 All right, look, it's almost impossible to gain body fat for meeting a lot of protein. All right, guys, let's talk about this for a little bit. I don't disagree with that. I remember the first time that I kind of figured this out. We've talked on the show when we pieced together the process foods tip, telling clients to stop eating processed foods. And I wish I remember if it was something that I kind of did myself first, and I was like, oh, wow, why don't this work with clients? And your baked potato thing that you always talk about, try eating four or five baked potatoes with nothing on it, and it's impossible, but yet you could crush a bag of potato chips. Proteins, it's similar that way. I think that's the one caveat to that, what you're saying, is that if it's whole foods that you're getting that protein, because you could probably get fat off of eating processed foods that are full of protein. Protein snickers bars now. Right. What are we talking about? Right. Well, so there's two things to this. One is what you're saying. Protein is extremely satiating. It's really hard to just ovary a lot of protein because it just, you hit a wall, you don't want anymore. This is what, if you ever talked to anybody who's ever done a carnivore diet, they'll tell you like, I just, I can't eat anymore. That's the biggest issue is really trying to be able to eat enough calories. It's really difficult. You get so full and it's just like, it's just too much to worry. I'm not even hungry after. Well, do you guys remember when we all went on the ketogenic diet way early on? So before we had, I think it was before we even had Dom on the show and we were, it was just getting kind of popular. And we did a high protein version. And we, and then we all decided we'd run it and we'd do it. And I would just happen to be in the middle of like still, I think just wrapping up competing even. You were trying to bulk. And I was like, okay, well, let's just try and do this. And I remember I just, how hard it was. And that's kind of what made me kind of throw in the towel was dude, I just, I'm not able to eat 5,000 calories of just proteins and fats. Like you fill up so fast. Yeah. So there's two parts to this. So first off, I do want to be clear. If you eat more calories and you burn, you will gain body fat. That's science. Right. That's science. But here's why I made that statement about protein. One is what we just talked about. It's incredibly satiating. So it's hard to overeat protein in comparison to carbohydrates and fats, but number, especially carbohydrates, but number two, they've done studies where they've bumped people's calories through carbohydrates, fats or just proteins. And at the end of these studies, what they found is that the, the increase in calories that came from proteins resulted in less fat gain and some muscle gain. That's even if Cal or all things equal. Yeah. That's interesting. Yeah. Now, now here's the speculation. The speculation is one protein has this incredible thermic effect. So eating more protein means your body tends to burn more calories. So the, you know, the calories in versus calories out, like that rule of thermodynamics, it still stands, right? It's a rule of physics, but eating a lot of protein tends to change the calories outside of the formula. Eating more of it tends to make your metabolism burn more calories. And then the second part is we all know that. And again, this is clear in studies as well. Eating a higher protein diet tends to lead to more muscle gain. And what does more muscle do? It burns more calories. So if you're eating a lot more protein versus other, the other macro nutrients and your calories are high, you're less likely to gain body fat in comparison to the others. And or it's going to be hard to eat a lot more when it's just protein. Is there still information out there that's like, sort of deterring people from this in terms of like the mTOR and like cancer sort of being a scare with that? Yeah. So, so mTOR is mammalian target Repa Myosin. I think I'm saying that right. And this, Cause I remember these things. Yeah. It's just mammalian. Yeah. Listen, I don't remember a lot of things. It's funny. It's like, I'll be with my family and they'll ask me certain questions. I'll be like, I have no idea. And I'll remember something. Or we'll have a meeting and 30 minutes later, he forgets what he's supposed to do afterwards. Completely. And this is skill. That's good for podcasting. So thank you God for this. Help me find this. Oh, it's perfect. This career. Yeah. Anyway. So this particular, you know, mTOR signals muscle growth, but it drives the growth of a lot of things. If you spike mTOR when you have cancer, you'll probably accelerate the growth of cancer. So people will say things like high protein diets will increase your risk of cancer. Not true. By the way, carbohydrates also feed cancers and even fats in some cases, although not as often can feed some cancer. So there's a difference between a environment where cancer is present and in a healthy environment and a healthy environment. And by the way, if you have cancer, a lot of things change. There's a lot of things that you need to change and modify. In some cases they'll put you on hormone blocking drugs and other things, which normally would be a bad thing. So that's the thing to consider. But when you're healthy and the studies with healthy people, high protein diets are not only perfectly healthy. In fact, a study just came out showing that in older populations, higher protein diets are connected to lower causes of all, to lower risks, excuse me, of all cause mortality. Again, probably because higher protein diets result in more strength gains or at least strength preservation. And we know now how strongly connected strength is to all cause mortality as you age. The stronger you are when you're older, the less likely you are to die from, you know, from all different causes. This is where that tip comes from too, where we tell people to eat protein first. So you sit down and you get your plate instead of filling up on the bread or the chips. Just eat the protein, protein and fats first, and then vegetables, and then move to like your starchy carbs. And many times just by telling somebody the order that they eat like that will limit the amount of carbohydrates and calories that they consume. And it's been like one of those tips that, and it just, it's a psychological thing too, because you're not telling the client you can't have the carbs or you can't have the chips or you can't have the bread. It's just, hey, go eat your protein and fats and veggies first, and then go ahead and enjoy that. And many times what ends up happening by the time you get to those, you're just full. Yeah, I think there's also this myth that, and there's some truth to this, that because humans evolve for the vast majority of human history where food was scarce, that we evolved to just eat when food is in front of us. And we'll just eat ourselves to death. There's a little bit of truth to that, but in reality, but the truth is there's a lot of falseness in that, in the sense that our bodies even back then had safeguards against overeating, because it would have killed you back then just like it does today. Maybe not obesity, that would have been much more difficult to accomplish, but like overeating and damaging your digestive system or causing yourself to feel sick. So, you know, we do this hunt, we kill this animal or we come across this, you know, naturally growing tree with fruit on it. It was still detrimental for us to just eat until we made ourselves sick even back then. So, we have these natural safeguards and it's satiety and we hit it, but the way we get around it now is we take different flavors and foods and combine them in ways, usually engineer them in ways to make you want to make you eat even more and more, to kind of get past that barrier, because those barriers that we have evolved with whole natural foods and evolved with where sugar was quite rare. I mean, tell me where you would find sugar in nature, not with like modern agriculture, none of that stuff. If you're... It's fruit. Fruit, but barely. Like you might find some berries. They're bitter for the most part. Yeah, or an apple. And apples back then were like full of seeds and lots of fiber. I remember seeing an article that like compared like our fruit today versus fruit just like 100 years ago. Did you know that... Dramatically different. You can look at old paintings from the Renaissance. Like bananas and stuff. Yeah, and they're sliced open. Don't even look the same. No, bananas are full of seeds. Apples are very little flesh. You know, fruit was way less packed with sugar. That's just how occurred in nature. Now we bred them to make them like super delicious. So do you not think that after a big hunt back in the days that you wouldn't gorge out on the food, or you just couldn't because it's all meat that you were consuming? And so because that it wasn't super palatable, it wouldn't hijack those until you were satisfied. Yeah, because you definitely would do that. That would be silly. If you don't eat for a week and then finally you get a kill, everybody is eating as much as they possibly can probably to until they are almost feel sick. Yes, but the those barriers that satiety signal that pallet fatigue kicked in. So you'd eat and eat and eat like man, I can't eat anymore. Now what you... And this is from looking at studies of modern hunter-gatherers. The foods that are prioritized or the parts of the animal that are prioritized tend to be the organs and the fatty parts. So we would eat those first, obviously the most nutrient dense. Like animal liver is so packful of nutrients, it's like the nature's multivitamin. So we'd eat that first, eat the fatty parts first, and then all the lean tissue was left for later on or if it went bad it went bad. I mean in fact, there's something called, I think I talked about this once in a podcast, I think it's called rabbit starvation or I think that might be the term. Right. Trappers. Trappers up in Alaska, right? Yeah, or even in the west. Because the meat's not fatty enough? Yeah, they would catch lots of rabbits and they'd still starve. You've seen that on that alone show. Oh yeah. You've seen that, I remember like one of the seasons the guy got like a buffalo or something, like a really lean animal. No, it was an elf. A moose? Yeah, and the fact got stolen. Yeah, it wasn't an elf, it was like either a moose or like a buffalo. I saw that. Yeah, it was one of those that are like really lean meats and you would think that that's enough meat for, I mean that's enough technically meat for someone to live off of for a year and it still wasn't enough for him because he ended up, I remember like the wolverines got his fat in the liver and so all he had was this lean meat and then he was like starving. Yeah, I remember that. He took all the fats and he separated him and put him in this like, he thought like animals wouldn't get to it and the freaking wolverine got to it, stole it all. And all he had left was lean meat. How frustrating would that be? You're going to starve to death and you have all this meat. Yeah, and it's right there in front of you. It just makes me think. I mean how it's just so interesting where we are now where we can select like vegetable based meats or we can engineer these kind of meats that aren't even from animals. How do you even get satiated from that? How do you even get that signal? It's like to me it's interesting like is it mainly from nuts and from beans and like that's like for like a vegan. Like that's got to be really difficult to ever feel like you're fully satisfied. Have you ever seen the ingredient list on the beyond meat? Doug maybe shouldn't pull it. Well it's all like vegetable oils and there's like 50 ingredients. Yeah, no it's crazy. It's like super things. It's like super signs. Now how long do you think you need to be like monk like before you become in tune naturally to those systems? They're there still right? Like and I feel like we talk about all the time about trying to become aware of those natural signs that your body is trying to tell you no don't eat this or you're full already. Like you know how long do you think it's for somebody who has like no connection at all to them and distract it all the time. Like how long would they have to be like monk like to get reconnected to them? I think it's a constant practice dude. Well it is because you're taking insults from the opposite side right? The TV, the phone, the you know stress, work like. And then you've got all this incredible food all around you and it's super tasty and inexpensive and really easy to get. I think it's a constant practice dude. Is there stuff to support like people who live like in rural areas versus in like cities that would technically used to be not anymore. It used to be that way because rural areas didn't have access but now our markets are so damn effective that people are obese everywhere. In fact in certain cities people are less obese because the cities were designed before cars were invented. So people walk around. Yeah. So it's like doesn't matter dude where you're at now you're going to be you're you've got this food accessible and you're going to and it's going to be a problem. So yeah let's look at this ingredient list Doug when he pulls it up. What is that show here? Let's see. Water, pea protein, expelopress, canola oil, coconut oil, rice protein, natural flavors which is I don't know how many other things cocoa butter, mung bean protein, methyl cellulose, potato starch, apple extract, pomegranate extract, salt, potassium chloride, vinegar, lemon juice, concentrate, sunflower, lecitin, beet juice, extract. The beet juice by the way is to make it look bloody. Yeah. Isn't that funny? Yes. I'm not a fan of this food by the way. That's why I know you're bringing it up to make a point. Like if you look you flip me around it's just me. But like when you just break you say all those things for the most part. Most of those things are in a lot of food. It's the fact that there's all the combinations. I get it. I get it. But I just I think it's a weak argument. It's a weak argument. I agree. I guarantee if you and I were to extract everything that's in there you'd be like oh yeah I eat that and other things or I've had that like they're not it's not that horrific. You know it's not as bad as if I turn around my rockstar and look at what's in the back of that. You know that's probably a lot worse for me than this thing is totally. And that's kind of like the go to argument that everybody leans on is like look at this there's 70 things in here versus one. No yes it's not. It doesn't really compare to actual meat I think is the point. Well it's not and that to me that's a better argument is the how nutrient dense meat is. And I think that would be a better way to explain is look look at all the health benefits you get from eating real meat and show that versus okay you can put all these things in here to try and emulate this but look at the value of this versus to me that's a better argument than the liquids in it like scared tactic to how much stuff you know it's funny it's the demise of how we value meat really started happening once we started separating ourselves from the process of raising and killing me as soon as we separated that you had these huge you know slaughter factories with animals being you know run through and treat a certain way and pump full of hormones or whatever because we're not connected to it and then people never kill an animal themselves so they have no respect for it and they go to the grocery store and they just see the meat in the plastic and then because they have no respect they don't understand the value and so like I'm not gonna eat meat anymore and a lot of people run into problems with that because you have to be more you can definitely be vegan and be healthy for sure you just have to be much more planned and it also wouldn't be possible without modern grocery stores and modern markets they're just so much variety now you can get all the nutrients you need whereas you know a thousand years ago you would starve you would starve if you didn't eat any meat so it's you know it's really interesting