 Thank you! Can you hear me? Yes? Okay. Well, first of all, thank you for coming. My heart is full of warm fuzzies right now because I know this is the last session of the last day and it's kind of like voluntarily showing up for the last day of school right before summer break. So, I really appreciate that you're here and we do not have a lot of time together, unfortunately. So, whatever it says I was supposed to talk about in your little pamphlet thing is probably not what's going to happen. So, this will be an adventure for us all for the next 20 minutes. We'll see what happens. My presentation is called Meet Your Meat, as you can tell. And what we're going to look at is basically two things and then maybe we'll have questions and answers. But I really, first of all, just want to do like a quick zippy tour to show us how meat went from this food that was generally appreciated and loved to something that we're all kind of told is a bad thing and that we should feel bad if we enjoy it. We should feel bad if we eat a lot of it. And so that's the first thing we're going to do. But then I'm going to do something a little bit different and we're going to look at some legitimate risks that do come from a high meat consumption, including red meat, all these other things that we generally embrace on paleo diets. And I want to do this just because I think it's so easy to find information, destroying the whole argument against cholesterol, dietary cholesterol, and saturated fat and all those other things that we're usually told about red meat and meat in general. And especially if you go to any paleo blog, you'll be able to find things that kind of defend meat from that perspective. But at the same time, I do think there are risks that come from certain types of meats, certain meat consumption habits, especially in the West. And I think we should be aware of those things because just having that awareness will make us all healthier. So let's get started. Anyone know who that picture is on the side of the screen? This is a guy named Nikolai Anishkov. Familiar name to anybody? This was about 100 years ago. He started doing experiments with rabbits and feeding them dietary cholesterol. And this really is kind of the beginning of the end for meat in terms of it being a healthy food for us, even though it didn't really have this kind of effect back then. What he found was that when he fed rabbits cholesterol from food, it made them develop atherosclerosis similar to what they're seen in humans at the time. And this was the first time anyone had discovered that sort of thing. So it was pretty cool to be able to induce that kind of plaque buildup in an experiment in a controlled setting. And so this was, again, the first discovery of the mechanism there. And there's, of course, a big problem with extrapolating that kind of research to humans, and that is what do bunnies normally eat? Do they eat vegetation, like carrots? Or do they eat foods with cholesterol, like babies? I think we know the answer to that question, for the most part. They do eat vegetation, and so they are not well adapted to handle dietary cholesterol. It's just not something that occurs in their diet. In contrast to that, humans definitely have a different type of response to dietary cholesterol. Some of you may have seen this study. It came out in 1991 in the New England Journal of Medicine. It was called normal plasma cholesterol in an 88-year-old man who eats 25 eggs a day. Has anyone seen this study? Raise of hands. It's pretty cool. You guys should go look it up. It's a good one to throw at anyone who tells you you should limit your egg consumption because it's going to give you high cholesterol. And this was a study of a man, 88 years old. He was in fine health, and what he was doing was eating 20 to 30 eggs a day, and he had been doing that for at least 15 years. It might have been longer, but he couldn't even remember when he started. And his only problems were poor memory, constipation, and loneliness. And he was probably lonely because all he did was eat eggs. But his cardiovascular health was excellent. And again, that's not a diet I recommend for people in general, but the fact that a human could survive on this is something that, you know, if you tried to do this with a rabbit, the rabbit would just like explode with cholesterol. So obviously there's a difference in species here. And anyway, the good news is that Anishkov did not actually think his research was applicable to human diets. And so we should give major kudos to the scientists back then because they weren't jumping to conclusions about their animal experiments applying to humans. And it was in the 1960s, over 40 years later, almost 50 years, that there was a resurgence in this interest in cholesterol, including dietary cholesterol. And there were a few clinical trials done at the time. A lot of them were not very well designed, but some of them did show that there was some change in cholesterol from people who were eating a higher amount of dietary cholesterol. And so that was kind of the first strike for meat, because meat, of course, contains cholesterol. And by the 1970s, our big associations like the USDA and the American Heart Association were starting to actively tell people to cut down on cholesterol. So again, meat got kind of a bad rap for that. And then the other thing that happened was the American Heart Association. Now this is a big agency and this is where we get so much of our information, they have a huge influence on the American public. They tell us what we should be eating and they are supposed to have authority. So in 1957, the Heart Association were saying that they were skeptical of any link between fat and heart disease. They thought there just wasn't enough evidence. It didn't seem compelling to them. Four years later, in 1961, all of a sudden, they did a major change and they're suddenly directing people to this lower meat, lower fat diet if they were overweight, if they'd already suffered a heart attack or stroke, if they had high cholesterol or blood pressure and if they led lives of relentless frustration. That's a direct quote. You got to love the AHA. They're so funny. And so obviously, that applies to quite a few people too. So this was the first time that we had a major organization telling us that we needed to cut back on fat. And of course, meat contains fat and so it got whipped again in that sense. And I should also mention that the fact that they made that big 180 switch in their recommendations wasn't because they came across new research condemning fat and linking it to heart disease. It was because they dropped a bunch of their committee members and took on some new ones. And one of those new committee members was none other than Ansel Keys. Who knows who Ansel Keys is? Yeah, you guys love him, don't you? We all do. So we obviously had some very strong opinions about certain things, especially fat. And he made those opinions known within the American Heart Association. So that's that was the beginning of the end for fat being good. And then the other major thing that happened was the McGovern report. Anyone heard of the McGovern report also called the dietary goals for the United States. Yeah, so that was a major thing too. And this was it was developed by the Senate Select Committee, which was headed by George McGovern. And this was a guy who had recently gone to Nathan Pritikin's low fat longevity center. Pritikin is one of those super, super, super low fat like under 10% of total calories fat people. And he believes that is the way to reverse a lot of diseases. And so George McGovern was kind of under the spell of Pritikin at that time. And so that was influencing the direction that the committee was taking with their dietary recommendations for the country. And the dietary goals for the United States, which was their official document was actually written by a guy named Nick Mottern, who was a vegetarian himself. And he was a huge fan of Ancel Keys. So that's, you can kind of see how that was shaped by a lot of political influences and things that weren't exactly scientific. But once these recommendations were released to the public, and once they became national policy, they became the basis for basically the last, see what year is it even, almost 30 years of our nutrition recommendations, over 30 years, actually, starting with the food guide pyramid, my pyramid, my plate, and certainly into the future, whatever they develop next will also be following the stuff that was established back in 1977. So that's kind of the brief history of some some of the major milestones that led to meat being bad. And there's so much more I could say about that. But again, we don't have a lot of time. So just that's the quick to be version. But now I want to look at some reasons that meat might actually have some issues, especially even in our community, where a lot of us focus on grass fed meat, and we think we're doing everything right, getting really high quality stuff. There's still some issues that we're not realizing because of our indoctrination in our culture, in terms of what meat is and in terms of what part of the animals we should be eating. And so we're going to talk about that for a few minutes. So if you walk into any American grocery store, you'll usually see something like this in the meat section. Basically, we have one row of muscle meat, another row of muscle meat, another row of muscle meat, few more rows of muscle meat, and then some lettuce to decorate it in between. And there's quite a few other things on animals that are edible that we've forgotten about. And here are just a few pictures. There's things like cartilage. These are tendons. Those are testicles. You can eat those. Those are bones. Those are pork hocks. And that's brain. Who eats brain these days apart from like Hannibal Lecter and not a lot of people. Do you guys, do you guys, oh, we have brain eaters in the room. Oh, that's wonderful. Good for you. What was that? The French. Yeah, the French do a lot of things. Anyway, so Oregon meats, this is so important. We've forgotten about Oregon meats. Well, maybe not all of us have forgotten, but by and large, America, we've gone towards these tender cuts of meats that are basically all from muscle. And we've forgotten about all those other parts that are inside of the animal that we can eat and that provide incredible amounts of nutrition. And these are some radial graphs from nutritiondata.self.com. And they just a quick explain how to explain this. I guess I can't point. But if you look at those purple spokes on the graph, those are vitamins and the white spokes are minerals. And you can ignore the yellow stuff. That's the troublesome nutrients according to nutritiondata.com, which can consist of sodium, cholesterol, and saturated fat. So maybe those aren't so troublesome. But basically, if we're going to look at a couple of these, and just compare these, look at the amount of nutrients that are filled in here. For beef muscle, that's the first one. You can see there's a good amount of minerals and vitamins, but not that many. Next one is beef brain. You've got quite a few more. Beef heart, still doing better than muscle. Beef liver, awesome. Look at all that, the nutrition. Beef kidney, also awesome. And you could do this with pretty much any organ, and it's going to always outshine muscle in terms of nutritional content. And so that's an important thing to remember, because if you're focusing on muscle meat, you're really losing a lot of opportunity to get a lot of micronutrients that are in organ meats that just aren't present in muscle. And another issue with focusing on muscle meat to the exclusion of other parts of the animal is something called an amino acid called methionine, which I spelled out for my own benefit as well as for years. And muscle meat is very, very high in this amino acid. And there are a few issues, and it's an essential amino acid. So it's not like this is a bad thing, just point blank. But one of the problems with it is that it generates homocysteine, and that could be an issue if you have impaired capacity to recycle homocysteine. And there's a lot you could say about homocysteine, but basically if you have very high levels of it, that tends to correlate with higher blood coagulation, so you're at higher risk of heart disease. There's some other bad stuff that can happen to you, but basically you don't want to have high homocysteine, but having a very high intake of methionine can cause that. And another issue is that a high intake of methionine can deplete the amino acid glycine, which is present in things like skin and bones and connective tissue and all that stuff we've been discarding. And so the cool thing is if you eat the whole animal, you're getting this great balance of all the amino acids. But if you just focus on muscle meats, you're missing out on a lot of stuff that is whack, like throwing your ratios out of whack, basically, because for most of human history, you've been eating those to tail. And it's only recent phenomena that we've been selectively picking the parts of the animal to eat. And I think that's important to realize, especially in the sense that we're trying to achieve some kind of ancestral framework with our diets, because it's very neolithic to only eat certain parts of the animal and not use the rest. And one of the other things with methionine is that restricting it can boost blood levels of glutathione, which is a great antioxidant, and something pretty interesting that I don't know if many people are aware of, but you've all heard of those calorie-restricted models of animals that end up living longer, right? Well, one of the ways to achieve that exact same effect is to limit their methionine intake. And if you do that, just minimize their intake of that one amino acid, it achieves the same effect as restricting calories without actually having to restrict calories. And what's also interesting is if you supplement those animals with glycine, the same effect happens too, same effect as calorie restriction in terms of longevity. So this kind of points to something, and I don't want to say this definitely applies to humans because those animals are usually on purified diets, and it's a very poor representation of human reality. But this is a good argument for, again, eating the whole animal and getting proper intakes of both of those amino acids. So this is another good argument of don't just focus on muscle meats, but look at the rest of the animal and focus on getting those weird parts that you see in the store and look really creepy, but they're really good for you. So some good sources of glycine, which is that amino acid you should be having a lot of if you're eating a high intake of meat, especially muscle meat. Things like gelatin, broth made from bone, pig ears, skin, eat your own if you have to, it's so good for you. Collagen, connective tissue, and eat those in abundance with your muscle meat. And you can make broth, like look at that, looks like a chicken apocalypse inside of a putt. It's great, it's terrible looking, but if you ever make broth with this, has anyone made bone broth or foot broth or anything like that? Good, that makes me so happy. It's so great, and especially if you use things like feet, if anyone has tried this in pork feet too, it turns the broth into something that has so much gelatin in it that you put it in the fridge and it's like meat jello when you take it out. It's so cool, it's like it's literally jello, it's awesome. So if no one knows how to do that, there's some great literature online, the Westinay Price Institute has some instructions I think, and I recommend getting in the practice of making bone broths and other kinds of broths because it's just amazing. And one other place you can look is into other cultures who have not lost, they haven't adopted that same just fixation on muscle meat and they still retain some traditional practices. Like this is cow foot jelly, has anyone ever seen this? Yeah, oh yeah. Yeah, it's common with some Eastern Jews, especially on Sabbath, it's usually made for that purpose and it's made from boiled cow's feet. And it turns into like cow feet jello, look at that, it's awesome. And it's full of gelatin, it's delicious and it's good for you and nobody in America, almost nobody in America knows what it is, but it's a cool traditional food. And there's other things too, like look at this, this is really, isn't that horrifying? It is horrifying, so let's make it even bigger. This is a sheep head on a plate and it's a traditional meal in the Middle East. Look how much awesome stuff, okay it looks gross, but look how much awesome stuff is in there. You have a brain that's full of so much nutrition that hopefully you can access after you eat the rest of it. You have this face that's full of connective tissue and tendons and skin and it's got so much goodness in it and I mean it's kind of scary to like have a food watch you as you eat it, but if you think about the nutritional content of this meal it would just be fantastic. And I'm not saying that you have to go buy heads of sheep, I mean they look like that is kind of creepy I know, but just keep in mind though it's eating the whole animal again, there's good stuff everywhere and it's not just in the muscle meat that we usually buy. And if you are creeped out by like huge heads on your plate you can always eat things like anchovies or sardines. These are like the two-bite brownies of the nutrition or the animal kingdom. You don't have to, they don't have to be looking at you for that long before they're gone, so I recommend those two because that's a whole animal right there in that little can. And I also recommend for people who haven't seen those strange meats, look at Asian markets, look at farmers markets, specialty meat markets. If you hunt around you should find a lot of weird animal parts. Like this is an Asian, this is not just like an Asian market in America, this is an Asian market in Asia. And that's a whole pig on the table like chopped up into pieces. You can buy the eyes down at the bottom, you can buy the ears, you can buy whatever else is on there, there's like a foot on there. This is how it should be. We shouldn't have just limited amounts of certain animal parts that we can buy. We should have the whole thing. You should be buying all of it. Okay, so there are also some issues with our cooking methods. And this is disappointing to anyone maybe who ate the meal a few hours ago and it was pretty charred. I'm going to tell you why that was bad. There's something that occurs when you cook meat at high temperatures. There's actually two things that can occur. One is a compound called heterocyclic amines. And this is created when, usually above 300 degrees when you cook meat. It's a combination of compounds, amino acid sugars and creatine from muscles that react at high temperatures and form this new compound. And another thing that happens kind of in the same way is polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, PAHs, so I don't have to say that long thing again ever. And these are formed usually during grilling. When you put meat on a grill and some of the juice or the fat drips down and then it like excites the flame and the flame goes up and it bathes the meat. And that puts PAHs on the surface of the meat. And those also can occur when you smoke food. But if you see char on a food after you've cooked it there's usually some bad stuff in there. And what these things do is they can result in DNA mutations. After your body metabolizes them and bio activates them by specific enzymes. And what happens in animal models, which is kind of our best evidence right now because it's really hard to study this in humans. In animal models it can cause things like cancer, especially colon cancer, skin cancer, breast cancer, lung cancer, prostate cancer. Often in rodents and supplement supplementing PAHs in rodents can also cause leukemia and lung cancer. And if this translates to humans the cancer risk among person to person probably varies because we all have different levels of those specific enzymes. And it all depends on how much your body is converting into these dangerous compounds after you consume them. So it's not it's not very easy to study and it's hard to say how relevant the animal research is to humans. Because it's hard to measure HA and PAH exposure. Partially because you have to rely on things like food frequency questionnaires which are just awful because no one remembers what they eat or how hot their food got when they're cooking it. And we also get different environmental exposures from other sources and again there's that individual variation of enzyme activity. But we do have some existing human studies that are of the poor quality observational kind that I usually hate. So I just hate citing this at all but I just want to bring it up. And they do show some correlations between well done barbecued and fried meat and certain cancers. Especially pancreatic cancer and colorectal cancer and prostate cancer. So what do you do? I recommend for those who really want to be prudent and who are a little concerned about this especially if you have any history of cancer in your family or if you just if you just want to be very OCD about your food. Use gentle cooking methods like stewing and steaming and anything other than you know like grilling and frying that really high heat stuff. And avoid consuming too much charred or smoked food and if you see something that has a lot of char on it just cut that off and don't eat it. And avoid directly exposing meat to open fire or temperatures above 300 degrees as much as possible. And this is kind of cool too. If you do have some something that you heated pretty high marinating it in olive oil lemon juice or garlic and garlic a combination of those things has been shown to reduce the HTA content by as much as 90%. Which is pretty good. And you can also marinate stuff in red wine and it has the same effect. And if you're going to grill or barbecue anything you can partially cook it using a gentler method and then put it on the high heat just for a shorter period of time. And then you'll still get that cooked like high heat flavor without all the damage. And then when cooking on a high heat surface just flip the meat like frequently like as much as possible. And that those are some strategies if you want to reduce your exposure to those things. And the next one did anyone see Chris Cressor's talk because I was actually finishing my presentation while his was going on and then I realized I didn't want to repeat too much of the information. So I'm sorry if you've heard this just recently. But another issue that will affect some portion of the population not everybody but some portion are iron storage disorders like hereditary hemochromatosis which is when your iron absorption goes into overdrive and you're just absorbing way too much with your body not having any mechanism of releasing iron once it's in there unless you're menstruating female in which case you're lucky. And then so in the US population the main mutations responsible for genetic hemochromatosis affect up to 20 percent of the population. And if you look around and count like four people around you one of you guys is going to probably be affected by some form of iron storage disorder. And that's a little scary. Again if you saw Chris Kresser's talk you should probably know that if somebody has very high iron levels for a long period of time it can result in things like liver disease and heart disease diabetes arthritis and skin pigmentation. And so those are obviously things most people probably want to avoid. And the scary part about this is it usually takes many many many years before symptoms to show up. So if anyone is concerned they may have this the greatest risk is among those with northern European ancestry especially men with Celtic descent and premenopausal women have some protection but after menopause you lose that monthly release of iron so you're back at risk too. And if you're paleo and you have some form of iron storage disorder one scary thing to think about is that you know you're ditching all those healthy whole grains which a lot of us are phytate folks at this point and we try to avoid consuming too much phytate. But the problem is when we dump that in phytate or phytic acid it binds to minerals including iron and actually prevents us from absorbing them and usually it's a good thing to minimize the amount of phytate we consume because we want to keep a lot of those minerals like calcium and zinc. But in the case of iron in the case of people who don't want to be absorbing more iron when you eliminate all those high phytate foods even the whole grains what you do is you increase your ability to absorb iron. So in some cases that could actually have a negative consequence. And the good news is there are tests available to see if you have some form of hereditary hemochromatosis and you can also bypass the doctor and use the website 23andme.com. Has anyone heard of that website? It's amazing. It's a genetic testing website and I think what you do is you spit into a vial or something and you send it off and you get all this genetic information about yourself ancestry things that you're likely to get diseases for and so if you're concerned about that's something to consider. And so if you do have iron overload and it's diagnosed or you're just noticing that your blood tests are coming back very high iron there are a few things that you can do to fix that problem. And one is to donate blood which is probably the best option because then other people are benefiting from your loss of blood. But there's other stuff too like drinking coffee or tea with meals that contain high iron foods because they contain substances that actually block your iron absorption. And avoid eating vitamin C rich foods along with like red meat or other higher in foods because vitamin C greatly enhances the absorption especially of plant forms of iron and you can if you're really desperate you can eat less red meat. I hate saying that to this crowd but one impossibility for you is to eat less red meat and just focus more on nutrient density and the meat you do eat focus on organ meat and you know dump some of the muscle meat. And of course there are other solutions as well that I don't recommend as much but mostly for the most part just donate blood and you can consider more creative options if you need to. So in summary what I would recommend for everybody sitting in this room right now if you're doing some kind of ancestral diet assuming you're eating meat assuming you enjoy eating meat and assuming it forms an appreciable quantity of your diet I would say focus on eating nose to tail of your animals. Don't just focus on muscle meat look for those strange organ meats look for feet and bones and necks all that stuff that looks gross it's so good for you and find ways to make it appetizing for yourself because it's actually pretty tasty if you can get around like the whole eating a face thing you know. So and then on top of that definitely limit the amount of high heat cooking that you do even though grilling and barbecuing is really delicious it seems like there's something there that's probably going to cause some issues at least for some people and if you want to be really prudent with your diet and if you're really after being in great health use gentler forms of cooking on your meat you know it's already dead you don't need to like kill it again with really hot stuff just be nice to it. And then if you have some form of iron storage disorder definitely donate blood or curb your iron consumption if you have that that issue but I should mention that if you don't have any form of iron storage issue I don't think there's much evidence showing that decreasing your consumption of iron would really do you much benefit so this is mostly for people who are diagnosed with that sort of thing. And those are my recommendations and I guess we're done for today and I hope that our time together was as good for you as it was for me because I love you all so thank you. I think we do have a little time for some questions if you guys want to ask Denise a few questions maybe we can just see that Easter Bunny photo again. Great start over here. So my question is about you know that old saying eat what ails you and I guess it's true sometimes and sometimes it's not you can eat thyroid and it could cure what ails you and I think if you eat testicles it can't cure what ails you but I don't think tripe does that either but my question is judging from what you say on your blog what you eat I think you eat a lot less red meat than most people here and you eat a lot more plant matter and a lot more weird shit have you ever and you self experiment a lot have you ever tried to eat what ails you and do you ever eat specific strange you know awful in order to address some body. That's an interesting question I've never approached it in that manner like eating what ails you and I guess I've never considered it probably anything that's valid you know a part of from being like you know old wives tale or something but I'm sure there are benefits for things like thyroid like as you mentioned I don't know I ate raw goat testicle once and it didn't do anything to me so I can't really comment further than that but my own approach is mostly I really try to take an intuitive approach and I'm really anti diet micro managing because I think that the stress of that is often enough to outweigh the benefits of eating healthfully. So what I do is if something looks just completely gross to me and I can't imagine myself putting it in my mouth then I won't eat it like liver for example liver looks wonderful to me many times when I see it in the fridge but there are times when I look at it and seeing it makes me want to throw up and at that point I think you know I've had probably enough iron or whatever minerals that I'm kind of topped off on so I take a more intuitive approach rather than like some kind of logical laid out well my stomach hurts so I'm going to eat an animal stomach kind of thing if that makes any sense. I hope that answered your question I'm not quite sure it did. Good answer. Okay thank you. I guess we can alternate. Hi. Hi I've heard from you and elsewhere at this conference about the nutrient density of liver and I've also heard anecdotally that liver being the toxin filter of the body might have some toxins in it and I'm wondering if you can speak to that. As the toxin filter I don't think that it actually contains those toxins. I think that what it does is it detoxifies them and then turns them into other compounds that end up in different places in your body. I'm not 100% sure about that but I've not heard of any problems associated with liver in that respect apart from maybe getting too much of certain minerals or iron or something like that if you're eating it very very frequently. So I think it's one of those foods that is so nutrient dense that you don't need to eat it with great frequency like every day or anything but use it more supplementarily. But yeah, yeah. Thank you. Kind of stole my question. I was concerned with the recommendation to eat liver. A lot of what we can get by us is mostly just your grocery store liver which I'm sure is from grain fed cows. Any difference then in the quality of the liver from the grain fed versus the grass fed with storage problems and all sorts of things. I'm sure there is but I'm not sure that it affects the nutritional profile enough to make a huge difference especially if you're not eating it in huge quantities. It really is like a supplement because liver, just a tiny piece of liver has so much in it in terms of nutrition. The other things that you'd be concerned about are like the Omega 6 Omega 3 profile being changed by grain consumption for the animal. But I think in the case of liver you usually eat it in such small quantities that that kind of thing wouldn't matter as much. So that's my perspective on it. Yeah, thank you. Good presentation. Part of your discussion of meat so far seems to be focused mostly on big animals. I've recently come back from China. And could you comment on both the nutritive value and the sustainability of a lot more people adjusting their cultural attitudes going back to what we've done for millions of years and eating more bugs? I knew you were going to say that. I was going to say that. Honestly, if you guys can get past the yuck factor of eating insects, they are amazingly nutritious. And I've seen a lot of arguments about sustainability. This is an untapped resource, especially in the West. There's bugs everywhere. And they're easy. They're so small, but they're easy to acquire. And I know it's gross, but I don't know. I ate a chocolate-covered grasshopper once, and that was my only experience with that. But I do think that if you can, if people can get past that, and that's the hardest part is the yuck factor. And I'm sure that's enough to stop people for life in many cases. But that is an interesting avenue to explore, especially if food supply becomes iffy at any situation. Good point, though. Yeah. Thank you. Thanks. OK, before I ask my question, I just want to comment about the bugs. Yeah. Lobster is just a big bug. Lobster? Everyone needs that. Am I right? Hey, I had a question about the cooking methodology. Yeah. Because that's something that always concerns me, especially the heterocyclic amines. What's your thoughts, first of all, on cooking with a pressure cooker? Is that safe to cook red meat in there? You know, I haven't really looked specifically at pressure cookers, but I'm pretty sure, because it doesn't actually make food that much hotter, does it? It just uses... Yeah, I don't think it gets up to 300 degrees. Yeah, I don't think so either. And I think that's the main concern. I think that's actually a good way to bypass that really high exposure to heat. So if you do use that method, I wouldn't see anything wrong with that. And also, I've read that sauerkraut and other fermented vegetables, counteract heterocyclic amines. Is there any science behind that? It's possible. I didn't come across that literature, but it's very possible just in terms of... It was in Paleo Magazine, by the way. It was from Paleo Magazine. That's where I got it from. Nice. Well, then I'm sure it's credible, so. I think it's very possible there are things you can probably eat in conjunction with high temperature cooked meat that will kind of counteract those effects. I would play it safe for the most part and not eat, like, obviously blackened food. But if there is some question about how hot your food has gotten, then you supplement it with some other food, I think that's a good idea. Okay, thanks. Thank you. Along those same lines in avoiding overcooking, I'm worried that I'm gonna go to the other extreme and kill myself. And so I've heard of some people and I'm about to try this, not cooking the meat at all, good grass-fed meat, kind of disinfecting it in an iodine solution and having at it. Have you ever tried it? I'm actually mostly a raw foodist myself. So I don't eat a lot of raw animal products apart from sushi and raw eggs, but I do know people who do eat raw meat that way. And I don't want to say something and then go on record and have someone die. So I'm gonna be very careful about what I'm saying. But if you eat really high quality stuff and it's been treated well and it hasn't been sitting out and it's from a good animal and that sort of thing, there are ways to prepare raw meat and make it not that dangerous. In fact, I think there's some sort of Japanese sashimi that's made out of red meat. It's like, oh, it's made out of horse. Oh, it's made out of horse. I didn't know that. But it's sliced very thinly, it's just raw meat. They eat it over there, it's a delicacy. So they do it in other cultures. I would say be careful, go easy on what you're doing. Don't jump into a huge pile of raw meat. But I mean, I've dabbled in that sort of thing and I've never gotten sick from it. So that equals one, yeah. Hi, great job. Hello, thank you. I really appreciate it. Thank you. I had a question. I know a lot of people talk about it. I think Perfect Health, they had a series on this in that some people think pork, there could be a problem with that when you compare it to other meats. Do you think there's a problem? What's your take on it? For some reason, I'm really prejudiced against pig. Like, I just can't eat it myself. I just, it never has tasted very good to me. Even bacon, I'm sorry. But I know, oh, I hate those groans. Oh, now the raw tomatoes come out. I haven't actually looked into that research as much. I do recall the blog entry that came out about that on the Perfect Health Diet website and I know it did stir up a bunch of controversy. But without looking further into that, the data and what was being discussed there, I don't want to comment further because I won't have anything educated to say on it. Thank you. Hey, thank you so much.