 Hello everybody welcome back to another episode of Anabaptist Perspectives. I'm here with my cousin Michael We're in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, and I've actually been wanting to do this interview for a long time Michael I'm not sure if you knew that. I didn't know that. I've really enjoyed talking to you about this particular topic of the Discipleship of the mind and what does that look like? So can you introduce yourself and tell us some about your intellectual pursuits currently? Yeah, so I was born in Virginia now I live in Lancaster never thought it would end up here Counselor at Life Ministries so counseling is what I do So right now that's primarily where the intellectual endeavors are. It's counseling related That's what I have my degree in. There was an earlier phase of life where I was really passionate about academic theology Probably too passionate, which is probably what we'll talk about some today Probably most of what I'll say today has to do with that. My experience was with academic theology, I think that's where I learned a lot about The joys and pitfalls on the life of the mind. Well, yeah, let's I mean let's jump right into that like the life of the mind What are some of the good sides of that? Like how did you experience that as a a positive thing for your walk as a believer? Well, so many things so I think of language Hmm Not in the sense of English Russian spent but in the sense of we speak different languages as it were we use different terminology different Concepts different ways of expressing the faith So one of the things about about intellectual pursuits is it can enrich your faith language It can enrich your language for articulating the things of God So I found that when I started studying academic theology I could I could talk to God and about God in ways that I couldn't before It wasn't necessarily about the content. It wasn't necessarily about this idea. This it was it was more more means of expression and and I think some people tend to think that You know being an intellectual is somehow divorced from the heart Which I think is a misnomer anyway. I think we that's an Americanized way of using the word heart In emotional terms, but it doesn't have to be that way the intellect and and the emotional life are deeply Interconnected in my experience. So that's one way that the life of the mind can really enrich, you know one's spiritual life It's almost like an expanding of of your world almost. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah giving you more ways of Explaining things almost. Mm-hmm another way of thinking but in a devotional sense too. Yeah In in prayer. So I don't you know share all of what goes on up here with just everybody But you can share it with God if it's opaque to human beings, it's not opaque to God So in counseling we can expand on that. Yeah counseling. We're always talking about content and process Mm-hmm. So that's one of the things I thought about in preparation for this interview I think it's easy to judge the merits of Intellectual whether it's theology or any other intellectual pursuit simply based on the content But the process is valuable as well So, you know, there are a number of things, you know, if you're an intellectual type and you like to learn You like to think it might be easy to think well this thing that I'm studying this thing that I'm reading about What is it really matter? What is the subject really, you know, that's not the only element the process of learning the process of cogitating the process of thinking can be enriching it can be a Replenishment of psychological energy that then used to to bless others. Okay. This is why like I've never thought of it Quite like that before I've this is way off the beaten trail, but like for me personally I wasn't even thinking of this when I wrote the questions for this interview But I find That I'm a little bit off In life if I don't spend Some time every day usually in the morning just letting my brain Work on something or to learn just learn something. Yes. Yes. I'm okay. So I'm not weird in that I guess Well, unless we both are and Maybe but like that comes back to that Process and how that can bring what I think you'd like say it's psychological renewal or like mental rejuvenation And for me it could be just a anything even like teaching myself a new thing about whatever math or philosophy Not even necessarily exactly. Whoa. Okay. I've I've just I've never thought of it that way I was and I've just been noticing that about myself You know and the same thing is true with just the basics of the faith of the bible So, you know, some people kind of have the attitude. Well, why do we come to church week after week after week? I mean after 50 years of church attendance, don't we know the bible? Don't we know, you know, the god loves us and everything, but maybe it's not about accumulating Knowledge other knowledge matters because it provides a framework But it's the process of coming together and worshiping god by by receiving his word Um, the same way that you know a tree needs water all its life It never accumulates x amount of water and now it's watered. So you're describing how You know, the intellectual pursuits that discipleship of the mind Is helpful and rejuvenating and it wasn't for you and how that works talk about and you hinted at this before but some of the negatives You know, there's always a ditch on both sides So what are some things you learned through this in the past that that you would like to share? Yeah, honestly, most of my thoughts and preparation for this were about the negative Oh, no, it's okay. Well that that process thing is true there as well if intellect is is Engaged for its own sake if the life of the mind takes on a life of its own Then it's easy to get into a process that detracts I think from From having the posture of a disciple. So if we think about what is the posture of a disciple To me the the image for that is Mary sitting at the feet of Jesus. Now, that's it. That's not an anti-intellectual image I mean, she's she's learning she's I mean she gets scolded after all by her sister for not being in the kitchen Doing practical stuff and she's she's out there with the men So it's not an anti-intellectual image, but but it's a beautiful Kind of archetype for the posture of a disciple Which is receptive, pliant submissive We're receiving from God. We're putting ourselves at his feet. Sometimes we call it broken Sometimes we call it surrender Um when the intellect is overindulged especially in certain ways, I think we can lose the capacity For being in that posture. So being an intellect intellectual or learner It can mean, you know learning learning new things being stretched, but it can mean I'm dissecting. I'm evaluating. I'm judging I'm deciding what's true about the universe Again the content may be great. It may be really good theology. It may be a really important issue Um, and that's all well and good, but what's the process? What posture am I in and I think in my own life? That's been one of my regrets. It's just spending too much time In that place where I'm the authority making myself the authority. Oh, wow. Yeah By trying to constantly, you know figure things out and I mean some of that just comes down to Overthinking isn't a good idea But that's the theology of it. So is it I'm assuming humility plays a huge part in this right because you were talking about how you're Working through all this stuff dissecting making judgments on what is true Doesn't strike me as the most humble way to go about it, right? No So then what's the intersection between The good aspects we were discussing of the intellectual life And then taking that okay, but then marrying it to real discipleship What does that actually look like the question itself is so important because you know believers who Have a large intellectual appetite in my experience tend to say things like this well We're to love god with all of our hearts whole Mind and strength and and that's that's great. It's great to point that out. It's often ignored We often miss that part of the command, but the question I so seldom hear asked as well How do you do that? What makes it loving god with my mind as opposed to just Vaging out on intellectual Indulgence so just asking the question I think For starters. Yeah, honestly, I don't know that I have a whole lot of Really practical thoughts there. I think it's mostly about an attitude. So I think about three things I think about worship discipleship and fellowship How does My engagement of the life of the mind impact me in those Three ways maybe not letting it be the thing itself ended itself. Yeah. Yeah, but it means to an end Well, so the question I'd have then what did it look like for you when you came to that place? We're like, oh, I'm out of balance here. How did you try to get yourself back into into balance? Along and tortuous process And Maybe it's still going on. I I think some of it was tapping into very different expressions of the faith that are much simpler So for me music was really helpful So I remember during one time when There was a lot of confusion for me because part of part of Studying academic theology is getting a lot of stuff in your head and sometimes I can create, you know confusion fragmentation even I remember listening to two albums The nathan good family. I forget the name of the album And oasis chorale hymns of the church volume one And I just listen to those over and over and over and experience so much healing Because this music is timeless, you know, these hymns and gospel songs could Could somehow speak at a level that was underneath all of the the intellectual detritus That that was that was up here Cuts through the noise almost. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's right I think a lot of it though is is living in community. It's it's asking different questions So so I used to ask This question is kind of embarrassing to look back on this time in my life now because it's such a selfish Focus, but I was asking the question. Well, where can I find people who share my interests? Honestly, that can be difficult because being intellectually inclined isn't necessarily a unifying experience Like it once was because of the diversification of knowledge But I tried to start asking a different question How can I connect with the people who are right here right now with me? How do I how do I love and serve? The people that I'm with whether they share these intellectual interests or whether they don't And I I'm finding that that kind of fellowship is Maybe just as satisfying maybe even more satisfying. Don't feel like I have a lot of practical answers here No, this is no, I like this though like describing Your process Going back to that concept the process. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I just I've never thought about it quite like that before I think too about about integration. So everything is text So you can you can learn from everything and so this is on more the positive side of it So just asking the question. Well, what can I learn from this? So if I'm If I'm reading a book on whatever subject Um, what can I learn from this because I guarantee it teaches something Important if you listen about God about the human condition about the wonder of of the world So looping this all back around here How can those who are Those of us in their church, you know, especially we're thinking about this church that are more intellectually inclined more academically inclined How can we learn to integrate well? With our local churches With our brothers and sisters who who may not who may be very content doing much more hands-on type things Personally, I've I've witnessed this as a real challenge for some churches because you just have such a variety You may have one person who teaches a college class for a living And the person next to you over is a farmer or a carpenter or a, you know, something very hands-on How do we integrate these two things? How can we love each other through this? Excellent. That's that is the question Because because that's what the church is for That's the you know, I think we tend to have this and this is getting away from the howl question again, but I think we tend to sometimes have this attitude that our external differences are these aggravating impediments To the kind of commonality that that we want to have I think it's the point of church I think the the diversity In external things together with the unity in our faith in jesus christ Is the point or rather A rather the opportunity to love and serve each other in the midst of that is the point This is one of the things we have to be careful about in our in our plain churches Is that is that we don't make cultural uniformity in In extra biblical things The the measure and standard because that actually goes against the grain of and I say that as someone who loves plain culture Actually goes against the grain of new testament ecclesiology, but the howl question. Yeah the howl question So again, I come back to attitude Care about the essentials Value the essentials Invest in the essentials because that's what we have in common. Hopefully that's where I think The purely private investments we make in the intellectual life if if it means it's one thing if it's if it enriches Um my fellowship my worship my discipleship when it Becomes the thing that I primarily primarily value that's going to detract from fellowship That's going to get in the way of fellowship I think it's something Don Carson said I don't agree with Don Carson on everything, but he said We have this tendency to merely assume the gospel And then our passion isn't everything else maybe good things but things that are maybe more peripheral More in the realm of maybe application if you want to say if we're passionate about the gospel Then I think we are naturally going to connect more with our brothers and sisters And and to make discipleship the the priority so So the dominant question is how do I love and serve the people that I'm with That's that still doesn't answer the the practical question does it? I mean, I think it's it's as simple as if if my brother is a mechanic Then I'll ask questions about mechanic work I'll take an interest in whatever is what's his life about Because that's what I would want. That's what those of us who are intellectually inclined Probably a lot of us wish for that and feel lonely in that but it's an opportunity to to turn it around and practice The golden rule, you know, that's what I would want done to me I can use that as a springboard for for doing it to to someone else Because I think isn't that some of the challenge for those that have more intellectual type jobs or you know Are in college or whatever in our plan circles and anti-baptist culture. That's not as usual You know, and I think maybe that can feel lonely. It does. Yeah, it does. That's the other question How do we I mean, what do they need? How do we disciple people? How do you disciple someone who's smarter than you are? In some ways, maybe he's not mechanically smart Or maybe there's some other way, but how do you disciple someone who knows more than you do? Who's been to seminary and you haven't but you're kind of you know because of age or because of whatever you are That person's uh, you're in a leadership or a position of influence I think I think that sometimes it's easy to be intimidated by intellectuals Could that be some of the challenge? Maybe the missing each other in the communication because we're We're not scared, but like or maybe well, I mean, yeah, maybe scared, but more or less I mean, oh, well, we're just we don't know what that's like. We don't understand it So we're just kind of not really go there as much awkward. It's it's sometimes you've got two people who are intimidated So I remember I remember confessing to someone one time, you know when people ask me This was back when I was in college and people asked me what about that I without thinking I hang my head and uh, and she said well, they're probably doing the same thing. I think Intellectuals don't need the people in their lives to be intimidated by them You know they need to be loved just like everyone else. That's the last question I had written down, but is there anything else you would like to share? Well, I thought about this Thinking ahead to The end of life How do I want to be remembered? And I thought about this different times and honestly it's troubled me And I still think about it. Do I want to be remembered? As do I do I want people to say? That guy was really smart, or do I want people to say he loved God? He loved people And that's the question I think We who are more intellectually inclined ought to grapple with that's powerful I think we should Leave our audience to think about that I thought that might make a good final observation. Yeah Thanks so much for sharing Michael. You're welcome. This has been very informative for me. I really appreciate it Yeah, I've enjoyed it too