 Well, good afternoon everyone before we begin today's event. I would like to thank the National Archives for hosting this event and those of you joining us today for this conversation. About a new biography on William still written by Andrew Deemer titled vigilance the life of William still bother the underground railroad. So, I wonder if we could start this off this conversation with Andrew with you telling us who was William still. Why you decided to write a biography on William still. And how did you go about writing this book. Thanks. So, I guess, to put it most succinctly William still is the most important figure in the most important portion of the underground railroad during the most important period of that institution's existence. So he is. He was a man who was born to two parents who had been enslaved both his parents have been enslaved in Maryland. His father was able to purchase his freedom, his mother ran away. So the two of them raised their family in rural New Jersey so William still was the youngest of 18 children so an enormous family. He was born free in the free state of New Jersey. As he as a man he moved to Philadelphia so he spent his adult life in Philadelphia, very quickly became involved in the the abolitionist movies more broadly but but more particularly the underground railroad so he became the chair of what was known as the vigilance this was a kind of institution that supported fugitive slaves protected fugitive slaves and made it more likely that they were going to succeed in running away and so he spends the 1850s really committed to this work he himself shelters hundreds of fugitive slaves. He worked involved him in all sorts of dramatic events throughout the 1850s. Eventually he would also become a wealthy man he would become a cold dealer philanthropist civil rights activists and ultimately offer he would become a storyteller of the underground railroad as well. What brought me to William still story was that I was working on an earlier book, and that earlier book was about it was a kind of more academic study about the struggle for black citizenship rights, and I kept coming on this guy William still, who I knew vaguely. I knew that he was involved in the underground railroad, but because I knew that the places he was showing up were really surprising to me in public he was making public speeches he was writing letters to the newspaper he was chairing committees in public. All of this stuff ran counter to what I thought I knew about the underground railroad which is that it had to be done in secret. The book really began with this story, or this question of, why is this, this man who's doing this illegal work the stuff that should be secret at doing so publicly. And that really was the germ of this book and as I dug into William still story, it became so compelling to me that I felt like this was a story that other people will be interested in not just was I of course I was interested in uncovering who this man was and why he was doing other things he was doing but I felt like this was something that people would be interested in. As you were writing a research in this book, did you face any challenges and researching this book about William still like where did you know where to go to learn about William stole his life and find these sources. Yeah, I would say there are a few different challenges so whenever you decide, I think, biography presents challenges and that when you're trying to tell the whole of the person's life. There are always going to be parts of that person's life that are easier to write about to research than other parts. So, for example, the 1850s, the period in which still is working on the underground railroad is a period of his life that's remarkably well documented and he himself kept these remarkable records of aiding fugitive slaves and historians know that these are some of the most important records we have of this work on the underground railroad and so his professional life in the 1850s has this remarkable documentation. But when you're writing about a person you want to, you don't just want to talk about the professional life and you don't just want to talk about this period that's well documented. You want to talk about who he was as a person, what his relationships were like, and those things were sometimes difficult to get at so we have lots of letters talking with professional associates, but very little of the kind of personal documentation that biographers need to understand, say, what is still his relationship with his wife with Titus still, who clearly was an important part of his work, but because still spent so much of his life in Philadelphia he wasn't traveling a great deal. We don't have letters between her because they were presumably having their conversations over the dinner table or wherever else husbands and wives have their conversations. And so getting at those personal relationships was challenging in certain ways. I went back to the Underground Railroad in the title of your book, you referred to the title of your book, you referred to William still as the father of the Underground Railroad. As you know in the book, the biography written, there are many individuals involved in the Underground Railroad in Philadelphia and the surrounding communities. And enslaved people have been escaping bondage in Philadelphia, well before still arrived in Philadelphia in 1844. So why is still considered the father of the Underground Railroad in this portion of Pennsylvania. So, so actually, you know when I, when I came up with this title for the book. One of the first people I asked to read this for me his first response even before he read it was, you got to change the title. This exact reason I may objected to the idea that still was the father, but I'll make note of something here so I'm very careful with the article here so I don't call him the father of the Underground Railroad I simply say father of the Underground Railroad. So I think, as I, as I was thinking about this. So first off, this isn't something I made up so in various points and in particular in obituaries still was identified as the father of the Underground Railroad. And so, as I was thinking about that assertion, I got to thinking about what it means to be a father, right. And I try I talk a little bit about this in the introduction. If we think about fathers simply as creators, then there's no way that you could see still as father right that there, it predated him. There were lots of people doing this work all over the United States and in Canada. You can't call him the father of the Underground Railroad but I think fathers are more than just creators. You know so I think when I talk about William still as father or a father of the Underground Railroad I'm thinking about him as someone who nurtures and protects and supports and I think in that regard still as much as anyone I would say more than anyone deserves to be identified as father he spends, you know, this professional period of his life the late 40s into the end of the 1850s, devoting the vast majority of his waking hours to this work of aiding fugitive slaves, doing all sorts of stuff and we can talk a little bit about the, the particulars of the work that he was doing and aiding fugitive slaves in this period. But it's, you know, it's this work that ends up aiding, you know, perhaps a thousand people in their flight to freedom, and still is really instrumental in making that work. He's not the only one and he would never claim to be the only one, but he's at the center of this vast network that is being constructed prior to his arrival but I think he's doing a great deal to kind of strengthen this network and expand this network of people who are doing this work of aiding fugitive slaves. So how did it still become involved in the Underground Railroad. So, you know, as I mentioned, his parents had both been enslaved. And in fact, his mother was was a fugitive from slavery so she was, she changed her name she had to conceal her identity and, and throughout the 1850s still never let it be known that her mother was still legally a fugitive from slavery, for obvious reasons. But I think it's clear that from a very early age, not only was still being told the stories about his parents background in slavery. Still had been. There were two older brothers who Sidney later charity still had left behind in bondage because she didn't think that she could bring them with her still still grew up knowing these stories about his own family who remained in bondage. He grew up understanding that that even though he was a free person that he had a responsibility to help those who were seeking freedom themselves. And we also know that from a very early age, his family was sheltering fugitive slaves. There was a particular story when he was growing up in southern New Jersey, where he along with an older brother in law, helped a man who was fleeing from slavery find safety. So this was something that he kind of grew up with it wasn't something that he had to just decide on his own as an adult. So when he comes to Philadelphia so he leaves behind South Jersey where he his family I basically brought him into this responsibility that he had of helping fugitive slaves. When he comes to Philadelphia, he joins this really you know and there's been a ton of scholarship on the black community of Philadelphia and I build on that in this book and I draw on it. He joins this community where aiding fugitive slaves is also a community responsibility so black churches black mutual aid associations, black families are sheltering fugitive slaves and so by joining this community he's sort of re immersing himself in this work of aiding fugitive slaves. But then, you know, after a couple of years of unsuccessful or sort of sporadically finding work and of course, coming to Philadelphia the whole point was to find work to improve himself to improve his economic circumstances. He eventually found this job at the Pennsylvania anti slavery society, working as a clerk, doing all sorts of work but very quickly it became clear that the most important work that still will be doing here would be working for the vigilance committee so. This is a, this is a kind of work that had been personal this is you know familial, but by the late 1840s it's become professional as well he's being paid. He's a professional abolitionist. He is being subsidized by the Pennsylvania anti slavery society in order to do this work and so that frees him up to devote, you know all this making hours to this to where we're prior previously, maybe it was something you could do on your spare time or you had to fit it into the other things that you were doing to keep your family afloat. Now this was still work and so that I think that makes him somewhat distinctive. One thing you know so when we think about, you know, African Americans who were professional abolitionists, most of them are speakers or writers who also do some of this work, still is is the rare black abolitionist who is primarily doing this work. You know so that gives us that first off you know makes him important in a way in this work in a way that many people who are doing it sporadically or informally have less direct responsibility for this work, but I think also gives us a window into the way the underground railroad worked. Yeah, back to those earlier life you mentioned one phrase that struck out to me in the book was when you mentioned that still sought to live in anti slavery life. It seemed as if it was more than just helping fugitive slaves escape. But what did, what did that entail for still another black abolitionist to live in anti slavery life. To me it seems more than just assisting escape slaves. Yeah, you know, I think we sometimes you know as historians we sometimes struggle with this terminology of abolitionist right because I think sometimes when people label someone like still an abolitionist. The sense is that okay well we're only talking about one part of his professional life. Because you know, people like still were actually we could more appropriately think about them as activists because they're involved in all sorts of activism. To me I think, when I think about Williams still all the other activism flows from his commitment to fighting the abolitionist cause but I think you're right to say that it's not just about aiding fugitive slaves and it's not even narrowly just about fighting against slavery. There's a sense in which black abolitionists like Williams still understood that the fight for black rights is also a part of the struggle against slavery and that you can't separate the two of these things it's not as if, you know, we've got one fight over here fighting for, you know, black citizenship and on the other hand we've got this fight against slavery, these two things to people like still are indistinguishable. When you think about, you know, living an anti slavery life. In part that is for Williams still taking the, the desire to better himself right and I think this is always a part of who still is he always has ambitions to material prosperity to getting a good job to providing for his family to getting himself and providing for the education of his children. So he has these kinds of material desires to improve himself. But he also understands that in doing so, he is fighting against this notion is widespread notion among white Americans at the time, even we should know white Americans who are opposed to slavery right many of them still believe that while African Americans can't be enslaved. They're not necessarily ready for freedom either that there's something wrong with them that there's something that makes them less than citizens. Bettering himself and providing for his family and living this morally upright disciplined life for Williams still is also a way of disproving those ideas, and in doing so, making the argument against slavery and making the argument that once they are emancipated they can they can and shouldn't indeed must be given their full rights as citizens. So for still all those things work together so over the course of his life as he becomes more prosperous as he becomes more educated and he's largely self educated. And he has these, these acts of self making as themselves abolitionist acts that are indistinguishable from the work he is doing in helping fugitives escape from slavery and fighting against the broader institution of slavery. Building off of that. I mentioned several prominent black abolitionists in the book like Frederick Douglass, Harriet Tubman, Mary and Chad Kerry, just to name a few can't go through all of them but several of them. Some of the names familiar, some of them not, but some of them familiar names. So, what was still his relationship like with these abolitionists. Yeah, so I think on a professional level so what's up maybe about the pressure level and then we can talk a little bit about personal connections. So on a professional level, still is a connector of all of these people so when we think about the underground railroad. So we might think about one end of the underground railroad being Harriet Tub, right, the person who does this remarkable work, even though she has herself escaped to freedom is willing to go back into Maryland to to help family members, escape bondage. So when I think about that as one end of the underground railroad, many of those fugitives from slavery who Harriet Tubman aids, end up coming through Philadelphia, coming through stills office in Philadelphia staying on their way further north. So he connects these people who are doing one end of the work of the underground railroad, with the other end which is for many of them, Canada, right so so many fugitives slave so some will, you know, once they they end up in Pennsylvania they stay. But many of them especially after 1850 feel like Pennsylvania is no longer safe and so they move on further north, New England, you know Massachusetts is somewhat more safe, but it to is a place where the fugitive slave law threatens their freedom. And so many of them make their way to Canada, and significant numbers of them passed through Frederick Douglass his hand so he becomes someone on the other end of the underground railroad helping them cross the border into Canada. So he too is connected to stills network so quite often still will take fugitives who have come, you know perhaps from the Eastern Shore of Maryland via Harriet Tubman's work, and send them on to New York where allies will then send them to Western New York where Douglass will help them across the bridge into Canada. So he's kind of connecting these two ends of the underground railroad. So his personal relationship with these two abolitionists is, is a little bit muddier. So even though he has his professional connection. It's unclear that he, his relationship with Harriet Tubman is unclear. There isn't a lot of evidence that they spend a great deal of time together. It's hard to know with Douglas there's a little bit of a professional jealousy I think. And I think Douglas on a certain level. I think he's on another level right is his fame and and renowned is on another level and I think you know there's there might be an extent to which still begrudges him that eventually Douglas is going to be a little bit perturbed when still doesn't mention him in his published work on the underground railroad so we can see these two men with with egos of their own, maybe having some personal issues. He also had a really good working relationship so so, you know, as both of those men continued their fight for black rights in the in the postbellum period, they work together they appeared on stage together still invited Douglas to Philadelphia to speak and hosted him. So they have, you know, I think maybe professional frictions but also I think a decent working relationship. And she carry she was a close close friend of William still so he was in touch with her, he actually wrote letters that she published in her newspaper. And chided him and other black abolitionists who continued to remain in the United States despite all the evidence that the United States was not welcoming was not a home for African Americans the fugitive slave law dread Scott decision etc. But on a personal level that is the, you know, the abolitionist figure who he maintained not just his professional correspondence with but a genuine personal friendship with her. I could just build off of your comments what I really liked about the book and meeting this biography of William still is it really captures the tensions and debates that still is having with other black activists and the white or black community. One important thread that I found throughout the book is that there were times when there were tensions between William still and other prominent African American leaders as you mentioned like Frederick Douglass, but also regular folks within the African American community. So, people like, I mean these are very obscure people who wouldn't expect to find a history book like I hope I'm pronouncing his name right but democ Carleton, Ellen wells in the Warner case, like these tensions with everyday black folks that spills into something larger so could you speak a little bit more about some of these contentious issues and cases that William still finds himself involved in especially like those three examples. Yeah, so let me just talk more, first I'll talk broadly about these tensions and then talk about these particular wells in the Charlie case. So on a certain level we shouldn't be surprised to know that there were tensions within the abolitionist movement, and that there were tensions within black or between black abolitionists. There are the stakes here are very hot right, the stakes of this fight against slavery the struggle to aid fugitive slaves to fight against the institution of slavery couldn't be higher. And so the fact that people who have disagreements about what is the best way to go about these things, and that those differences led to heated arguments and grudges should be sort of obvious to us. We see that right we see schisms within the abolitionist movement. Okay, and I've argued in this book and elsewhere that often for black abolitionists, the need to come together to aid fugitive slaves often overrode some of those differences so people who might have ideological differences of various sorts would often make those differences aside in order to aid fugitive slaves because that was seen as the most important thing. But nevertheless, I mean there are real differences in grudges and heated words expressed in private and in public you know you read newspapers of this time and they're airing out their dirty law laundry and public. Pretty much I mean still is very much a part of that. I'm in terms of these, these two particular figures who I think you rightly identify as obscure wells and Ellen wells and dinner charlom. This, I think points to an important part of the skills work that I talked about in the book and that is that he is dealing with scarce resources in this work of aiding fugitive slaves. So, all the work that he's doing to help fugitive slaves. You know, giving them shelter for the night is one thing right that that's just he's opening his home or other people are opening their homes, but the underground railroad is also providing food. It's providing medical care. It's providing clothes new clothes in some circumstances because you're going to be moving on via train to New York. You need to not look like a fugitive slave you need to look like someone who would be riding a railroad or a train to New York. The train tickets in York itself costs money right. All of this stuff has to be paid for and still is constantly raising money to pay for this work. And that's, you know, not that easy either so he's holding public meetings. Some, some abolitionists are traveling across the Atlantic and raising money among British abolitionists. There's never enough right there there's always more demand for this money and so still is placed in this really what he sees as a difficult position where people are asking him to spend this money, but he's trying to do so prudently. Now, the other thing we also know is that this is a period of great economic discrimination against African Americans where free black people across the north are often denied the jobs that are open to white workers that are pushed into the lowest wage sorts of work across the north. And so there's great incentive, you know for some to kind of reach out to this philanthropic network that still has tapped into to, to, you know, basically tell a story that I need this money I'm a fugitive slave. And he doesn't trust everyone so one of the things that he's doing as people come through his office is evaluating their stories. So he's trying to figure out if this person is really who he or she says he is. And in the instance of these two folks, he determines that they're not telling the truth that these are basically con artists who are trying to exploit the, the benevolence of people who are donating to stills network, and not only does still eventually refuse funds to these people, but he discourages other people from aiding them as well. And this. So this obviously angers these two people in particular but also really alienates lots of people because lots of people say who would otherwise be friendly to William still think that he's going too far here that he's being too, you know, careful, you know, he's going overboard and not spreading this money out. And he tends to create some resentment within the movement among people who, you know, feel like he's acting inappropriately here and ultimately well Susan so he had written a letter to allies in Boston, who were inquiring about her she ends up going to Boston to try to raise money there, and he basically sends a letter saying don't trust her I think she's lying, and also be smirching her character in other ways basically saying she's a sort of woman of ill repute and that she's squandering her son he's smoking expensive cigars, and she gets a hold of this letter and sues him for libel, and actually wins so this is one of the ironies of stills life is he spends more than a decade breaking the law in aiding fugitive slaves. And when he actually goes to jail it's for libeling this, this black woman Ellen Wells just for a couple days. So, so does this have any impact on stills leadership in the movements and an impact on the Underground Railroad in Philadelphia. So it's hard to say, I mean certainly does so there's certainly those who this comes, it sort of comes in a wave here at the end of the 1850s, there are a series of these controversies where still is kind of squeezing the, the purse strings of the Agilent's committee in a way that begins to anger people and so we do begin to see more and more prominent criticism of William still at this point. Now in part that's because he's become really prominent right, the person who is relatively obscure in 1850 is very well known by 1859. When he's starting to get these criticisms. It's possible that these criticisms helped encourage him to step away from the Pennsylvania anti slavery society. But in really in reality that's also a factor of, you know the Civil War is coming. The fight over slavery is changing so he steps away from multiple reasons but I think certainly for some people these controversies do dim his, his reputation somewhat. So, I'm going to go back to something you mentioned earlier and that is how many of these freedom seekers they received assistance from William still the Philadelphia vigilance committee. They were sent to upper Canada or Canada. So what's interesting about William still in this biography something new that I learned about William still is that still finally makes the journey to upper Canada in 1855. So, why did still finally decide to visit upper Canada, and what's the significance for this trip for still in the Underground Railroad in Philadelphia. By this point by by the mid 1850s still had had been sending hundreds of fugitive slaves north many of them to Canada. And, you know the idea was that Canada was a place where they could not be captured by slave catchers at least not legally. And so, you know, much is made of of Canada as the promised land, as the place of refuge, lots of abolitionists point to the fact that not only are fugitive slaves, free from this sort of threat there but they also are given citizenship rights so they, they make a great deal of the irony of the fact that black people are granted these rights under, you know the queen that they're denied in the republican land of United States. So, so there's this sort of notion of Canada as a place of refuge, but there's also this counter narrative that people begin to say, you know it Canada is is not a safe place right and they keep they sort of play up this idea that these black communities in Canada are full of poverty and discrimination themselves and that you know, and of course many of these arguments are coming from people who are not sympathetic to still in the Underground Railroad at all. But nevertheless I think there's this desire on stills part to see for himself, right to see for himself. What are the conditions that black people are finding in these communities. Are they the refuge that that he and his allies have made it out to be or are there problems there that would suggest that this isn't an appropriate place for African Americans to find refuge. And so, you know for one of the few times in the 1850s he leaves Philadelphia, he goes on his one of his older brothers accompanies him on this trip and he travels and visits a number of these towns and cities, where we have significant communities. And I would say, largely comes away impressed largely he comes away with the sense that these are thriving black communities. You know, in his reports, he suggests that this is proof that, you know, that free black people can live in harmony with white people that they can create thriving communities that they can improve themselves. They can do all the things that he and his allies have been arguing and so, you know, for him, the success of these black colonies in Canada become a part of the disproving of the racist ideas that had supported slavery in the United States. But I think they're also reassuring to him, you know, I think he is somewhat concerned that, you know, this work that he's doing to help people is ending up sending them to a place where maybe there were problems so I think that's really comforting to him to be able to see that firsthand. I think it's also, you know, to him personally it's reassuring to to reconnect with people who he had helped along the road to freedom. So he ends up seeing lots of people in Canada. Later, actually, William Wells Brown will write about this, that still is kind of recognized as a hero in Canada in a way that I think in the United States. He's always a little bit obscure. He's never the prominent figure that maybe some other folks are as he travels around these communities in Canada. He's kind of welcomed as this, this really remarkable figure and I think that probably is reassuring to him as someone who had done a ton of work to make this possible. Surely, made him feel good about himself. So comments maybe think of our discussion a little bit earlier about this idea of living an anti slavery life and how these free black communities in Canada are the embodiment of that. So an example for Americans to see, and maybe, you know, many northerners who may not support slavery but are racially prejudiced, you know, see that African Americans can be in freedom they can be productive citizens in the Republic, who are worthy of full rights. And also to a second theme that I picked up on, as you were talking about these free black communities in Canada is the transnational nature of William stills work so it's more than just William still being based in Philadelphia but these connections that he establishes, not just across like the north and the eastern shore with Harriet Tubman and Frederick Douglass, but transnationally as well in Canada, building these connections between free black communities across these two borders which I found, which I found after reading this book incredibly interesting and thinking about William still and the activities of these activists beyond the nation state. Yeah, so I think you know that I think comes back to the I think to me the most important way we can understand stills work and that is that he's a connector right he's someone who connects these disparate communities these disparate individuals who are willing to aid fugitive slaves or fugitive slaves themselves. And, you know, I think, when we think about stills life we do think about the geography of that life and and those connections are facilitated by communications networks right by newspapers by the telegraph by the post office by all these letters that are being connecting him with, we know with communities in Canada with British abolitionists etc, but also connecting him with activists who are in the south who are, you know doing the work in black communities. But then he's also connected via this transportation network right so so we haven't really talked about the mechanics of how people are fleeing slavery. And some of them in the 1850s are fleeing via the technology of transportation that's exploding this period by ships by railroads. And so still is exploiting those improvements in transportation technology as a way of making it possible for people to move out of the south, deeper and deeper in the south right it's one thing to run away if you're from Maryland where you know you can legitimately get some of this distance, even there though of course we know that you know, Douglas doesn't talk about this until well into his life later after the end of the Civil War but he uses the railroad right he uses this transportation network as well, even though he's only coming from Maryland. When we think about the transportation networks that still is tapping into people are coming from Wilmington, North Carolina they're coming from Charleston they're coming from Richmond these places further to the south. And so that's made possible by this, this exploding transportation revolution of this period. So on the sort of material level still is connecting people in these far front places but I think also as you were suggesting this. So Douglas still is unconcerned with the nation's day right because he is of course you know anything he always thinks of himself as an American and he's interested in American politics, but it shows us that the abolitionist movement spans the international borders right it extends across the Atlantic to British abolitionists, it extends into Canada. You know it extends, you know, stills network isn't going south so much but certainly we know from other people's work that the abolitionist work network extends into the Caribbean extends into Mexico so yeah this is a, in some ways still story is very much about a local geography but that local geography is very much connected to this larger global struggle against slavery. There's no connection in the mechanics of the underground railroad itself. So, as you mentioned earlier, William still is this connector as part of a larger, larger network of agents of the underground railroad. So, what were the everyday mechanics of the underground railroad how does it connect people and how do slaveholders respond to this. How do they seek to undermine the underground railroad itself in these connections. Yeah, so, you know, some, some historians have questioned, even using or the, the usefulness of even employing this language of the underground railroad. So some, some historians would go as far as to say that it misrepresent the work of aiding future the slaves to even call it the underground railroad because it suggests a kind of regularity a kind of system that didn't really exist that the underground was really about, you know, this sort of improvisational small scale aid to fugitive slaves and I think there's some truth to that. What I tried to argue in this book is that the, the importance of stills work is taking that local dispersed improvisational kind of aid to fugitive slaves the kind of work that still did as a child right that in you know what his family is aiding fugitive slaves they're not doing so as a part of any regular network of the underground railroad in fact the term wasn't even in use at that point. By the time still comes onto the scene. Abolishness in all sorts of places have recognized that there was some need for vigilance committees right which are in operation all over the United States as ways of kind of giving some structure to this effort to aid fugitive slaves. And, and that's really what stills doing so to think about the mechanics of how his job works. So, I like to talk about it as you know it's a work that he's mostly doing from his desk, which doesn't sound that exciting right we are familiar with the stories of fugitive slaves themselves were stories you know the stories about Harriet Tubman and the kind of drama of that end of the underground railroad and so to turn to William still sitting at his desk doesn't seem all that exciting. But what he's doing at that desk I think it's really remarkable because what it means is it's connecting these far flung activists who are in stills orbit and helping make their work more successful. So on any given day still might have a fugitive slave walking into his office asking for his help right that person had come, not knowing who still was necessarily but most likely that person had shown up in Philadelphia had looked for someone who was sympathetic, almost certainly a free black person in Philadelphia, who then knew still was the man to go to, and, and so still is connected that way still then is able to get this person's story. Give him or her shelter, food, medical care whatever and send them on further north. Now, sending them further north was complicated to because you couldn't just put them on a train to New York City. New York City was not safe for fugitive slaves as historians have documented. So they needed to have someone meeting them there so still had to be in contact with abolitionists in New York who could meet that person. Often this was done via the telegraph. So still is a part of stills work still is also in contact with allies who are in kind of like the region so so you know Thomas Garrett is an ally in Wilmington, Delaware. William Whipper and Steven Smith and Lancaster County. They are also helping shelter fugitive slaves, but who are then sending them to still who then will move them on to New York and so he becomes the center of this node of all these different activists who know that sending them to still is the best way to get them on to the north. You know he's also going to have connections with people sailing in and out of Southern ports so I talked about this earlier about fugitive slaves finding refuge on ships. Often that happened when the captain of that ship when there was some ally on that ship right so it's possible to still way without the knowledge of anybody who is working on that ship but but less likely. Most often either the captain or somebody who was working on that ship was in on it was able to conceal that person. That too is often done with the coordination of William store at least giving still knowledge that these people would be showing up in Philadelphia. So you know he's, he's, he's connecting all these people he's reaching out to them. There are instances and I talked about this in the book there are some instances of still actually coordinating people directly going in and helping fugitive slaves but that's far often, or that's far less common it's most often kind of he is receiving these. You know these people who are being sent his way. So the other thing, you know I've alluded to this. He keeps records of all these people coming in through his office so he does so for a couple different reasons, one is to document how we spending money. So still is always and really everyone who was involved in this kind of work was from time to time. So on how they were spending the money that was entrusted to them still wants to be able to prove that he's wisely spending this and he makes it clear that people of good will can inspect his books. That is, you know people who are allies are welcome to come in and look at how he's been spending his money. All of that is, is a way of not only defending his own reputation, but also of continuing to encourage people to give him money right if people think you're misspending money they're going to be less likely to donate that to you so all of this is a part of still encouraging people to continue to patronize the vigilance committee. The second reason I think that he keeps these records of everyone who comes through his office is that he has his own remarkable story and open the book with the story of reconciliation with his long lost brother so his, his mother when she fled I'd left behind the two eldest still boys. And eventually becomes free and comes north to find his family and kind of remarkably shows up in stills office and we have this reconciliation between these brothers who have never met each other. This experience still begins to really think about how we know of course that that slavery itself tears apart black families, but ironically, running away from slavery also tears about part black families right so for many of these fugitives from slavery. The, the brave act of running away is also a kind of traumatic act of leaving family members behind. What still hoped was that keeping these records would help some of those families recover those who had been lost. So when we look at the records he keeps, they're not just about dollars and cents that are being spent. They also have descriptions they have names they have stories about where people are coming from where they're going. And I think all of this is, is a way of using these stories to ultimately help bring these families back together. Speaking of families you actually have a viewer who is watching us right now who is the descendant of stills brother and he's asking us about the family of still that may have been left behind what happened to the family is still that was left behind. So I think I think this question is alluding to the story I was just telling about Peter Peter Friedman he eventually takes the name still to once he rejoins his family. Yeah, so the first time. So, when stills father purchases his freedom, 11 still. He goes north and for whatever reason, Sydney later charity is unable to purchase her freedom. So she makes the decision to run away and when she does the first time she brings with her her four young children two boys and two girls. And then after a few months, she's recaptured so all five of them are recaptured and dragged back into bondage in Maryland. And the master in question is really suspicious and locks her up in the Garrett of the house for a long time. Eventually she convinces him that she's resigned to her fate and she's not going to run away again. And of course, almost as soon as he gives her liberties again, she runs away. But what she, you know, she realized was that running away the second time was going to be even harder than the first time that she was going to be a target from the very beginning that there would be lots of slave catchers out for her and the children. She makes the decision to leave these two older boys behind the two girls were much younger and she felt like she had to bring them, but she felt like she would have a better chance for at least the three of them. If it was just the three of them and she left these two boys behind Levin junior and Peter. You know, this is to me, you know, among this is a book with lots of heartbreaking stories. This is a truly heartbreaking story to imagine her in the dead of night, kissing these two boys she doesn't wake them up because she doesn't want to make a stir. Thinking that she would probably never see these boys again now one of them she never did see again Levin. She didn't see but Peter was able to live into adulthood to save up money. And eventually, as I said, head north to try to find this family that he really didn't know at all. So yeah she had left these two boys behind and one of them never never saw again. I was just curious. So you mentioned about how abolitionist activists like William still use the technology the period the transportation revolution steamboats that are coming into the Port of Philadelphia, building these communication networks but slaveholders are also responding to this as well. I mentioned in the book about how slaveholders in the slaveholding interest in the government in North Carolina will smoke out ships though they'll send smoke in the ships to prevent enslaved people from catching a ship up north, or another instance they'll use the telegraph lines. So the catchers will communicate with the city of the law enforcement in, let's say Philadelphia or New York to say hey, there might be an enslaved person on their way beyond a look up for this individual. So, I was just curious so since slaveholders are, you know, they're responding back. They instituted a new more stringent fugitive slave act in 1850. So I was just curious, how successful was William still and the vigilance committee. Were there any instances of failure. So, um, yeah I think I think you've hit on something that's really important and understanding this story that that this is a kind of. I don't know there's a there's like a mirror image of all the work that William still is doing, we might see him as the kind of shadow of this professional and political organization that slave catchers are doing so the business of slave catcher catching is a business in this period there are firms that are committed to this, lots of money is being made by people who are recapturing fugitive slaves in Philadelphia, lots of police officers are doing this work they become kind of, you know, freelance slave catchers they're able to use their expertise and their connections in Philadelphia to do this work. There are firms in places like Baltimore and Richmond who this is the work they do. They are, you know, hiring agents they know how to get these things done. On the government side right you talked about you mentioned the fugitive slave law but it's important to note that that fugitive slave law is itself a response to state laws that have been passed in places like Pennsylvania to, you know, to do lots of things to protect free black people but also to protect fugitive slaves to make it harder at least to capture people who should not be considered fugitive slaves right to protect people who are legally free. But what it adds up to is it makes it harder to recapture fugitive slaves, and these laws are being passed all over the north these are the so called personal liberty laws. And so it's in response to those government defenses of free black people and fugitive slaves that we get this federal law that is, you know, is making it easier to capture fugitive slaves by making it a federal responsibility rather than a state and local responsibility. So all of it of course is about money right and of course that money is creating great incentives for people to kidnap so there are lots of people, lots of free people who are kidnapped into slavery. Often it's indistinguishable that the business of kidnapping is indistinguishable from, you know, legitimate legal slave catching the people who are doing this slave catching are often not all that concerned if they, if they grab somebody who is legally free. So, so there's a sort of like constant struggle for who can, can out organize the other right who can be on the lookout for the other and, and, and adapt in ways that keep them one step ahead of the other side in the struggle and so that's, I think a really dynamic in this book, in terms of you know how successful William still is I think he's remarkably successful which isn't to say that slave catchers are, you know, never capture fugitive slaves. They do. But I think when we, we look at the scales here, you know, far more fugitive slaves who passed through stills hands end up succeeding in getting further north and end up falling into the hands of slave catchers. It's also very rare for fugitive slaves who come into the stills orbit to, to die from illness or from some sort of injury along the way happens but it's really uncommon so he's successful in, in kind of making sure that they're healthy enough to move on as well I think in this, this sort of struggle between the forces of slave catchers and slavery on one hand and, you know, the forces of the vigilance committee on the other, the vigilance committee is remarkably successful in this period. The underlying, underlying thing with the abolitionist movement is this question of violence and utility of violence. And one story that really stuck out to me in this book was john brown, who leads a planned insurrection of enslaved people it fails. So he seeks to capture the federal arsenal at Harpers Ferry, where he is playing isn't successful. So what is stills relationship to john Brown and the question of violence. So, you know, going back to something we're talking about earlier, one of the fissures in the abolitionist movement has as we as historians know is about this question of violence right and that the sort of Garrisonian wing of the abolitionist movement is non resistant doesn't believe in violence as a useful and, you know, there's another, you know, there's a sort of lots of abolitionists who critique that. I think recently, you know, Kelly Carter Jackson of course is the historian who is who has most been most illuminating and writing about this and I think she makes a pretty massive case that for black abolitionists that alliance with Garrisonian non resistance is one of convenience that that very few abolition or black abolitionists are genuinely ideologically committed to this idea that, you know, you shouldn't use you as a tactic. I would, I mean, still is, you know, throughout his life, an ally and an admirer of William Lloyd Garrison but when we look at his personal correspondence he even jokes about this so there's one one letter where he sort of, he's talking about someone who he's helped from slavery and they used a weapon of some sort, and he jokes about his own quote non resistance position I think he and most people who aided fugitive slaves recognize that there had to always be this willingness to use violence and when it comes down to it, his so so ultimately john brown does try to enlist still he asks for stills advice he meets with still and a few other prominent black Philadelphians to solicit I think, you know, both their advice on his raid on Harper's very but I think would very much have liked some of these men to play a more active role in the raid than they did still ultimately refuses to do so but it's not because he objects to the proposed violence it's that, you know, strategically he doesn't think this is the best approach. So I think that's, you know, still as a practical man, and I think most people who aided fugitive slaves recognize that they had to be practical. And in, in this regard, I think they recognize that violence could be an important tool in aiding fugitive slaves and certainly still prides his assistance to the folks in Christiana who rise up and protects fugitive slaves there he he talks about, you know, other instances in which people who he helps along the way use violence in in their own self defense, even if still himself is not someone that we know you know used violence in that regard he certainly recognized its utility. I have minutes left and I have so many more questions about William still because I enjoyed so much reading about this biography but when I end with one final question and that is so when you get talks about William still or when you teach about abolition in the underground railroad in the classroom. Are people familiar with who William still was, or how well like he's known. And if they're not, you know, why is that. I think William still been forgotten among so many Americans, especially since he's published like a wide reaching book, I would say, you just say it's best selling book but he circulated book. So, I think, I think it depends on where I'm giving talks so so I live in Philadelphia, and this is a book that said in Philadelphia I think when I give talks in Philadelphia people are far more likely to have heard of William still outside of Philadelphia. He's not very well known but even here in Philadelphia I would say that people maybe kind of a general sense of who he might be but but he certainly doesn't have the profile that I think he deserves and there are a couple reasons for that and one of them is that still himself didn't do a good job of promoting itself right I mean I think still there are times in his life when he is accused of being a self promoter but I think when we look at the general course of his career. I think he says it is true he's far more inclined to give other people credit. When we look at his book so you rightly know that he writes this magnificent massive book 800 pages almost about the Underground Railroad. As a biographer, it's a thrilling book to read but it's somewhat frustrating because it says very little about William still, I think it's by design I think you know still wrote that book, wanting to make it clear that the center of his story was not him but others who worked with him, but the center of the story were fugitive slaves themselves and he really tries to highlight that story in that book it is a book not about the Underground Railroad despite its title. It's about the fugitives who themselves are the prime actors right still is just helping them do the work that they themselves have initiated. And that's one reason that that still just basically hasn't to his own horn hasn't promoted himself he doesn't write a narrative of his own life for example. The other reason is I think in this, I've touched on a little bit earlier that his work is a little bit harder for us to understand it seems kind of not that exciting right. You know I said earlier that much of stills work is done sitting at his desk when when his brother walks into his life at the start of this book. He is sitting at his desk. This isn't the pose that we connect with high drama the way that you know we think about these other characters we mentioned, Frederick Douglass whose life is filled with drama he's this amazing compelling speaker and writer. Still, you know he's this clerk he's this guy who is is doing this seemingly mundane work. Same thing of Harriet Tubman right she's got this obviously dramatic story. That's not still. What I've tried to do in this book is to explain to readers why they should care about this work that William still was doing as mundane as it might seem as unimportant as it might seem it was absolutely vital and without stills work. All this other work all this high drama would have I'm not going to say it wouldn't have meant anything of course it would have. All for far more likely to succeed right so stills work was sort of taking this everyday work of the vigilance committee and using it to to make everybody else's work more successful. The big takeaway is that still understood himself as not this lone heroic individual but as a part of a collective struggle that he always understood this as a collective struggle not as an individual story. And all that notes will end here and thanks everybody for joining us. Thanks to the National Archives for hosting this event and thank you to Andrew for this enriching conversation about this book this valuable book. It's valuable biography on William still. So, thank you and thanks for inviting me. Thank you so much.