think your point about libertarianism is absolutely well taken here. Yeah, sort of the bottom line in all of this fertility stuff is just that, you know, when what we've seen in countries with like hugely diverse cultures, political systems, you know, all around the world and just all these, any difference you can imagine, what we've seen is that when you give people the choice to have, you know, the technical ability to have less kids and the choice to have less kids, a large percentage of them are going to take it. People are still wanting to get married, people are still wanting to have kids, but people are wanting to have smaller families. That's part of the live stream conversation that I had with Scott Winship of the American Enterprise Institute and Elizabeth Nolan Brown of reason talking about whether or not the state should encourage people to have more babies. If you want to see the full conversation, go here. If you want to see another segment, go here.