 to say that we've been joined by Harsh Kapadia, who is the chief creative officer and executive VP at MRM New York. Thank you so much for joining us today, Harsh. It's been a pleasure. Thank you for having me. And so Harsh, for those who joined us who aren't quite familiar with what you do and a bit of your background, maybe you could just introduce yourself. Sure. Hi everyone, I'm Harsh Kapadia. Yes, the spelling is just harsh like the English word. You know, in Hindi, it means happiness. In English, it works out just fine for me when I'm in the western parts of the world. I started my career back at an agency that was once called Jay Walter Thompson, now called Wonderman Thompson back in Mumbai. You know, I actually started with my bachelor's in commerce and economics and not in creative with an advanced diploma in advertising. And if you know, if you know many Indians, you know, bachelor's is never enough. So while I already had a job in advertising with Jay Walter Thompson, I needed to do something more in that. And I also felt a little insecure that I hadn't done a creative course, if you will. I learned a lot. I was very lucky to have my first ECB, I knew it in India, who taught me a lot really and built my book with me and put me on some of the best briefs. But then, you know, the Indian and me said I need to study a bit more. So I moved to Australia and did my master's in communication design. The reason I also went to Australia was actually let you work at the same time as you study. And, you know, in advertising, you could be all of academia, but really it's the work experience and the people you work with that really matter. So coincidentally, I ended up at Jay Walter Thompson Melbourne. And, you know, I got to be with some of the best mentors who really groomed me in, you know, what is advertising really in the modern era. And my learnings from using culture in India, I was able to combine those two. You know, after a few years of, you know, learning more of the ropes in a different culture, learning the Aussie culture, you know, starting to get a little settled into Australia. And I got the trick question from my ECD in Australia, you know, and my mentor, would you move to New York? And I was like, is that a trick question? Are you just testing me? You know, hedged my bets and said yes. And the next thing I knew, JWT in New York was inviting me to come work for New York. You know, and so with things that I had, I was lucky enough to accomplish with, you know, new best pitches with awards, putting JWT Melbourne a bit on the map. I was like, you know what? This might be a change. I could either change to another agency or change countries. So I moved over to JWT New York, you know, which was a very different culture, right, from Australia, even the same agency, it's a different country, a different city. And, you know, I got to do work on some of the biggest brands, learn a very different way of working as well. Again, lucky enough to score some amazing mentors from this culture as well, and kept in touch with my old mentors. And then it was a chance to go VML at the time, now known as VML Waena, started talking to me and gave me an opportunity to come over, which gave me a chance to work with, you know, many brands like Legoland and Motorola, but then also got me to work with Michelle Obama, which was super exciting. You know, and then a few years of here, you know, again, you know, being lucky enough to have done some work that was recognized by international award shows, new business pitches, you know, Debbie, CCO, Global CCO asked me if I wanted to go run the London office. I was like, well, why not? I've already moved three countries, one more would be fine, which got me to London and then oversee the merger of VML Waena. And a few years in London, and then came back to New York, you know, continued to, you know, run some pieces of business like Google, which was really exciting and did some really fascinating work on that with the teams I had. And then about a year and a half, Ronald Ang reached out to me and said, hey, listen, I'm starting at MRM, would you like to come and be the CCO of New York? Which was again, a new exciting challenge and an opportunity. So that got me to where I am. But overall, I've always been lucky enough to have, you know, left on a high, if you will, from a place I've never really had to run away from a place, which I often hear from people, but I've been very lucky with the people I've worked with and actually had a blast with the partners and clients I worked with. So that was me trying to recap my life in a short as possible. It's some CV harsh and certainly many of the top agencies in many of the top cities of the world. So it's certainly some achievement. And whilst you're telling us your journey there, you touched on something that we were talking about when we were chatting prior to this conversation about mentors and the importance of having good mentors in your career journey. Maybe you just chat a little bit about that, about how important you see that, even at the stage that you're at now. I think it's the most important thing. I mean, you know, I take mentorship from, you know, even after having the title of Chief Creative Officer, you know, I would say people like Ronald, my current Global CCO, Debbie Vandeven, my previous Global CCO, you know, there's a CD in Australia, Keith, who was my mentor in Australia and Anirudh in India, like they all are constantly staying in touch with me, checking in on me. You know, they've all had different life experiences. And I get the advantage to tap into all of them in different ways. But then it's not just creative influences as well. You know, I've been lucky enough to have non creative mentors as well, which helps me, you know, think about it from the business side of the world as well. You know, often creatives are not always taught to think about the business side. And, you know, that's where we start getting dependent on others. But if we actually take business as our priority, and I'm not saying when I say business, I don't mean number crunching and, you know, trying to get into the softwares that we don't like, it's more about having business acumen, because I think you'll be more strategic in the ideas we make, right? So, you know, I, and also mentors don't have to always be people that are higher title than you. They could be different experience than you, they could be coming from a different place. And, you know, there are mentors that you learn from. And then there are peers that you learn from. So there's a bit of a mix at some point, you know, you almost give a mentor permission to tell you when you're wrong. And then your peers, you kind of just subliminally learn from them. Like, that's, that's the way I like to put it as, you know, it's honestly, I've been very lucky to have great mentors and continue to have great mentors who always watching out for me. And, you know, what it actually does is it gives me the peace of mind to take risks and just be myself. It's not a worry of, do I need to watch out for myself? It's just do what I'm paid to do, do what I was hired to do, you know. They're really great insights there, Harsh, and makes me want to sort of scribble notes furiously or write a blog on the subject. And also in that introduction to yourself, you touched on having worked in different countries and the different cultures. And again, we were chatting about that, how important it is to recognize individual cultures rather than just having this sort of blanket approach to everybody. Yeah, I mean, it's really important, you know, I think, you know, as I move countries, often I get asked, where did you like the work the most? And to be honest, it really comes down to which culture did you absorb the most and what could you do with it? You know, and I've had experiences in countries where I'm told sometimes it's funny, I don't get told I can't be on something, but then I get told a team might not be able to be on it because they're not from that country and they won't get the brief. And my response has always been, well, you know, the pressure is more on them, they got to learn the culture more than someone who's grown up in that culture. And you take things for granted, you know, I probably will take something culturally for granted, maybe in India, that a non-Indian creative who goes into India might go, that's the nugget that nobody's paying attention and could really pull the heart strings. Because sometimes you take the most obvious things for granted. And for someone coming from the outside might go, wait a minute, that is so powerful, why are you ignoring that, right? And I've seen that happen where, you know, the pressure is on that person who's not grown up in that culture, who's the least expected to have cracked the brief, because they come from it from a different place, they don't know what's right and wrong. The more you can ignore what is okay, what is not okay, you know, you have enough hierarchies in agencies to stop the wrong, you know what I mean? But if you start limiting yourself from the beginning, you already narrow your, not your brief, but you narrow your spectrum of work you can come back with, you know, and when I say right and wrong, listen, I do caution on that, right? It's 2022, you have to be sensitive to other cultures. I'm not saying the right and wrong of insensitivities, I'm saying more the right and wrong of what's been done before and what's not been done before and how one might interpret something, you know. You know, if you look at global briefs, you'll often see, you know, just from an Indian perspective, always laugh and someone puts the color on and says, that represents India, I'm like, holy is like one festival. That's not what represents India, you know, but I can also see how fascinating it might be for someone who hasn't celebrated that festival in India and goes, that's my shortcut way to do it in a global piece of work. It's an interesting insight harsh for you to be saying that sometimes you can be too deep in something when we're so conscious of having diverse teams, but you can be too deep in something that if you're necessarily, you know, if you were traditionally nominated to manage something because there was the India connection, you might not see something because you're so familiar with it, whereas somebody from outside, which is sort of an opposite take on the usual reason for having diverse teams. Yeah, you know, I would say I think my journey of having lived in all the different places, I feel now gives me the permission on some, I just say sometimes the ability because there's no guarantees, I'll have this ability in every meeting. It just depends on the day, but it allows me to connect the dots that I may not have connected if I only lived in India, right. So, you know, I will have teams will come up with an idea and go, you know what, actually, let's take that India and put it, let's take that idea and put it in the Aussie market or the Brit market or the another market because this is way better than I'll give you a classic example. We were working on an idea here earlier this year, and it was funny depending on which country we wanted to put it in my response or my execution to that idea would change, right. So if it went to India, this particular idea would be ripe for WhatsApp, but if it was more in the US, I would have said it's ripe for Instagram versus if it's, you know, if it is the UK, it would have been maybe, you know, a site or a chatbot or something like so. It really changed my ability to how do you frame the right channel and the right culture to make sure it is easily shareable or does someone have to think about it. And I think that's very different like in the US, it's funny and I'm very, I'm generalizing you when I ask someone if they're WhatsApp and if they don't, I often realize, okay, you have a lot of iPhone friends, you don't have enough Apple friends or you don't have enough international friends who live outside the US, you know. So it's really interesting on how, you know, teams and people think, you know, one of the, like sometimes I'll have teams present to me ideas in a WhatsApp chat, which just brings it down to like the simplest, purest idea and it's not rambling on in a deck for like 100 slides before you get to an idea. And that's so important. We're talking about diversity, but then on top of that, now we're talking about whatever your campaign is, it's got to be suitable for so many different platforms that have completely different needs. And you were reminding me earlier that you were on the can jury for the mobile. What was the title of the award mobile? It was the mobile jury. Yeah. Mobile jury. So what exactly goes on there harsh and and what do you think are sort of the priorities that you're looking for in these sort of winners for the mobile campaign? So it's interesting. I've actually been lucky enough to judge mobile twice I can and with the gap of a few years in between. And, you know, the category has been the same at large, you know, our devices have almost been the same at large, right? But cultures changed, you know, technologies evolved and changed and how we interact with these technologies have changed. You know, I would say the first time I judged mobile, it was it was more about the creativity using the device, the creativity on the device, right? And this last this year when I judged mobile as a jury, we talked about how an idea transcends the device. How does it use your environment? And so the device almost is the medium or a portal through which the idea begins, but it might not end in the device, it might end with an environment around it. Or, you know, it's just a trigger to my experience in the environment I'm in, right? You know, there were ideas all the way from real tone that checked on, you know, skin tones of photography to me that is transcending the device, right? Because it's it's taking into account the environment that are around us to there was another idea that there was a mobile site that calibrated storm data and told you what to buy from a supermarket. To me, that was such a powerful utility, but could be a business transformation idea. If you looked at it from a supply chain perspective, from a crowd control perspective, right? I mean, all this happened on the mobile device, right? And I wouldn't be surprised if in a year or two, we're talking about it's mobile, but you don't even see the device, right? There are so many things, you know, there was a recent trip I did back home to India. And, you know, if you go to the malls or any of the places where there is, you know, security, you know, they often, when they're on break, they're playing, I know, either they're playing cards in the garage on the on the carbonator, you know, just entertaining themselves. And this time I saw something really interesting. These two guys were sitting down and they had a phone in the middle, and they were playing a board game on the phone, right? And I was like, that's how integral this device has become to our lives. It's not about texting and messaging. It's not about Instagramming. There's so much more that happens, and we don't even think about it, right? Like I still try to play board games with my kids like on the table, but I'm sure once they can do it on their own, they're probably playing the Scrabbles and the Ludos and those games and, you know, shoots and ladders on their on their devices. Like the tactile thing is, we don't even think about it as, you know, a device is still tactile for that generation. My kids are five and three. So, you know, I don't know if a board game will make it till the time of the 18, or it might make a comeback because you kind of need a break from this bright screen as well. That's a fascinating insight. And it makes me think of other conversations we've had about CAN in terms of, you're being exposed to such a wide range of campaigns and become really obviously really immersed in the minutiae of it. But then there's the balance then, like you're saying that you see these people playing the board game, and they might not even realize the implications of it. It's this balance, isn't it, of those who are really in the know, immersed in the world of marketing and advertising, but needing as well to recognize how is this going to be seen by somebody who doesn't know the backstory, isn't so invested in it. I mean, if you actually think about it, think about our behaviors in mobile. We don't even open our catalog anymore. Like my parents probably, when they first got that device, they opened the catalog, they saw what it could do. Now you don't. And if you don't know something, you just YouTube it, right? I recently got a car and there was something I couldn't figure out. I didn't open the catalog. I just YouTube the tutorial and oh, that's it. That's easy. I don't even want to read about it. I just wanted to hear about it. And I think that's where the behaviors will constantly evolve and change. But I think sometimes you have to remember the human in the middle. I mean, often actually, I wouldn't say sometimes it's always remember the human in the middle. And I think as a mobile jury, that's what we are always looking at, even in the work this year was, did this come from a real cultural or human insight? Was this a real behavior? Or did you make me go 100 feet the opposite direction? And often with creativity, I'll often tell my teams intersect your consumer where they are. Don't try to take them somewhere completely different because that's way too much work. At the end of the day, we're not just artists. We are commercial artists. We need to move the business through creativity. So we are familiar with you, Harsh, from the creativity course that we have on 42 courses. And that's how I first came across you. And I remember very well the piece of video in the course talks about how we balance up being creative and getting creativity just from what's around us. You talk about sometimes you might just be watching something on Netflix or and this sort of is way people absorb creativity, whether you're in an art gallery. But for a creative, we possibly see it in a very different way or we scroll it away subconsciously and it pops up again. One of the sort of things that you feel and you take your sort of creative inspiration from. Oh, that's to be honest, a very loaded question because sometimes I don't even know. I think the way I can best express it is just constantly being curious. Something that might look mundane but questioning even that. Living in Manhattan, I will often walk to work and walk back home. That 20 minutes of seeing stuff like literally yesterday, I had a guy on a scooter just riding by me on the pavement, but then was stopping at the lights to cross the road. Like, dude, you're already on the pavement, you're already breaking the rules, keep going. You don't see that every day but I'm sure somewhere down the line, I will tell a team somewhere, could that be an idea? And it was funny, it's New York, not one person even flinched or turned and looked at him doing the wrong thing. And he was probably going in the opposite, he was also going in the opposite direction of the avenue. So there were so many things about just that scenario. And I was on the call with the team at the time and I send them a photo of this guy. Now I've planted a bug in their head subconsciously somewhere, they might come up with an idea. I think it's finding those obscure things. Sometimes me and my old partner Craig will sometimes play this game of retargeting as well. If retargeting is done right, it can be done really well. And we will often play this game if you're messaging each other on different platforms, including some of the ones that are encrypted or claimed to be encrypted. It's a matter of time, how soon before whatever we are talking about, we're going to get advertised with something related to that. And because I'm constantly searching all sorts of things, my algorithms completely messed up, but I kind of embrace it to continue to mess my algorithms so that I'm getting to see new things and odd things and weird things. And my wife's a graphic designer. And so it's kind of a parallel industry. We always differentiate ourselves of I'm advertising your graphic design. She more draws that line more than I do. We're kind of order people, I think, than the purists of graphic design. And I'll often watch nonsense. I will watch my second screen is playing all sorts of nonsense. And she's always questioning my taste in those things I watch. And I'm like, you know what? I'm just absorbing nonsense at some point that will mush it up and end up with something cool. Sometimes I'll watch Hollywood to the shows that we all used to. Sometimes I'll watch a dubbed version of the South Indian movies, which have over the top action, which is like physics defying action scenes. You just never know. These things get planted in your head. And the next thing, you know, you're using it somewhere like I gave you the example of the security guys playing the board games. I'm sure at some point that will get into an idea. So I love to hear that story. Harsh has frozen this. I hope he unfreezes, but I love to hear that story there about just watching the film and my husband often walks in and asks me what I'm watching. And we can't tell when we're going to be able to use what we've been watching. So I hope Harsh unfreezes there. Chris had just asked a question that I wanted to ask him about where the curiosity was innate in us. So we'll just see if harsh comes back to us, or whether we're going to be stuck with a frozen harsh for the rest of the event seems to still be frozen. So I think what we might do is just see if he's oh, yes, he did say he would try to join me again. He was concerned about his Wi-Fi connection. So I'm just going to bring Harsh back in. Hello, Harsh. You're back. Hi. I'll just add you in there. Hi. You did anticipate that that possibly might happen. So I managed to mumble away for a little while. And Chris had just asked exactly what was crossing my mind when you were talking there about being out in the street and seeing things that for you, you were curious about. Is this something that you feel you've just always had? Or do you think that it can actually be sort of encouraged in people to be curious? Or is it just actually something that's in us? I don't know. I always thought it was in everybody. So I don't know, because that's how I always was. But if I compare it to my younger sister, who we both had a similar upbringing, I think our levels of curiosity are polarizingly different. And there's a reason why she became a lawyer. And I got into advertising, apart from the other reason of every family member of mine as a lawyer other than me. But yeah, I think curiosity is like I see that in my son right now. He's curious about things. And I would say it's not just curiosity. It's also observation. Right. You know, there are things that him and I will observe and differently, right? Sometimes he impresses me on things he observes. I'm like, wow, you spotted that thing. That's pretty cool. Like this morning, he was playing with Lego and he spotted a piece he's been looking for to make another set like two weeks ago. And I was like, you even remember you needed this piece like it was the most obscure piece. You know, so I think, you know, there's a really interesting talk from Ken Robinson on you'll find it on YouTube or even Ted talks, how we don't become creative. As the older we grow, we lose our creativity, right? Because the pressures of the world tell us what's right and wrong. And we start self policing. You know, and because I come from a family of lawyers, I like to always, you know, work around lawyers always tell lawyers, you work for me, you got to help me get around this, not run into it and kill an idea, you know, and keep me out of prison at the same time. You know, I mean, it's a more lighthearted prison, not a not a hard core. Those kind of crimes. You know, but I think that's where it that's where the fun comes in, you know, is when you can actually observe and connect dots of two things that were completely polarizing and no one ever thought of connecting, you know, a little bit like MacGyver, you know, MacGyver never had the tools he needed to get out of places. But he took the two things and somehow always got out of everything, you know, and so I'll sometimes even talk about cultural MacGyverism, something I've learned in India or Australia and connected to something I've learned in the US. When you fuse those two together, you get a bit of a MacGyver moment that looks different, you know, and some of you may not even have heard of MacGyver. So look up the original classic MacGyver show and you'll see what I mean. It's a great it's a great term. Did you create that yourself? Yes, there was an interview I was doing, you know, not that long ago and I was talking about this and I think in the discussion, it just ended up happening, you know, with this person who was interviewing me and it just became a thing. And now I'm like, you know, it's I think those two words together just explains everything if you know MacGyver. It's a it's a fantastic term. And you were saying about getting the curiosity sort of drilled out as it were. And it is something that's often more related to the word childlike, childlike curiosity. Another thing that we don't see so much of these days. And I know that Rory Sutherland often comments on this is sort of a lack of general humor in in marketing seems to sort of lost that human. Is that something that you're conscious of or concerned about or Well, you know, my team earlier this year created something called non-fungible testicles. You know, it was and it was a testicle a cancer month and it was interesting how we actually presented this idea to the sense of sense of humor. But the non-fungible testicles was creating a parallel to the behavior we wanted people to follow in the real world of checking in on their testicles every month. We created an NFT where you had to check in on it every month. And if you did, you got traits for your digital testicles, which means it made it became a unique and the value would go up. If you didn't check in, you'd lose the traits and the value would go further down. Right. And so making that as a behavior in, in a more innovative channel and a more, you know, forward looking channel made it top of mind for going, Oh, if I got to check in there, I probably have to check back in my, on my real ones as well. Right. So, so humor played a role on that because, you know, it's funny every time, you know, we're talking to someone and we talk about, Oh, yeah, earlier this year we did non-fungible testicles. The grin just doesn't go away. So humor does have a role to play. I mean, you, you can do purpose driven work. We did this for November. You know, you can do purpose driven work with a, with a, with a tongue in cheek humor to it. You know, it doesn't all have to be laugh out loud. It more has to connect to you at the human level. You know, not that long ago we did something with Motorola where if you ever owned a motor razor, you know, the satisfaction we used to get when you used to hang up on people. Right. We took that as we looked at the data and we found that it was one of the highest hang up was one of the most positive terms for the motor razor. And when they came back two years ago, you know, the brief to us was we don't have a new phone this year. We want to use last year's model. Can you help us stay in culture? And so we took the hang up nuance and then we said, Well, there is a lot of hate and conformity that exists on the internet, which we experienced through the portal called our devices, our mobiles. Motorola being a flip phone with the nostalgia of the hang up is the only phone that can actually hang up on it. And so we created part of the influences and we created thousands of gifts where the influences are just hanging up on different topics of conformity, different topics of hate. And then we partnered with some TikTok influencers who even created a TikTok song to hang up on it. You know, and so when you combined all that gifts is such a light hearted medium. You can say so much without upsetting anybody, but you land your point. Right. So not the, not the laugh out loud humor again, not the, it's not telling you it's funny, but it took a serious topic in a light hearted way to almost diffuse the seriousness of hate and conformity. Right. So those are just two examples that we've done at MRM in recent times and then we continue to do more of that. But I think personality is really important in the work we do and it can be digital. It can be non-traditional. It doesn't mean it has to get serious and very techy. In fact, technology should be invisible. Talking about digital, there's so much talk about the metaverse. What sort of role does that play in your planning at MRM? Is this something that is sort of you're very conscious of or you need to plan for? No, metaverse is absolutely a priority for us. I mean, the non-fungible testicles is a Web 3 idea. Right. And there are, I mean, I think every week we get a new brief on clients asking us either to educate them more so that they can do something with it or what can we do. In fact, we're probably have four projects right now that I'm super excited about coming out in the new year. I think it is going to be a point right now. Everybody's thinking about it, but at some point it's just going to be natural to go between the metaverse and the real world. Yes, there's a lot of naysayers out there about it. But remember one thing, the metaverse is a very large topic. Right now, people are including the crypto fluctuations, they're including the NFTs, they're including the immersive experiences you get in the immersive worlds of the metaverse. There are so many things going on at the same time. Then how do you onboard yourself, get a wallet and get all the currencies to transact with and build your avatar. There's just so many things all hitting at us at the same time. If you remember back in the day when Internet 1.0 came out, we started slowly. We started with email. I think we started with search or email, one of those things, right? Then we started with email. Then we started with a little bit more and things grew over time. With 2.0, we just added on some social platforms and a little bit more control. We leveled up our craft in this world, which became more pleasing to the eyes. Then we also lost the dial-up sound from our ears. Now you reach Web 3 and I would say we are in 2.5 more than 3 because 3 is more decentralized. I don't think humans are yet willing to give away control the way 3 is supposed to work. I don't know if it ever will. In this 2.5, we've been bombarded. During the pandemic, it fast-tracked a lot of things. We've been bombarded with so many buzzwords, so many things to understand and life is going on at the same time. Two is going on at the same time. There's a future state versus current state that are naysayers and there are yesayers. There's so many things going on at the same time. The metaverse sometimes sounds way more complicated than it actually is. Have you figured it out yet? No, because we're constantly learning it. We're constantly learning what could go wrong with it versus what could be great for it. The best thing is to learn bits and chunks at a time but regularly doing it because if you do it once and you forget it, that's it. You're going to be dated. That's the speed at which Web 3 is and the metaverse world is working. In fact, a lot of people think to be in the metaverse, you have to wear your glasses and you don't. But there is a misconception because a lot of the editorial articles that go out there, you always see some person wearing those glasses and sitting out there. Most people are connecting that to, oh, you can't do it without that. They're like, no, actually, it's much bigger than that. That's just one example on how perceptions get created versus you actually learning about it and doing it. Sometimes we learn stuff on the fly. The non-fungible testicles was our first NFT project here. We developed it in-house internally and we learned a lot from it. In fact, we used it as one that's to great creativity and it's a great idea. We had a very supportive plant at November. But then we also used it to train a lot of our teams on what it actually takes to do a successful NFT project. It's fascinating to hear some of those projects. Also, it interested me to hear that clients are coming to you and saying, what is this metaverse or what should be doing? Is there anxiety made about missing the boat or being left behind whilst everyone's charging ahead? I don't know if there's anxiety. Maybe there's a little bit of foam or there is a little bit of everybody's talking about this. I think I need to know about this. In some cases, in fact, with some of our clients, they've hired Web 3 specialists. It really becomes helpful when we have that because then you're speaking the same language. I think sometimes it's also different brands and different clients of different appetites and different reasons. At the moment, a lot of our conversations are sitting around, you need to have utility baked into your experiences like it needs to be useful. It can't just be, those days are over where you're just sticking a JPEG into an NFT and saying it's an NFT. Don't get me wrong, that still happens. But an artist doing that versus a brand doing it are two different things. It's interesting how the terminology has changed as well because there are so many memes and those memes still float around. I can just copy a JPEG, but actually you own the JPEG, not copy it. It's like you could own a Van Gogh or you could print out a Van Gogh from the internet. It's not the same thing. Even the industry started changing the term to calling it a digital asset so that it actually starts making more sense of, no, it's something you own. It's not just a JPEG. I'm just using that as an example. There's so many of these examples. We often talk about DAOs, decentralized groups that help make decisions. How many brands are ready to take that on at the moment? How many of us here would be ready to give away control? That's the other thing you want to think about. If you give it away, who are you giving it away to? There are so many unanswered questions. There will be the early adopters. If you look at Nike, they've really invested big in this world and they're reaping the benefits. We often tell clients sometimes it's good to get in early because you do have permission to fail because everyone's trying something new. But once it's established, your permission to fail starts getting lesser and lesser because your consumers in your world become experts at it. Even if they're not, they have a point of view. You fail their expectation. They're going to have something to say about it. It's just about at what point are you allowed to miss the expectation because it's new or pass the expectation and then that becomes the new expectation. I was glad you just brought that up, Harsh, because I was just going to talk to you about in the world of creativity, we often say we have to have the freedom to fail. We want to be able to go outside our comfort zone without worrying that we're going to be judged in what we do and then you've touched on that there and it is a very important aspect of creativity. Yeah, I mean, it's tricky. At the end of the day, it is a business. You're going to supposed to move brands. I think you can take risks, but if you're strategic, those risks don't feel as risky. If you have a good enough reason and I think I often tell creators early in their career, don't just be a creator for creative sake. We are commercial creators. We're not artists. We are commercially minded with a really sharp eye to being artistic. There's a fine line between the two things because as an artist, you get to do whatever you want. You are your own boss. As a commercial artist or a person in advertising, whether you're a developer, an art director, a writer, it doesn't matter, you're writing a form of art to get people interested in the product or service you're trying to sell. A lot of it comes from a human insight, a real product truth and how we talk about it. Then advertising, the word advertising gives us permission to exaggerate it, to make it entertaining, to make it engaging. That's really our job. How do we use new mediums and new channels and data to actually turn that into ideas that people feel like they're making a building a relationship between the consumer and the brand is where it starts getting interesting. We all have different levels of relationships with people. If you want to talk to that favorite uncle, which brand is that? If you want to talk to your mom, which brand is that? They all have different relationships and brands in our life. We've touched on so many aspects in this conversation, Harsh. It's been really wide. I feel we've come full circle because you're talking now about the importance of business as a creative. As you did when we opened the conversation and Chris commented earlier on there, he said that could be a handy course business acumen for creatives. Maybe that's the direction we'll be going in next. I think we're close to coming out of time now. I really want to thank you, Harsh, for joining us today. I feel we've touched on so many aspects that I didn't quite know which direction we were going in. We've suddenly looked towards the future of creativity. In that respect, it's been a very exciting conversation. Thank you very much, Harsh. Thanks everybody who joined us today. I hope you will join us again for another 42 courses speaker session. I just hope I didn't bore you guys that much. Not at all. It was extremely interesting. So thanks very much, Harsh, and thanks everybody who joined us. And see you again for another talk. Thanks, Harsh. You're amazing so much. You are epic. You're a legend.