 My name is Cynthia Coupé and I am presenting on neurodiversity in the workplace. Hidden differences, how to be inclusive when you don't know. So I kind of want to get, have it be more of a conversation than me just talking at you. So I'm curious how many of you are familiar with the term neurodiversity or neurodivergent. All right, all of you are kind of, some of you more than others. Great. So neurodiversity is really the term that describes everybody's brain, right? Each brain is diverse. It's like a thumbprint. Everybody has their own unique thumbprint. We all have our own unique brain. The term neurodivergent refers to things like autism, ADHD, dyslexia, anxiety, tick disorders. There's a bunch of different things that can fall under the term neurodivergent. It's not a, there's no classic definition for it. It's just a term that was coined in 1998 by a woman named Judy Singer who does a lot of autism work. But it's come to most classically mean these different neurodivergent conditions. It is about 30 to 40% of the population is, is guesstimated to be neurodivergent. We don't really know because it's a hidden difference and a lot of people aren't identified. A lot of us don't know that we're neurodivergent. How many of you in the audience know somebody who is neurodivergent? Yeah. How many of you, how many of you are managers or any of you guys managers? Okay, great. Do you have people in your workplace that you know are neurodivergent? That you think are? Like probably. That's pretty, I mean, that's pretty common. We'll go into that some too. So there was a research poll done in England in London and they, and it was actually specifically for their tech force. And they found that 40% of people didn't want to share that they were neurodivergent, which like it's like surprising and not surprising at the same time, I think. Why don't people want to share? Well, it's hidden. I think there's a lot of stigma still that we're breaking past. A lot of us don't know. I, I'm not, I have a learning disability. So I fall under the term neurodivergent because of that. But I didn't really think that I had autism or ADHD until my daughter got diagnosed at 10 years old. And I went through that process and I was like, no wonder I missed it. She's just like I am. So, but she has some stronger presentations. So they were more obvious. Also it's later in, you know, diagnostic time. So people, so, so it's just become more popular to be able to diagnose people. So a lot of times people might have gotten to be, how old was I when that happened? 45. I had no idea. I mean, I'm a speech language pathologist. I've done this work for 20 plus years. I've worked with people that were autistic for 30 plus years. And I missed it because what we're taught that means what we are, you know, what we think it means is something different than it, than it actually does. So that's kind of my platform is like, let's break that down and have a real conversation about what that means, what that means to be that person and what that means to have people in the workplace like that too. So, so what I kind of wanted to just to get if you guys are willing to do this with me, what do you think could be some negative effects for a person that is neurodivergent in the workplace if there aren't accommodations for them? It's okay if you don't know too, but I'll wait a little bit. Yes. Yeah. A lot of communication problems, right? A lot of times people that are neurodivergent communicate differently, whether that means that we take things really literally. We don't want to make eye contact. We talk rapidly. Maybe our thoughts aren't linear. We're kind of all over the place. We misunderstand things. Maybe we ask questions inappropriately. I mean, there's a lot, you know, inappropriately. Like there's a lot of social cues that that we might miss. Yeah. Communication is definitely one of them. I'll go through the list. I have unemployment. People that are neurodivergent are highly, highly unemployed and underemployed. So sometimes they have a job, but it doesn't really fit their true abilities. So, you know, I know a lot of people, they're younger, but, you know, they work at the grocery store because they can get a job there, but they have far more skills than that. It's just the grocery stores have figured out how to like support somebody that has autism. The percentage of people that are unemployed, I think, that are autistic is it's like up to 85%, which is staggering. But also if you think about autism, there's a very big spectrum, right? So there are some people that are nonverbal. They don't talk. They, you know, they look like what we might classically think somebody that's autistic looks like. And then there are people like me who don't seem like we're autistic, but it all falls under the same diagnosis. So when I think of 85%, I think it's probably mostly the people that have autism that would need a lot of supports in the workforce. Depression, not surprising, right? If we're not being seen for our abilities, we're not really having a job or a life that we would like to be living, that can cause depression. It doesn't mean that people that are autistic or neurodivergent are more likely to have depression. It's just that the lifestyle is more likely, you know, what happens as a result can lead to depression. I think it's 30% of people that are neurodivergent tend to be, or three times more depression in people that are neurodivergent. Suicide, of course, is also higher. Again, unemployment, depression, suicide, burnout. This happens a lot in the workplace. We get a job, we're really good at it, so we're given a lot of extra work. And also, sometimes our jobs fall into our special areas of interest, and so we do them until we burn out. We're seen in less as in the workforce. So maybe we're not included in things because it looks like we don't understand or we don't care. And this is not just workplace, too. It's community in general, friendships even. Our communication styles, like you were saying, they're different. So that can lead to some negative effects. We don't have friend groups as easily. We're not promoted in jobs. We're not given raises. There's quiet quitting. And then othering. That's when it's like, oh, well, I'm not this way, but you are. So that can happen a lot, too. Like, oh, I understand that for you, but not for me. So when we aren't supported in an environment, these are all things that can happen. So that seems super tragic, right? Like, oh, God, this is hopeless. So what do we do about that? Well, luckily there's a lot of research that's coming out. There's a lot of changes that are being made about what helps. It's all very new, though. It's like, I think the groups that have been formed that are looking at this are only about four or five years old. So it's still in its infancy stages. There's a lot of really great stuff that's being done to help people that are neurodivergent, that are obviously neurodivergent anyway, have jobs. There's partnerships that are happening. There's a bunch of organizations where you can say, hey, I'm a tech company, or I'm a whatever kind of company I am. I'm looking for employees, and then they work with people who are neurodivergent, and they'll match jobs, and then they'll offer support through all the way through. So some things that we're also seeing that work in jobs are work buddies. So setting up cohorts. So you have somebody who has been working there a while, or maybe they're neurotypical, and you partner them with somebody who's neurodivergent or has special needs or accommodations. Active recruitment, looking at how we're actively getting people into the workforce. Lean-in circles are another thing that's being done. That's groups that are getting together and talking, and then trained coaches. So coaches like myself that would come in and talk with the managers or the organization and get more information. So really, I mean, so I talk about this a lot. What we can't do is really create a system. There's no way to say, hey, here's the five things that you need to do to support your neurodivergent employees. We know that there are some things that we can do. We know that we change hiring practices. That's where a lot of people are missed because when we're hiring, the way that a typical job interview or even a typical job application are don't support the needs of somebody who's neurodivergent. Is anybody familiar with that, like changing hiring practices or that hiring practices are difficult for people that are neurodivergent? Speak to that if you can. Sure. Open Source is a very challenging environment for someone who is grant-friendly. The open source community is not welcoming to you and you feel like you're getting shut out. Then that's not on your resume. And then when you come to us, it creates that kind of filtering out. Sure. So just for the video. So at my company, we value open source. We value people who have open source experience, especially in engineering, and because if you look at the Linux Foundation stats on this, and it's not just with folks who are neurodivergent, but especially for really anyone who's not white cisgender male, you find that people don't feel welcome and they get pushed out. And so it's a challenge then in the hiring practices where when someone goes through the engineering interviews and we look at the resumes, all things being equal to the nature of where I work, that the person with the open source experience gets the edge. And it's a real challenge to try and adjust that so that we can be more welcoming of someone who either was an open source and felt pushed out or someone who didn't even feel welcomed in in the first place. Right. Yeah, absolutely. So changing what we're looking for and changing how we accept that too, right? Yeah, that's a big deal for sure. After you have applicants, which is always a struggle to find good applicants, I'd be curious to know if you have thoughts on how to handle the interviewing and selection process in a way that isn't unintentionally excluding anybody. Something that I try to do is have multiple phases of the interviewing process that are different in form. So there's some email conversation, there's a quick phone call, maybe a Zoom with a couple team members, there's a written aspect to it so that if somebody kind of seems to fall flat and one of those things, maybe the other area will reveal some strengths. Yeah, absolutely. And that's really good actually. So looking at different ways so that you can see what that person is like in different environments is really important. Something else that's also really important is a lot of times interviews are questions towards a person that they don't know what those questions are and that's typically really difficult for somebody who's neurodivergent. I mean, depends on a lot of things, but it's difficult because one, statistically, and I know this from my own experience too, something that we're not always good at is selling ourselves, talking ourselves up. We don't see our strengths in the same way that somebody else does. Also, taking things literally or having to answer questions on the spot can really shut us down and be difficult. So changing that style, where either you're giving the interview questions beforehand so the person knows what it is that they can expect or you're letting them know something about what the process is going to look like because that can create a lot of anxiety too. Also, we take things very literally. I had this interview not that long ago, actually. Luckily, I got hired for the job, but I was interviewing with to do a... I was going to lead a panel for the mainframe industry and they interviewed me and I didn't realize that it was going to be an interview. They had told me it was just like a discussion. We were just going to talk and they were going to learn a little bit about me and it very clearly turned into this interview and they were asking me all these questions and I was like, they're simple questions. Tell me about yourself. Then they're like, well, what do you know about the mainframe? I froze and I was like, oh my God, I think the project that they're talking about... I don't have a tech background. I'm like, I think the project they're talking about is called the mainframe project, but are they asking me that or are they asking me what a mainframe computer is? Do I know what a mainframe computer is? I think it's the brains of the community. I'm thinking of all these things. I'm just like, well, my brother's in tech. He could tell me if I needed to know and they're like, okay. I'm just like, oh God, that was so embarrassing. I told my daughter and she's like, oh, mama, that wasn't good. I'm like, yeah, it really wasn't very good. You're right. But luckily they stopped, passed that, hired me anyway. Had I known those questions beforehand, I could have asked clarifying questions in response. Oh, hey, you asked me about the mainframe. Did you want this? What exactly did you mean? Or I would at least be prepared to answer it. I knew all the answers. I just froze in that moment. My head was going a million miles an hour and I just kind of shut down. And I think also we're working... I mean, it can appear surprising. These places where we're hit up against a wall is surprising for us, but it's also surprising for the people we're working with because you were just there, everything made sense, and now you're somewhere else. What happened? So anyhow, changing hiring practice, changing the way that we're hiring, changing the way that we're recruiting also is really important. Something else that some companies are doing, I was reading about recently, is during the hiring process, they kind of have the person shadow the job for a week or for a certain period of time so that they can make sure, not only are they a good fit for you, but do we feel comfortable in that job environment too because it's just as important for us that we feel good as it is for you. So I think that's a brilliant strategy really. Then you might have time to see more information too. Something else, yesterday I gave a presentation on the SDDI reboot, the employee working groups that I'm facilitating with those also, but somebody was talking about being able to interview people differently in the way that you can give them the questions so that they can ask those ahead of time and also letting them ask you questions. So there's a lot of little things that can be done to change and recruitment again too, partnering with universities, partnering even with high schools, letting more people come in and observe can be helpful too. Of course accommodating employees is a really big one also. I don't know if you guys know of any accommodations that you offer employees or what that might mean, but if anybody does, feel free to share. You'll need the mic again too, sorry. Have you found for neurodivergent employees that remote work is a net benefit or are there any trade-offs to the employees growth, especially I'm thinking for someone who's new and starting out in their career. So I feel like what I've seen and what I've heard is that it is actually a benefit to be able to have that flexibility. Whether that means that you're choosing your schedule some or you're choosing the hours of day that you're working or you're choosing if you're coming into the office versus being online. A lot of people who are... I mean everybody, right? It kind of applies to all of us, but I feel like when we're at our best we're going to do our best and so if we're able to sort of have some flexibility with that, oh hey, come in whenever you want, work whatever hours you want, but if there was something that felt like agency and choice with that, then it does seem to be more productive for sure. Yeah. And that's one of the blessings too that we've kind of got to play around with during COVID is what works. I think we've all seen how some things work a lot better and some things don't, but being able to have choice between seems very helpful. Any other employee accommodations you guys can think about? So some that are pretty classic are offering environments that have the ability to have reduced noise or reduced visual input or, you know, a quiet space to work because a lot of times people who are neurodivergent get overwhelmed by sensory. So sights, sounds, sometimes smells, right, there are certain times offices are like this is a scent-free zone like don't wear any perfume because it is a real thing. It can bother people. So those are some fairly typical employee accommodations. Well, I'll get into this in a minute. Training managers, of course, is also really important because if you're managing people that are neurodivergent, whether or not you know that they are, you're going to have, I would say, at least 30% of your workforce is probably neurodivergent. Whether or not they know it and I honestly don't think that we need to know it. The goal is to create an environment where people are comfortable being themselves, no matter who they are. We don't need to know. And people don't need to disclose that to us. It's helpful, of course, but again, it's the whole environment change. We're asking to change an entire system. We're really talking about changing an environment, which doesn't happen like I said earlier. I wish I could give you five rules, but I can't because we're dealing with people and everybody is different and every manager is different and every work environment is different. So while we know that changing hiring practices and accommodating employees and training managers and working on different communication strategies work, that's going to look different in every environment. So it really takes finessing and facilitating and being open to change and then it's almost like a bottom-up approach. Listening to what do your employees want. How can you have those conversations? How can you have those circles or the support networks feeling comfortable? A lot of times it takes somebody who is vulnerable enough or outspoken enough to say, hey, this is me. These are my needs. This is what that looks like for me. And I think by the time we're adults, a lot of us do know what our needs are, whether or not we're neurodivergent. We're like, well, I know that I work best in a quiet environment. So that was something I was going to go back to with the accommodating employees or even during the interview process is like asking people. So what works best for you? Or I had a manager yesterday how they had an employee that was performing fine and then work got really stressful and they kind of had a meltdown. They just sort of shut down. And the manager was like, I didn't know what to do because I didn't know this would happen to them. And I didn't want to be inappropriate, but I wanted to know if I could help them or call somebody or and I do, I know a lot of other managers that I've worked with, they have employees who are neurodivergent and they come in with their support system and their support system and sometimes they're family. Like sometimes mom is calling the manager every week and checking in on their kid which might seem really weird, but that's what's worked for them. So finding information like that out can be helpful in the process also. Again, obviously it's sensitive information, people don't have to disclose but being open to, hey, are there any special accommodations that you have or I have employees that this happens to them. That can be helpful too. Communication strategies, again, I think knowing different ways to communicate, not taking things personally can be very important. You see somebody that's doing something different, okay, they're not looking at you, well we might have judgments about that but maybe we can ask why. Well, why might that be? What can I do differently or are they answering the question anyway? What we really want to do in our work spaces is to create a culture of communication where everybody feels free that they can communicate what they need. It's inclusive and they're accepted. That's the goal, but again, it's going to look different in every place that we are based on all of the things, right, based on the people. We're talking about working with people, so there's no blanket approach except for to start being more inclusive, to change some of the hiring practices, to change the interviewing process, to build in groups of people that would be allies or buddies with your workforce and then to create a culture where it feels comfortable being able to talk about yourself and ask for your needs too. I think that we need to focus on ability, not disability. I think we're more the same than we are different and that's the opportunity here is to start talking about how we are the same or how our differences actually can unite us because we probably all can relate to being in an environment that felt overwhelming. What do we need to do with that? Maybe we can have some compassion or some understanding for the people that we're working with that have maybe more of a need in that area. So focusing on the why. Why is this happening? What can I do to support it? And then learning styles. I think learning styles is a big one too. Some people are visual learners, some people are auditory learners, some people are kinesthetic learners. Have any of you guys played the game Risk? It's like a lot of rules if you read through them. I haven't played for a really long time and I was playing the other night and so I had to go over the rules and read them and I was like, I'm a visual learner, but the rules weren't making any sense. So then somebody was like, I'll read them and I was like, this really doesn't make any sense. So then we started having to just play the game and I was like, oh, I get it now. But if somebody wasn't sensitive in that way, even in the work environment, I just told Johnny what to do and he couldn't figure it out. What's wrong? I gave them the written directions, they're kinesthetic learners, maybe they need to be shown. So thinking about different ways that we can adjust so that people can understand what we're talking about. Any questions? There's so much to say on this subject I could go on forever, but... In terms of the recruiting side of things, is there any advice or best practices on I don't know, in a job posting, is there something you should say in there about neurodivergent applicants welcome to apply? Absolutely, I think that always feels welcoming. In some ways, it's helpful to start talking about the elephant in the room. And I think that by doing that, it allows people to not have to hide. So if you're like, hey, we're welcome neurodivergent applicants. A neurodivergent applicant, if I read that, I'd be like, wow, that's so cool. Then it would give me an opportunity to even ask you, so what does that mean to you? Do you accommodate people like me? Rather than feeling like I have to hide it or being like, oh, by the way, I'm neurodivergent. It just gives that freedom. I was thinking about your earlier comment about asking people if they need any accommodations, which seems obvious for an existing employee. I'm a little, I'm not sure how you would do that in the context of interviewing an applicant because that also sounds like I'm fishing for potentially confidential whatever medical information. Yeah, I know. That could be very, I don't know, very uncomfortable for somebody to ask. I don't know how you... Well, I mean, I don't have a perfect answer for this. I mean, I know that some hiring like how you can check if you're male, female, what's your race or ethnicity, you can also do that with neurodiversity, right? Are you neurodivergent or do you have a disability? Which is also kind of an awkward question because I personally don't view it as a disability, it's a different ability, it's not a disability, but that's a whole other... As the hiring manager, I suppose you could just as part of the process just say, by the way, we do recognize and offer and blah, blah, blah. If you need something... Exactly, you can kind of let it be known. I know it's one of these things to travel, it's a big topic, right? And there's not... Again, we don't know the right way to do it, but a lot of it is just starting with creating an environment where it's comfortable enough to disclose. And sometimes that takes one employee that's like, hey, I'm going to talk about myself. I'm going to be outspoken. I know a man who is in the main industry and that's what he started doing. He was 50-something when he got diagnosed with autism. And he's like, oh, interesting. And then being the person that he is, he started talking about it more with his manager and with another employee that he was very comfortable with. And as a result now, his organization has lean-in circles where they meet regularly. And it's interesting because the more that happens, first, some people join and they're like, okay, well, we'll listen to what this means. And then it kind of catches on. And then his job is changing a lot. He feels more comfortable there. He has more friends. So sometimes it's just taking that initial risk of being open. Even in that way of like, hey, we're open to this kind of thing. So any other questions? Yeah. So I'm an open source project maintainer. What I would like to ask you is, do you have any advice for folks who are maintaining projects or trying to drive managing open source communities in terms of having the door open for folks who are neurodivergent when, unlike a workplace where we only, we are, a lot of us are fully remote or we're only interacting through GitHub or other source system or through Zoom calls and there's different companies there's the only thing that might control or guardrail our behavior is a code of conduct. So is there any kind of advice that you might have for projects that want to be opening and have that door there so that people can come in? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think, again, like I think because we're dealing with people, the best way to do that is to start with ourselves, you know, I mean, which doesn't mean we have to be like you know, it's like so how do I again, like calling the elephant in the room so whether we're like, you know, I just learned recently that probably half of us are neurodivergent and I don't know exactly what that means but like, I know that sometimes I prefer to have my camera off or I move around a lot when I'm in front of the camera so if you guys can be patient with me or is there anything like has this been difficult for any of you or can, you know, like trying to call it out in a comfortable way I think is the, you know, it's not it's not a perfect blanket solution but I think that whatever we can do to show that we're comfortable talking about that whether or not that's like, hey, I learned this new thing, does this apply to any of you? Or can I make this better for any of you? Sometimes, you know, and you might get answers that are, you might not get any answers but at least we're trying and you know, being open about having those conversations I think is what is important, you know? Yeah. Is this on? Oh, it is on? Kind of on that note I feel like I've attempted to try to encourage more like anonymous surveys as a way to to kind of kick off those conversations of just learning how people identify and areas that may or may not be represented in the space and then take that to a conversation or a meetup but I've been facing some challenge doing that by privacy concerns doing it either it eat both as a company or doing it as part of the community and I've faced pushback on both sides companies don't want to collect that information because it's highly sensitive and personal and these aren't customers so we don't have an agreement with them we don't have a contract we don't have so there's a lot more guardrails on being able to do it as a company so when I tried to support it as part of a community I've also had issues where the Code of Conduct Committee or the steering committee wasn't comfortable having those types of questions be put into their contributor survey so I feel like what I've struggled with is sometimes it can be really hard to speak up in those settings if you don't know you're not the only one I feel like that's a hard barrier so I've been trying to encourage these types of things to create more visibility but then facing those challenges where nobody wants the liability of having that data I'm just kind of curious how you seeing folks approach that so some ways that I've seen people approach that is again kind of gently starting some of those conversations so I mean even it was part of a main frame project where they were having different panel discussions but it was like I was leading a panel discussion on neurodiversity and so they found actually it was really interesting because their goal was to find people that were in the main frame industry that were willing to talk about it and I was interviewing them but we only ended up with one person one person that was willing to talk about it then we had there are three people but it was like I was talking about it from my side this man that works for the main frame industry was talking about it from his side and then there was the son of somebody who used to work for the main frame industry who talked was talking and then there was a woman who works for a company that like does job matching so she like finds people that are neurodivergent and then supports them in the workplace or that's what her company does and so so that was fascinating to me because it was too vulnerable it was too raw for people to come forward but as a result of that conversation that people watched and came to so many people were like oh my gosh I can talk about this for myself now I see what that means right and so that then that created like a bigger understanding and a bigger you know more conversations like that and so I think that you know that's also like how one of those lean-in circles had started initially was that to keep that conversation going then they had these regular meetings and sometimes it's I mean this individual he's like well I guess I'm the only outspoken one but now there's other people in the industry that have started to step up and speak so sometimes it's just literally having those conversations for people to listen to and it doesn't seem like anybody's maybe listening or there's you know real buy-in you don't really know what's happening but it's doing something I mean it's a lot there's so much stigma there's so much stigma about it right like being able to see ourselves that way or being able to say that we're like that because we don't want to be seen as you know lesser than or different but on the same token like it creates more like it creates better inclusivity you know like we're happier people and our workforces are stronger when we're you know acknowledge it and have people that are neurodivergent in the workforce too so sometimes it's just gentle things like that you know that are very unassuming and kind of informative that can start the conversation Any tips or recommendations on how to deal with colleagues or managers when they're being neurodiversity non-inclusive like I think the example the risk example is perfect and applies to me if you just keep the rule set this is ridiculous nobody understands it or some people don't not showing them how the game is played they click right away and the same has happened to me and others on the workplace just give me the rule set nobody understands anything how do I tell a colleague stop doing this you're being neurodiversity non-inclusive I mean I guess first question is do you know are there any like written in accommodations or do you know if if HR has you know like is HR supposed to be neurodivergent friendly I guess very good question very likely not I think it's a very new thing that I'm learning a lot here about I'm on the diversity committee on my company we talk a lot about belonging and inclusion on all the other minorities but not really neurodivergent which is ridiculous so I'm going to take a little bird walk I will answer your question but like the thing that's so fascinating to me neurodivergency neurodivergency is the one thing that's like across all people like it's equal it's not more in men, it's not more in women it's not more in white people, it's not more in people of color it's equal I mean the statistics might not show that because of the way that our testing has been done it shows that it's mostly white males but that's not actually true so it's everywhere it's equally everywhere so like if we can figure out how to accommodate people that are neurodivergent then we've got like we're accommodating everybody you know it's such a great thing wow I could go on a long bird walk but I won't I'll come back so that's a difficult question to answer because a lot of it depends on the manager some managers naturally get it maybe they have kids that are neurodivergent maybe they have a partner that is maybe they are themselves or they're just naturally open to doing things differently so if it is that type of manager great then you could probably be like hey I've noticed this thing I always feel like for me when I'm approaching somebody that you know like I basically have to tell them you're doing this wrong I always come from me hey you know I noticed this thing for me I noticed that I have such an easier time understanding it when it's shown to me I'm wondering if you could do that more I know that that's also true for Jacob you know I was telling him something that was so weird the other day I gave him the instructions and I thought he didn't get it and then he did it I showed him and he got it sometimes that where it's sort of like you're putting the heat on yourself in a way sometimes that can help somebody so they don't feel like you need to do this different but again this is such a new idea in so many ways for the industry and it is I feel like unfair to expect that all managers are going to be able to get it not all teachers can teach all people not all managers can manage all people so I think that like it needs to be restructured completely or at least have like a neurodivergent manager support that like helps anyhow but that's usually how I approach that or if there's somebody else that maybe has a better in with the manager that is like an ally for you in the workforce or you know something like that and then depending like on again you know on what the manager's like learning style is or what their interest area is sometimes people like to read sometimes it's sharing an article with them you know about like hey here's an article for you or here's a TED talk that I watched that was really interesting or something that would help expand their idea of learning styles or you know information it's the best I can offer you're welcome there's a can you I'm concerned about bottlenecks you know like it is very much like what this gentleman was just saying you know why should this be left to a manager you know this is nuts absolutely like so like this has to I hate to use top down but this this has to be recognized as having value like at the highest levels of the organization we'll talk about hierarchy another time but and then people need to kind of have the resources that they need to be able to tap into this as and when necessary yeah right so it's just like oh yeah we've got this issue I don't have any experience with this where do I go right some help with this there may or may not be somebody's experiences yourself on the team as opposed to just be like mumble mumble I guess we can't deal with it shove it under the carpet yeah absolutely I agree so there is a project that I'm I mean hopefully it's going to go the direction we want to but I mean I say this because it's a volunteer run at this point right so when things are all volunteer run like people run out of time and then the project never gets done so it's the SDDI reboot for employee working groups so we have one that's neurodivergent neurodivergent then we have one that's talent pipeline and then we have one that's that's DEIA so diversity equity inclusion and action and so what we're trying to do is for the tech industry find what the best practices are like everywhere not just for tech but like that then can be employed what's working what's not working and how can we become a resource hub like can we get information online so if you know a manager is like whoa hey or an employee even right like I need help on this information and then you know have like an online resource directory for that so that's what we want to do right now we're at the very beginning stages and we've basically we're starting a questionnaire so we can find out more about our practices that are going on we have like statistics on who it is that's in the workforce and we know kind of some things that are being done but we're looking into industry standards and then also just you know what's working and what's not working for different employees so hopefully we'll have that in like a year yeah what I meant more I mean that's all that sounds very promising and thank you for working on that I'm thinking like more of an incident incident response situation like this stuff is hitting the fan yes people are being affected now we all know the impact of this yeah so how does triage occur in a way that it's not like I'm not all warm and fuzzy not interested you know as a person like this is actually affecting one of our greatest contributors yeah we need to shore up some resources and make sure this person feels supported even in an interim state just saying yeah this is absolutely an issue of significance we are going to allocate resources to this you will not be pushed aside yeah there's even that interim state where you go out and hunt down these resources right you recognize that this is in fact an issue that is not to be pushed aside yeah yeah I mean I don't have a perfect answer for that I wish that I did because again it takes buying right so it's either going to come bottom up because the employees are like I have to be heard or it can come top down I mean it should eventually be top down anyway right it should be like you said this is important these are affecting our employees but it doesn't always start that way I mean and you know so in term there are resources out there but it has to have you know awareness of the managers and HR and where to go and what kind of information and how to support but they need to understand that it really matters so it's but I would wonder like what is your experience been with regards to kind of regular training like some people when they think about that oh we have to go to mandatory diversity training right versus like no no here's like why this actually matters like whether or not you can articulate that to your target audience is not the issue the issue is like this matters to us as a company as a culture if you're here this should matter to you yeah absolutely I mean I think it's important I think it's a good place to start right I don't think there's one prescribed way to do it but I do think then at least somebody's had exposure to it it's going to capture some people it's not going to capture everybody right but it is important to have that awareness out there and I think you know our systems are so big that that we want big things to be able to change those systems to right but so like like a training is like a big system here's a here's a thing for a lot of people to take this course or whatever good good start but then the fine the fine of it is going to take you know more individual focus yeah I think what you're alluding to is literally from the get go like in the hiring process there need to be probes put out to truly identify whether or not people are aligned with regards to these particular values and I have not seen that personally like you know they might start slinging some words here and there but but there's not actually an intent to uncover the level of buy into that kind of ideology yeah yeah I agree and on that note we have to let the next people get set up thank you guys so much