 Speculations of that former president, Goodluck Jonathan, made a defect from the APC to the PDP has been circulating the news since the visit of the APC governors led by Yorbe State governor and chairman of the Caretaker and Extraordinary Convention Planning Committee, Mey Malabouni, on the occasion of Jonathan's birthday in a bouja in November. Joining us to discuss this is a political analyst at Chike Tudde and legal practitioner Ladik Wadjonson. Thank you very much gentlemen for joining us. Mr. Tudde, it's interesting that former president Goodluck Jonathan has been in the news for either being, you know, an emissary of sorts for Mr. President to different countries, aqueous countries, somewhat like a peace emissary. He has gradually moved from that to becoming someone who's being eyed to become a member of the APC. The same president that most pundits would refer to as one that was getting the shorthand of the stick from the APC. It makes it pretty difficult for some people to believe that this particular rumor is true. But what do you stand? I'm not going to dismiss it outrightly. Politicians are very strange creatures everywhere, especially in Nigeria. So there is nothing beyond them, especially when you are talking about politics without principle, politics without any serious ideological grounding or fixation. So a politician that is ruled by an ideology is a politician that will take a decision on the basis of whatever philosophical constructs he's confronted with. So he's not going to do it just for the sake of power. There is something that motivates him. There is something that pushes him. So because of the absence of that in Nigeria politics, anything goes. And of course we know that it's so easy for one politician to move from one party to another in Nigeria because most of them stand for nothing. But then again, if the APC is actually trying to woo him, it is because I think he set a precedence in this country. If he is an emissary today, on behalf of any West African sub-region, trying to make peace in troubled countries in West Africa, it is because he has ended that right. Especially what he did. That is what has made him a statesman in Africa. And that's why a lot of countries need him when he comes to trying to tie knotty issues that today other countries have. But even if that story is true, just like you said, he received greatly the short end of the stick when he was in power. And the APC did every single thing possible to destroy his reputation, to malign him, accuse him of all kinds of offenses and all that. And then eventually they ended up replacing him. And so what we have seen is that whatever achievements he made as president of Nigeria had been visiated by the failures of the APC. And the country that Jonathan left in terms of the economy, in terms of even the issue of security. Of course we know that the security in Nigeria is far worse today. Then the economy has completely been destroyed. Of course, we all know the inflationary rate in the country and then the exchange rate under genetic, I think it was around, was it two something, three or a something today? It's about close between 450 to 500. So there is really nothing to hold on to. And you can only feel sorry for anybody that is going to succeed their president, Muhammad Buhari, as president of this country because it is going to be a very tough decision to try to unravel and to try to undo the damage that had been done under his administration. So if they are trying to go for Jonathan, it is not out of love. For Jonathan, it is pure selfish politics. And you would imagine that most of the people that are angry for Jonathan to come back, give the stories through, and not turn politicians. And the major reason why they are trying to do that is simply because it is only a Jonathan presidency that would assure them of four, that would assure the control of a four-year presidency before it goes back immediately to the North, because he had already done four years. Any other Southern politician will remain in power for eight years. And so you ask yourself what the North works with power at this particular point in time. They should be ashamed of the embarrassment of the past six years under President Muhammad Buhari. Is there a written law, Mr. Tudei, that the North cannot yearn for power as many times as they want to? That argument has not been made. But the reality, that argument... So why should they be ashamed if these people feel that they're prepared and always have someone to feel for that office? Why should they be ashamed? Because you see, after a very long time, they were accusing certain politicians of having arranged this country that the opportunities they had to be in power, they did not do anything with it. So they say what comes around goes around. So it is from that perspective that we're looking at. And it's not just that. They themselves, for those ones with conscience, are also feeling embarrassed because of the failures of the Buhari presidency. It is from that perspective I'm looking at it. And so when you have this kind of glaring failure, you want to have something else in place with the hope that it is going to be well for the country ultimately at the end of the day. So whether we have a Northern president, a Southern president, the reality is that the political arrangement in this country is such that the way they did it, so that all sides of the country would have a shot at the presidency, is that the president does not handle it. And then after a period of time, it goes back to the South. And then before it goes to the North, so that that arrangement will go around the entire country. But it is not politics, it's not power at the presidential level for the sake of it. I mean, I'm from the Southeast and I can tell you that it doesn't really bother me if you have the South Easterners as president of Nigeria or not. What we want is a president that is going to be there for everybody, for the South and for the North. That is the kind of president we want. I'm going to put a pin there and I'll come back to tackle you on the Southeast presidency. But let me come to Mr. Johnson. It all started when the Bialsa election happened. It came as a surprise to many, but many also started at the time to speculate that maybe former president Goodlock Jonathan may have been in bed with the APC. Even though, like I started, I said he's an emissary of sorts, he's seen as a peace advocate all across the continent, even across the world. And so he reports to the sitting president. But then because we're not a fly on the wall and we do not know the ongoings within the Asarok villa, these rumors have grown bigger. But I ask you, as someone who analyzes politics and a lawyer, why would a president Goodlock Jonathan want to, former president Goodlock Jonathan, want to take another shot at the presidency? Well, most politicians would not shy away from the seat of the presidency, especially if it's given on a platter of gold. He has constitutionally, he could have another four years if things work out. But I doubt, personally doubt whether he would go all the way to accept the offer if there is an offer. You would know that I think a few governors have moved as well. Some senators have moved. You'd note that the APC is trying to rule as many key people as possible before the elections. Now they know fully well that the economy is in a state whereby the average person is not too happy with what is going on at the moment. But if they are able to take out some key politicians, not take them out as and kill them, but as in win them to their side before 2023, then the opposition party will be depleted and then it will be easier for them as it were to get re-elected at the center. I want to ask you quickly. Sorry, I do not want to distort your train of thought. But if Goodlock Jonathan were to be moved, for example, let's say tonight before we all go to bed, it's breaking the news that former president Goodlock Jonathan has now decamped to the APC, would it in any way change the minds of Nigerians towards this APC government as to all of the things that we've been through? Do you think it's enough reason to really break the camel's back and metaphorically? Personally, I don't think so. I think that unfortunately for him, quite a large percentage of the population are still disappointed at what he did. Now, Achike is right in saying that what he did or what he didn't do at that time might just be, I mean, it's much better than what we have now. But I still don't think that the people, especially in the southern part of the country, a lot of people are not happy with the way the economy is with the APC. If you go online and you see the comments, then you see a lot of people treating this issue that I read one the other day and said he was a supporter of Jonathan. But if he goes to the APC, he's lost him. So I don't think it will be a magic one. They'll still have a lot of work to do. And I'm not so certain that it would work because the APC is still going to have an earthquake. The PDP is rocking at the moment. So a lot of things are still going to happen before 2022. Back to Achike, I did promise that I was going to tackle you on the South Eastern president because this is something that League will have been pushing for, asking for, you know, an opportunity at that ticket. But this is the question I always ask. And I'm not biased in any way because, you know, I'm from the South, but I have no business with the politics. I'm just thinking, you said something about the North and I'm bringing it back again that, oh, this should be a shame because they've had so many shots at this presidency. And so they should allow power to rotate. But if we were, for example, to throw the door open and say, well, let's give the South East or the South South or the Southwest an opportunity to run who's readily available that we can point to. Let's start with the Southeast. It's okay to agitate. I'm open to the idea of agitations. But when it comes to the North, there's always somebody who's ready, more like being groomed and ready to run for those offices. But in our case, who can we readily point to, especially in the South? Yeah, let me put it this way. It's not, when I talk about everybody in the North being ashamed because of the lack of governance in the country, it is a statement that should go to virtually all the politicians in this country, North and South, look at what they have done with the country. So we've not had any meaningful development. I mean, the kind of development that a country in the size of Nigeria should have with all our natural resources and all that. So it is something that should go generally to the political class in this country. They have been a big disappointment, regardless of whether they're from the North or the South. Now you talk about the North always having somebody or being ready, having who? Having who? The North today is in crisis, perhaps more than especially at the level of insecurity. There was a Northern president that they matched from there. So what is life like in the North of this country at this particular point in time? This is a question you should ask. So it is not about power for the sake of power because what we have had in Nigeria in most cases is power for the sake of power. Not political power that redeems the country economically, socially, politically in so many other ways because that is the essence of taking power. So I cannot say that the North has actually, they've always been ready with somebody who is going to have power. For what purpose is that power going to be acquired? Now you look at the North, there's no part of this country. Let me just put you to say there's no part of this country that does not have people who are in a position of people who have what it takes to govern. But you see, you'll be looking at the system in the country and people have often talked about that. And the argument has been made that even if you bring NGOs into Nigeria, that it's going to be very difficult for them to provide meaningful leadership. But we're talking about a leader that is nationalistic, that is patriotic, a leader that is focused, a leader that is bold and courageous, a leader that understands both domestic and international power dynamics and that is ready to do the right thing, to call a spade, a leader that is ready to sacrifice his life in the process. It is not a leader that's going to govern out of fear because if you're going to govern out of fear, you're going to pander to certain interests that are inimical to the overall interests of this country. So do we have such people? I believe that they are Nigerians and wonderful people. We have seen what Nigerians do outside the shores of this country. And I do not doubt you, Mr. Tude, that we do not have those sort of people, but are they in these political parties? Are they the big players? This is the question. I'm not saying that Nigeria does not have people who are capable of leading, but where are those people? This is my question and I'm going to throw that question to Ladik Mottu. Who are these people? Because the people you're referring to may not be the ones who are key players in our big political parties. So why don't we find them? Yeah, I've been impressed with this. I'm the former director of the Central Bank of Nigeria, in the case of Mombogalu, for instance, is somebody that I have a lot of respect for. He's not a sisters man. And so when you look at him, I mean, where you hear him talk, where you hear him speak, when you know that he has a proper understanding of the political dynamics of this country, you realize that this is a man that has everything. There are a lot of people who are very good orators, but when it comes to acting, they're not. And I'm not in any way saying that he's not able to. But when you say, yeah, the way they talk. I talked about the sisters. I talked about the sisters. I mean, pediments of such people within the system. Because you have a bunch of people who took power since 1999 and who have accumulated illegally the resources of the Nigerian state. And with the resource of Nigerian state, they have been able to keep other people outside of the door. You understand? So this is part of the problem. That's why it is difficult for good men to ascend political power in the country unless there's something revolutionary that happens even within the Nigerian people. So it's a very hard sale. It's a very tough ask. It's not going to be easy, but there are people there and he is one and there are so many other people too that have the ability. Mr. Johnson, I'll ask the same question, but in a different way. We have amazing Nigerians on the international scene doing great. We have one in the AFDB. We have one in WTO. We have so many Nigerians. Some of them we've never even heard of them because they're not politicians per se. We have people who are capable of doing a lot of things. But when it comes down to the politics of it, can we really point to those people? I mean, even in the Southwest, we just keep talking about one person. Where are the other guys? Including the other guys and women are there. They're there. They're even within the political parties. But because you do not have a sufficient amount of people who put Nigeria first and who will say that this is the person that can lead us in the direction we want to go in the next four years, then you have those who are businessmen, who are political jobbers, as they say, controlling the primary election process of the parties. If you're spending 30, 40, 50 million just to get in the form and you're spending about half a billion to one billion to get the nomination of a party and the system recognizes that, then there is no way. There's nothing you can tell me. There's no way you're going to perform for the benefit of the people because it's either you want to recoup your money or you have to service those who put the money down for the elections. So the people are there, but Nigerians are not participating. Even general elections, the last one, we had just 25 percent for the presidency. Gubernatorial was even less. So if Nigerians do not participate, especially in partisan politics, then we'll keep churning out whatever those who are like, they've taken it as a business, we'll keep churning out what they want. Well, that sounds very unfortunate, but on that very unfortunate note, I want to say thank you. Chiquiture is a political analyst, Dan Ladikba Johnson is a legal practitioner. Thank you, gentlemen, for being part of the conversation. Well, on that note, I want to thank you all for being part of the show tonight. Tomorrow there's more news, there's more politicking to talk about. I am Mary Anacone. Have a good evening.