 This is Mises Weekends with your host Jeff Dice. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back once again to Mises Weekends. We have a very special guest this weekend, Jake Lindsey, most recently with a free agent with the Buffalo Bills in the NFL looking for his next NFL gig. And unlike a lot of NFL players, an alumnus of Harvard University, but more importantly for our purposes, a dedicated Austrian economist and someone who's a big fan of both Mises and Rothbard. So that's how we came to know a little bit about Jake with that. Welcome, Jake. How are you doing? I'm doing well. Thanks for having me on. Well, I got to get a little background from you. You have to indulge me. So you're a young guy playing presumably high school football in Ohio, the Cincinnati area. Did you already have an interest in playing college ball and did you already have an interest in economics? My senior year, that's the first exposure to economics that we had. I really enjoyed the class. It wasn't a traditional economics class like you would get in college. He was a fun teacher. So that was how that started. And then I was looking to play football. After my junior year, I was getting recruited. I had some offers to play full rides, like the league schools that were looking at me. Wow. So that's how all that all got started, yeah. Were you thrilled when you ultimately ended up going to Harvard? Yeah, when they came knocking, it's tough from my background to turn down a school like Harvard. I mean, from very modest means. And when a school like that comes knocking and you have that type of opportunity to kind of change your whole trajectory in life. And thanks for your family like that. I had a great opportunity to take and I did that. And I'm here right now trying to play in the NFL and trying to make that work. But if it doesn't work out, I have a diploma from Harvard. Well, absolutely. Talk a little bit about playing at Harvard. Do you feel like or do Harvard players generally feel like it's difficult to get NFL attention in a smaller conference and that they have to be twice as good or be a dominant Ivy League player to get noticed by the NFL? Yeah, you definitely have to be a dominant Ivy League player. There have been guys in the past few years that have been kind of trailblazers for the rest of us. I think this preseason we had maybe 12 or 13 graduates that had been on NFL rosters on their 90 man rosters and training camps. So there's definitely a few guys out there. Some bigger names are Fitzpatrick. Cal Youscek was a few years older than me. He signed a big contract out in San Fran. So there's definitely guys that have made a name for Harvard and they're trying to continue that tradition of pumping guys out into the league. Well, so we're speaking to you from down here in SEC country in Auburn. But I really like your quote. You were interviewed by the Harvard Crimson. I really like your quote about being a mere mortal while playing college football. Sometimes in the SEC we feel like the concept of student athlete is a little strained. I mean, let's be honest. Do you feel like major college football is out of control to an extent that it's become too big, too much money, the TV contracts? Has it become unhealthy? Personally, I think it's getting very bloated. There's so much money involved and there's a lot of give and take between players and universities and there's now settlements for costs of attendance. Guys are getting not off the books getting paid to play but there's a lot of money involved to the point where it's corrupting a lot of things and these guys are coming out with very big egos and you're losing sight of the education where you've got to play football but you've got to prepare yourself if that doesn't work out as well. So you're kind of setting these guys up to have a tough time transitioning out of it. Well, and I don't want to get you in trouble with any of your potential future employers A lot of the major college programs are state universities, taxpayer funded. I understand that football brings in revenue but they are state funded and the NFL doesn't have to pay for its own farm system in effect. In other words, these young men are putting their bodies on the line. They're playing, I'm sure there's steroid use in major college football. They can be injured. A lot of them are not getting a particularly solid education whether that's their fault or not. But the kind of dirty little secret here is that the NFL owners have this free farm system. Yeah, I don't know how long the system will last the way it is. It seems like a lot of cracks in the foundation but as long as people keep going to games and keep paying forward, I think it's going to continue. But with state education and state funding, how the internet is affecting college or will affect college, you may see a major restructuring of how the system works. Well, so you're at Harvard. I can imagine it must have been super rigorous to deal with your studies. You've got to learn the defensive scheme or whatever at Harvard. You've got to go to class. You've got to take tests. Is a Harvard athlete's life very different from an SEC athlete's life? I can't speak for the SEC athlete. I can't speak for the Harvard athlete. It's probably not too much different than the normal athlete. You have tough weeks during midterms when papers are due. But in season, you're going to have to schedule around that. You know that going in, you have realistically 30, 35 hours to devote to football, which is 15 more than you're allowed to put in. And that's all voluntary. It's definitely difficult to deal with that. And more than anything else, it's a very competitive environment academically. So you're going up against very, very bright students in the classroom. And also you're going up against very competitive athletes on the field. Skill-wise, there's a wide range. Obviously, there's very good players that come out of the Ivy League. But regardless of the level of skill, you're going to get 110% out of really everyone every day. Just because of the nature of that student athlete. You've got highly competitive guys in Al's. Now, did you know that you wanted a major in econ? And how or when did you become exposed to people like Mises and Rothbard? I did go in. Because going in the Ivy League, I was like, you know what, engineering might be a tall task for me to take on football. And I was from a business background. I have a family, small business here that I help with in the off season and the summer times over over college. But I wanted to go into econ really from the get-go. And what triggered it all was the whole Occupy movement. So there was a big protest on campus. They had to shut down the yard. You know, you'd use your ID to get through there. So when all that was going on, it was Peter Schiff through Facebook. He went in to the Occupy Wall Street movement and was interviewing these people. So he really caught my attention there. And from then, I listened to his, I think at that time he had a, the daily radio show. So sometimes Tom Woods would fill in from there all kind of spiraled. He was involved with following Dr. Paul's presidential campaign in 2012, kind of 2011 and 2012. Started reading Louis Rockwell, Mises Daily. I get the emails. I still subscribe and read EPJ with Robert Wenzel. So all of these people that are kind of affiliated with the movement kind of became part of my daily life. Wow. So did you have fairly left wing professors? Did you have standard like Samuelson textbook for your, for your undergrad classes? So the first one was Mankyu. That's a big one. Yeah. He wrote, he writes the textbook and comes out with one every year, year and a half, a new one. So that was my first exposure to, I guess, mainstream economists. I had Larry Summers. He was a professor and one of the courses. Wow. Fine Stein, Martin Feldstein. Martin Feldstein, he taught with Summers in that class. So there are definitely Neocainsians. Yeah. Yeah. They're definitely not Austrian. I think the closest you would get was Jeffrey Myron, who I think is affiliated with the Cato Institute. He taught a class that was a libertarian approach to economics, but I was reading the syllabus and no Mises or Rothbard. So that was kind of disappointing. But that's still, I mean, what a great opportunity for you to have a class with Larry Summers, a treasury secretary. I mean, that's the kind of thing you can't do at University of Cincinnati, let's say. No, no. So that's fantastic. So you were kind of developing Austrian or libertarian ideology as you made your way through undergrad. Yeah, that's true. So going through that, it was kind of challenging for me to develop as an Austrian while being in that environment. So there was kind of a give a little take. You know, they would throw an idea at me. I would try to go through Mises.org and read an article on whatever subject we were talking about and understand the Austrian approach to that. So that was how I started developing. You know, I haven't dug in the human action or man economy in state yet, but I look forward to doing that. Well, in between getting through Harvard and playing football, those 900 page books are pretty tough. Yeah, yeah. But, you know, you should absolutely, you'll love human action. I'm sure you're a very bright young guy. So you'll love man economy in state. Have you had any chance to proselytize it all with any of your fellow players on the team, you know, now in the NFL or previously at Harvard? Yeah, I would kind of, freshman year, I was very vocal, but I don't think I was in the, you know, the Ann Cap Libertarian state I am now. So I was kind of known for popping off with a lot of very politically charged comments. But as we got older, I became to understand the philosophy a little bit better. And I had, I think, more mature conversations with my peers. And yeah, there were definitely plenty of links sent to Mises.org, Lou Rockwell, and actually the other day I was telling a fellow, Harvard Crimson, about this interview and I sent him the link. So definitely, definitely got the name out and that's what I've been working to do, especially with the interview I had with the Bills in that little player bio. And I, you know, made the National Rothbard to hopefully get the word out for liberty. Well, your typical NFL player is an independent contractor, may or may not have a long-term contract. It seems like a perfect audience. We've spoken with Glenn Jacobs in the past who has a character, the professional wrestler, Cain. And he talked about his ability to talk to people who are independent contractors who really see all of those taxes, for example, coming out of their paycheck, who really understand labor and capital and other things in a more direct way. So I bet some of those NFL guys are noticing that those estimated tax payments they're sending in are pretty big. Yeah, there had been some conversations in the last few months about guys and taxes and the market and things like that. And I definitely suspect there's a lot of sympathy towards, amongst them, towards the Austrian point of view. And they are potentially someone you could have on board as you educate them further. Well, so what's next for you? The NFL is a rough and tough place. It's a pretty merciless place. Is this what you want to do in life? Yeah, I'd like to take a few more months to let everything play out. It's obviously a long season. It's a very violent camp. So injuries occur, spots open up on practice squads, and you never know what will happen. But going forward, I'd like to continue with this for a few more months. It doesn't work out this year that I'm going to sit down with my family and with my agent and try to discuss options. And if it doesn't look like it's a good idea going forward, I might hang it up. But right now, I'm 100% in and I'm looking to get picked up again. And preferably, would linebacker be your preferred position? Yeah, I think I'm a linebacker. Yeah. Now, last question for you. What are some of the kinds of things you might like to do outside of football in terms of career? I want to get involved in finance, investing, potentially real estate. I follow the markets and things like that. So those are the first things I'd probably delve into and try to gain some experience in. Well, Jake Lindsey, we appreciate your time. We love that you're a member of the Mesa Institute. We'll be watching how things go for you in the NFL or otherwise. We wish you all the best and thanks very much. Keep up the good work. Have a great weekend.