 This week's amazing guest with an even fan more amazing Facial hair beard is and what's even better about this guy is his passion for Developing coaches good friend of ours Coach gents as gents Robinson from the PFCA and Yeah, fantastic conversation of just I don't know the thing that comes across to me is just like this straight up honesty There's some absolute gold in here to make to make us all as coaches think about what can we do to be better and the Opportunities really draws out that for me like the opportunities that lay ahead of us those that are involved in Any level of sort of like coaching or teaching whatever that may be And it's definitely something in this one for people who are being coached as well and things and qualities to look for when You're trying to find a coach so don't just kind of dismiss the ones go This is just for pts and people that coach in listen to it and go can I see these qualities? And it will help you to find better people to surround yourself with which you can then mean that you're gonna get better results So have a little bit of a listen to this one Very good points in there. Yeah, they're very good point Well, it's just making it's just making me think of like what if someone's like, oh, I'd really like to have some Some good coaching There's the whole online platform But we've also got a new workshop has been announced in Liverpool 14th of May the school cast is are coming back to Liverpool for the new 2022 workshop, which is a full workshop they experience the movement strength and play experience where we cover Absolutely everything you're gonna want to do for your calisthenics training, whether that's hands-on skills Whether it's muscle ups or whether it's lower body whether it's mobility Whatever it is. It's all in there It's a full day with the team of coaches and a chance to be around like-minded people for a day get some high-class quality coaching and Hopefully really enjoy yourself and make some progress with your training Get booked on school of calisthenics.com head to the coaching drop-down menu You'll find workshops and retreats click on there and you can book yourself a little spot on our website So for now sit back and enjoy Jen's Robinson from the professional fitness coaches association on the school of calisthenics movement strength and play podcast Roll that Listen players You're listening to the movement strength and play podcast by the school of calisthenics here are your hosts Tim and Jackal What an absolute pleasure I have got zero questions lined up because we've got Jen's Robinson on and when I chat to Jen's very good friend of mine I'm the school of calisthenics we can literally chew the fat for an hour So I was thinking when we started this podcast There is going to be no need to prepare anything because we can just wax lyrical for the next 40 minutes And it will be epic Jen's welcome to the podcast to Jack. Oh, thank you so much for having me I am as excited as I am scared as to how deep this rabbit hole might go And the fact that we are constrained by time makes me feel nervous like if there was no time constrained I might feel a bit more relaxed, but I'm looking forward to it I Don't know what a jacket. You'll know better than me in fact You want to come entirely me when this podcast is going out But is Jen's coming off the back of two very deep conversations or is there a is there a yes? Yeah Potentially yes, we've been recently Jen's with our previous guests really because yeah Yeah, I know is following Jaco and the depth that he's gone swimming. He's got a full scuba suit at the moment He's gone free diving, but yeah, but it's that's that's not like we're talking The previous podcast would work about like your subconscious mind and like not even not even like going It's not even about going deep. It's like if you're going deep you're trying to go It's like it's beyond that. It's like blows your mind. Oh, bro. Don't worry We recently had a sports psychologist on with our Mentalship for our coaches so from time to time we bring like different guests in and this particular guy South African guy So already, you know, he's a legend he He he's like he's trying to find his space as a sports psychologist within functional fitness So he's like he does kettlebell sport he likes like the dark side of like pushing into that dark realm and He has gone down rabbit holes of trying to understand The psychology behind like who gets to thrive in that dark space and who doesn't and what cues whether they are External internal might facilitate better performance when approaching that and what have you so he was on this Like a webinar with our team with our mentees and he started like like Referencing some papers and going so deep that I was like holding in conversation with him And then I literally got to a point where I was like, I have no idea how deep is gonna go I'm actually scared like I'm just gonna be quite Because it's like at what point is this like really like relevant because it is it's very very relevant, right? But some people don't even know when to manage their own sleep or how let alone Like what cues to have when going dark That's um, let's just pull back a second and if someone is if we're not watching this on YouTube You need to come and have a look at this to be able to sample Jen's is fantastic Facial hair that is going on but Jen's um, you know, you mentioned there about Coaches and and your mentorship like give us give people because there might be a couple of them There might be might be one or two people listening that haven't come across like the PFC a or your work individually like Who is who is Jen's and they might have noticed a twang in the accent where you're from What's what's the background for for people and and then I'm interested know like the The origins of the PFC a and and why that sort of why that came about is a bit of it To at least have a tiny bit of structure on the question for you awesome, I think You know when you do these conversations you There's like intro thing that like you do for yourself. There's like many iterations of right But I think the way that you just heat that up and and how it might just like feed the origin story of the PFC a sounds like a perfect Kind of segue to the whole thing So who am I I'm sure me to try to collect shall I go it get doing your doing your bio Do I wouldn't I wouldn't love that that would be so good absolute legend absolute absolute legend beautiful facial hair from South Africa absolute lack of China, bro big strong guy and and All the good things fantastic coach trying to push coaches forward and make coaches make better coaches better at coaching Do you know I was gonna say the exact same thing That's a nice to that you did that other question why we got you on as a guest if that was the best you've got That gents Awesome, awesome. Thank you so much And I did put a lot of effort into my beard. So thanks for noticing So let I think in a nutshell I I actually came over to the UK to play rugby So I played rugby, you know rugby in South Africa is religion. It's what I wanted to do It's everything like everything to me and that whole pursuit to try and get to the top was was The best learning I could ever have to become the man that I wanted to be right like we can all agree on What sport does and those failures and those comebacks what have you anyway, so I came to the UK Having played at the Lions in South Africa a very young age move Joe and I was still 18-19 years old And the promises in which I had for my career just just didn't really work out as planned Who did you play for over here? So when I came here? I was playing at Ealing Yeah, but I came I only landed in the country like in Jan so I was like in the back end of the season And then that was when they just set up their first like They're like Academy like pro-level because they want to like really push on this is like going back to like 2009 2009 something like that anyway, and long story short back then like a Like those those contracts were so small right and I had my girlfriend who is now fortunately like my wife and The mother to my beautiful children, but at the time like we I had no money I had like nothing to my name I was living in my grandmother's garden shed in North London and I was like cycling everywhere and It was just it was like it was one of those things Well, like I needed to decide what to do and I managed to get him offered to go and play rugby up in Scotland for air So I went up and played there for a couple years Which the only way to describe it is a bit like paid amateur because you still need to have a job You still need to like you only training twice a week with the team everything else is just like you know You just crack on So that was an interesting time in my life if I showed you a picture of how fat I got when I lived up there I mean I weigh I weigh now a like a hundred and four hundred and five kilos back then I was sitting at like 125 kilos playing playing hooker like it was Actually, it's a shame we haven't got the visuals of that because Jaco once booked up to over a hundred. So you could have That wasn't on the Scottish diet, but I can imagine I can imagine you go to the right place in Scotland It can be easy to well to get a fat diet Dude like between drinking weeknights with the regular guys Sometimes I was so broke that like dinner was like a one-pound Packet of sausage rolls for me and the wife like that's how broke we were for a period of time, right? So like you can imagine and I was just like I was just so depressed because at that point I realized like I'm just like I'm going no no way with my life and And it wasn't until because of the setup. I managed to get invited to a few Coaching sessions. I still get like my my level one and my level two with like the SRU coaching what have you and then they brought in UK SCA where they set up like a strength conditioning like like certification for rugby So I got involved at that and then I started because I always loved the gym I've always loved the gym. I've always been in the gym since since I was a lighty like I Since I was a youngster. Sorry. I used to like always coach and help my friends like it was just it was just part of my life Being what was that word feet? What was that word for youngster? Lighty a lighty? Yeah Yeah So, you know, it's when I was in that environment. It was incredible I started to like started to like really get excited about things and my friend at the time He was head of like youth development for the SRU fellow South African his name was bossy boss month Tim you might be familiar with a few boss months that you might have met in your life So he was he was integral in getting me involved in this like this like coaching thing And I started to go like wow, I really want to do this so then I started studying to become a personal trainer and I've never like in school I was like always like I was like kind of good enough to get by but I never really like got to it from an academic point of view and As soon as I started studying this like coaching thing I've never like you couldn't get me out of the books like it was like it was mad So I remember when I first actually wanted to get like qualified a personal trainer much the first thing I ever did outside of this like UK SCA's S&C thing for rugby was like a an American like NASA kind of online PT thing or whatever and You couldn't get me away from the books I was I was training twice a day like because I wanted to like sort my shit out with rugby I was working in construction full-time and then I'd be studying to like 2 a.m. Every night Just because I really want like I was so passionate about this like new thing this interesting thing and I must say there was something about that book and I couldn't tell you what was in it or what was it about other than like there were there were value systems in there that Still stand true to me today and the kind of coach I want to be And the way this textbook was written it was a textbook But there was so many anecdotes that just made me feel like wow I really want to be that guy I want to be able to change lives like this guy can and If you were to ask me any time in my life if like What is one unique thing about you would be the fact that I can see like hidden potential in people more so than Anyone can see it in themselves. So if I were to have a conversation with you I would be able to really see what you can't see and I'd want to be able to facilitate you getting there Because I love seeing that happen in people So like this fire started ignite As a personal trainer and long story short I ended up leaving Scotland moving to London setting up as a personal trainer and like a later fitness And then started like that whole commercial PT route now as we discussed We're not here to talk about how bad the industry was but I was part of though that cohort of like just really bad I mean I remember because I had this SNC background. I Was like I'm just gonna thrash people I'm gonna be the hardest trainer in the gym And I mean this was like a gym where you had like there's 24 trainers at this only fitness like how do you differentiate? Right, so I just differentiate grow beard for start while back then Jacko You would have loved this I had highlights in my hair and I had a I had a mullet which was highlighted purple We need that photo Play this is like epic Flavoured t-shirts, did you own our results of being aware of a mullet all of it numerous? I'm sure I'm assuming I even had a goose tip as a hooker Oh Man of the gods. Oh, we're getting lost. We're getting lost. So this is great. This is very good bring us back Yeah, yeah, so um, so anyway The picturing it yellow yellow tints purple and that's the color if I'm not mistaken That's the color of LA Fitness. Was it not yellow and purple? I think it was just purple. It was just purple. Yeah Yeah, I might issue a brand. I might I might have been on brand. Yeah, anyway, and then basically I Was just I was I was part of the problem, right? And then I started to realize that I I want to I want to do better for the people that I was serving, right? I wasn't getting the results outside of like the weight loss stuff But like in terms of like their movement their movement capacity of their pain like that's I don't have the solutions to the problems That was I was being faced. So I went down like all those Sports massage like courses and all that kind of stuff and that really sent me down Like an anatomy kind of rabbit hole that got really exciting for me And once I started to do some CPD then I couldn't stop to the point that then I grew like a very successful personal training business out of out of this facility Which then allowed me to go ahead and open up my first gym at the age of like 24 Open up a gym in London and I was like cool like this is my platform I'm gonna build this like, you know CrossFit was just becoming quite a cool thing then and You know in London and I wanted like this S&C type feel this CrossFit feel and I reckon I had like the answer to create this like really cool package And we still joke about it today how I was ahead of my time in terms of what I created it in this facility and The quality of coaching was amazing like the energy was good But one thing that that I noticed more so than ever was like despite the amount of time That I had spent as a student of the game getting my team to buy into that same level of Like just wanting to learn and then coach to that standard just never happened and it was getting like really frustrating and As like all these little challenges come and growing a business I mean Ollie and I spoke about this yesterday where it was like so many people Become busy personal trainers and then they're going to opening up a gym You couldn't be further away from the truth about thinking that you're good enough at opening up a gym There's so many things that you need to learn before you are quote-unquote ready So I opened up a gym thought if I bought if I bought if I built it there will come it wasn't the case I had all my PT clients But I still had to go and learn how to do this and let alone develop the staff to be able to be a coach at a good standard And as I started to develop this like syllabus Internally and this is now going a few years being a gym owner. I Only and I we played rugby together, so we had like a really good like mutual Respect for each other obviously a really good friendship. You've you've showered you've you know, you've showered together You see each other naked. I mean if you want to make friends. That's how that's how you do it, right? Like like it's like you could go to the pub or you should just shower together and then and then all is good Is that what we're doing next weekend gents? That's the only reason why you invited I've already got like a I think I'm sharp as Jacko before we just work I can I can't remember One of those moments so I kind of blocked it up on memory. So yeah, anyway, anyway, anyway, so So then we were all you know having this discussion. We were like You know how other trainers will sit and talk about other trainers and be like on wood. What is he doing? Look how shitty is look how bad that is and one day him and I were talking and we were like Rather than being like everyone else We we we need to try and like help these guys like we have a platform to be able to help them between Oli's reach and inspiration and my ability to like see potential and like help create courses and systems like We can do something here. We can help someone like help people Oli would often get Messages like how do I learn to do what you do like where do I start like I want like I'm inspired by you You know, so he was getting all these messages and I At that point my personal my personal training business was largely other personal trainers pay me a lot of money To not only coach them as athletes, but develop them as business owners So together we were like, do you know what? We can do something here So when we sat down we spoke about our values for Oli Him and his big driver was to be able to professionalize what this job role is Because for most people it's like it's like if you were to meet someone It let's use the pub meet someone at the pub and you go, I'm a personal trainer Like they might go, oh cute, you know, like oh you were like Jim get all day Like when are you gonna take something serious? You know when you're gonna do a real job, you know Which we can agree like that's not really the case. Do you know what I mean? But how could we change that so for Oli that was a really real important thing and for me it was kind of like If the standard is so poor Imagine if my mom finally wanted to take up fitness and she went to the local leisure center And she got access to what was and might still be the industry standard That wouldn't be a good experience for her The likelihood is that she'll probably get injured and not want to then therefore continue this this this endeavor of trying to Get healthy get strong. What have you? So together it was like we can we can raise the standards now that that that that Ideal that like novel line is easy to be said. It was like how can we do this? So our first iteration of this like education business was originally called the SEA the stronger coaches Academy Which in fact is when like we did we came up and we met you guys and all that kind of stuff And and we set up this really cool mentorship was like 12 weeks weekly lectures and all these kind of like all these really cool things but The first year that business Like the intake was insane like the amount of coaches that we got around the world I think in our first intake we hit like nine different countries or something crazy like that and it was like wow Like this is going to be amazing and then off to like a couple iterations We looked at it and we asked ourselves a question It was like is this actually going to make the impact that we want to make Because if you're only going to do a hundred odd coaches a year, what do you actually do it? You're not you barely making a dent if there's 20,000 pts in the industry like a hundred here A hundred dead doesn't really matter. Yeah, so we sat back and we we we basically Reidentified the entire business to to what it is today as the pfca the professional fitness coaches association And there were people amongst the team that that helped to facilitate this transition and and in our circle to be able to Move into where we are today And there's been is that then the same is it the same business gens who just like rebranded yourselves? Yeah Yeah, yeah, so then the big thing was we wanted to come out with a similar type course to that mentorship But one that met the industry where it's at which is this functional fitness world And we created this course called the functional fitness coach level one and it was to be able to bridge that gap between like Okay, you're a qualified personal trainer You're seeing all this like functional fitness stuff going on But you have no idea about the Applied biomechanics that's going on you have no idea about the principles behind how to program it how to periodize it how to assess movement whether or not people are ready for it or not etc etc and Even like from a corrective exercise standpoint like how do you integrate this? how does it become a bridge between like PT and actual performance or does this remain like a weird physio session that you're not qualified to do and And that's and that's what we went and created and like Then lockdown happened, right? So lockdown happened the first lockdown epidemic and it was like what are we gonna do now? And we're like okay. Well, we just put out like a six-week free course where it was like delivered by zoom And we were having hundreds hundreds of coaches tune in live for this and at the end of those six weeks what happened was The way that we strategize the launch the relaunch of the PFCA like the the launch of this business mentorship was meant to come at the end and the whole thing was like Seminars and and like all these different like activations and eventually get to this point But because of that free course at the end We had so many people yearning to have more time with us to be able to learn from us and and be meant By us so we ended up launching the mentorship which was in fact going to be the last part of the release and and that's kind of where the business had ended up growing because of the You know the pandemic So then we had this mentorship and then we had the FFC course Which when we brought it to market that that like really took off like a house on fire And it's really leveled up a huge cohort of of coaches and and it's something that we definitely like We're super proud of and we want to keep pushing that out And then we've got this like then all of a sudden we had loads of gym owners come to us who are inspired by what Ollie's been able to create and Want to have the same so then it's okay. Well hold on We're mentoring now personal trainers from the start of their career You've got personal trainers five years in lacking fulfillment. How do we help them? You've got young gym owners who are just about to go into gym ownership Or some of them have had gyms for years and what and can't find the success that they thought they were gonna get But because Ollie and I have been fortunate enough to be in every single sector where there is personal training in a commercial facility a Private studio being a gym owner staff development. You name it because we've got skin in the game We're able to to help these guys So to just bring it all back The PSCA is born out of being able to professionalize what it means to be a personal trainer and to help you build a business That you love that you proud of but helps you live your best life Whereas it's very easy to just help you make more money But at the cost of what relationships or what level of health so that's kind of in a long-winded way That's kind of where we are today Yeah, I think from a from the like it's interesting as you said that that the You were thinking you were gonna do the mentorship bit last almost, but actually people were Or as coaches seeing the value in going like That coach we've all done it like that coach is great I'm gonna you either I'm gonna use some stuff from them or even better still I'm gonna go and learn more from that person And I think that that as a that as a What the next question what I'm thinking about and is and this is this is actually to both of you not just to Jen So Tim as well like what what makes a good coach? Because that that's not that like little scenario there For me like one thing that makes a good coach is like the willingness to like want to to learn from others or To want to be mentored is like a is a great trait to make me a good coach I'm wanting to learn like that's gonna help me be be a good coach and this could be wider than just PT Just eat like coaching in general because this is one of the things that I see to sort of kick it off of like Coachings coaching coaching is Communication it's Understanding individuals but understanding group dynamics and being able to work within those things The thing that if someone's good at coaching if you give them enough of the information for them to understand it They could go out and a good coach who could go and coach anything so long as they know the materials that they're that they're delivery I happen to that Jen's has got probably more than one slide on this in one of his presentations So I was gonna let him go you go Jen's what I know you have seen the content around it I'm sure you have got slides on this. I was waiting for you to go I think do you know what I will wait until you both says your thing And I will look more intelligent by the addition you add a little bit of spice on top He's like he's like salt they have coating I think I think without sounding like Yeah, too generic I've rather just like kind of come at this is different angle so When I take Like consultation calls with coaches coming to me going I want to grow this I want to achieve this We need I need your help How can you know how can you and Olly help me grow this right? One of the first things that I notice and I look for is just like passion and communication skills So you're right like just just that ability goes a long way the people that can talk well. Oh My word like you see them grow to different levels Okay But I think the biggest thing is and I just use that word There's like the levels. There's levels to the ship and people don't Respect the levels right like in your first five years You just need to assume that it's like it's your apprenticeship years, right? And how can you expose yourself to as many sets and reps and people and communication styles and delivery styles and methods and programs and Mentals ships and courses. How can you just be this incredible apprentice? Very few people are willing to do that for long enough. I like I generally believe that's five to seven years It's not six weeks and like it's definitely not three months I think that's like one thing and then it's like once you are willing to just be that person but know that like From day one when like we talk about this in the pfca your level three certificate is your ticket to start your apprenticeship It's your ticket to start the apprenticeship. So now you have a license to go the problem is loads of people go Okay, I'm now qualified. I can charge 45 pound an hour for personal training. Thank you very much, right? like we deliver level three now because we felt that if We're really going to make a difference in the industry. We need to make it at the grassroots level so that the trainers that are coming into the industry have a better value system to go and truly help the people that they serve and Like if we talk about what makes a great coach, it's really strong values and principles It's knowing who you are and what's important to you It's knowing your boundaries, right? And then knowing your skill set and like where it starts and ends and to be able to go and help people The end of the day like what an amazing job I'm swatting flies away. What an amazing job we have To be able to help people, right? Like you have much more of a license to help people than a physio a doctor Anyone because people are willing to see you two three four times a week like Like wow, you know absolutely crazy. So it's like It's just it's just recognizing that at that like ground level Like you just need to come in at this a bit like, you know, the stone mason parable I mean, I definitely know Tim knows it. I feel like you would as well, Jaco You know where it's like the the traveler walks past the different stone masons Right and the one guy is like, oh, I'm chipping away these stones the next guys I've got this whole pile to do in the neck. I'm building a cathedral like as trainers like you're building like so many people's lives Right and it's like you're not just impacting your client if they go back and they've got better intentions and better systems But when they're going back into the household that now you impact their husband the kids You now change their lifestyle and what is like deemed good so that their kids kids All of a sudden it's a huge knock-on effect like that's that's the level of impact we get to have but train some trainers fail To see that right so then once you spend those five to seven years to like grow and Expose then you can start to become a leader of Of yourself and a leader of others where you're looking to now just reiterate and refine, right? So how can you develop your system the Jaco system the Tim system? Because then you've had enough exposure to go. I've tried this I failed that I've tried this I failed that this seems to work with this demographic But it only it takes so long to get there and then only after let's say ten years Are you then in a position of like? Like let's say mastery right and it's not because you're a master It's because now you feel like you have a refined method that you can go and now perhaps teach others or Give back to others in a little bit like I talk about it as fitness philanthropy Right, it's like your way to go and give back to the world Just because now you've done everything if you're a super successful personal trainer or gym owner You almost get to a point where like not there's not much more. You can do unless you go like crazy So now so it's like how can I impact more right and that's going to be fed largely by one big like underpinning thing about what makes a great coach it's like humility and curiosity Right like you guys are the probably that like if there's a value system we all share though We're super curious But how do you do that or why why do you think that way about that? Right, or I want to learn more about that because that seems interesting like that might answer a Question that I know I'm struggling with but I can't even articulate what this question is I'm willing to go down that route and I think that's in a nutshell a good coach or someone is super humble and Super curious to be able to find solutions to help more people very good That was good. I actually Yeah, I would be echoing a lot of what you've already said. I agree on all levels. I think there's just Curious if Tim's got anything else to offer I don't know like I think maybe I'll just I'll add some flavor I was some some some context from my own experience because I've been I've walked that path, right? So I've I've done my 14 years in essence C before I was an essence C coach I was a scuba diving instructor before I was a scuba diving instructor So taught disabled people to ski before I did that I was teaching rugby or coaching rugby at different levels and included in my under 12s men's or men's boys Rubik's Club, but they're like The coach is like to the other captain go and take the warm-up So I've studied in front of people coaching and instructing since I was 12 years old non-stop And that's when I now walk into room full of people and to jack at your point before like if you've got those skills If I know my subject I can probably coach anything but it comes to a point of where it's autonomous I don't get nervous talking in front of a room full of people You could literally go there's a room full of guys there next door now Every player's gone teach them session with zero prep time I'll go and deliver a half decent session because you've just you've put those reps in the game You've got that skin that you just go okay. I've done all of this before I'll walk into room I'll look around and identify the key individuals who are those people who I need to get on board to bring the rest That squad with me. What level are they out? How is that kind of general demeanor like that? All of that is like just subconscious information Which you're gathering because you spent so much time around people and this is when people like I reflect back on my own journey like People like scuba diving instructor for three years. Australians and Zanzibar. I tell people I was a professional beach bomb But I was actually like if you look at what you what you do in that environment and this is where I don't think coaches get enough Broad context, they don't they're not generalist enough I've got eight people who rock up on day one who I'm going to take underwater with underwater breathing equipment on some of them I'm not very confident in the water, but they want to see fish Like how do I get those guys like on board feeling safe and secure and ultimately they're paying me for an experience They want to have a good time So I need to entertain them as well at the same at the same point As well as getting across quite highly technical and potentially life Impacting information as to how you're going to go and do this thing properly and safely and I think that's where we've we've lost our way a Little bit because they made the barriers to entry into the fitness industry so low That you could literally get qualified in a week and become a personal trainer and know nothing about the complexity of human Of the human body of physiology let alone nutrition before you start going down those routes and lifestyle change behavior change all the things actually are Wrapped around that that role of somebody coming to you going I want you to take responsibility for my health and well-being is effectively what would we should be doing from a personal coach You can relate perspective So now when I hear people go up in two years, I think I go online I'm like you're at the right to go online like because online is even harder because you can't even then go and see that person You you'll make I make I do online coaching now, but I make judgments based on 25 years of Coaching that Subliminal things that you're picking up things I've seen before the way people talk to you and I think that's for me We're fine gonna wrap all of that into what makes a good coach like You've got it. It's it's accepting that we don't always have all the information So you don't have to go and find someone who's been 15 20 years in the industry You can be a good coach at 12 months in if you have some of the qualities that all as many of the qualities that gents has been talking about But it is that willingness to try to be humble to part with people to accept that you don't know everything that you might be wrong But you are you are informed enough to make safe decisions and and you can make effective decisions at quite an early stage So when I used to do coach mentor in I would have one of the boxes on our observation sheets when we were given a feedback Was was that session safe and effective for a year one coach? That's fine if it's safe and effective It's okay doesn't need to be whistles and bells and I think You that yeah, you then identify people who have got some of these characteristics But a badge on a t-shirt or a one-week certificate isn't enough To for people to actually have the authority to do this job properly. There's probably some stuff in there you Jen Do you want to bounce off? Yeah? Yeah? I mean you said a few words there that like I really want to pick up on I'll pin experience lead. I'll bring that like at the end and I think one thing If I'm if I put this in context to actually what goes on in the industry just to give you guys some insight as a like we now Have a license to be able to teach level two and level three right and in going through that journey Largely what we were trying to do is can we just create our own level to level three? I'm almost like scrap those words and just come up with what we believe is the actual course curriculum to give People the authority and then and the minimum skill set to actually have them go in and help people right that informed level to actually Facilitate this job Anyway turned out you can't right you have to follow set guidelines I won't go too deep into as to why but then if you think about what you're talking about Which is like the communication skills the soft skills the philosophy the movement models movement efficiency And so on and so on that is like even behavioral change motivational interviewing Those things are considered irrelevant. They are like not even on the list of like things that they need to learn what? So when we came out with our level three and like looked at this the iteration that we want to do if we're gonna come Up with like something that's gonna make a difference. We were like a how can we deliver a product? That meets the minimum guidelines as per what is required But then how can we bring across the values that we deem are most important? So like what we've been able to do is we've we have an online platform Where you go and you learn the stuff about like here's the heart and there is no even a humorous It's an upper arm. It's an upper arm a lot of the a lot of the like anatomy and physiology is like I Haven't done like I wasn't educated in this country, but it's like it's like a level biology, right? It's very simple But then what we've been able to do is add those consultation skills those motivational interviewing skills the movement assessment skills so that we can come up with a model That we deem exactly what you said is safe and effective. We even talk about an exercise library It's like hey think about all these exercises and we like do it like on zoom right it's like Enter 10 exercises for knee dominant unilateral pattern and you'll just see like all these things like pop up We like give them 30 seconds press enter and you just see like all these all these exercises come up And then we do this drill where we go, okay now if we were to take them all the way and I'll give us three right, so basically what we've been able to do is Most trainers and I mean this to like even like the five-year trainers, right? You'd be better off having a smaller exercise vocabulary That you understand at a much much deeper level that you can then go and coach and communicate effectively to your clients Build them to a level of autonomy That then you can go and get them strong at doing the what the thing rather than all this complexity and novelty Like we've literally brought it down to like we call it 21 and done like there's probably 21 exercises between your squat patterns your knee dominant Unilateral stuff your hip dominant unilateral stuff your upper body work your core work By the your carry stuff by the time you take the nose seven come up with three at each You're sitting around 21 exercises find a way in which you can dose appropriately develop them and Continuously assess whether or not it's being effective or not. That's it. That's it. It's simple, right? But then it comes back to Like you're trying to find complexity in a you know Well, that doesn't need to be complex from an exercise prescription point of view What do what is complex is the human right and getting them to buy into it? You just hit the nail on the head just bringing us all back to their experience It's like if you can't make this experience something that is Rewarding and challenging and make them want to come back and do it again. Then what are you doing? So like you might have like the technical coach is like so technically astute but has no personality much like a scuba diver Instructor is able to make this like really really cool, right? Like we need that or you've got this like clown There's like super fun and entertaining but has no technical prowess Like we need to like we need to agree that like a personal trainer a good coach is Someone who gets to bring both in and I love what you said earlier, Jaco Like you said personal trainer and anything coach of any sort like we can all agree There was probably that one rugby coach that had that had like both or there's probably that like swim instructor You had in school that had that or the cricket coach whatever there was someone who now you can look back and go I can totally see that even down to that teacher at school who had the perfect relationship of like Entertainment and and like education. That's them. That's the model, right? Yeah Yeah, well like on something that like from an experience the experience side of it was one thing I was gonna gonna touch on and What you're making me think there was just of it being there's two sides to experience there's the experience of Go and coach stuff and it just doesn't matter what it is Just go and get used to coaches have a build up those skills of communication of managing people in one-on-one Managing groups of people Whatever it is and like as Tim said about being confident in that I believe that the confidence in that comes with from one experience But to knowing your material if I asked him to go into that room of people and it's in and coach them on something He's never like done before like the piano He probably won't be as confident but knowing Tim We probably can't do quite well blagging like even just something to me that but you I mean it comes down to like if I if I know What I'm talking about I'm confident if I don't know what I'm talking about it ain't gonna go that well But then the other side of the experience is how much experience have you had of being coached? Because when you have been coached by lots of different coaches if you've been coached by really good coaches great You can take the things that you notice about them and go Why was that good in terms of my experience of being coached by them? Which elements of that resonate with me so that I could maybe add that to my repertoire But equally what about the crap coaches you've had or the bad coach you've had or the great coach What was the stuff that he did when it was like or they she did he whatever did that want right? And then you can start to use your experience of being coached to start to then mold your own coaching and the the thing that I'm quite when if I'm speaking to some people at the moment right like coaching mentoring that type of stuff of like There's a phrase that keeps coming up for me of like Finding your own voice in that like if you if I like something I like the way Jen's explains that or does this did it right? I then can't try and use your words to do it I've got to still find my way with it and that's then allows us to be confident to deliver I think that any time that we're not being true to ourselves is When we find it difficult to deliver our message, but we need to understand so then we're talking about like Understanding our own self and doing a little bit of light internal work But I definitely think that there's the experience of like just experience of being a coach But then the experience of being coached I am definitely when I'm at my when I'm at my best and when I'm coaching at my best I am Doing an iteration of all of the best coaches that I've ever been lucky enough to be coached by all teachers at school All these different types of things like sort of rolled into my version of what that might look like 100% Timbers, do you want to say something there? No, you don't I said this is gonna go deep. I know I'm like down I love what you said there. I think there's like There's so much to be said about understanding the virtue of being coached So much I think some of the best learnings I've had is The times where I've gone and hired Expert coaches paid for their programming or their coaching or whatever because it's through Doing that you see this the the new ones the like the application, right? like seminar is a great for like Relighting the fire, right like having that fire and like like Like I guess reigniting it But it's when you go and you get mentored or coached by these people that you you learn some incredible things One thing I will say about that exposure experience that you're talking about as well. There's a guy called Dr. Greg Rose. He's He's the head of the type list performance Institute I actually brought it up with Tim last week And he was sharing an anecdote about him him learning at like Cairo school, right and He's like going through year one and they're learning all this anatomy stuff And then he was like so when you start like touching people when you start learning out of crack and stuff and One of his like fellow one of his like fellow students was like well Oh, no, there's a massage class off to school at this time. Why don't you come? So he was like okay, so it turns up and basically there's like 50 people in this room and there's 25 chairs in a circle and basically 25 people sit down for a minute and Sorry 25 people sit down and then you stand behind and you have to start mass-ordering their necks And every minute you have to transition to the next person and the next person and this guy This this guy is like I've never mass-ordered anyone I don't know what I'm doing and his his his fellow student was like it doesn't matter just starts touching So he's like okay So he starts like starts touching and he's like he looks at him like I have no idea what I'm doing And then a minute buzz it's like move over like speed dating kind of thing So you aren't the next person so he's like he starts touching. He's like he's like what are we doing? He's like you'll see just wait next person goes to the next one all of a sudden It's like all that feels strange Because it's only by doing that you get to experience like what was good what was bad And he was like oh this next feels a little bit different to the last two. Oh shit. There's something wrong. Yeah, you know next Oh, wow, you're really tight on the right side all of a sudden by the end of by the end of those 25 minutes Feels like that was interesting that that gave me exposure that I didn't I didn't know about right? You can't read in a book Let me pull it only I Want to just get we took that thread of exposure and I want to talk about Something for people that listen maybe we've got people that are not coaches or ink or be in coached or We are I'm gonna phrase this one Our exposure to coaching in inverted commas is massive now based on the amount of attention We we give to social media and the internet So anybody can be a coach and has a platform to share their ideas and expertise I'm just keen and interested to get your thoughts around that gents of going like there is so many people Talking about different things and you know how passionate I am about principles over methods We see a lot of methods lots of things that people say you can do and for me like my perspective on this is I think people get confused because there's too much input and We'll just I'm not even gonna see that question up just talk to us about this kind of like the either the synergy or friction of This of this idea of working with somebody on some thing Versus this kind of plethora of information which we are getting bombarded with and how confusing that potentially can be for people And how do we navigate through it because what I know is like we're solely relying on what my the algorithm feeds Me is not an effective way to to master or learn or progress is in my opinion I think this is a great question. I don't want to I don't want to do this any injustice here, but think I think there's like two things right there's There's one where it's like If there's a if there's someone you're learning from that has come up with Quotes and quota method and let's assume that they are now therefore a master, right? So Jack-o you're learning all things breath from a man who's been going through it for a very very very very very long time He shot certainly has a method that he's come up with because of all this Exposure trying whatever right? Yeah, Tim you are now Delivering what you deem is your method based on all your experiences and all the rest of it I think as the person therefore receiving it It's important to recognize that like you do yourself an injustice by trying to Over-indulge information from multiple people without just doing one thing Ingesting it digesting it absorbing it then Utilizing that energy for long enough Almost to the point that like if over the next ten years you only learn from five people But over each two-year period you did the thing properly That would probably be better than trying to do multiple things at once and go nowhere It's a bit like that client who wants every single goal under the Sun But like do you know what if we just focus on strict chin-ups you might get a muscle up But if you want muscle up strict chin-ups hands and press ups and a human flag all at once you're just wasting time so it's like it's like one of those things where it's like It goes but this is very deep goes back to know yourself Know what's important to you what your values are? Know through those values. Are you able to stay authentic and coach appropriately to the audience that you have? the people that buy from you and through that once you start to see holes or Opportunities, let's say find someone in a position who has been there done that and created their own system method and Invest everything you can from energy from time from money that is appropriate and do the thing until you understand it and You like it or you get to the point where do you know what? I went down a rabbit hole I did it completely like all in but it wasn't worth my time Let's say this breath work stuff for my mouth breathing population is just not going to work But then at least you know it to the tenth degree so you can hold a good conversation That's a mean. That's what should be really exciting about being a coach Yeah, I think find finding out that something doesn't work Isn't a taller waste of time. It's not you found out something that doesn't work And I think that we often we see those types of things as like. Yeah, well, what if it doesn't work? So I'm I'm gonna invest the time and it's actually stopping Stopping thinking that like we're gonna find the right thing. It's like well probably the right the right thing might not Even exist but finding out loads of things that don't aren't the right thing actually push you in a direction to Something that might be able to be formulated into something that does actually work and like as Tim said about People sort of how easy is it to? Confuse scrolling through Instagram or other social media platforms and thinking you're seeing loads of different things and thinking you're Gaining information because you're seeing lots of different exercise selections or whatever But actually you're just confusing yourself with just far too much information and I had one of my favorite comments recently right for this little anecdote for this for the last week with someone commented on A post of mine said like I wasn't expecting to like this But it's really good. Well done. Keep it up or something. I was like compliment interesting. Yeah, so I said to him Oh, why did you why did I like I smile happy? I was like, oh, why didn't you think you're gonna like it? And he was like, oh come on mate. You'd like, you know, this is Instagram and Therefore everyone thinks that they found it like a new way to do like basically basically saying like most of stuff You see her name is actually BS like it was actually interesting that this actually worked and it was like, okay, that's that's Yeah, I thought that was I thought that was I thought that was interesting I think the same kind of like principles are talked about this longevity and commitment to a process and to understanding a system from a coaching perspective Also, there applies to a user perspective So I we've Jack and I spoke about this before and our encouragement around people now is like if you're gonna come into calisthenics Come in for a time don't come for a month and think you're gonna nail it come for a year And that's see where you are in a year and because our approach is very much around educational You might may or may not leave with a handstand or a human flag after a year But I promise you you will come in and you will learn more about training in the process Which you can then go and apply into whatever endeavor it is or or kind of form that you want to But I think that's that's where I'm kind of see the the issue where people don't make the progress that they want It's because they they don't give these things long enough because there's so many people now offering different packages and programs It's very easy to hop around towards whatever kind of like is dressed up fancily within a marketing package on Social and go all that looks good I'm gonna go and do that for a bit and then you're gonna see this other apple car I'm gonna go and jump on that apple cart for a while and you get a whole lot of nothing So I just think like it's we this this in this culture that we have a little bit where we've been drawn towards instant results We'd be far better off as both learners and Learnies if we can call it that and students is probably actually the proper word and Coaches and students trainees But coaches like commit to your craft in the long term and commit to understanding your craft and it's gonna take 10 years It takes 10 years to get 10 years experience and within that that's not one hour a week That's like immersive 10 years to get 10 years experience And if you are if you are a trainer looking to work with a coach give that coach time like give that system time So you understand it because you can't Get you can't really kind of squeeze a juice out of something and fully understand it and get the benefits of it In two or three months Calisthenics is hard right give it a year and see what you see where you are in a year because you've got many more years You can go and do something else But at least commit to something for a meaningful amount of time Which means you actually give yourself a gift of an opportunity to be successful And I love that and I think I think what the big thing there is like In that in that commitment you need to identify as being someone who does calisthenics It's not just like I'm going to try this kind of settings thing. It's like no no, I'm I'm someone who does calisthenics Much like I am a coach who like I am a student right? I am an apprentice like like identify as that so that you're not trying to have these like weird moments of inconsistency and just like Like moments of intensity and then you back off It just needs to be elegant and consistent and like part of who you are because if that is an identity That you want to adopt it becomes beautiful. It becomes like This incredible journey like I always talk about as personal trainers You get to live this like this weird entrepreneurial life, right? You get to read the self-help books You get to listen to the podcast you get to have the morning routine Most people don't like they don't get that kind of exposure like if I think of my friends out of corporate jobs They're not thinking about self-development. They're just thinking about like how long do I have to do this role until? I get my promotion, right? And that's it. All right, do I do I get my 28 days holiday? Whereas we get to like go down this really weird self-development like hippie vibe and it's amazing It's so cool. Like how privileged are we? We could probably do another hour on this but we probably we need to maybe wrap it because we are 60 minutes in The commute for some people to work listening to this would have finished some time ago So there's still Santa Carla gonna do a two-by-two a two-parter, but Jen's thanks so much for coming on I One thing I love about you is you're just passion for coaching and the mastery of the craft and I think that is like That is where we need people to be in the industry just a championing How professional it is and what it takes to actually do this thing well because it is not something that you just go I'm gonna go and be a PT and It is like it's a hard job And it's not because that the environment in the context is difficult the skills that you got to develop and and grow take time But as you say you if you're passionate about it, and you love it You can have a massive impact on people's lives So just keep shouting and then from the from the from the mountains may and will support you all the way Yeah, yeah, I got bumped up for you as well your Your authenticity Just comes through like it's just it's straight up. There's no there's no front There's no BS It's like you can you can tell by the way that you deliver it that that is and hence why Hence why you do what you're doing because you just want to you just want to do it and I think it's I think you bring out something there that like on Surface level people don't people don't do people don't see or people don't know People didn't even realize about maybe themselves the opportunity that lays in front of them So I hope that people will be inspired by the conversation two things gents. We've got to ask one Where can people find you to? Promise you're gonna send us a picture of that mullet That needs to go that doesn't sure that needs to be the the post for the social feed jacket That's his profile picture. I've got a picture of me with a raggy ball doing that doing that thing. So the goose step I don't know if you can see the mother where's my camera for like Made gas for like five meters so Guys thank you so much for having me if you wanted to find me you'd find me on coach under scroll Jens J E and Z You can also find me and myself and My business partner Olly on the dot pfca doc on Instagram as well So that's our coaching business where we educate and mentor coaches And then in terms of the mullet. Yes, of course Your time and everything you guys are legends and I appreciate your time So massive thank you to gents for coming on the shows and coaching wisdom You can tell how passionate this guy is about coaching and I know that from a personal level as well Because whenever I have a conversation with gents He can't help but coach me in some way which I appreciate when people are You've got people in your circle that are investing in you and trying to help you and see in the blind spots that you have and Making you aware of them in a skillful way is a really important So go and find more good coaches and people who are going to build you up in your life Yeah, we we really hope that whether you are a coach yourself or whether you're being coached and probably You fall you fall into one of those two categories You're either or hopefully both you you spend some time coaching and you spend some time being coached and hopefully that That conversation with jens has highlighted some things for that you can help to carry on either motivate yourself or helping to Make a commitment to your Ongoing development as as an individual as well as being there as a coach potentially Yeah, perfect and that is the one kind of take home from me is make a commitment whether you're a coach yourself commit to what you're doing If you're being coached commit to what you're to what the coach is trying to teach you So I hope that has been useful and interesting. Please feel free to go to your listening platform and give us a review the podcasts It's not the itunes anymore is it our podcast and itunes is separate, so I don't know where to send people What is it not podcast on itunes? Oh, I think so. Yeah, as in Apple podcast is a thing It's all complicated. Anyway, we find your way around give us a little review ask send any questions in as well We ask for this for a few weeks We've taken a bit of a break from asking you to do things because we had quite a few deep podcasts We're now in a position to ask for you to do things again So give us a review send us some questions We might like to do a 20 minute kind of quick hit out on answering your questions and queries We like those podcasts So send them into as it's David at school of calisthenics.com or Tim at school of calisthenics.com And we will get to those and maybe do a special podcast just for your question