 Hi everyone, thanks for having us tonight. I'm Breanne Kimmel, I am on the growth team at Zendesk. I'm Anthony Martell, I lead partnerships at Trello. Tonight we're going to spend some time talking about customer feedback. So I wanted to give you guys a little bit of background on me. I actually come from a non-technical background. I actually studied journalism and mass communication, and throughout my studies I was very interested in consumer behavior, and got very interested in basically analysis, customer analysis. So that sort of spun into more of a technical appetite. I led performance marketing for Expedia for a while, and then transitioned into a product manager role on the growth team. And I actually started my career in Sydney, which is sort of my fun fact. So I moved to Sydney after university. I was supposed to stay for, I think, two months, and I ended up staying for about four and a half years. So I love the city of Sydney, and currently living in San Francisco, working at Zendesk. Like I mentioned, I'm on the growth team, and currently I'm working on building a program for startups. So I'm Anthony. Like I said, I lead partnerships at Trello. I'm kind of mirroring Brienne's background here. So I also, non-technical background, I used to work in finance and business, just in general, before I got involved in the startup world a few years ago. So people that are making career transitions, I think that it's a hard time. I know what you might be going through. I didn't move to Sydney, but I did move to New York in a suitcase. And I've previously worked at Techstars in part of one of their programs, and then for a French email startup called Mailjet, before working at Trello. I'm not a product manager, and I have never held that role. So there's like a caveat to what we're talking about here. But in my role, in partnerships, I work with companies like Zendesk and a lot of other companies that are building on Trello's platform, and it involves a lot of product work. So I work with our product team, but I also work with the product teams of all of our partners on what they're actually designing. And so I'm hearing from Trello users about what they want to see Trello do, and work with those partners to help to bring integrations that do those things. So a lot of product work involved there. Great. And then the purpose of tonight, we wanted to have a really honest, more fireside chat style. This talk actually was born in New York. Anthony and I had met for coffee at the Trello office, and we started talking about the future of customer experience and what that looks like. So tonight we're going to be talking about the relationship between marketing, product, and your customer support team. That's why Zendesk and Trello are both here. We spend a lot of time with our customers really understanding what's the future of customer experience, and what does that mean for product managers, and I think more specifically as we either are or aim to become a product manager, how do we make sure that in every conversation we're really thinking about the customer and we essentially become customer obsessed for the long term. So one of the things that we'll talk a lot about tonight is customer feedback and why that's a gift. As you start to get more and more user feedback, these are customers who are really engaged and they're using your product, but one of the challenges that you'll learn as a product manager is you have to be very strategic and understanding what feedback do we take on board and do we use to inform future features, and then what feedback do we kind of listen to but still have authority over our product and build the product that we really want to have. So one of the great things about contact with our customers is that no business plan survives it. No product survives first contact with customers. No feature. And one of the things we have to really think about is from a business standpoint, there are a lot of folks internally that will say they own the relationship of the customer. And what we mean by that is throughout your journey as a company, whether you're a two-person startup or whether you're a Fortune 500 company, customers will always give feedback. So what that means from a marketing standpoint is you might get a lot of feedback on social media, it might be negative positive feedback about your product or your experience. On the product side of things, I think in early days you'll get a lot of feedback from power users and we'll talk a little bit about that, like how do we really determine when early users give us feedback, how much of that is signal versus noise. So we'll help you think about how do we filter through that feedback and how do we make sure we're building the product in a very strategic way. Yeah, so as we kind of think about this kind of question about how do we think more about the customer as a part of the conversation, it's like everybody is involved in that process at a company. And the problem is that if everybody owns it, nobody owns it, right? But you get all of these competing people that have, you're hearing from the customer at some point through the process. And so you have product teams that are thinking about how to make the product do something in particular or you have the management team that are trying to figure out how to make the product monetize and get money from these customers, right? The marketing team that's trying to figure these things out and you're getting all of these pieces of feedback and each one of these groups own a part of that experience in a real way. So thinking a little bit about that, how do these teams and how do we as companies either? And like Braynard was saying, sometimes we work at very large companies, other times we might work at very small companies, but how do we as organizations maybe as a better way to say it, actually approach listening to what the customer is asking for and build better product as a result? This is one of my favorite photos, I think this is pretty funny. So oftentimes what you hear, I think specifically, if you're reading a lot about product management, there's this term about being customer obsessed. And I think a lot of times it's a little bit of a buzzword and we're not quite sure how to implement that. I think in the early days of a startup asking for customer feedback can be really scary. And I think it's scary for a couple of reasons. So you have your first few customers, you want to make them happy, and what oftentimes will happen is you can over optimize based on this early feedback from users. So what we're gonna talk about today is, how do you stay customer obsessed, which doesn't mean that you are necessarily building for the customer, but rather as you're in conversations with marketing or with customer support or as you're really mapping out your product, how do you make sure that you're making the right decisions for your customer? And whether that's early users, but also like who is your ideal customer? So we'll talk a lot about that. So here's an example. This is sort of the typical customer journey. So oftentimes a customer will reach out to you with feedback across a number of channels. That could be anything from email to Facebook Messenger. I think a lot of times if you hear from customers on Twitter it tends to be more of a negative connotation, but as we're building out our products we have to expect we're gonna get a lot of feedback and we're gonna get it across a lot of channels. So historically the way this works is, oftentimes you'll get feedback from a lot of different channels. You'll have a central view, so Zendesk is a way of doing this where basically you're pulling in feedback from all channels and then you have someone on the other end. So generally that's a support agent. If you have your own startup then likely you as a founder will be listening to all of this feedback and responding, but there's technically a framework for really filtering through this feedback. So whether that's a ticket or a shared inbox, that feedback needs to be shared with other teams. So generally that gets shared to marketing, product and support. And the great thing about the product team and I think specifically as a product manager is if you want to become truly customer obsessed, you have to really understand how each team is going to use the feedback. So from a marketing standpoint, marketing wants to make sure that they're messaging and what they're taking to market is accurate. So that's where you'll work very closely with the product marketing team to make sure that you're taking in these insights and really building messaging that makes a lot of sense for the end user. From a product standpoint, this is where you get things like feature requests, which we'll talk about one of our mutual customers and how they think about feature requests, but it's important to really start to categorize like of all the things that our customers are saying, like what are the key points that a lot of this feedback comes down to? It might be feedback on your web experience or more or less your digital experience, but it could also be really early, early product feedback. So one of a good anecdote that I have is one of our customers is Allbirds. So how many of you guys have heard of Allbirds? Is anyone wearing Allbirds? Not tonight. Okay, so their office is actually next door. They're here in San Francisco. And the great thing about Allbirds is, they started out very early using Zendesk, but not in a negative way where they had a lot of negative feedback coming in and they were responding to just inbound. They were actually proactively engaging with early users to say, what do you think about our product? How can we improve the overall like physical product to make this better? And they have multiple iterations and early versions of the shoe. And a lot of that was based on very, very early feedback from the customer. So that was a mix of the marketing team, the product manager, which in this case is more of a physical product designer. And then the third person is the support person who basically acts as the eyes and the ears for the customer. And then from a product standpoint, a lot of times with feedback and what we'll talk about tonight is, how do you really size up the opportunity? So as you start getting a lot of feedback, it's really important to figure out of all of these pieces of feedback, what changes can we make to really improve the overall business and performance? So who here uses Trello? Great, a lot of people there, that's awesome. This is not, for those of you who don't use Trello, this is not meant to be an advertisement for Trello. But what I wanna show is just as Brina was talking about, you've got all of these, all of this customer input that's coming in from all of these places. In that process, there has to be at some point a way that you actually categorize and prioritize some of these things. And so it's really great to have a place to do that. And whether that's in Trello or that's in another tool or wherever that is, this is, I wanna show example of kind of what that is. So one of the companies, Brina and I were talking with Peloton, we recently did a webinar with, showed us one of their boards that they use internally to take that feedback that they're getting from Zendes, that they're getting from their users and actually helping to get that in a space that they can start visualizing it. And the important part is that once it's in that space, then they can start sharing that across the organization in a really interesting way. And so the team here in this case is all on Trello. And so they can say to somebody in the marketing or an executive or somebody on the product team or engineering team or whatever that team is, here are some of the issues or feature requests that our users are having. This is some part of their pain. And so going through that, they created a list for software, for the hardware feature requests, mobile app sales kind of continuing to go on there, allowing them to really say, visualize here are the issues. At a certain point, they'll start bringing in all of those Zendesk issues and attaching them so then you'll get a sense of priority to them in some ways. And some people might from the product team or engineering team might take a look at this and be like, oh, that's an easy fix. And they want to take that. But it really first has to get to somewhere that the entire team can see that. And I know we're gonna talk a little bit about some of those best practices as well. So we wanted this to be our talk to include some of the anecdotal experiences that we've had in our roles and in our companies. And some ideas is like, as you're thinking about this in your organizations today or future organizations, ways that you can get started in building a culture of being customer obsessed. So the first way is to start measuring. I think that what we'll both say and some of the other ones is that assigning numbers to things can sometimes create distance between you and the customer. But it is an important, so it's not the thing that should be leading the customer's voice, but it's one of the important elements of that. And also to see how the changes that you're making over time, whether or not that they're actually having the impact that you're hoping for. So I'm sure that some of you are familiar with CSAT and NPS. They're two different measures, but the customer satisfaction and that promoter as ways that you can start bringing in some of that measurement as far as what people are saying about your product and their experience with it. Creating a baseline for that is really important, so you can start seeing that impact. And another thing in there as well is just like having a system to tag and report on issues. So like if you're in Zendesk or some other tool is saying, okay, this feature request actually relates to, flows into this other kind of greater issue. And so part of that is like, first you have to create a name, you have to name what the issue is or the feature request, and then you actually by tagging things, you can actually start assigning them to those named features, and then also start reporting on them at a certain point. Quick question, how many of you guys are in B2B? Okay, about 50%. What's really interesting is I think a lot of times I tend to hear CSAT and NPS more so in B2B, and I think what's really interesting is that, I know on the Zendesk side of things, like our CSAT score is one of our core value props. So as we're starting to see a very competitive landscape, we have competitors on the high end, as we're moving out market, but I think also we keep in mind the fact that there are a lot of low-end competitors that are starting to pop up over even, I would say the last 12 months, and one of the interesting things is, as you start to build a company, or even as you start to build a product within a company, your CSAT and your NPS will become a core value prop. So when you send your sales team into very competitive conversations, or when you're trying to win new business, prospects are going to ask you, what do your customers say about you? They either want to see qualitative customer stories, or oftentimes they want to see that CSAT number to get a really good sense for once I sign a contract or once I start working with you, what is that experience going to look like? What does your customer success team look like? How are you going to support me for the long term? So I think it's really interesting to see that, moving beyond taking care of your current customers, you can also start to use these metrics to really use them as basically a growth lever for future customers. I think service is part of the product. Yeah, service becomes part of the product, and I think what we're seeing in today's world is that whether you're B2B or B2C, you're always going to have low end competitors. There's always going to be cheaper products and cheaper services. So one of your core differentiators will oftentimes be, how do you listen to your customers and how do you treat them long term? So that becomes more of a retention conversation. So the next thing that we've been talking a lot about is building customer empathy across the organization. So one of the great things about, I would say, Zendesk and Trello's, we both have very similar cultures. And one of the things that we really try to instill in all of our employees is a really strong sense of empathy. And what I mean by that is we wanna make sure that we're taking time to listen to all of our customers. So you're getting a lot of quantitative feedback. We do a lot of surveys, and that we get our NPS and our CSAT score. But more importantly, we take time to have one-on-one conversations. So what this looks like at Zendesk is we do something called customer conversations. So once a month, we'll have basically a lunch and learn. Everyone across the company will come, and one of our customers will come and share basically their Zendesk journey. So the purpose of this is to really learn the ins and outs of their business. And more importantly, we really encourage them to be very raw and honest. So if they have called and had a longer wait time, or if they've had any sort of issues with our product, we have this format where we want them to be very raw and honest. And the whole point of this exercise is to really build customer empathy across the organization, and to really create a community where if we are building a product, we have a face to those customers. Yeah, and similarly at Trello, we have something that we call Cafe Trello that just actually somewhat recently started, and as we've kind of grown and the company's grown, there's a lot of new people there, trying to get away from some of the numbers and bring everybody right up there to some individual users. Like I said, understand their pains, their use cases. We don't know how people use Trello. There's so many different ways. So just having somebody show us their Trello boards is actually a really delightful and amazing thing for our team because you see all of these new ways that people use Trello that you never even thought of. And so everybody at the company is invited to that. So again, you have people across various roles that actually have the power to affect this person's experience. And that might be that somebody's saying, oh, I love this, and they're like, that's amazing, but we can make it even better. Let's make it even better for them. Or someone does say, we hate this. And we're like, okay, maybe we didn't quite understand when people were writing back in those NPS surveys that they didn't like that. Hearing Suzy say that and hearing how painful and what her workaround is for that experience makes me really much more motivated to make that change. And so I think that that, really getting somebody to come talk to you. And I think that at really small companies, your first products, that can be done as well. I think instilling that really early on. I mean, I'd like to see more really big companies do that. One of the ways you can do that at scale, even if you're not doing that in like the kind of video call or come into our office and we're gonna stream this out to everybody kind of way, is what companies like Peloton have done. And Alasin actually does this as well, is this voice of the member, voice of the customer email that goes out and report that goes out to the entire organization. So I get them on my phone and I quickly can look through and see this is what people are saying about your products and get it for every single product right now. And I think that hearing those quotes and feeling the people behind those quotes is really a powerful, powerful experience. So another thing that we've done at Trello is trying to bring community into the customer equation. Probably about a year ago, we launched our own Slack community. It seems like the product school here has their own Slack community as well. I think that, so it's not exactly a novel thing. We first started inviting some of our most passionate users, like the people that would engage with us on Twitter, the people that have written in to us and told us, like, written these love letters about Trello. And then slowly started to build that community. And then at a certain point, I think we made it public and it's up to a few thousand people in that Slack community now, which has been really great. And it's not just our community manager that's in there or the people that are part of the Trello community that are talking to one another. There's channels about everything in there, but everybody across the organization has access to that and they jump in. And so when our PMs want to do some user testing or they want to ask, like we recently asked about Power Ups, which are the kind of Trello integrations, what Power Ups do you want to see and just like generated this conversation? And it's like, here's real people that are asking for this stuff and people that we can follow on questions to. So it's been like a really great community for us and there's people that have issues and all that and our team jumps in there and responds to that. And everybody feels empowered to do that. It's not like, okay, that's the community teams thing. Everybody wants to be a part of that and wants to do that. And one of the things that's really led to a delightful experience for users like can't believe that this, like the CEO from Trello is like jumping in and chatting with them in this community or the person that runs this part of the product is talking to them and like actually listening to them. So that kind of access has really been great. And part of that also is around beta users. So we have gotten more and more interested in kind of exposing what we're working on to users and you kind of think about that like before rather than listen to them when they have a support experience and get really close to the user then or after years of using Trello, like let's get that voice of the, that voice into the product discussion earlier. Let's show this to them. Let's hear what they, like whether they're excited about it or whether they have issues with it and like help our users shape their product in a real way. One of the interesting things about community as well is I think there's a huge opportunity to invest and spend time with your non-power users. And what I mean by that is spend time with people who are new to your product. They're going to have a really fresh take. They're going to provide very different insights. And I think what's really interesting is a lot of times we will spend a lot of money on user acquisition, but I would say a lot of companies don't invest enough in terms of like onboarding and nurture. So I think in terms of building community, there's a huge opportunity to basically leverage the same best practices that we use for power users like Slack channels, bringing customers in to have customer conversations or user groups, but invite your non-power users. I think if you're in B2B SaaS, it's really interesting to spend time with expired trialers. Start to understand if someone has taken the time to sign up for your product and they've used it for a couple of weeks, spend some time with them and understand why didn't they convert to paid? I think that's a huge opportunity specifically in B2B SaaS, but I think there's a lot of best practices that we're seeing in consumer that's kind of changing the way that we do things. So I'll use a couple of anecdotes. I mentioned Allbirds earlier. I think Away, the luggage company, is also very interesting. There's a lot of new direct-to-consumer companies where they're changing an entire sort of perception of their brand or their product. Away is much more than just a suitcase. If you think about it, they're really creating a community and an experience. So I think that's where we're heading in terms of not only B2B SaaS, as far as building these Slack communities and having more in-depth user conferences, but on the B2C side, we are seeing that people really want community and they want to feel connected to the products that they're buying and they want to feel that it's more than just buying a suitcase or Warby Parker is more than just buying glasses, cheap glasses at that. It's more about how are you creating a differentiated experience and how do you have a real community and connection that encourages people to become a loyal or power user. And I think that's really interesting because it's something that your competitors can't copy. As Zendis, we spend a lot of time with our startups, but we also spend a lot of time with our enterprise customers. And we hear a lot of times from enterprise that they're looking to startups, they're looking to the small startups in San Francisco to understand what's the future of our industry and how can we build our product in a way that's lean and nimble. And I think there's a lot of great things to be said about product school because it's basically once you understand like this PM mindset and how you can become customer obsessed, like this is something you can take to any company. It's a really interesting model to think about like how do you get customer feedback early and how do you really use it to like implement and move quickly when it comes to your product. And then the final piece of advice here is ways that you can think about getting started is to create a product council and know what kind of what is that. I think that there's different ways that this can be structured at various companies but the core of it to me is bringing together a cross-functional group of people to have conversations about where the product is and where it's going. And sometimes I think when you're in product and you decide what you're gonna build and you're gonna go build it, sometimes it can be easy to lose little things along the way that when the product ends up getting built, it's the wrong thing. And so by bringing in people from support that were maybe the first people to hear about that issue or the marketing team that are getting the blog comments or the social media around those requests or those bugs, bringing them into the conversation helped them, one, understand why the product was designed in the way that it was. And so part of it is like building kind of some consensus around why that solution, but the other is letting them influence that as well during that process. And so Trello Week created a product council that is around some of this, to expose things that the product team is working on to others kind of across a cross-functional group. Part of that is to feed back that, like what other people that know what that pain is and get that into the product. But also part of it kind of is in the opposite is kind of retaining what is Trello. And as the team has grown and we have new people and we have an enterprise product now and all this, like I think that it can be easy for things to spiral out of control. And we really, if you've used Trello before, probably use it, and if you've used it two years ago, you probably haven't seen a whole lot of changes and that's very intentional. And so how do we do things that feel what we call Trello-y? And so that's part of what we built there in allowing other people to do that. Now also by the way is that, I think that product councils, if they're done right, do not make product managers do what like, this is not product by decision, but it's a way for those product managers to get feedback. And whether they use it or not, it's up to them. They still have the ultimate authority over where that product goes, but it allows them to have feedback from others on the team in a way that can help influence a product in a positive way. So I don't know how quickly we really went through that, but I hope that you found that helpful. I really, like I said, wanted to kind of open this more up to a conversation. Q and A, we've got some of the Slido, Slido. How do you convert NPS into an action item? Totally, transparently, I don't work that much with NPS. Brian, I don't know if you do as well, but I think that over time with those NPS scores and the feedback that you get about why people rate that, it's, you start to see those patterns if you are tagging and starting to actually categorize what those responses are. You name the issue, okay, that's people having an issue with the product not doing something that they want it to be able to do. You name that issue and you start to categorize those pieces of feedback and actually showing that weight that they gave. So what I think ultimately happens is that those things over time, they start to bubble up and you start seeing those in your voice of the customer conversations. You start seeing more and more of those same things to get on the radar and eventually I think that somebody says, okay, well, we've got to take a look at what that is. Maybe they don't have an issue quite with that. We have a different solution that we have to solve that issue, but you start seeing some of those patterns. Did you ever? Just to clarify, that's my question to understand. Yeah, so yeah, the question was, is the narrative more important than the NPS number? And I think that that's really what it is. That's where you get that value. If you can address the narrative, the NPS number's going to change. Yeah. So other questions in the room that we can take her? Should we just go, yeah, go ahead. How do you deal with? You know. Yeah, so the question was managing requests and specific around frequently asked questions, it seems like. So a lot of times, and this is something that Peloton does really well, I think generally you can divide it into specific categories. You're either getting feedback on your core product, you're getting feedback on, like if you're selling a good, it might be feedback on the physical product. And then if you're on the B2B side, you know, it might be around like account management, something like that. So historically, you know, I think if you're using, we'll use Ndesk and Trello as an example, but if you're bringing in all of those pieces of customer feedback in a central view, you should be able to tag them. And I think one interesting way that I've been thinking about, you know, tagging these sort of inbound pieces of feedback is using either once, like tagging it either manual or automated, and what I mean by that is if you're seeing a lot of questions that are duplicates, you know, is there a way for you to automate that response? So for example, we see a lot of customers that are building like a self-serve knowledge base. So if you can automate a lot of those, you know, frequently asked questions, you're going to increase your average response time. You're also able to create basically an FAQs on your website, which is gonna help your customer get answers a lot faster. And then it helps your team really kind of bubble up any sort of frequent themes that are coming up. I think a lot of times, you know, if you're at a startup or in the early days, a lot of times it's really core like product related feedback, you know, your customers are gonna be the first ones that catch any bug. They're going to be the first ones that have really raw and honest feedback on the physical product itself. So I think the more that you can kind of categorize it and automate it, the better. And then make sure that you're bubbling up any sort of themes that you're seeing. Just to add to that, I really think that doing some of these things at scale can be really hard. And I think that pushing individual teams to take ownership of what they own helps to break that scale into like more manageable pieces. Have a question? Yeah, so the question was, how do you prioritize the quantitative and the qualitative feedback? I think that eventually like there is a significant overlap between the two pieces. The quantitative feedback is pointing to, there's a qualitative feedback underlying the quantitative feedback, right? And so when you see, yes, on some of those metrics, you know, kind of driven things there, like we often ask people if they are willing to answer like some follow up questions if we have them. And surprisingly, a lot of people are, they do want to talk about that challenge that they had. And so as soon as we like start seeing that quantitative feedback is a certain direction on something, we'll have a pool of some people we can go follow up with and get more qualitative if that makes sense. Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, so I think there's kind of the question is like, how do you deal with high volumes of verbatims? And I think kind of similar to this question at scale is breaking it down. So for example, with the Trello power ups platform, I still go through those and look at them all the time because I'm the person that I feel or that I think can best address the issues that people have and the issues can be that like, hey, I want this integration or I wish that Trello did this. And so some of that is product feedback that I don't have control over. And I make that clear to the product team and like kind of pass that along. But the things that I do, I really do go through and I tag them and we have some automation set up kind of similar to what Pree was saying. But if I had to do that, if there was a team that had to do that for like all of Trello, I think that we wouldn't have enough people to do all of that. Next question, so how do you include customer feedback and also internal requests into the sequence of work items in a way that still delivers planned features? So I think as we mentioned before, I think what's really interesting about customer feedback is your customers are actively using your product. They're sort of the first beta users and any sort of issues that come up, they're gonna be things that for the most part you're aware of. I think a lot of times what our support team will say is a lot of these feature requests or a lot of the questions that we're getting through from our customers. There are things that are on our roadmap and we're getting to them as soon as possible. I think what's great about kind of listening and categorizing and making sure that we're addressing these things is the more customers that really amplify what they're looking for and really kind of echo those feature requests. That does help us in terms of prioritization, but I would say for the most part, especially if you're a customer obsessed PM, you can sort of anticipate any sort of questions that are gonna come through from your customer. And oftentimes it all comes down to the number of engineers that you have or prioritization internally, but I think as you become a better and better PM, you can basically instantly imagine, okay, we're gonna anticipate this feedback that's gonna come in. Here's the response and here's where it sits on our current roadmap. Yeah, and I think that transparently at Trello, I don't think we've quite figured this out because I think that it's hard. So I wish that I had a better answer for all of you, but I really think that figuring out how to fit this into planned features can often be a challenge, but I do think that some of the kind of behaviors that we were talking about today about having these customer interviews and those types of things really help to allow the customer voice to come through in a way that doesn't feel at conflict with the roadmap, if that makes sense. Next question is for me here. As partnerships lead, how do you fit feature requests into the PM's list and scheduling? I'm sure that people have a greater challenge at this than I do. I feel very fortunate, the PM who leads the Trello platform actually worked with a lot of the partners prior to me joining and he has been just really incredible to work with because he really understands the value that bringing on new partners and what the partners are looking for onto the platform is something that I think that he has a very high empathy for, which puts me I think in a really unique situation. But I think that ultimately on the platform side of the PM, the platform doesn't exist unless developers are really happy and so within the PM team, our developer advocate and the documentation around our APIs all sits under that product owner, the actual performance of the APIs and all of that also there. And then I work really closely in helping to feed that back. But again, some of the practices that we have there around the Slack community, we have one of those for our entire user base and we actually have a power-ups channel in there. We actually have a separate one for our partners and it's probably one of the most, I think interesting things that we've done with our partners in that like I think I work with a lot of other partners and how they do integrations. We have these constant conversations in Slack between our team and theirs that when those developers are having issues with how something is working, like the person that does the documentation is listening to say, okay, is this a documentation issue? The engineers are there to say, okay, is this something that we can solve? And so they're close enough to that customer voice, which in our case is the partners that they're hearing it as well. So yeah, really kind of practicing what we were preaching there. I can speak to that a little bit on the Zendes side of things. I think the B2B SaaS landscape is very interesting these days. And we can, we have an amazing core product, but most importantly, we know that our integrations need to be world-class, specifically if we wanna compete up market. So I think a lot of times Anthony and I joke or I joke with other partners, like we're not quite sure where our team ends and theirs begins, because we all have the same goals and we wanna provide an amazing customer experience. So if a Trello customer is using Zendesk or a Zendesk customer is using Trello, it's the same customer and we have a shared vision across the board. So the way that that works from sort of a partnership slash PM standpoint is that we need to make sure that everything we're building connects with the technology that you have already. So whether that's an integration to Trello or your current CRM or any tracking analytics, like the role of a partner is very much cross-functional and I think we're all sharing the same customers. So it becomes a really, really exciting role and I think it's a really exciting time in tech as well, where we are constantly being challenged by our partners to build faster and to build deeper integrations. And I think the great thing about the world of SaaS as well is like developers are super smart and our buyers are really smart people and yes, Zendesk is going after a core support buyer, but we need to make sure everything we're building is suitable for a CIO. It's approved by a chief product officer. So we're getting a lot more technical and I think it's really cool to see that the world of partnerships is now like we're actually just like all building together for the purpose of improving the customer experience. This is a great question. So this is kind of where it all got started. So how do you filter valuable feedback from the noise? And I think that in early days, you might not have a real prioritization framework for this. I think if you're a two-man company, if you're in a very early startup, then part of this is just taking in all of the feedback. Like you wanna hear as much about your product as possible cause that's gonna help you iterate and improve over time. What's interesting is as you become more mature as a company, Zendesk, for example, we've been around for 10 years and we're constantly iterating on our core product, but most importantly, you need to have a really strong vision for where you want your product to go. So if we only spoke to our power users, they would likely say, don't change your product, we love it, but internally we knew like, hey, we're 10 years old, we recently rebranded last year and we've launched a series of new products. And part of that was a strategic decision and a vision for our product where we say, our power users aren't asking for this, but we wanna go one to five steps beyond and say this is what we need to build to provide the best possible experience. So I think it really depends on the stage that you're at as a company. And what's really interesting is I come from a performance marketing background and transitioned into a PM. So I'm constantly looking for what can we do that can scale and what can we do that can be automated as quickly as possible. And I think this is one of those topics where it's not something that you can potentially automate, outsource. It's basically you have to spend time and really take in the feedback and then make those strategic decisions that are best for your customer. Sorry, I'm just gonna take the contrarian view of that really quickly is that that question is why we're all here, right? I mean, that's an art separating the signal from the noise, understanding when to listen and when to ignore. Like you can hear all sorts of stories in the Bay Area about people that, people said, oh, that's a terrible idea and gave them like this feedback. They strongly believed in that vision. And if we listened to some of our users, they would ask us for Gantt charts and for Burndown charts and all of these other types of things that they want Trello to do. They want to make it into their project management tool and that's not what we are. You can do project management on Trello but it's so much more than that. And so that signal I think can feel so like crisp and clear sometimes and you still have to maybe ignore it. And so I think that that's kind of why we're all here is like figuring out how to take the signal of what the pain is in the world that we think that our products can solve and trying to filter everything else out. So it's hard to do. This question from Steve, have you tried capturing and categorizing problem requests to avoid early assumptions? I have not. That sounds really interesting though. I can absolutely see why that could lead to the assumptions being built into the product from day one. Do you do anything like that at Send Desk? Not that I'm aware of. Yeah. I think that's a really good question. Yeah, I think that's a great question. I'd like to learn a little bit more about that. How do you deal with conflict? Conflicting user feedback and how do you prioritize various needs? Yeah, that you're kind of speaking a little bit to that Trello experience. We have so many different users, people using Trello at home and at work at small companies and large companies in every single role. And it's made it really, I think it's made it really hard, but I think that the vision has always to be something that anybody can use for anything. And sticking to that vision and being ruthless around reducing complexity, not allowing kind of more advanced features to come into the product experience early on. We built Power Ups as a way to people to extend the value or extend the use of Trello for their unique use case and putting that in the integrations and Power Ups rather than trying to scare anybody away when they first getting started. Like, ah, what are all these things that I'm like supposed to be adding on to my product? So I think we get conflicting user feedback all the time. We know what we want to do with Trello and sometimes we've made mistakes. We have really held to our guns on something and not listened to user feedback and eventually come to realize that because they just don't go away. Either you start losing customers or they start getting louder. So I think that that's some of our experience. Yeah, I think it's really interesting. I think with conflicting feedback, a lot of times you have to go one or two layers deeper. So if a user comes to you and says, I don't like your product, like is that sufficient feedback? Not really, it's not very actionable. So it's almost like how do you basically distill it down into a core insight and how does that core insight tie back to your broader strategy? So I think one of the things that you learn over time as a product manager is you have to go really deep. So you have to go deep on the product, but in parallel, you also have to go very deep on the user and your understanding of the user will grow over time. I think when you spend more time with product, like the more time you spend at a company, the more deep you go in terms of, not only understanding of the product, but also like you'll just be in meetings with amazing PMs who know the ins and outs of the user. And the reason for that is they've spent a lot of time understanding motivations and understanding and anticipating any sort of challenges or feedback that's going to come up. And I think that's definitely a learned skill. And I think whether you're a product manager now or if you've had a lot of exposure to product managers, you can definitely tell when someone is customer obsessed. And a lot of times that really comes down to spending a lot of time with the user and not just taking the feedback at face value, but really like digging into what are the motivations and what have been the actions that have caused that piece of feedback. Thank you. So this question on top seems to me that support cases are a bit biased to customers with issues. Issues, how do you adjust cases, insight to ensure actions are representative, representative for the general audience? I don't, again, work in the either the support or the product side, but I think that I tend to agree with this. Like sometimes you are going to hear questions or hear most of the loudest voices, kind of the squeaky swill, you're gonna like end up trying to drive what that is. I think that balancing that out with one, what your product vision is to some of the, some opportunities for positive experiences and hearing from people about what they love about your product and some of that community. And in other case studies, ultimately balances some of that out. We do get love letters though in support. So we get people writing in all the time that tell us how great something was. And so that also helps to validate when things are going well, what they're really latching on to. And then final question, do you weigh feedback based on where it comes from? Bigger, more important customers versus new and smaller ones? Another really great question. I think that the answer for us is it really depends. There are things that we have fixed that definitely like I think have been related to pains that specific types of larger customers have had. But I think that by having a separate product, Trello Enterprise like has solved that for them rather than having to worry about it for everybody else. But I think that really goes back to the, Trello is for anything that we often, like just as an anecdote, there's a thing called a due dates in Trello. And, or maybe it's called calendar, but there's like a, you put a calendar date on a card. And what's that? Yeah, yeah. And I couldn't remember if there's a calendar power up in those due dates, but there, you put that date on there and after the date would pass, it would just still show as being read. And we were kind of questioning, well, like does everybody that puts a date on a card actually need to be marking something as being done? And so I think that was like one of the examples that we had feedback from people that they want to mark things as done in Trello. And so over, like I think of course of months or maybe even years, like hadn't figured out what the right solution was. And part of that was we weren't sure like whether everybody wanted to do that and didn't want to introduce something to Trello that would be specific to one kind of use case. And I think that, so ultimately we realized that people, it's not necessarily about marking it done, it's more about that it said this red overdue thing on it that was scaring people away from that date or like frustrated because like the dates, they had finished whatever it was or that date didn't need to be red, it just, the date had passed. And so we allowed them ability to kind of to mark it as being done, but more of as a way to like change the color and not just as specific to that use case. So. Yeah, I think when it comes to prioritizing feedback, I would say that, it depends on the size of the company and what your objectives are. I think that you will hear of companies that are moving up market or trying to sell a more premium good and potentially they do prioritize feedback coming from larger companies, but I think it all comes down to tracking and measurements. So if you are like you said, if you're tagging all of your inbound feedback and you're noticing trends, it all comes down to really identifying trends and really as a PM understanding what's going to drive the greatest impact for the business and help the widest kind of breadth of customers. So I think just anecdotally, Zendesk is in a very interesting position right now where we've been around for 10 years and we're moving up markets. So a lot of our core focus is really like taking over the enterprise. So a lot of the features and a lot of the things that we're building, like we are building more enterprise grade features and we have to think about HIPAA compliance or a lot of these things that matter for big companies, but simultaneously we also need to make sure that we're staying very close to startups and to our most innovative customers because if we're only building for up market then we'll quickly become essentially SAP Oracle, like we'll be one of those traditional tech companies which all of us in this room are laughing, but that's the true story. As we move up market, we can't forget startups because startups are innovative and they'll challenge us in really new and interesting ways because I think that the nature of a startup is to ask tough questions and to disrupt an industry. So the feedback from startups definitely keeps us on our toes.