 Welcome to the drum history podcast. I'm your host Bart van der Zee and today I am joined by Klaus Hessler Klaus. How are you? Hey, all fine here. Thanks so much. You're great to be on the show. Yeah, awesome I'm honored to have you here. We're we're here today to talk about molar and then Jim Chapin and your lessons with him and then we're gonna get into some more rudimental stuff Which you're very famous for And and all that good stuff. So we are it's it's about four in the afternoon for me But it's it's about 10 p.m. For you. You're you're you're going late here But anyhow, I'm a big boy. So don't worry too much. Okay. All right. Well, I just want to make sure you get to bed on time Awesome. All right. Well Can you please just run me through what is the molar technique and then we'll go through him as a person But just maybe what what is the technique? Yeah, I mean mostly I in a nutshell. I would say molar technique is Is a method of movement I should say which goes back to European Drumming traditions that can be traced back even I would say easily to the 1400s and I Mean of course at a certain point those European drumming traditions Which are mostly rooted in Switzerland and France and certain parts of Germany. They have been exported to the New World which later became the US as we all know and It turned to be the molar technique after the influence and anything happening around the area of the era of the Revolutionary War then the Civil War and it really became the molar technique after Sanford molar had watched and analyzed veterans of the US Army Somewhere by the mid 1920s and it was It was actually not molar who gave his name to the technique It was more or less his students that would say I am practicing the technique of Sanford molar or I'm using molar's System or I'm using the technique of Sanford molar and eventually it became molar Technique but it was not Sanford molar himself who would say this is now my technique He was very much aware of the aspect that he had just pretty much Stolen let's say sure and adapted this technique by watching veterans that had served in the army and played Field drums In the Civil War that's pretty much the the story about it. Yeah. No, that's interesting Yeah, Dom Femularo was on the show a fellow Maypex drummer and he He spoke a little bit about that about how you watch these guys who were 90 years old getting such huge hits and you know such great volume and they're They're so just I mean these are great Civil War veterans, you know, and they're still able to get that much power So and I know also with the Stone George Laurence stone stone stuff. It was similar where he didn't sit down and write stick control per se They just put together a lot of his pages So I think that makes sense that someone else gives you the name the molar technique. You can't say This is I'm molar and this is my technique Makes sense. Yeah, although at times people do things like that But yeah, but I mean it's it's really hard to come up with something which is actually absolutely new under the sun And especially with an instrument which is as old as the drums almost Anything you can think of has been done before By one or the other person. So yeah, so it's really hard to say this This is my thing and it has not been done before. Yeah, very true. That's true and pretty much everything in life. It's like All right, now why don't we talk about Sanford molar is a person You were mentioning before we were recording. He goes his family goes back to Germany, which I should have mentioned before but you're obviously German you are in Germany, correct. Yeah, right, correct. So yeah, tell us about him as a person well, I mean Sanford molar as and what I'm telling you now is is pretty much based on what on what I learned from Jim about Sanford molar and a couple of things I read about Sanford more and I was Sort of diving more into the issue I think Sanford molar was a relatively late starter on the drums So he went to the army. He fought in the Spanish-American war I think and and started drumming relatively late and So he was under the influence and under the teachings of a couple of drummers that that would that would play in in the in the band of John Philip Sousa, for instance and Well, then molar pretty much was was the drummer in in a vaudeville act By Famous George Kohan No, I'm not aware of or did you ever hear about George Kohan or yeah, Dom mentioned him on the on his episode And I just remember him saying that he was basically the father of like modern Broadway as we know it You that's pretty much of what it is. I guess I mean the the vaudeville scene is sure Say something like somebody's telling a joke and and and there's some little acting and some music and some dancing And then in the end everybody performs together and that's pretty much it so So George Kohan had this vaudeville act and and Sanford molar was one of the drummers And the story also goes that for instance, buddy rich was one Of the attractions actually in George Kohan's Vaudeville show So it's very likely that that buddy rich as a young kid was listening and possibly even watching Sanford molar in the pit So who knows what what that connection was responsible for. Yeah, just saying yeah, of course And it was pretty much during his time with George M. Kohan and the and the traveling all across mostly the east coast of the US that that Sanford molar would Would visit veterans in their homes and he would always have something to drink and and and and tobacco and he would he would talk to the to the veterans and And he would have them play drums for him their field drums And of course what they did was they would pretty much duplicate certain routines that they used to perform during their Their service in the in the US Army So they would play the three camps and the downfall of Paris they would play the tunes and the orders and the and the drum beatings that they were aware of and I I would assume they were not playing exercises like Jim Chapin later made them famous. I assumed they were mostly playing tunes and out of playing These say rudimentary classics like Dixie and the downfall of Paris and Turkey in the straw and British Grenadiers and and anything that that you had to play when you were a drummer in the army molar pretty much watched and analyzed their movements and he came up with the idea of say Discovering the upstroke. He discovered a stroke in which the wrist would Indicate the direction of the move. So so when Mola was referring to an upstroke He would not refer to the tip of the stick he would refer to the to the direction that the hand would travel at the time of the hit and It was always super important for them to have the stick in some sort of constant movement So so these guys back then they most likely had a very different perception of playing as opposed to What we see when we see? modern contemporary rudimental guys perform So so the the moving culture I would even say and and the method of movement was quite different and He analyzed that further with the whip and the upstroke and the fly back Which was nothing else than a different word for rebound and and all of these ingredients finally came to to make Mola technique in in essence, I'd say Wow. It's so neat to think of like it feels the civil war obviously here in America feels like It is a long time ago, but just to think that you're only a Couple generations away from people being alive and learning from those people just to sit there and watch these guys play What was his era that he was in like when when would he have been born and his you know, when did he die Mola? Mola was born. I think 8079 if I'm not mistaken, okay, and I think he died in the 1960s 61 or 62 I think okay I am I may be wrong For a couple of years, but that's pretty much from 1880s to 1960s. I think Mola was 1879 to 61 62 something like that. Okay, and it was pretty much the same era as as of George Lauren Stone who lived around the same time and It also was about the same time that that very influential Swiss drummers and educators were Were alive working like like the late great dr. Fritz Berger who was one of Say the most influential Swiss drumming guys. Sure. Yeah, I learned a little bit about the The world of Swiss drummers when Mark Beecher was on the show great rudimental drummer Yep about learning about the Swiss army and all that cool stuff So that's neat. Now, obviously you are a very close student with Jim Chapin. So Why don't we kind of an in a parallel fashion? maybe talk about Mola and then his his students, right, which Might be a naive thing to say but so Chapin was a direct student of Mola, correct Yes, that's that's correct It should also be mentioned that that Jim was a relatively late student of of Sanford Mola and And I'm mentioning that because there are quite some differences between The early students of or relatively early students of Sanford Mola like for instance say Gene Krupa Whose method of movement is quite different from what from what Chapin used to do But but Mola was always heavily into teaching and he was he seemed to be a very strict teacher and He must have been a tough a tough cookie. I should say and I mean, it wasn't just it wasn't just the teaching that that Mola was was absorbed with he also built drums and The story goes he would only sell you a drum If you would play for him and if Mola would think you're no good, he would not sell you the drum Oh, man from a today's perspective and and and aspect of marketing Possibly not that smart, but who knows what it was good for. No, man. He must have had a ton of students Obviously, but these guys who their name lives on for you know Like the next hundred years you must have a you must spread your name and your lessons a lot over the years Yeah, and and I mean Mola he he he must have been a very strict guy I mean you possibly heard about the the famous March to Boston where he he marched from from Say around 240 miles I mean, obviously not in one go But every step on the on the March he was playing the drums Oh, wow as he was sort of under the impression that drumming should be an Olympic discipline He wanted to be drumming Olympic man. No kidding. Yeah. No, I had heard that that's wild And just as as another side note was that I think Mola was also a member of the polar bear club Which included the aspect of him say Swimming swimming in the ice water in winter you would break the ice and jump in and Swim a couple of rounds or dive under the ice and then go out again And he would do that every day every winter. So I mean to do that That tells a lot about your your discipline and and the way you are as a person Yeah, big time Now I forgot that I knew I'd heard it on a couple episodes But I forgot that Jean Krupa was a student of Mola which is which is funny because Jean is known as just being like the nicest guy in the world Jean you're right. He doesn't have the same technique that you see with the later guys, but Isn't there some connection with Jean Krupa and Jim Chapin as well? Yes, sure it is and I should say that the connection First of all the difference between between the movements of Jean and the movements of Jim was mostly that as I mentioned before Jean was a relatively early student of Mola and and he was and that was at the time when Mola was heavily under the Over-exaggerated upstroke spell I should say and all his later students like Jim for instance Mola would be very strict about not over exaggerating the upstroke and not drooping your wrists and stick too much and The connection with or the connection between Jean and Jim pretty much goes back to to Jim watching Benny Goodman in Manhattan and Going going to a gig with with Benny Goodman I think it was and and Jean would just go backstage and And ask Jean for lessons Now you must understand that it's pretty much the same as if you would go to To a stingig and you're trying to go backstage and ask Vinny for a lesson This is not happening. This is not an option, right? No exactly, but but Jim actually did that so So Jean being that kind person that he was he would say kid I don't teach but I know a good teacher go to Sanford Mola. He's gonna teach you what I can do and And and that was in essence what what Jim really did. So not that much later Jim finds himself performing Pretty much on almost the same bandstand as Jean Krupa, right opposite and And Jean would listen to Jim and say boy, I remember you you're the kid You were asking me for lessons and so you went to Mola and obviously Mola told you something different as opposed to what he showed me and So that was their first encounter then again and then a couple of years later still Jean was was was calling Jim for lessons and then in turn Jim became the teacher of Jean Krupa. So so the so the places had changed which which is some Funny twist of of faith. Yeah It is but they're both such they both come off as very nice guys where it wouldn't be like I'm not gonna take lessons from you I'm your superior. It would be more of like a oh boy. I can actually learn from you. Cool. Let's do it You know good for you for working Interesting. Hmm Now two questions. I'm gonna probably just jump in as things kind of pop into my mind here I don't think I asked this before where was Mola located? Was it in the New York area? It I think it was New York era, right? Okay, they all guys like me and Cincinnati. We don't get any of these famous teachers and How long would a guy like Jean Krupa go to Mola or Chapin for like I imagine if you're a professional drummer, do you go in that in that case? to learn the technique and then go you know Spread your wings and fly and then you're off because you know It's not the same as a young student taking lessons for six years with a teacher and going from Yeah, baby drummer to you know, what was a typical run of it? Yeah, I think Mola was relatively well known for the aspect of Throwing students out once he was under the impression that he he was not able to show them anymore. So I think Jim's time with Sanford Mola was around a year. Okay it it wasn't that much more and That's that's at least what what Jim told me and I would think it It may have been pretty much the same with Krupa, although I don't know for sure. Okay Man, that's just everything about him like like when I um, I taught at like Sam Ash big music store here and stuff in through college and I was like Gripping on to every student for the income like no, no, let's keep learning Whereas Mola's like I'm not gonna sell you a drum. You're done. We'll taking lessons So he must have been doing okay on money there and not had to I guess it was a different different time Yeah, it was a very different perception of of learning and methodology as we have it today and parts of it we're possibly pretty cool and and and Could even be maintained still today what other parts of it, of course May need an update sure that that is that is for sure but I also remember times when when I was when I was asking Jim about his his experiences in In lessons with with Mola and and he really came up with with quite some some funny things like I Remember one time I was asking Jim Boy Jim, do you still remember what was your first lesson like with with Mola and and Jim said yes, sure first lesson Jim had bought Mola's book the art of snare drum And and he goes to the lesson and says good day, Mr. Mola. Yeah Listen, I bought your book. Here's your book and and Mola says oh Jim I wish you had I wish you hadn't bought the book the book is no good The book is all wrong and he and he said that with I mean it sounded very disappointed almost Yeah, and and and I would ask Come on. Why was that? I mean here's the person who wrote the book, but but the author is saying My own book is not good. So so why is that and and it turned that that Mola was not happy at all with the pictures in the beginning section that showed the movements of the whip because the the movements were so Over-exaggerated and he was not happy with that. So Okay, I think you can talk to the to the guys at Ludwig and then they would say Now listen, the book sells quite well and it was awful. It was an awful amount of work to put the pictures together We just leave it as it is and and the book is still in the very same shape today Well, what how do you think the pictures represent it as a you know, kind of a master of this method Do you think they're they're crazy out of line? I mean, they are interesting since they pretty much describe the the over exaggeration of the upstroke that that Mola was was under in his beginning years when he was Starting to put word out about his his technique But from a today's standpoint, I would say The pictures are possibly not good because they really don't represent the way of how the technique Would be used in the best possible way and Jim was not referring at all To these pictures in his strategy of teaching Mola's technique. Gotcha Interesting, you know, and it's just a side note that maybe it's a future episode with someone from Ludwig But it's it's it's neat how Ludwig was so involved with the publishing of a lot of these really early books Like I think stick control originally was thanks to Ludwig and stuff so Now let's talk a little bit more about Jim Chapin. So we know Mola Kind of came up playing with Susa and and that was like his you know, not claimed to fame But that was like, you know, you're a big working musician now Jim Chapin. He was a working drummer, correct? He wasn't just a Not that there's anything wrong with it, but like a life-long teacher like he was a performer, right? Yes, true Okay. Now Jim, when did he pass away? He's he's a very legendary guy, but I don't know when he passed away Yeah, Jim Jim was born July 23 1919 and and he passed away July 4 2009. Oh, wow, and So so he he died he passed away only say a couple of days shy of his 90th birthday man, what a life Yeah, what a life. So I mean what one of the one of the guys absolutely who saw the evolution of modern drum set and giving heavy footprints in that history of how the instrument came together and and how certain say parts of it were even Invented. I mean the the instrument was not the same when Jim started out to play as As compared compared to the days when when he finally passed away. It was a totally different instrument. Mm-hmm. So so he was really born into very exciting times and And the interesting thing still about his death day 4th of 4th of July Obviously is that that Jim was a big fan of of independence Which is why he wrote his first book which was heavily on I mean Came together under the spell of what he did with molar but so the father of modern drumming independence dies on Independence Day and And Jim once mentioned that if if he could pick his death day It would be July 4 because he was a huge fan of John Adams Yeah, who was one of the founding fathers of of the American Constitution together with some with Thomas Jefferson And and just for that for that sake alone He would pick July 4 as his death day and he finally made it exactly to that which is just amazing I think that is that's so cool. He seems like a very nice guy and I think I talked to a Little bit at Pasek. I talked to Jason Edwards from prologix percussion a little bit about his lessons we were talking about that with with with Jim as well and Kind of echoes what you're saying of him just being a nice guy. He Jim it's just kind of funny. He looks like a nice guy. You know what? I mean, I'm sure he was very He wanted you to work. What was it like taking lessons with them and on that note was it? Primarily on the pad were you on the drum set? And you're in Germany. How did this even work for you? I mean, what was what was the story with with you taking lessons with him? That's a lot of questions there. Sorry. Yeah, I mean Taking a lesson with Jim was always a bit of an adventure. Now quite some of my lessons with him took place In the US on Long Island, I mean some of the first ones Back in the Long Island drum center where Dom also used to teach alongside with Jim and Al Miller, for instance, who was another great Long Island drummer and another teacher of Dom actually and It also appeared that that every day or every year when when Jim would would come over to Germany usually Many times twice a year for music master, which was usually somewhere spring March April and then another time Many times around fall October November. He would stop by at my place He would he would stay at at my at the house of my parents-in-law and I would just try to organize as much work for him as possible and Of course then also taking lessons with him, but it was it was many times an adventure because Jim didn't make Victor didn't make victims when he When he was teaching it was he would just go for it but whenever you had a question his answers would always be in detail exactly what you wanted to hear he was not Cryptical he was not Coming up with strange comparisons that you would not understand He was very hands-on and he would teach each student With the utmost amount of respect no matter if it was a season pro who had been playing the drums For years and years or if it was somebody who who was just starting out to play the drums Jim did not care everybody was everybody got the same amount of attention and It was it was both on the pad and the drums Whatever was around he was traveling with his set of say copied pages Either out of his books volume one or volume two and a couple of handwritten sheets Which are spread all over the all over the planet I think I run into these these copied handwritten sheets of Jim everywhere. That's funny. So that was pretty much His routine. Yeah, hmm. That's cool man in inner intercoastal drum lessons there Now was it a pretty standard priced lesson? I mean, that's probably a a silly question But like he's kind of a legendary guy. Was it still like the standard, you know $40 $50 for an hour in in comparison to the inflation and all that Jim actually what one of the one of the very few Malfunctions in the in the in the business model of Jim shape and I would say was that Jim never had a real Concrete idea what he wanted to charge for a lesson. I mean, I I would pay him of course But and I would whenever I would organize lessons for for Jim. I would of course say, okay, this is like 60 bucks 70 bucks Yeah, what whatever the rate was but I have encountered Say countless situations where where Jim would just give lessons for free pretty much and Man because he was so enthusiastic about About teaching and drumming and he would completely forget about time and be off schedule already at Two in the afternoon and there was still a whole day of teaching in front of him And and you were pretty much just trying to to get things sort of organized and to keep everything kind of unscheduled but Trying to really page him the amount that that he really deserved at times was challenging Let me put it this way man. That's interesting. It's so funny him and him and even kind of going back to molar about Not really working out that great with the marketing and the money side of things But I guess it's just the love of teaching. I've had that with my experience taking lessons Now with Barry who's kind of of that earlier generation is it'll be an hour and a half in and I remember back when I was teaching It was like on the hour. It's like alright Someone else has to start now like you know like I would always say the train doesn't stop like if one person gets off then the rest of the day is off so It's not a concern I guess Now as we kind of maybe we'll move on to something else here, but like can you name off some obviously you are but Who are some? drummers that we all might know who use the molar technique That's a good question and I mean We would have to make a difference between Drummers who have the information obviously from Jim himself Okay Yeah, who know what what they are doing and there are still on the other hand quite some drummers who use the same principles But they never took a lesson with Jim Got it and and and we would also have to make a difference between any sort of formal lessons and formal students who would really reach out to Jim and Stop by and then take a lesson in his rooms where he was teaching or if it was just something Okay, we're gonna stop by backstage and you're gonna show me something on the pad real quick. Mm-hmm. Wow. That's a great point but what I what I know is that Jim was always a huge fan of Vinny and Vinny's traditional grip and And I think mostly for the for the not not not just for the aspect of Vinny's musical and rhythmic Say imagination which is which is just beyond he just seems to be The kind of player who can who can do anything But I know that Jim also loved Vinny's traditional grip for the for the sheer aspect of being one of the few guys Who could really get a nice crack out of the drum and a good backbeat? Still using traditional grip. Yeah So so Jim loved that a lot. I know and quite some other guys, of course would include people like Kenny Aronoff who who loved Jim's technique and and was extremely grateful for For Jim's input because at some point, I think Kenny was There were some some some physical Restraints and some physical challenges that that Kenny had at a certain time and just letting go of the stick and And using the the power and the relaxation effects of of Mola technique pretty much Saved his life that that's that's what Kenny always used to say So I mean there are countless more people who would use use the system but these are just two that that come to my mind which are very different with regards to to to their drumming style and their approach of music, but that just goes to say how Universal the technique really is and that it's not just something for the jazz guys or for the rock guys or for or for whatever guy it was it seemed to be the Perfect thing that you could organize all of your drumming with That's interesting and you said too that like it would be if you learned it from Jim or if you kind of Copying what you saw or you learned backstage So was Jim basically Jim Chapin was he basically like the gatekeeper? I mean at that point I'm sure other people were alive and teaching from taking lessons from molar, but it sounds like Jim was the guy kind of like how it went civil war drummers to molar Molar to Chapin and obviously Jean Krupa and everyone but he didn't he taught but not as much as Jim Chapin So if you really wanted to learn this technique correctly It basically had to be through Jim Chapin, correct? I would say so and and there's also word by by sanford molar himself Who would say that that jim was that one student of him who obviously Uh understood best the the techniques that molar was teaching and possibly even added Some some little aspects on on top of it And I think that was just for the pure sake of jim just Just being a genius mind. He would he would bring the ability of analyzing things and looking into the details and understanding What is really happening behind the curtain? And he would include that into his teaching routines and molar understood that and it even went to the point where I think molar also Gave jim one of the drums that one of the us army veterans Gave molar as a present in the 1920s. Oh, wow So so so jim had this really old drum which most likely has been played during the civil war and uh Unfortunately, the the drum got stolen when uh, god When jim's video speed power control endurance was shot because jim would would never lock his car and he just had this Field drum the rope tension field drum with the molar eagle and the and the famous depict with the eagle and the arrows that that was That was molar sign on the on the drums. He had a typical design that he used Uh, and of the car wasn't locked and it was the the drum was stolen and away you go So jeez so it's out there somewhere, but uh, somebody has it. I'm sure If you're listening then please, uh, send it to klaus because I think you're the one who deserves it At this point. Um, okay. Well, that's uh, that's interesting. So, um Okay, let's change gears here. I feel like we have a good understanding of those guys and uh, now I mean you are obviously a direct, you know student going down the lineage there. Um Um What can you let's talk collapsed rudiments something that you mentioned to me about Hey, maybe this is something we could talk about. Can you explain what it is and um, and then maybe we'll get into your, uh, most recent book and uh Yeah, let's talk rudiments Yeah, sure. Uh, now First of all collapsed rudiments. I should I should say is uh, it has been the Uh, I would say the favorite playground Of the late years of uh, of jim Chapin and and I know he started thinking about that already somewhere back in the 60s and uh, long story short, it's about Taking a certain sticking a rudiment Whatever it is. Let's say a rudiment and uh, you're you're maintaining the sticking you keep The the order of right and left strokes, but you're changing the distances between the strokes Uh, but you don't change the order of the sticking. It's just the rhythm that you change It's not the sticking that you change. So you collapse it you collapse the pattern pretty much like a Collapsing chair if you will you change distances like like an accordion there And uh, and you you you collapse and you expand it that's pretty much the idea and The interesting thing is that uh, that jim was using a lot of that in his drum set concepts So that was again another field of studies where the topic of rudiments and drum set slash independence would meet Collapsed rudiments can be also a great tool to better understand the relationship between certain patterns say The single flamed mill is an offspring of the five-stroke roll such as the paradiddle little And the pada-fla-fla are related to each other because they have the same sticking but different rhythm Such as the single drag tab is an inward paradiddle Such as the the single paradiddle is also a flam accent Uh There are countless more but understanding the relationship between rudimental patterns pretty much gives you a completely Different view on the topic that also helps to uh to understand drum set adaptations in uh in yet a different way Interesting now It's not to be confused with like if you're on the computer and you're you know Like let's imagine there's a swing knob Where you go from dot dot dot dot and you make it dot dot dot dot dot and you're kind of playing with time It's not to be confused. It's it's different than that obviously right where you're kind of Still in time, but you're pushing and pulling a little bit is that that's different correct Uh, it it it can it it use it should be different. Yes, uh, I mean But but it it definitely has to do with how far you take the game Uh, say if you if you play, uh a paradiddle Let's say to to to come up with with a super easy example and you have your paradiddle And you can obviously just move from the paradiddle And uh keep the sticking in the very same way And you also keep the pulse and the and the time in the very same spot But you just change the difference change the distances between the notes That's pretty much the the basic concept that Jim was looking into Gotcha, that makes perfect sense. And I appreciate you playing it. That doesn't happen often on this often on this show. So, um That's pretty cool. Awesome. Now, um And then you as a teacher so you are obviously a teacher So um and we can talk about you know more at the end where people can find you and all that stuff But if people wanted to learn this directly from you I know you have a a pretty cool setup. That's a very legitimate multi-camera kind of good audio Setup so if people were to take lessons from you, this is the kind of stuff they can they can learn directly from you, correct? um Yes, and uh, and and I mean some sometimes people would say oh boy I'm having trouble with with understanding rudiments as they are Um, so why should I burden myself with yet another level of craziness? um, I mean just Just to cool things down a bit To me the the the whole aspect of collapsing and expanding rudiments or collapsing and expanding Certain stickings and patterns. It's not about creating complexity By all means it it also can be used as a tool of methodology to point out relatively Simple relationships between Certain right left stickings It doesn't have to be complicated But it it really sheds a completely different light on a learning process That includes sticking and and accents And it's it's it's quite astounding that the rhythmic aspect on top of that also makes it a bit easier to to come up with Say more exotic Grids of subdivision. I mean just to give you a relatively basic example if you were to play a five stroke roll And you were to expand that all of a sudden you're getting into quintuplets Which uh Once you're under the spell of still playing the five stroke roll and you just look into even distances from stroke to stroke You you naturally you naturally Seem to go into the quintuplet without having to think one to three four four one two three four four one two three four four and breaking your tongue, right? Yeah, exactly So that's relatively easy. I think and so collapsing and expanding patterns Is something which can also be used in many fold applications Which shed a different light on not just certain technical aspects, but also certain rhythmical aspects and And the way you use a certain pattern On the pad or around the drums That's fascinating. Yeah, and it's uh, obviously like you said you can use around around the drum set. So this isn't um I think growing up. I kind of had the um mentality of um Always just being a rock drummer Guy on a drum set like I don't really need to practice rudiments. I play on the drum set But now being like, you know an adult I'm like boy, I wish I would have spent more time doing that So that's why kind of on a mission now to learn more of this stuff and uh Because it applies for everything like you said you can use it everywhere. It pretty much does. I mean, um There there there's still a constant discussion going on. Is it is it something worth doing studying rudiments? Uh, and and the answers to that questions may be different and I understand that there are different answers from different people So uh, uh, so quite some some some drummers would say Well, uh rudiments. That's that's the foundation of drumming. It's it's really the the basis of what we do You may have that opinion and and I think Fair enough and uh, and it's totally true for say an army drummer 200 years ago I mean if you were not able to play the rudiments you could not play Your duty you could not play the marches and the and the orders and the drum beatings that you were supposed to play in the army So for an army drummers quite some years ago. It it was the absolute foundation Today for a rock drummer, you may argue that but still what you do is you play Stay certain arrangements of right and left strokes and some are softer and some are louder and uh rudiments actually Come as a compressed nucleus of certain right left loud soft arrangements they they actually uh Generate perfect exercises that uh that help you once you master these exercises To bring your musical imagination into life. So why not take that opportunity and uh and take advantage of that Yeah, that's at least my point. No, I think that's Exactly right where you look at um And I keep going back to it but just because I'm taking lessons on it now But looking at stick control you'd look at the first couple pages and go what you know, this is just rights and lefts But it's like man, there's so much you can do with it and it's exactly like what you're saying about just Take that one little bit and expand it and turn it into something just to let let your imagination go wild If like the better Of a drummer you are The more you can pull out of you know, if you're playing piano twinkle twinkle little star Herbie Hancock or someone would play that completely different than a Beginner and would get much more out of it just by knowing what you know the basics Yeah, sure And I mean finally it all comes down to to understanding the gap between what I used to call the drill zone and the game zone uh The drill zone may be something like Yeah, you you learn the basics you learn Uh the the legacy you you you study the traditions you learn the rudiments You you study stick control you study accents and rebounds you study all the legendary greats On whose shoulders we are standing on and uh and then putting that all to the game zone where you just Try to forget about that and uh and and just enjoy the the fun of doing it And uh jim usually used to say When somebody was asking What what what should I do with with the techniques I I now Learned with you and and the exercises I I did with you and and the typical Chapin answer would be Give me 20 minutes daily in front of the mirror and when you go on stage Forget you know me That's awesome forget you know me. Oh, it's so true And uh, and I think that that's one thing that made jim outstanding as a teacher He would not take himself so seriously that he would only be after the techniques jim was very much after the music, but he understood the connection between both And uh and that I think is what makes uh a good teacher a great teacher Yeah, yeah, you're not learning this in a vacuum. You're you're meant to go out and play and uh Ideally make it your own right to a little bit, you know, you want to keep the technique alive and everything but but be your own drummer Yes, so um That's awesome. Let's hop over now and talk about your book camp duty update Which is just right in line with all of this um and the history And um, I don't I want to be clear that I don't have it. I haven't read it But I'm just looking at it online and I will definitely try to get my hands on it. So Um, why don't you tell us about it? Well, the the main intention of the book to me or the main motivation Let's say was I was I was trying to reconnect the drumming and the music And uh, and the the strange thing I thought was that at a certain point in time the the drumming and uh, and the music almost seemed to be separated now Say if if I'm if I'm Bringing up the three camps for instance. I mean who out there still knows that the three camps uh as a Drum beating as a as a march as a signal to to wake up troops also has a five melody and who out there would be Would be able to whistle that tune So so who would be aware of the music and uh, it almost seems like okay. Here's the rudiments and uh Oh, yeah some some at some point back there there used to be music that the drumming would accompany But uh, we forgot the music and and only the the drumming and the rudiments Were left as a short passage on a poster. I think that's very poor And and that was the the main intention reuniting the music and the drumming and also understanding that the the drumming and the music has has european Origins, so most of that is Swiss and french and to a certain degree it may be It it may have some german influence as well. I mean the the borders between the countries back then During renaissance times, of course were much different as they are today So this is why I say it has european roots, but the french and the swiss origins are extremely strong with that So i'm i'm giving some sort of a historic timeline of how drumming developed beginning in the 14th century To the times of the revolutionary war and the civil war and then I present certain classic tunes from that uh from these times i mean starting with uh with with a piece from the from the 1600s until say standards like The downfall of paris and the three camps and the british granadiers and yankee doodle and dixie and all of that But I I not just present the classic original tunes and and the drum beatings As they were used in their authentic way. I also present an updated version which uses the same melody same five tune but using influences from basel drumming and collapsed rudiments that Chapin concept that we talked about earlier And that also fits on the same melody. So i'm i'm kind of Trying to reconnect the the tradition of drumming from hundreds and hundreds of years ago to what we have today And and there's very much of a common thread to it And it appears quite some people Like it which i'm of course happy about so of course yeah, I think your attention to detail and um I just think what i've learned from this show is people really really enjoy and respond well to um when people just really want to keep historical traditions alive And um, and if not modernize it a little bit to keep it, you know relevant and so you're not just printing out sheets of you know Music where you're just playing the same thing. Um, yeah, and you come it has a CD with it. Obviously I can see that so That's really cool. That's that's great. You're doing that and uh, and and it's it's obvious, but you people don't need to be Standing there in their full uniform with a rope tension drum to do this I'm sure it would still be fun just to sit there in your living room, right? I mean that makes sense Yeah, but the the the interesting thing still is that um, I mean the the the feedback i'm getting on this, uh From from all kinds of drummers, uh, say, uh David Garibaldi is a big fan of it and and he also took a couple of lessons on and stuff like that Uh, just as steve smith was writing a testimonial for it or big furth or john back or A little funny story on the side Which is just two days ago now. I I came back home late and uh, my phone is ringing and uh And believe it or not, it's steve gad. So my god What would you think steve gad is calling you and is asking you for a copy of camp duty update? Uh So I had to sit down and uh and have a drink after that. Yeah, that's exactly what I would do Just just saying so, uh, so that's awesome. Obviously there's something to it. I hope yeah Oh man, that's so cool. And I just want to say we We it most people know it who are listening to this but you yourself I mean, obviously people can probably gather it from talking to you are an amazing drummer both on the rudimental stuff And just getting you on a drum set um from watching videos and and posting some on social media and stuff. Um, so You're a monster drummer, man. You're great Thank you. I mean, I mean the the the whole rudimental act and and all of this is is pretty much, uh Uh, I I would even call it like something like a hobby. It's it's not it's not something that that I do for a living but it just It just connects perfectly with with my main topic with Which is which is still drum set playing of course, but but understanding that knowing about rudiments and the and the history part of it and and Just seeing how that puzzle of drumming Is is sort of coming to To to a complete picture. Yeah, that's that's just something I enjoy so much that that I keep doing it And uh, although it's it's not what I really do for a living Of course, I'm a drum set player and I wouldn't call myself a basildrummer or a a true rudimental Shotgun that that's not what I am. I I know a thing or two and I can play a thing or two but But I'm mostly attracted by by the beauty of of these old rope tension field drum 16 by 16 and I I just enjoy that That voluminous and and majestic sound I should say. Yeah Yeah, they're um They're works of art I mean really I got a book from a friend mark robertson Who's a great friend of the show who sent me a book on them and I've just like looked through and it documents them all beautifully and I think was written by george carol It's something I'm getting more and more into where you appreciate the art of these rope tension drums So I'm right there with you. It's it's very cool So claus, why don't we tell people here at the end? Um, where they can find you the best way to take a lesson With you take lessons with you. Um, so why don't you tell us all that good stuff? Uh, well, I mean, of course, uh, there's my website claus hesla.com Uh, which has a contact uh formula which you can use to to contact me for any open lesson slots That's possibly the easiest way to go. Of course, there's Uh, there's claus dot hessler on instagram There is uh claus hessler official on facebook. I'm also on twitter, but I'm not super active on on that platform um, so those are the the the the usual ways to uh to find out about me and uh, I'm quite easy to handle so you don't need to be afraid that Yeah, that's funny man. This has been great. I've just learned so much from you So, um class, I want to thank you for taking the time to be on the show and uh And it was great to meet you and talk with you and oh, I want to give a uh, thank you too I'm going to probably mess up the name but frank denage Um, who originally recommended you And um, some other people I'm going to be talking to down the road, which I hope comes together. Um, So thank you to frank, um for getting us uh putting the idea in my mind. Um, so Yeah, there's there's still one more thing which comes to my mind right now Sure. Uh, I I just started a, um, uh Some educational output with With an online format, which is called open minded drumming.com And the first set of courses we have been putting out now is uh, um, say, um An online seminar, uh, which is learning about learning swiss rudimental drumming from scratch Uh, and I think there is no online information about that to to really learn that Uh, when you're not having the chance to to study with somebody from switzerland directly or whatever So it's uh, it's really some some amazing footage high quality stuff Uh booklet that comes with it. So if you want to check that out and you want to learn a bit more about my hobby Yeah, uh, you're welcome to to check this out open minded drumming.com man. That sounds like something I'd be interested in again kind of You need that You need that way to get into it You know what? I mean, you need because sometimes you'll look up videos and people are assuming that you grew up as a rudimental drummer Which it's like I can really play the drums like I know what I'm doing on the drum set But um, that sounds perfect. So I'm gonna check that out. Um, and I recommend everyone else does too. Yeah, please do Awesome class. Thanks for being here my friend It was super fun to talk drums with you and uh, and just as I I love playing the drums. I love talking drums So so so you caught me on my weak spot Me too. Thanks man You're welcome. Thank you so much If you like this podcast find me on social media at drum history and please share rate and leave a review And let me know topics that you would like to learn about in the future Until next time keep on learning This is a Gwyn sound podcast