 Okay, thank you everybody for coming here today, and thank you in particular to Darcy, who is Dr. Sidiya Kuntra, who you all know. She's trained just as a historian and curator, and I just learned, is also involved in the making of a black and white film on Japanese mysticism, so we'll watch this space. She will be back with her film one day, perhaps. Okay, she, a table page in history from the U University of Amsterdam, 2014. Her research focused on the concept of intangible heritage, and more specifically, on dynamics of heritage formation and performance practices of the Waigau and Puppet Theater in colonial and post-colonial Indonesia. She contributed to this, and I hope you have all seen that you all have, or you will be headed there tomorrow morning, first thing. Shao Puppet Theater from Indonesia, Malaysia, and Thailand, which is currently on show at the British Museum, and that would be her, you know, for the Indigenous heritage as well. She's curated many other things, I won't go through all of that. In 2013, she was called the Living Institute for the Study of Human Rights at Columbia, Indonesia. So this is the first of our proper seminars. We had the centenary event with the Center for Southeast Asian Studies last week, but this is the first of our proper seminars, so thank you for helping us get it off to a good start, and her talk today is entitled, As You See, Politics at Play, Indonesian Waigau Performance Practice, and Heritage Politics. So please join me in welcoming the practice to the audience. Thanks for this introduction, and thank you all for coming out this afternoon, and I've heard that some people are a little bit sleepy, so I try to make you not fall asleep. So yes, today I would like to talk to you about Indonesian Heritage Politics, in the case of Waiyang, and I wasn't actually sure who is or who isn't familiar with Waiyang, so who has ever seen a live Waiyang performance? Oh, so that's quite a few people. Okay, that's great. Okay, but for those of you who are not so familiar with Waiyang, I thought, okay, I'll just give you a very brief summary of what it is. So the word Waiyang can actually mean in Indonesian a performance or a puppet or theater, and it's basically a traditional theater that is mainly played on Java, Bali, and Lombok. It has already been around since the 9th century, and it is a kind of theater that tells stories with the support of a gamelan orchestra, so with the help of music, and the gamelan is an orchestra that consists of percussion instruments. And shows generally last for eight hours, from eight in the evening until four in the morning, and the central figure is the Dalam, and you can see him here in the middle of the picture sitting in front of the screen. He sits there for eight hours, cross-legged, and he manipulates the puppets. He also tells the story, and he sings the songs, and he also orchestrates, directs the orchestra sitting in front of him. So here you see a kind of a traditional setup of a Waiyang stage. You see also here the singers, and in front of that the gamelan orchestra. So in Indonesia, you can nowadays watch the performance from both sides of the screen, so you can either watch it from this side so that you can see the Dalang and the colorful puppets and the Sindan, so the singers and the orchestra, but you can also walk around the screen, and then you get to see the shadows of the intricately carved puppets. So today the most popular forms are actually the Waiyang kulit, which is played with the flat shadow puppets, and Waiyang galak, which is played with the three-dimensional rod puppets without a screen. So if we talk about heritage, in the case of Waiyang, a very important event happened in 2003 when Waiyang was proclaimed as a masterpiece of the oral and intangible heritage of humanity. So this was a big event that happened to Waiyang, and it happened within the framework of this program, called the Masterpieces Program, launched by UNESCO to kind of give the concept of intangible heritage a boost, and in the same year the Convention of Intangible Heritage was adopted by UNESCO. So the program, until the nation-states, member nation-states of the UN, could apply or could submit cultural expressions to be proclaimed a UNESCO masterpiece. So this happened biannually in 2001. The first masterpieces were proclaimed, and in 2003 was the second batch of masterpieces, including the Waiyang Puppet Theatre of Indonesia. So the criteria that were applied were set out in a very elaborate guideline consisting of 37 pages, but I condensed them into these points. So one of them was this cultural expression had to be of universal value. It had to be endangered. It had to have some important historical roots. It had to affirm an identity. It had to be of excellent quality, and it had to be unique. So that is what basically could qualify potentially as a masterpiece. So in the case of Indonesia, the nomination file was prepared by two organizations. One is Senawangi, which is the national Waiyang as secretariat for Waiyang, and the other one was Papadi, which is the National Dalang Association. So the Dalang is the Waiyang Puppet Theatre. So what is important to know about these organizations is that these were established in the late 1970s during Saharters' new order. They were actually founded by a military commander called Surono. At first they had another name, but later they turned into Senawangi in Papadi. And this commander was also responsible for the establishment of an ethical code for the Dalang. So this all happened during Saharters' regime, 32 years of Saharters' new order after the events of 1965. So I interpreted it in the sense that these organizations were trying to exercise greater control on Dalang and the Waiyang performance practice. So these organizations, the location, the offices are located also at Tama Mini Indonesia Inda, so which means beautiful Indonesia and beautiful Indonesia in miniature. So it's this kind of entertainment park which is a reflection, which should reflect the unity in adversity. So the slogan of Saharters' new order. So the idea was that every province, every region in Indonesia would get an area within the theme park where their regional dance was displayed, where they had a regional house, where they had a regional song, textiles, et cetera. So this was kind of a straight jacket which was applied to the theme park. In case, for example, a region didn't have a dance or textile, then it was invented. So the park is very much also an invention of tradition. It was really as a promotion of Saharters' cultural policy of unity and diversity. So these two organizations that have their roots in the 1970s in Saharters' new order are still located in this location. And also the boards of these organizations are still very much related to new order power structures. So that is something that I think is very particular about this nomination file. So these two organizations together worked on this nomination file and the nomination file kind of is basically a description of what Waiyang is. So if we look at the nomination file itself, only five forms of Waiyang are described. So basically, as you probably know, there are lots of varieties of Waiyang throughout Indonesia. Nobody actually knows how many, but maybe tens or hundreds of different forms of Waiyang. So the nomination file only describes these five forms. So that's Waiyang Bali, from Bali, Waiyang Kulipurwa, from Java, Waiyang Golek, from West Java, and as examples for Waiyang forms that are threatened with distinction, Waiyang Banjar from South Kalimantan was described as well as Waiyang Palembang from South Sulawesi. So these forms were described in dire need of preservation to kind of fit the criteria of UNESCO that it had to be an endangered cultural form. But if we look at what the nomination file is actually about, then we see something completely different. So there's this forward that was written by Senawangi and I wanted to read with you, go with you through some of the quotes in the forward because I think it's very revealing of the actual purpose of the nomination file. So the first quote is, the vision of Senawangi is a desire to make Waiyang one of the pillars of national culture, end of quote. And then another quote, Waiyang maybe advanced further to become a cultural asset of the world, end of quote. Another quote, the great attention which has been directed to Waiyang by the government of Indonesia and UNESCO is extremely useful and valuable, end of quote. And then the last quote, Waiyang will appear and be recognized as a cultural masterpiece of the world. This appreciation is a source of pride for the Indonesian people, end of quote. So actually there is this forward and some other letters as an introduction to the nomination file. So from these letters, from these forwards, it becomes actually clear that it's not so much it, the nomination file for Indonesia does not have that much to do with the preservation or the wish to preserve Waiyang as a cultural expression, but it's mainly used to kind of instill pride for the Indonesian people, but also to turn Waiyang into a national form of culture. And they use UNESCO as an international platform to achieve basically this domestic identity building. What Senawangi and Papati also do is they define, they try to define what Waiyang is. So in the 19, during Sarthesnu order, they already established an ethical code for the Dalang. And in the nomination file, they also claim that Waiyang should be, that Waiyang is, how Waiyang is defined. So they say philosophical values are the main content and power of Waiyang performance. And also Waiyang is not simply entertainment. And today I think there's not so much time to go really into the historical roots of this heritage discourse. But basically these elements, the emphasis on philosophical as well as mystical values goes back to colonial times when the Dutch colonial elite was interacting with the Japanese elite. And from that distilled this idea of Waiyang being philosophical and mystical and spiritual, et cetera, et cetera. Other elements such as the entertaining element were rendered more to the background and were regarded as of lesser importance. So this kind of discourse was already established in the 1930s during the colonial times and has been incorporated and reauthorized within UNESCO's understanding and definition of Waiyang. So for me, during my research, one of the questions that arose from all of this was how do contemporary Dalang actually deal with all of this? Because then you have on the one side all these people who try to make a Waiyang policies and they try to decide what Waiyang should be or what it is or whatever. But how do actual Waiyang practitioners deal with this and how do they shape and create their Waiyang practice? So what I did is that I spent over a year doing fieldwork in Java. I was based in Jokia Karta. And I was following around three superstar Dalang. And with superstar Dalang, I mean Dalang who are of meaning to a wider, to actually a real mass audience. So they're not just known and meaningful to, for example, their local town, but they're meaningful throughout the whole Indonesian archipelago and in the cases of the three Dalang that I followed also abroad. So and then what you see then is that they apply lots of different strategies. So the strategy of this one, Kipurba Asmoro, and Ki is actually, it's not a name, it's a title, which means The Honorable. He was born in 1966 in Surakarta. And he's become, over the past 10 years, I would say he has become very popular and he is becoming increasingly popular today. And in 2012, he performed at the Asia Society in New York. And if you look at this, so this is Kipurba is accompanied often by a lady who acts as his manager. And she also often translates his performances directly from Japanese into English to make it more accessible to international audiences. So here you see one slide of her translation. So this is a part of the clown scene in which Garing is talking to Petruc and Garing says, listen to all the clapping. What's going on out here? What are they clapping about? And Petruc answers, the love Waiyoung, which has been acknowledged by UNESCO as a world masterpiece. So here you see very clearly that he uses, he uses the UNESCO masterpiece as a frame of reference for his work. And he also told me in, I've seen many of his performances, of course, also in Indonesia. And he often, almost in all of his performances, he mentions that Waiyoung has been proclaimed a masterpiece. And in the interviews and conversations that I've had with him, he also told me that it makes him feel, this proclamation makes him feel proud of Waiyoung and it also makes him feel, really want to kind of step up his game and live up to the expectations and really give his best for Waiyoung. So you see that in the case of Kippur-Waosmoro, he's really directly influenced by this proclamation. Ki Mantab Sudarsono is another Dalang. I think him and another Dalang, Ki Anum Surato, they are like the two most famous puppeteers of Indonesia. He's a bit older, he was born in 1948, but also from Surakarta, so Central Java. And he has become popular in the late 1980s and 1990s under influence and the emergence of mass media. So at that time there were lots of cassettes circulating and people were buying cassettes with wine recordings that lasted, so then you would have a set of eight cassettes that would have recorded the whole wine performance. He also performed a lot on TV, so he became very popular. In 1992, he was lucky enough to sign an exclusive contract with Oskadon and Oskadon is kind of a pharmaceutical company which sells its products all over Indonesia, so from Sumatra to Papua. So everybody, so then Ki Mantab became the face of Oskadon since 1992. So it's actually an exclusive contract with Oskadon, so that means that every two years they create a new advertisement, they create a new marketing campaign. So this is one of the posters, but it also involves print ads, radio ads, and a TV ad, which I would like to show you. So let's see how this goes. Yeah, so this ad is actually, is broadcasted more or less 10 times a day on 11 national channels throughout Indonesia, and then there are also 200 radio channels in which you can also hear Mantab sell Oskadon, so his name is known everywhere even in the places where there's not even Waiyang, so for example in this ad, you can recognize him as a Dalang, but like in previous commercials you would still see him on a stage setting, so they would film him, so they would film the commercial on an actual Waiyang stage, but in this commercial, it's a kind of kung fu kind of setting, so he's not even actually in the role of a Dalang any longer because his name has already become so famous and intertwined with Oskadon. So this commercial contract with Oskadon has made him really seriously very famous throughout Indonesia, and in that sense he kind of has become the standard for Waiyang, so when people think of Waiyang in Indonesia they think of Mantab, so he has become the standard for Waiyang and was then selected by Sina Wangi in Papadi to represent the Dalang community at the UNESCO ceremony in Paris in 2003, and Mantab as well refers often in his performances to the master proclamation of masterpieces and also he then mentions that he has been sent and selected by Sina Wangi to actually attend the ceremony of the proclamations. So in that sense, also Mantab really makes very direct references to and also makes use of this proclamation by UNESCO. Then of course, there are also Dalang who do it differently, and one of them is Kiantusus Mono. So Kiantusus Mono was born in the same year as the first Dalang that we saw as Kipurbo in 1966, but Kiantusus is from a different region, so he's from Tagal, which is at the north coast of Java. So a bit of a different culture than in Surakarta. So he's widely regarded as an innovator, extreme innovator, so his fans, they're really fond of him and call him Dalang Edang, the crazy Dalang or the Dalang cowboy, the cowboy Dalang, but of course he has lots of opponents too who call him the Dalang Khasar, the Ru Dalang, and also call him the destroyer of Waiyang because they think his innovations, with his innovations he really crosses many, many boundaries. So if we look at his innovations, is what he does, he innovates in actually many areas. So he, every year he commissions new musicals compositions for his shows. He innovates in a storyline. So he can start a story with a flashback. So you see someone get killed in the first scene and then the story unfolds from there instead of an opening court scene at the palace, et cetera. He also innovates in language. He not only uses old Japanese, Kavi, he also uses colloquial Japanese. He also uses Bahasa Indonesia or Arabic, whatever he seems fit for that particular moment he would use. He also innovates in genres. So he creates lots of new genres to which I will come back later. So he does all of that. And what is also typical for him is that since he is from Tagal, which is kind of on the border between West Java and Central Java, he plays both Wyonkulit, as you see here, and Wyonkulit. And in the case of Wyonkulit, by the way, here you see that he also plays with a half round screen. So instead of a rectangular screen. So he often also combines these forms in one show. So then he starts with, for example, Wyonkulit and then changes to Wyonkulit and then goes back to the screen again. And there are not many puppeteers who actually master both of these forms. As you can see here, his performances attract really thousands of spectators. Sometimes you go to the shows and when I first went to one of the shows I really had no clue what I was to expect. And I came there and there were so many people everywhere and it's like a huge gathering of these people and there are always all these food stalls around it. It's like a night market basically. So you go there, it's a night market and the performance is part of that. So it's always in the open air and when there are thousands of spectators like this, then they put up big screens throughout the field so that people from everywhere can follow the screen on these screens, just like in other pop concerts, et cetera. So what he also does is he's very innovative in his creation of puppets. So he actually draws his own puppets and then he has a team of puppet makers that actually make the puppets because he doesn't have time, but he always draws them himself, first on paper and then on the buffalo hide. And he creates new puppets like this. So, who recognized this one? Yeah, it's a teletubby. It's Samar as a teletubby. Still recognizable very much as Samar, but then as a teletubby. So he made all the clowns into a teletubby. Batman, very recognizable. Okay, so this is a little bit older, but he also incorporates political figures. So I don't know if you can still recognize him. George Bush, yes. Yes. Oh my gosh. George Bush and his enemy, Saddam Hussein. Oh, oh, sorry. Yes. And this is Wyon with a human face, which he calls Wyon Rai Wong. And I forgot to point that out earlier when we saw his photo, his portrait, but this is actually him. So as you've seen, like most of the Wyon puppets are very stylized, so they don't actually, well, there are representations of humans, but they're hardly recognizable as a human being. So he thought I want to make puppets with a human face because he also sometimes teaches at primary schools and then once he went to a school with his puppets and the kids didn't recognize the puppet, they thought, one of the kids asked him, like, who is this bird? And then he was like, what do you mean? This is not a bird, it's a person, it's a human being, it's a character. How do you not know that? But then he went home and then he thought, well, okay, if the kids think that it's a bird, then there's something going wrong here. So he thought, why don't I just make puppets that are recognizable as a human being? So he made a set of Wyon with human faces and he also made a puppet of himself as Beeman because he likes, Beeman very much is one of his favorite characters and he likes to identify with him. So as you can imagine, not everyone appreciates these kinds of innovations and what's more, he also innovates in performance style. So what you see here is lots of spectacle, lots of colored lights and well, we've already seen the puppet as a mirror image, but there's also something else within his performance style. He really, he has also this background in theater. So he incorporates also theatrical elements within the Wyon show. So I also would like to show you a very short clip of that, of what he does. Okay, so what you see here is that, so sometimes he has these puppets that are his mirror images and then he incorporates them in the story, but in this case, he incorporates himself in the story. So he also does that. And even just the standing up and fighting, standing up by itself is already considered very rude to many Wyon lovers, so to say. So why he, Kintu says that he makes these innovations to reach new audiences because he thinks that, okay, so Wyon is maybe not as popular as it used to be with Indonesians. So he thinks, I have to reach out and make people interested in Wyon again. So that's why he makes these new forms, these forms that are recognizable to kids, but also he really wants to, he really strives to make a show very interesting spectacles basically. He wants to make spectacular shows to entice the audiences and that's why he keeps innovating, to keep to come up with new things every time so that the audiences don't get bored. And also his ideas is that, once he turns these shows into something really spectacular, it makes it easier for the audiences to also kind of get access to the more philosophical and mystical elements of Wyon. So that is his reasoning behind those innovations. Another thing why Kintu also stands out is that he's very socially and politically engaged. So what he used to do in his performances is criticize the bupati, the region of his hometown, Tagal, openly because of corruption and all sorts of mismanagement within the region. So this was kind of a void between Kintu's and the local bupati so much so that at one point in 2008, Kintu's was imprisoned. On the accusation that he had instigated a rally at some local radio station. But because of lack of evidence, Kintu's had to be released after 75 days, so that's still quite a long time, three Japanese months. And he was just in time released to be present at the opening of an exhibition devoted especially to him at the Thrope Museum in Amsterdam. So this exhibition was called and titled Wyon Superstar, The Theatre World of Kintu Suzumono. So Kintu's had been released two days prior to the opening, so he was present at the opening and then later in the year he performed, he gave two shows at the Thrope Theatre. And this whole exhibition focused on Kintu's, on his innovations, on his puppet creations, et cetera. Then after this, he went back to Indonesia and he adopted this international recognition and also the name of the exhibition for his own PR and marketing purposes. So here you see his car with Wyon Superstar, Kintu Suzumono, and then his website underneath. Here again, this is just a big banner. They put these big banners always up before a show. He also organized, he also used this of course as a moment for press coverage. So he organized a press conference at his home. So this is at his home. So you see him here again with another puppet who is his mirror image and the posters of the exhibition and the theater. And this is the press interviewing him. And then after that, he designed another new genre, which became really important for him. And this is called Wyon Santhri. He created this in 2010. And this became instantly very popular because the shows are much shorter. They can last from about two hours until four or six hours whatever the sponsor asks for. So if the sponsor asks for a show of six hours, it's fine. If he asks for four or five, it's also fine. He will do, Kintu will cater to that to whatever the sponsor is asking for. So this genre of Wyon Santhri is not following one of the more traditional story cycles, but it's basically more rooted in local stories and daily life. And what he does is that he blends Islamic messages also into these stories. And as you can see, the singers are dressed up differently and there are Islamic chants, there are Islamic instruments being used in the orchestra and there are Islamic songs. And I wanted to also show you one of those, one of that as an example. This looks weird, but I think it should. So I think you get an idea. So actually this show I saw just last August, the 6th August in East Java, Pasuruan. And the singer, this singer is actually not a Wyon singer, but she's a Dandu singer. So from a completely different genre again, so what he does is he invites famous singers also outside the Wyon genre to perform within his shows. And what she's singing is a traditional Islamic song. And as you see, yeah, it really, the whole show is a kind of a big spectacle and with very long clownsies, there's actually hardly any real story within those shows. So there's this, there is the Islamic chants, there is Islamic songs, and then there are also very many chorus and crude and rude jokes throughout this Wyon santri. So here, what you see here is one of his most famous puppets. He's called Babuk, the drunken puppet. And you see him here, Babuk drinking from his bottle of whatever it is, beer or whatever. And he also turns these scenes into very long scenes of Babuk being drunk and then bothering other people and then at one point being in his own bottle and then forgetting that he has peed in his bottle and then drink from it again and et cetera. So all of this is combined in this Islamic genre of Wyon santri. And at first I thought, well, that's a bit peculiar, but actually nobody seemed to care. And the whole audience, as you see here, is always having a great time and they really, yeah, they really feel entertained and they take pictures and they make videos and they always also stay until the end. So with this Wyon santri, he has become very popular because the shows are so short, he was able to travel a lot with these shows because if you only perform two hours, you can actually do two shows in one night, in one evening, so he did that. So he went mostly around his hometown, Tagal, with Wyon santri and building a huge fan base and as I said, he also incorporated these Islamic passages. So he often also performed as a Dalandakwa, as a Islamic teacher. So here is what, here is, you see him here again as a Dalandakwa gathering these masses of people together. So he did that for over a year and he became really, really popular and then in 2012, 2013, he decided to run himself for Bupati of Tagal. With Wyon santri, he was campaigning and with his Dalang, Wyon dakwa, he was campaigning to become a Bupati in a very successful way because he actually became the Regent of Tagal in 2014 and so currently he's actually still a Bupati ruling the region of Tagal until 2019. So he still has three more years in his pocket, well, two and a half years. He actually still works as a Dalang as well. So during the week, he's a Bupati and he works on, he focuses on his governmental job and in the weekends, he still performs as a Dalang. So this was also during the same performances, performance in August that you just saw, the Dandu singer and what happened here is that before the show actually started, he gave a speech. So actually, it was kind of unclear whether he was here as a Dalang or as a Bupati and so these two roles merge in him and he was, it was also unclear whether the political message that he, the speech that he gave was his own message or that of the sponsor. So that was kind of unclear. But I think that is very interesting to see that now that he's Bupati, he has really created this platform also for himself as a politician. And then after the speech, he went back, went behind the screen and did his performance with all these jokes and fun and whatever and with lots of new puppets as you see here, very weird creation with a watermelon-shaped puppets. So he always has, whenever I see him, he has new puppets and new creations. So to conclude, I think that if we look at the politics at play in Waiyang, I think that if we go back to the international UNESCO Heritage Discourse, it really anchors Waiyang in a national discourse of identity politics. And this discourse is very much rooted in a new order, new order power structures and discourses of culture and Waiyang. UNESCO, as a standard setting organization with a global authority in the field of cultural heritage authorizes established guidelines for Waiyang performance tradition. Consequently, anyone who will read the nomination file is very likely to evaluate and judge Waiyang along those guidelines and to also judge the Waiyang performance practice by it. So the result is that approaches or perspectives that kind of fall outside the description of UNESCO's nomination file are judged as not correct or maybe not even Waiyang. So in that sense, the UNESCO proclamation functions as some sort of a controlling force that establishes guidelines and also rules for Waiyang. But what you see then in what happens in practice is that individual Dalang, they bend the rules, they adapt the rules, they always find ways to circumvent the rules. Of course, we've seen also Purbo who actually uses and complies to the rules that have been set. And Mantab has become representative of the rules and guidelines that have been set. But Kiandu really chooses a different approach to this. And he chooses a more subversive and challenging position towards dominant discourse by creating these new puppets, these new genres, et cetera. And if you look at audience reception of this, is that they really appreciate it. They really enjoy his new creations and his creativity and whatever he's doing. So that has made him very popular. But then Kiandu's then, I think it's interesting, is that his subversive Waiyang practice has enabled him to become actually political establishment. So in that sense, I think those politics at play at Waiyang are very dynamic and also very complex. And in this case, I think what you see is that the heritage discourse influences Waiyang performance practice very directly and vice versa because I think what you see is they mutually and simultaneously challenge but also reinforce each other. And that is all what I wanted to share with you today. So thank you for your attention. Thank you for fascinating talk. I'm sure there will be many questions. I think, actually, you talked about the criteria. So one of the things in the criteria is that it's endangered. So I was just wondering, what was on the threats and obviously you see these huge crowds and these performances, what was on the threats? Well, so for example, the two forms of Waiyang that were described in the nomination file, they're actually non-existent anymore. There is maybe one Dalang for Waiyang Banja, but that's it. So those kind of forms. So there are many forms that are actually dying out. There are many forms that already have died out, but as you can see in the case of Waiyang Kuliz and Waiyang Gwalek, I think it's still very popular because these Dalang, they perform two or three times a week each and then there are two other Dalang at the same level. So maybe you can see these Dalang as triple A status, like really the top-notch Dalang. So they all perform two or three times, maybe four times a week, throughout Indonesia, wherever. Then there's also this level of B Dalang and C Dalang who also perform, maybe not so often as these do, but it means that there's still like hundreds of performances going on everywhere. And if you go, yeah, so the shows that attract thousands of people are really big shows, but normal shows would still attract hundreds of people. So in that sense, I am really not so afraid that it would die out during our lifetime. I really don't see that happening in that sense. But of course, there are these obscure forms of Waiyang that will die out. I mean, if Kean Tuus would stop performing Waiyang Santhi, I'm not sure if somebody else would take over or would also be able to perform in that genre. So that is kind of what is happening as how I see it anyway. As an important part of the Indonesian heritage. Yeah. I have organizations to ensure it's conservation and that it's continued. Yeah, so actually part of the nomination file, oh, maybe I forgot to tell you that, but the nomination file consisted of the nomination file itself and then a 10 minute documentary. And then they also had to submit an action plan, a five year action plan on how to preserve it. So the idea of the intention of this program was to preserve and safeguard intentional heritage. So the emphasis more on the transfer of knowledge. So the action plan describes this plan to work more with Waiyang workshops because many of these very famous Dalang, they have like a workshop where they have puppet makers working there, but also people who would like to become a Dalang, they study there with them, et cetera, to also work. So the idea that was proposed to UNESCO was to work more with these kind of workshops. And then there are also these arts, Indonesian arts institutes, where the art of Dalang is being taught. So also to work more with them. But those workshops work very well because usually Waiyang is, yeah, if you want to become a Dalang, you would study with a real Dalang in his workshop and just maybe not in his workshop, you would just go to him and then work with him, maybe on a performance or whatever, you would just go to his house and hang out a lot with him and then practice with him the music, the manipulation of the puppets. But the Indonesian art institutions is a different kind of thing because that is actually, yeah, how do you say that? So the level after high school, so you would go there to study the art of Dalang. So that is actually more meant to train art critics. But you can also go there, if you want to become a Dalang, you can also go there. But if you start practicing Waiyang by the time that you're 18 or 19 or 20, then it's just less likely that you become a really good Dalang. So in that sense, the transfer of knowledge is there, but then in a very academic way. So there you can learn what the rules, what the guidelines are, et cetera. And with the Dalang himself, you can learn how it's actually done, basically. I don't know if this answers your question. I don't know if I can just make the practice. In terms of the classical first invasion of the practitioner, why is it a transnational problem? Is it really past here when it could become more meant for the transnational set of identity issues? Or is it the inherent regionalism that the UNESCO guidelines provides, is it? Do you see how they lead? I'm not sure if I actually understand your question. So with Waiyang being a transnational problem, is it, as I understand it, in Thailand, there's a similar thing with Waiyang being deployed politically. Is there any capacity in which Waiyang could be transnational deployed as a political medium? As a political medium? Okay, so if Waiyang could be used as a political medium transnationally, well... In terms of, I think... I think in the case of UNESCO, it already does that. I mean, Waiyang is being utilized by the Japanese majority within Indonesia to have it recognized by an international institution to become a national form of culture. The interesting thing, for example, in the case of these masterpieces, proclamations, and the concept of intentional heritage, is that, so Waiyang was the first Indonesian masterpiece, then it was Batik and then Kris. And then only after that it was Ang Klung, and then I think also Noken and some other forms. So, but the first three proclamations or recognized masterpieces were all Japanese. So, in my view, that is already a very political thing to do and to use Waiyang, Batik and Kris as a medium to gain political recognition on a domestic level for a Japanese majority within Indonesia. Isn't it also UNESCO that's using those national needs to make its own international platform? I mean, this is not a unique case of UNESCO exploiting a national agenda or a particular national agenda. Yeah, I agree with you, and I think it has to do just with the whole structure of the UN because that is how the UN is built. It's built on the member, the nation state membership. So they work with national governments. But if you look at the nomination file, then I think, well, sometimes I think, well, they could be a little bit more critical about in what way the file is written, for example. It's not, because if you look at the nomination file, the nomination files for the masterpieces are still, I don't know if you can say that, but they're classified, so they're still not open for research yet. They were open, I think, in 2020, so we still have to wait for a few more years. Because at the time that they were developing this masterpiece program, the concept of intangible heritage was not very well defined. So they were trying to kind of give the concept of intangible heritage an incentive by adopting this program. So that means that, probably, or that's my assumption, that these deliberations about what should be proclaimed as a masterpiece or not, was not so very well regulated. So I think, in that sense, I don't know how it is now. I don't know how they evaluate these nomination files now, but if I look at the while nomination file, then I find it's not an academic piece of writing in any way. It's just basically a repetition of assumptions and stereotypes about what Wang is and what it should be. So it's a very self-referential discourse, I feel, that is, in my view, not critically examined by UNESCO. So that is a little bit what I find. That is what UNESCO could do in a better way. Sorry? Is that unusual? I don't know what other nomination files look like, but this is what I really, yeah, what struck me when going through this nomination file for YAM, yes. They're intensely bureaucratic. Sorry? They're intensely bureaucratic. Yes, of course, yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry. You did share, this, if you look at it critically, that they're trying to manipulate the people by, of course, spreading their ideals and running through their values. Do you think, perhaps, UNESCO is kind of intervention in a way is to try to influence society, I think? From the other, no. Well, I don't think so, actually. Not, well, in the case of Wang, well, maybe yes and no. I mean, it depends on how you look at it, right? I mean, so the action plan is important. But sometimes I also feel that, so that is where UNESCO would have an influence in the execution of the action plans on how to preserve and safeguard Wang in Java. But if you look at the actual action plan, it doesn't really regulate so much. It only identifies these workshops with which they will work and Indonesian art institutions, but they don't, for example, they don't require a curriculum or something. So it's still kind of free. So in that sense, I think, not so much in that way. And it's, yeah, what I get from the nomination file is more that these organizations in the Wang Empire really try to push their own agenda by using this international recognition. Yes? How much or how little do, I guess, those sort of museums, like the colonial collection of museums in Europe, have a part to play in the nominations or that process? I mean, do they aid it at all, or do they actually hinder it, or is there a conversation between them? As far as I know, no museums were, well, no museums outside Indonesia were involved in the preparation of the nomination file and the proclamation. Of course, what you do see is that in the case of Kean IIs, and what also happens in the case of other Dalang, is that once they have performed elsewhere or in the case of Kean IIs, he had this exhibition in the Trope Museum in Amsterdam. So he really, they use that international recognition at home to uplift their own status and prestige. So that is very clear. So also in the nomination file, they also write, Wang has been researched by many international people, and it's worthwhile for many international researchers, et cetera, et cetera. So this international recognition is very, very important to also promote Waiyang at home, basically. But as far as I know, museums outside Indonesia did not in any way participate within the preparation of the nomination file or obstructed. Yes. So before the UNESCO nomination, so what was the social position of the Dalang? I mean, were it just totally excluded from politics and were it taken into? Yeah, no, I mean, because Waiyang is basically, how I see it, it's a communication tool. It's a medium. It's a way to tell stories. And you can tell all sorts of stories through Waiyang. So it happens to be Mahabharata and Amayana because those are the main story cycles. But within those, these story cycles have always been used as a metaphor for contemporary political situations. And what you see is that Waiyang has always been used for purposes like that. So you have the court tradition, but you also have the popular tradition. The court tradition, of course, has more guidelines, et cetera, the popular tradition emphasizes more the entertainment aspects. There was always, and Dalang are very free. So they are free to improvise and they're free to incorporate whatever story they feel is important to convey to an audience. And what you see, for example, after independence, after Indonesia became independent, is that there's a lot of experimentation going on with Waiyang during the 50s and the 60s. When Sukarno was the first president of Indonesia, he really tried to find ways for nationalizing Waiyang, experimenting with forms, experimenting with stories. And also, the PKK, for example, the Indonesian Communist Party, also experimented very much with Waiyang to see how they could use, if they could use Waiyang for their purposes and how they could incorporate their political messages, how they could spread their political messages through Waiyang. And also during, for example, the war for independence between 45 and 49 against the Dutch. There was also the genre of Waiyang Revolution was created, which traveled, which was a traveling form of Waiyang, about which we hardly know anything, but we only know that it was performed throughout Indonesia to support the troops and keep their energies and spirits high. So, you know, there has always been this political interplay with Waiyang, this incorporation of political messages. During so hard to, it became a little bit more rigid because he applied such a rigid cultural straight jacket. He also really openly used Waiyang to convey his political programs, et cetera. So, for example, his policy or his wish to decrease the number of children in Indonesia, so there was this program that two children would be enough, so that was a political message that was spread through Waiyang as well. So, there has always been this interaction and these interventions from the political side as well. So, in that sense, it's not new, but what I think is new is now that it's an international organization that does this and then it's also not critical about the historical process that is behind the kind of, yeah. So, on the level of the individual, about, I mean, actually having an effect other than advertising, I guess? Well, I mean, on the one hand, it does. I mean, it does affect them because they do now take UNESCO as a frame of reference. So, in that sense, I think it does have an effect. And that one have also, well, it depends on the person, right, on the individual, that one, to what extent they are politically engaged or not. Yeah. So, I don't know. It's not a yes or no or very black and white, I think. I don't know if this is an answer to your question. Sort of. I guess I am. I don't know. I guess I thought maybe it was some more concrete observation that we, you know, I mean, because there's so interesting that the answers. Yeah. Then, you know, he became America's sounds or anything like that. I mean, he could have been mayor even without this UNESCO. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He could have been mayor without UNESCO because he's the only one of these three who never makes a reference to the UNESCO proclamation. Oh, really? Yeah, he doesn't do that, yeah. Did he say why? No, no. He doesn't say why. Well, for him, well, for him it's not so important. He's like, yeah, okay. So, I know that when I started my research, he wasn't even aware of it. He didn't know that why he was proclaimed a masterpiece and for him it was not really relevant, I think. So, the other ones make much more use of it, but he kind of really positions himself outside the established kind of frame for why in a way. And he really does his own thing. And this is the result, basically. Yes. Question. If it comes under the umbrella of the UNESCO masterpiece, does that contain maybe something more, I mean, does that have to now stick to a more traditional form of narrative, or does that mean that people who kind of freestyle tell you dobbies and does that water down the kind of masterpiece? Well, I think it does. I mean, not directly. So UNESCO doesn't say you can only do this or this, but what you do notice, for example, now that UNESCO is really very much used as a frame of reference. So, whoever will read the nomination file, and imagine, I don't know, in 50 years or in 100 years, you would, the nomination file will be open and you would go through the nomination file and you would look at the description and then you see only five forms of why are being described and then you think, oh, there were only five forms of why on. So that is kind of how documentation of performance practices work, because it's just, you can never, I mean, describing something, you can never grasp everything. So you always make a selection. So making a selection just means that you leave out lots of other stuff. And so in that sense, I think it's standardizing and establishing guidelines, not maybe in a very direct way, not in a very explicit way, but in an implicit way, for sure it does. Yeah. Any other questions? You see documentation of the, the historical, the comments. Why, is that being done anyway? Not so much. There is this one publication that I know by Ruth McVeigh, and she really goes into how the PKE experimented with different forms of why on. And even those discussions of, could the PKE even use why on, because the PKE was a communist party, whereas actually the world of why on is very hierarchical, very feudalist and all sorts of, those of issues where played a role in the discussions of whether the PKE could use why on as a tool for political messages or not. But so there was, were all sort of things going on, but then 1965 already happened. So then the PKE was banished, and yeah, lots of Dalang were also murdered. So yeah, that is where that kind of experiment ended. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Just to go on from that, do you feel that the fact that so many Dalang and so much of the culture that the PKE was destroyed in 1965, so to say, has had an incremental effect on the artistic processes? Okay, so that is basically a topic of my next research. Ah. Yeah, so I feel that, so there's already really a vast body of literature on 1965-66, but they focus more on like the political sides and the violence and the structure of violence, et cetera, but there's not so much known about the cultural impacts of the violence. So that is really under-researched, I feel. Yeah. Trust me, can you? Yeah. Yeah, it is. Yes. Yes, I will. Thanks. Great, well, thank you very much.