 there we go excellent well good morning everyone thanks for joining us we're just past the top of the hour and I do have my screens shared and just you're having some technical issues so everyone can see the screen just fine yes excellent I like to hear that I'll assume everyone else does I can hear it as well I can see it as well excellent thank you so much well again good morning we have a special guest with us and and we'll we'll get to Ben in just a moment but first and and again as always first of all welcome and and thanks for joining us and I appreciate the time that you're you're setting aside for this next hour this is hyperledger healthcare special interest group and as always as a reminder we are recording this this presentation and I also am obligated to mention that we have an antitrust slide so we'll move over to that and so that antitrust policy if you won't feel free to read through the details of it there's a URL in there with additional information regarding antitrust for the Linux Foundation but in some it really is just be a good person and that's what that's really all about as always as well if there's anyone on the call that's new and you'd like to introduce yourself now would be a great time to do so I see a couple of new names or names unfamiliar to me but feel free to to say hello and talk a little bit about yourself your interests where you're from and how blockchain technologies you're seeing value in the healthcare space good morning everyone this is Alex Poston I'm the chief technology officer for hashed health based out of Nashville Tennessee although I happened to live in Orlando and it's a little nicer than natural this time of year hashed health is a long-standing healthcare blockchain or distributed ledger organization it's been focusing for years on trying to help people understand blockchain understand space and in the healthcare community and in the community as a whole and my background specifically starting healthcare technology companies and you know hopefully solving some real-world problems and then in those out to people so I appreciate being here and look forward learning more well great to have you Alex yeah well sure hash health I think most people know about hashed health and great to have you on the call this morning and I'm sure this will be a great opportunity if you learn for you a little bit more about what's going on with with Ben and and ledger domain and so yeah great to have you on the call thanks thank you anybody else would like to introduce themselves okay sounds good and if you are new as a reminder we do have a membership directory and it'd be great to have you put yourself on that list and it's a great way to sort of connect with others within the community here and you're certainly not obligated to do so but in order to get to the membership directory you do need to set yourself up with a Linux foundation ID and that really gives you the opportunity to make edits to the wiki here as well if you have any questions about the organization our special interest group specifically we have a FAQ page and that's what I'm showing you here so if you have any questions feel free to go there and as well if you have questions contact either myself or Erica my vice chair and then you know as well there are options for you to to make use of the hyperledger community by either through listserv which is really email our wiki pages here or we also use rocket chat which is sort of us an open-source slack like community for communicating with membership in real time so with that said let's move on to community announcements and I really have only one announcement that I'd like to share with with the group which is coming up in March of next year we have the hyperledger global form this is an annual event and this year it'll be in Phoenix Arizona and if you have any interest in participating in that feel free to jump over to the the forum the global forum page which I'm showing you here this is really kind of the the big event for for the hyperledger community to get a little bit more involved and learn more about what's going on within hyperledger and I believe we're hoping we'll get a number of speakers from our community in the HC6 community speaking at that at that event I know I think we have three different at least three different submitters that have made proposals for speaking and that I think that ended just a couple of weeks ago maybe this past week or two if you do have an interest in submitting proposals on let me know directly and I may be able to sort of help facilitate maybe getting something under the wire does anyone else in the community on the call have any announcements that they'd like to make nobody's doing anything well I see Wendy on the clock good morning Wendy good morning did you have anything any announcements that you've made a recent change in career did you want to share that or do you want to keep that yet and then well I'll sort of make a segue over to Ben because Ben and I were just talking before the call kicked off Ben was a speaker at the at the recent blockchain conference in New York and I'll just sort of hand this over slowly hand this over to Ben and introduce him Ben is our speaker for the hour he's also CEO of Ledger Domain and I'm I'm really excited to have him share with you some some of the work that he and his team have been doing at Ledger Domain particularly as it relates to pharmaceutical supply chain but there he's got several other projects that he's spun up as well just I think it was yesterday day before Ben spoke at the at the New York blockchain event and so I'll hand over to Ben and as I do that I'm gonna I'm gonna give you Ben the I'll share with you the co-hosting opportunity and so you should be able to take take command from here and and we'll get started so good morning Ben and thank you good morning do I need to share still or am I already sharing yeah you go ahead and share and then everything will sort of switch over to you okay hold on let me see if I can get that done and as Ben is getting spun up for those those of us that would like to take home a copy of that of his presentation you'll see the URL there's a link in the wiki page for his PDF that's available to him there we go let me see if I can now run the slideshow you got it well perfect well thanks very much rich let me start off everybody at Rich's request with what was going on at the summit and what I would say is that there was a great attendance at the health care summit in New York broad group of people in terms of our community I think the two things that were expressed where the hyper ledger was particularly in the lead at this point in health care which interested me from a perspective the perception that people had and offered was that permissioned was winning and the biggest concern was performance levels which actually surprised us quite a bit our own view at ledger domain is that hyper ledger fabric is performing beautifully in terms of scalability what we shared with people was we felt we were 36 months ahead of our clients needs but a number of people still seem to be struggling with that and that was even practitioners so that may be something for us to talk about at a later point but what I'd like to do today is to dive in talk about some of the things that we're working on and I know we've got a mix of people in terms of their mentality and interest but what I'd like you to do is to jump in and ask questions at any time but if you have a technical question I think I'd like for you to wait till we get to the technical architecture slide and then we can do a little bit of a deeper dive for the people who have a technical question if you have a question regarding healthcare more general just jump right in and fire away so why hyper ledger for us we've actually been a member of hyper ledger in the linux foundation for the past three years we chose hyper ledger fabric as our primary focus in the fall of 2016 which is kind of amazing looking back at that time it was not what it is today but we felt that on an enterprise scale basis it was going in a good direction and in particular at that point we felt that our clients and prospects were less likely to buy into a bitcoin or altcoin based model we felt that it would be uncertain as to whether or not that that would even be legal in certain jurisdictions and many of our clients have a global footprint so those were some of the reasons that we focused on hyper ledger fabric and we've been very very satisfied in general we run all of our implementations on hyper ledger fabric and we start most of our implementations with an iphone client as well that way we have a very clean simple stack to do all of our prototyping and demonstration projects on and it works very well for us in terms of blockchain's potential for privacy and compliance that's very much a hot button with all of our clients we're about two-thirds healthcare at this point but whether you're in healthcare or not privacy is the number one issue in people's minds for new systems if you're operating in europe it's gdpr if you're operating in us health care it's hip up and the new one that's coming up january 1st is cal privacy and our belief is that we're going to be serving clients and prospects that want to skate to where the puck is going and understand the need for privacy and compliance there's always going to be bad actors and there's always going to be companies that decide that they'd rather just you know do the crime and do the time and pay the fine um but for us if you're investing for the long run with blockchain you're going to want to come up with a compliance solution the way that we do that at ledger domain is we've built a docu seal framework on top of hyper ledger fabric and what it does essentially is build out a layer on top of hyper ledger that enables us to make use of hyper ledgers off-chain storage or private collections or whatever you're calling it these days and it enables us to put all of the pii in the private collection and in particular the way that we've set it up is as a self-service model and i think that's very very important and what do we mean by that if rich is a customer of a big health care plan and they need to get his driver's license or other personal information he can put it in private storage on the blockchain it's hash the hash is placed on the blockchain itself but he's got total control over his driver's license image he can take it down he can put it back up he can share it with his provider he can unshare it but if they need it to double check it and transact it they can always message him and get that information back okay so now let's talk a little bit more about how we do this this is a relatively recent architecture um and i want to say just to be clear that some of our clients are still on um fabric 1.2 um you know different folks move and migrate at different points and they're able to do that since they have their own blockchain but the can we see can you guys see my arrow uh yes okay perfect so what we've done if you look at everything there in teal and orange that would be standard fabric modules so we use 14 of the 17 hyper hyperledger modules by our account and what we've redone is we've rewritten everything in go that most people use the node js versions of so our implementations are 100 go and we've built a toolkit that manages governance with a root of trust has secure comms so that you can set every all your orgs up securely um and remotely and as we also set it up so that you can set up your own off chain collections on your org locally or on the cloud under your control the way this governance works is that if um ledger domain is serving as the sys admin and let's say rich is running his own org and he's the org admin all the keys get moved back and forth and all the contracts get set up through the governance module by common consent of all the org admins and the sys admin the sys admin is not able to see any of the smart contracts that org set up in private channels amongst themselves and nor is the sys admin able to open up the private collections so the org admin has total control over their org and they run their msp down to the member level does that make sense to everybody and then we run off world credentials for people that want to do it that way and essentially the idea would be that if rich had a big organization you know he was working for johnson and johnson or visor or somebody like that and they wanted to set up a link to active directory or one of their standard models for managing their membership they could do that meanwhile if i were running for ledger domain a catchall org for smaller players we could set them up with credentials directly through the fabric msp does that make sense to everybody so in terms of stacking it up then we run our own app server that sets up the community arrays the orgs on the hybrid cloud and that all gets handled by the sys admin and then we interact with the orgs to get them set up on each of their instances and they then have their off chain and their local node all managed together any questions on the part of everybody so again this is relatively high standard hyper ledger fabric we're using almost all the basic modules and we've just made adjustments to drive more performance more scalability and enabled our people to communicate securely without having to go outside of the fabric instance today people are passing keys across the table or using drop box or other insecure models this way the keys get exchanged the right way inside a secure channel that we've set up on the side and again we're super big fans of starting off on something like an iphone that's great for supply chain applications where you're going to scan a barcode a 2d barcode in particular and it's great for sharing xml messages and it's a terrific way to put a biometric front end onto your wallet and to provide a simple look and feel for people who don't want to have that command line interface vibe that so many of the blockchain solutions offer so again most of our clients they have a sophisticated person that is part of the company you know so Pfizer has somebody who is very apt to hyper ledger fabric but they have a hundred thousand employees that don't want to get their hands dirty um and we provide them with a simple iphone interface to do their business our goal and this is true almost across all of healthcare clients is that nobody really needs to know that there's a blockchain back end we're offering something that has value to people that they can see and touch and feel but it doesn't have to be a blockchain experience in their own minds there's feeling the security without really getting too far into the weeds and so the way that that runs is we put a specific app on docu seal you'll see some examples of that in a minute then docu seal manages and the notifications and the communications with the blockchain and also picks up the private collections the same way so this is really what you're used to looking at i think um if you're a fabric developer but we've just put some of these tools in so that what we've got is a python interface for all of these things instead of all the heavy lifting that you're used to doing the other thing on an outboard basis is we've we've structured all the notification engines separately so we do use you can see here the fabric event services or what they used to call event hub but we've put outboard in addition some other event services so that we can manage notifications to the ios environment hey hey ben this is rich i have i have a couple questions for you real quick fire away how how sensitive to fabric version is your solution which is to say if you if fabric did a version rev or you had a customer that was you know predicated on an earlier version of fabric where does that sensitive you lie for this overlay so that's a great question i think many of the people on the call are familiar with the idea of validated systems and in the healthcare space many people would want to have some level of validation of their system and so the idea of continuous integration and all this sort of stuff is probably tougher in that environment so to your point we would want to have a highly scheduled documented approach to updating any of these things and so our typical client or or prospect would be you know they would only be on iphone 8 today they might only be on an earlier version of the ios system they migrate in the healthcare world often six to 12 months behind they want to see the bug surface and get fixed before they move and i think that we would see the same thing in general on our side as i mentioned early on many of our implementations were on 1.2 they're still on 1.2 we don't migrate them automatically and we'll schedule say a move to 1.4 and let people know what the plan is handle the documentation and do it from there so there's a whole process of communication documentation validation where necessary on that side we have not yet rich decided when and if we would move to fabric 2.0 i'm sure there are people who know more about that than i do 1.4 is sort of the secure release that i think will be supported for the next couple of years and we haven't yet determined our game plan for moving to a 2.0 dot model i'd be interested in hearing what other people are saying there but that's kind of where we see people sitting does that answer your question oh absolutely yeah and and one of the the reasons for bringing this question up is governance is becoming an increasingly sort of concerning issue and i think this is a great example that where you have a solution it's a successful solution and and you know a customer would have to start under trying to understand how do they see see their solution over time as as a back end revisions get driven and you know and and they're wondering well how do we how do we sort of grow into these newer releases and so yeah and so we are definitely starting to see some some questions of governance coming up and it's it's good to hear that that the solution has some of that sort of that understanding already sort of baked into it yeah it does and i think but there the other thing that it bakes in which is surprising to a lot of new people is that if you look at this everybody can see the slide here yes so let's say we had 43 000 people on our clinical supply chain system only the sys admin and the org admins would actually be able to see the smart contracts so that might be 17 people at a 43 000 and so that old bitcoin model of everybody looking at everything is not something that we have had our governors if you will endorse um you know for the most part in pharma and healthcare uh the perception is that there should be a high level of transparency amongst the governors and the admins um but there's no way inside of this docu seal app for someone to can open it and get a look at the smart contracts and in the case of some of our implementations there's not even a directory which again it's i'm hoping over time we're going to see more transparency but the basic idea is that if you work at a big drug company and you're sending um information to a site you have that person in your own local directory but there's no sort of huge master directory of all 43 000 participants anywhere that you can access does that make sense yes absolutely so not only is it permissioned you have to know who you want to reach out to okay let's talk a little bit about some of the healthcare things that we've talked about and worked on we've all seen you know we're big believers that patient registries are going to be more important yeah sorry to interrupt Ben Kamlesh here hi how are you yeah i'm good how are you actually i have one question regarding the fabric uh so you are using zoo kavka as a consensus mechanism here yes okay we have the standard order standard setup and we're running typically here most commonly these days we're running on top of um ec2 on aws on level db yeah same thing same generally the architecture so you're talking about the hybrid clouds the nodes are running on the hybrid cloud or just the one one particular instance of the any cloud or like one pier running on the idm cloud one pier on the aws cloud other cloud on the some local machine like this architecture so what i would say is that um some of our clients are using a local server all we need is an ubuntu instance and so they might use a local server um it would be also common for people to be on aws on what i would call an adjacent model where i'm on aws visors on aws you know but they're running it on their own account with their own org you know i presume that we're both somewhere in seattle in the basement somewhere but you know it's under our own control um the one thing about the hybrid cloud model that i would highlight is that fabric itself uh right now is a little tricky to use on your own server on the private collection side it's easy to run a node uh but you do have to do a little bit more database management for the private collection if you're running on aws and it's not too heavy you can put it all on the same level db um but when you run off stage you've got to you've got to uh and you're and you're off cloud and running it locally you've got to pick a database and do some real work there um to answer your other question you know on mixing ibm oracle and um others again i would say there is a database issue um you've got to be aware of so in our case we typically try to keep everybody on level db and we try to keep everybody on a standard database off-chain it's much easier if you can keep everybody there um and when you start blending the different blockchain as a service people you you can run into some uh hinky issues at this point yeah got it and i have another question so you are using uh docker docker rise like an underlying technology or running the pr or order is the native uh code on the ubuntu machine or you're using the docker so in terms of containers which is your question um yeah in terms of containers uh we view all of these things as an implementation detail so as we go through it with our clients um each group has a different view of these things um i think that docker makes life a little bit easier we do worry and i wouldn't i would never write this down but i'm just telling you what we worry about we do worry about security on docker we do worry about security on couch db um and so if you've got the more of these uh layers that you add uh and the more flexibility that you add the more challenging it is to prove and validate your security envelope and so we in certain instances we've run purely on bare metal for clients who are highly sensitive to these issues when you run bare metal and level db i think you've got a very tight security envelope if you were to run couch db on docker you know you've probably got a lot more flexibility in terms of doing searches and things like that but at the same time we start worrying more and more about a back door problem does that make sense yeah but actually i'm asking about the uh order and peer about the component of the fabric like order and peer running in the docker containers so that's what i'm talking about we actually we'll actually run the peers on bare metal in certain instances that's what i'm saying but to your point yes it's easier to manage with a kubernetes and docker model and um we manage all of that through this fabric dev ops tools so we spin them up that way and it's all a one button kind of process okay okay again these are all important implementation details and every um every one of our communities has a slightly different sensitivity yeah and it's sometimes again i don't mind saying this sometimes it's their own experiences in completely unrelated implementations inform them as to what they're scared of they're fighting the last war maybe um but if they've had good experiences with docker and good experiences with aws you know they're more likely to want to work with that we have big clients that have that feeling um and if they have had you know less good experiences they have a different view make sense yeah it makes sense thank you any more sort of technical deep dive questions no uh escalate no okay so i'm going to skip through this pretty quickly patient register you think is a big area to provide the info hubs with blockchain obviously that's a great way but to manage uh pii and particularly as people want to aggregate clinical studies those sorts of things it's going to be a very exciting area but it's very very challenging um obviously you've got to have an identifier scheme think about how you want to link to your caregivers your doctors how do they get access and then how do you structure it this is one of the fascinating things that we talked about at the blockchain summit in new york um you know there's all these people in silicon valley who are talking about people owning their healthcare data but if you're a manned a steward of medical records the last thing you would want is for a patient to come in in a race an embarrassing std or something else that that embarrassed them that they didn't want people to know so ownership only goes so far um and stewardship only goes so far and data fiduciary goes so far so it's a balancing act of maintaining compliance with tippa and with newer policies like health privacy but obviously in diseases in rarer diseases where you want to get a broad catchment area you know chinese patients european patients to try to find you know a genetic problem or something like that and maybe there's only 30 000 people worldwide it's really critical to be able to put all this together talk a little bit about one of our bigger projects that's in the open clinical supply kit chain you can look at kitchain.org we work with a lot of very terrific well-informed large companies on this like Pfizer iq via who is the old quintiles ups the delivery company murk ucla health gsk thermal fisher and biogen we're our partners you can see what they're fighting with here is that active clinical studies where they're trying to find new drugs have doubled over the last 10 years and the pharmacies that manage those are bursting at the seams and again for those of you that are starting to scratch your head on what clinical supply is commonly if you're going to test two drugs and find out which one is the better you have to anonymize them and you have to blind people so you basically would take a blue pill and a yellow pill and you put them both into a white gel cap and you would label one a and you'd label one b and you'd mail them out and you'd give one patient the a and one patient the b and find out who had the best effect with the least side effects obviously that's a very tricky process and it's a perfect process for blockchain it's also perfect for blockchain because there are over 800 companies sponsoring studies at 20 000 different centers and so ucla for instance who's one of our partners has 700 clinical studies with 100 different sponsors they don't have time to go to the Pfizer website and the murk website and the gsk website to figure all this stuff out and so the thought was that we could put together a blockchain that would show ucla all the ucla information and show murk all the murk information so we work together as a group over the last two years we were the solution provider and the goal was to basically provide an amazon like experience to everyone in the clinical supply chain and you can see here that you're manufacturing you have companies managing the clinical trials called cro's you have people that are making this stuff called cmo's you got careers like you at ups and fedex you've got the sites like ucla and the patients all these are the people you've got to get them through customs they have cold chain it's amazing how many different types of organizations want to touch this stuff and the idea is to deliver an auditable and transparent system give people real-time information and advance notification of things happening so here are the roles that we modeled the sponsor would be someone like Pfizer or murk the distributor would be their cmo somebody who's managing this blinding into the white gel caps and then the courier ship stuff out to ucla and then it ends up at the end side so ucla itself has a pharmacy you would i would call it a pharmacy but if you saw it in person it looks like a cosco it's that big it's a huge warehouse and it serves 500 pharmacists and 200 individual pharmacies inside of the ucla community they have over 200 local clinics in addition to the seven hospitals and then the clinical study is managed by a principal investigator ucla and then many many patients so let's take a minute to look at that hi victor from ledger domain here over the next two minutes i'm going to walk you through the kit chain app which supports a robust collaborative model for pharmaceutical clinical supply chains by using the power of blockchain kit chain unlocks secure private and immutable inventory and event tracking for clinical supply shipments replacing paperwork and manual transcription today we're going to hitchhike a ride with a typical new user alex a new employee for a leading clinical services vendor logging in for the first time alex will kick off a shipment notification and store accompanying documentation as the documentation is uploaded to his personal walkbox on an encrypted server a unique hash is generated and sealed into the blockchain so it's impossible for the document to be secretly altered or falsified all of this is handled by ledger domain's salvage server reopening the message it's verified by the blockchain now let's share it with someone else alex is going to share the file with the gen cologne who works at a clinical site so gen can view and also learn more about the message to confirm its origins and authenticity going back to his messages alex can get more info on each one including who he's shared it with alex can also unshare or delete the document now let's take a look at some messages that have been shared with alex as alex opens a message its authenticity is also verified against the blockchain by harnessing the power of blockchain kit chain lets alex upload share and control access to messages with confidence all in a way that's secure and unforgible in real world applications kit chain will be configured with messages designed to fit the needs of the pharmaceutical supply chain including the ability to read and share unique identifiers with the advent of personalized medicine the clinical supply chain in the future will not only have to contend with greater complexity it will have to be managed with HIPAA and personal health care information regulations built in from the ground up great so let's move on to supply chain systems and wrap things up the other things that we work on are in the supply chain space so kit chain would be supply chain but you saw in its current form it's more messaging oriented they tend to know where the packages are but knowing what's in them and knowing what you can know some people would be blinded others not is what's key and capturing those messages in gs1 formats is what's critical in a supply chain world things are a little bit different if you're managing the actual custody as well you've got to capture all the transaction you've got to be able to develop trends and analytics on the control plane and then you've got a surface you know real risk management issues which is basically flagging catarising bad transactions and figuring out what you're going to do with them the blockchain is great at figuring out what was supposed to happen but when you have something that wasn't supposed to happen you've got to be ready for that as well and so what we've been working on is the next generation pharma supply chain um there's something called the dscsa which is a new law relatively passed in 2012 that's being basically supervised by the us food and drug administration and it's basically that you really need to know that you're not getting counterfeit or suspect drug as a patient and the dispenser can really tell you where that drug came from that's what's called tracing many of us have been talking about track and trace i would say that tracking is looking down the supply chain tracing is looking back up the supply chain so they earlier this year the fda asked for people to come up with pilots and so we partnered with our friends at ucla to build and test a last mile blockchain based system called ruin chain and the we picked a drug called spin raza that is basically saving baby's lives but is very very expensive and obviously it's hard for ucla to have a lot of doses around at a hundred thousand dollars a dose here's the dscsa timeline which basically says here we are where the alarm clock is the wholesalers are already supposed to be shipping only serialized product that has serialized numbers and the dispensers are up next to be receiving and shipping serialized product and so obviously we're right on the cusp of having this thing go live so that by december of 2023 everybody will have unit level traceability all the way through on an interoperable system so what we're doing on blockchain is to track and trace spin raza here's the drug as i mentioned it's very expensive it's a fabulous drug and just to put it in perspective this is a horrible statistic when they did the clinical study for spin raza all of the spin raza users survived and 30 of the children who were in the control group died during the course of the study that's how horrible this disease is and so they really want to make sure that they know exactly that they've got good spin raza at the right place at the right time so you're scanning the barcode you get this long string of numbers you chop it up and then you have to provide it on a role-based basis to each of the players and again this is where fabric shines you've got role-based access rbac's you know about those abac's whatever you want to call them and you've got so many abilities inside to do this just the right way so we've got these five roles the admin role the manager role technician role pharmacy role and the prescriber role with this prescriber being a doctor and a technician being sort of someone on the loading dock who's not a registered pharmacist but is a trusted person to unpack things and do the scanning and so basically that's what we're working on at UCLA right now it's called Bruin Chain and the idea is to drive a terrific application show it to the FDA the FDA will issue a final report next year and then they'll have to figure out exactly where they're going to be going with this but of the 16 people that are doing pilots nine of them and to my knowledge all of them that are actually building systems are all on blockchain and to our knowledge about half of those people are on hyper ledger so that's the end of our show um any questions that people have hello ben this is wendy um great presentation and i certainly learned a lot i had just wanted to get a feel for the degree to which this is truly in production yeah so what i would say at this point is that we're really still mostly in pilot mode okay and that very few people i would really say are in a true production mode yeah when do you think you might be in production i'm not sure that our customers are going to be wanting to talk about that oh fair enough so just curious some of our some of our clients are a lot more forthcoming and by the nature of their consortium so you can go on to LinkedIn and see the clinical supply blockchain working group you can't download the smart contracts but you can find out a lot about what we're doing and you can join the group many of our other clients view this as highly competitive information oh sure we don't expect that they're going to be wanting to talk about whether they're in production and as we mentioned early on i there are a subset of people in health care who view um blockchain as something that's worth talking about with their clients and stakeholders but there's a lot of other people that view this as a competitive advantage and they don't plan on talking about blockchain ever i hope that answers your question um to the degree that you are able anyone else rich uh yeah you know maybe a follow on to Wendy's comment how how are your customers um responding to the fact that at the end of the day this really is a blockchain solution do they care about it do they have an extra sensitivity to it is there a sense of um uh gosh what's the right word for it um well maybe extra sensitivity uh you know um do you get a are you getting a sense for that or you know because one of the things that we deal with is at the end of the day uh a lot of what what the solution said is on the back end it really doesn't matter uh and the customer is really looking for a solution uh to get you know to do their work so how how much of that is exposed how much of this is exposed to the customer that is in fact a blockchain solution okay so let's talk about that at two levels but i'm going to answer the question first in terms of our client or customer or prospect or buyer um i think the oddest thing about this is that it has the the feeling that we get with our customers clients buyers is very different from what you read in the newspapers and at the core i think the most concerning thing to them is that there's somehow not going to be able to absorb enough about the blockchain experience so that they could get somehow rooked or left behind from a technology standpoint i think that's the weird thing about blockchain is it's perceived as being so strategic and so important that they really want to understand what's going on and that oh interesting yeah interesting and yeah it's it's not so much that they don't trust it it's that they they want to make sure that they trust us as vendors and they want to trust hyperledger fabric as a platform they're very concerned that there's somehow some amazing data that they have what they're going to put on the blockchain is somehow going to get stolen from them or that there's some element of blockchain that's going to enable some new entrant to rook them in some way and so as an example in the pharmaceutical supply chain UCLA is not worried because they are still going to have their patients and Pfizer is not worried because the drug is still a Pfizer drug but everybody in between is very much in agony about what this could do to their business that that is understood that much is understood absolutely and the point that we make and the point that we continue to tell people is that we don't see blockchain supplanting and paving over systems of record at most of the companies that we're working with so the way to think about it is it's a little bit like if you've watched wall street news shows and they have a ticker tape at the bottom the ticker tape tells you the time and sale of all the stocks in the stock market and that's basically a blockchain style application it's a real-time application to give you a small amount of information about what's going on in these systems but it doesn't supplant the actual system of record at the brokerage firm to manage your stock market statement at the end of the month or anything else it just ties everything up and together in an infomediary way which is what I would call a data switch and it enables people to look at a data feed coming out of the switch in real time that adds value to everybody but that doesn't mean it's going to pave over everybody's application internally there might be a few small systems that it supplants but I don't think that's going to be the major driver here good okay yeah that that makes sense it's interesting there's a seems to be maybe even still a little bit of cachet there that this is a blockchain solution what we're sort of beginning it's getting a sense for is in fact we tend to talk in terms of DLT and less blockchain just to maybe take away a little bit of the the hype that has sort of surrounded blockchain that the term blockchain over the past year or two yeah I think there's a lot of people who like this DLT angle in our universe I think what it creates it's its own problem is this concern that everybody's going to have a copy of the ledger and they're going to be digging through it right there's no time right number one that's not true and number two you know it sets an expectation that is probably not realistic yeah but yes every one of these terms you know I think has has is a little bit of a loaded term right so you just have to be careful in terms of of what it is you're promising exactly well just to interrupt a little bit we are just coming up just have a few minutes left in the hour maybe one last quick question and answer before we close out okay well again thank you so much Ben very much appreciate the the presentation as as I mean this is to me very exciting in a lot of ways in part because what you what you're doing through ledger domain is very tangible and you're applying blockchain technologies in a very very broad way and again it isn't you're not using blockchain for the sake of blockchain per se it's actually getting real work done across multiple domains within the the healthcare industry and it seems to be very tangible work that's getting done so thank you so much for that and if there's no other no other questions or comments we are scheduled our next meeting is in two weeks from today same time on this channel as well and I believe we'll have another guest speaker uh yeah Mike Mike Marshawn he's our HIE integration director over at UC Davis health and he'll be talking about his experiences in the in the blockchain space within the healthcare within healthcare and so that'll be two weeks from today well thanks again Ben again great presentation and your presentation will be available on on the our website as well this recording will be of it made available to the the whole membership in the next day so people will be able to to watch this video as as they find time to do so any other thoughts questions before we close out for the for the week Ben thank you very much for your time I appreciate it thank you all righty well thanks again everybody have a great weekend Ben thank you so much uh great great presentation thank you very much Rich it was a real pleasure all righty thanks everybody we'll see you in two weeks bye bye