 I'm so excited to be here with Jen Loudon honored Jen to have you here. I'm just gonna like have you share your wisdom about writing in the short time that we have together because I know a lot of folks watching this or listening to this would love to be a successful writer And when I say successful, I don't necessarily just mean the fact that I just checked your latest book that came out not too long ago, you already have 500 Amazon reviews. And that's no small thing. I'm like, I try so hard and I get like big marketing 30 reviews and I put out a book, 500 reviews, whatever. And of course your other books are massive bestsellers too. But that's one level of success but also are successful I think because you write consistently. You are always in the practice and publishing, you know, and so anyway, so I am happy for you to be here for those who don't know. Jen, you have been known in part as I guess the self care queen I mean you really helped to popularize the idea of self care it's big, you know the world knows the idea now, and you've been running a lot of writing programs you consult and coach, you know, well known people on their on their writing projects. And so here we are get a bit of a chance to pick your brain about writing so the first question I have for you is, I mean, having worked with so many aspiring writers. What is like one of the common blocks, and you can start with anywhere you want but it was one of the common blocks that people go I just can't I can't seem to get myself to write consistently or to publish. What comes to mind for you is one of the common blocks. Oh gosh, I think they're all related to not actually knowing how to write that works for you. I have written professionally for 30 years, as in made my living, and I have been writing for 40 years. I almost quit. And I almost quit right before the title for my first book the woman's comfort book which sort of started that whole self care comfort self nurturing conversation in the wider world came to me actually moments before it came to me. So I think the thing that goes to the heart of so many of our fears and blocks and confusion right it feels like a sense of confusion is that we haven't learned how to write in a way that really works for our lives and our brains like you even said the word consistent. I have a lot of people who come to my writing program or writing programs and they'll be like I want to have a consistent writing practice and my question is always, why. Why because someone told you on the internet, and maybe really do but how does it fit your life what is consistent get you. I think the first thing I want people to do in learning how to write in a way that really works for them is to connect with that deep why what do they want out of it. I think George we're afraid to be selfish about our writing and we have to be selfish before we can be generous. And what do you mean by selfish without writing I mean, because if we're publishing. I think publishing is a generous act. It totally because it's so much. Well so much hard work right that went into the final product that we're talking about a book but even social media posts can be opening our heart when you're being vulnerable and so what does that mean to be selfish. Do you talk about this so beautifully and your work that I, you know recommend if you go to my resource page on my website, I have a link to your work because I believe in it so much. Yes, because you know because you're so genuine. I think but you also are really clear when you're doing a social media poster writing your books whatever you're doing, you're clear why you're doing it like I know that you're sharing your wisdom with me and your experience so I can help me grow my business or be more confident on social media etc. But you're also taking, you know, I'm you're doing because you want to do it you have something to say. And I think sometimes maybe perhaps more for people who identify as women, or people who have been, you know marginalized, it's hard to say what I want in here, you know to really have a stand for something and I think that's one of the reasons we get blocked and one of the reasons we don't show up and we don't share our ideas. For example I had a client and one of my writing programs. She has published this book. It's called from love think up, and part of a whole her whole business program, you know business. And for her the big epiphany was my was the author again. It's called her name is think up. I cannot pronounce her last name. Yeah, is a backwards. It's a great book. For her the big epiphany of the why was my creativity can serve my business. Now we all have different stories for her creativity was over here in the sort of silo of holiness and creativity had to be just for very pure things and when she was like, I can be created and build my business together which may like you're so much about that right. I am so much about that but we all have or we can have these stories we have to work through. So I think it really comes down to how do we learn to work with our brains and our lives and it starts with what's it for me. And then from there, we can stretch to connect to the people we want to reach so much more generously. And again, I'm looking at this from a, you know, work a lot with women so it seems to be something that happens a lot for women. Yeah, yeah. And one of the struggles I find and I'd love for you to speak to this is, you know, finding the time right finding the time the energy to do the writing for for women, particularly, but but I would just generally for people who care take. Yeah, who naturally. Like, hey, let me help you with your shoes. Let me, let me, let me support you here before, you know, just why am I, why are you talking about the selfish selfish meaning why you've got to carve out the time so how do you. I'm sure you've seen this it means self care right you champion. So many talks about this for so many years. Now now you're championing writing. Yeah. That's interesting. So, so how does I mean, okay, fine. It's like why what's keeping people from carving out the time. And how do, how do they finally carve out that time when their family needs them or their community needs them or whatever, whatever their job, you know, or whatever is taking a lot of energy. I think there's a number of possibilities. I think one is really comes back to, for me a central idea and central idea that I wrote about in my book why bother, which is if we can't claim our own desires, and I don't mean and my desires are the only thing that matters. So that's what I want, but just in knowing. Wow, I really want this I want to play with words or I want to, I want to write copy for clients or whatever your form of writing right there's so many different ways to write. I want this this matters to me. And by doing it, it gives me something that brings me more alive. I really believe George, that the reason that that our first responsibility as humans is to be as fully ourselves and as fully alive as we can be. And when I look at so much of the, maybe not the big evil that happens in the world, but the small evils that happen in the world. I think so often it's because people don't have anything that matters to them and that brings them alive so I think it's a profound act to say this half an hour alone with my writing or this two hours or whatever it looks like and it can be small amounts of time. It matters to me it fills me up. And, and it matters perhaps to a bigger goal or a desire I have that I want to work towards and that matters to. I also love on, I have a podcast called create out loud and I had Beth Pickens on and she works as an artist kind of consultant. And she said this beautiful thing she said people who are creative, have to create, or their, their, they don't. It's, it's not. It's essential. And when we don't do it. We fall apart like it's it's what fills us up to go out and do those other things in the world our community our caregiving, etc. And we're the only people in the world who have to do something that's really essential to us but we feel like we have to steal the time. And that really blew me away you know it's like forget about stealing the time this is your essential work and if you're working towards it for a professional goal. That's great, but that essential thing counts it matters. Oh, beautiful. And sometimes people carve out that time or do it. And now, lots of other things come up but but you know, so whether we're talking about the resistance, or we're talking about what I'm not feeling inspired right now or creative. I mean carving out the time itself is can be a monumental challenge and then now that we've done that it's like oh, but I'm not feeling it. I'm not feeling it right now. How do you. So for example, I actually you have a writing program where your, your, your clients or students kind of get together and write together, or write writing that same time. What, what, what, what happens if that someone shows up for that time and they don't feel inspired like what do you what do you say to that. So yeah, the program is called right now. Ha ha, right now. Yes. Right now, but right right now. Yes. So one of the things that I teach people and right now and there's a lot of content there's a lot of writing together and there's a lot of repetition so that we can change your brain. So you learn to write the way that you want. A lot of community is that you have to prime the pump. The way that you learn to write in school doesn't work most of the time the way that you see writers work on television and movies. Yeah, the way it works. So if I'm just really come in. Hi, it's time to write the inspire. No, that doesn't work you have to prime the pump. And the way you prime the pump is separating out thinking about what you want to write about doing a cluster map for doing some reading reading over some of the research, having a conversation if you're an extrovert with someone and taping it right. If you don't do that. You have to have something in there before you can sit down to write so for example you'd be a very simple example. I your I try to publish a post slash newsletter every single week I have for 21 years. Right, so sure there's weeks I take off sure there's times we repurpose content because you taught me how to repurpose content. So there's times when they're you know we're doing a launch like right now so we do a bunch of content and sales email things like that, but I have consistently written in addition to nine books in addition to National magazine column coursework all that. And if I just sit down on a Monday morning. I mean I want to go to bed right now right like this is not going to happen, but maybe I haven't thought about it on Sunday or Saturday maybe I was busy or maybe I didn't want to work. So I go on a Sunday morning I'm like, Oh shoot, I got a right. So what I do is I go okay, I have been keeping a notebook with little ideas and things that feel interesting or juicy. So I look, I pick one, and then I go for a run. And I take that as a question what do I want to say about this and I stop repeatedly. Make voice man voice memos with my panting. And then I come home and I eat breakfast and I take a shower so there's a break, and then I sit down to write. There's there's time to prime the pump and we don't think that counts as writing George but it does. It's so important. I love how you described, you know, an example of that priming the pump exercise and it's awesome. It's what it because you're adding in there, you know movement. Yeah, you're, you're adding in there kind of like you're dripping ideas as they come to you you're like you know making that you're anyway it's it's great it's really great so in other words, different people prime the pump in different ways. Yes, so totally. So for example, one of my students and right now the last time she, you know, takes a while to get these concepts and you have to make them your own that's my whole point. So here's the concepts they've been test driven with lots and lots of people, but you have to make them your own so her prime the pump was to go to a cafe and sit down and journal for 10 minutes and then write for 10 minutes and it worked for a while. And then she started to find if I remember right she found that what she would do was spend the whole that she had 20 minutes before work. She would spend the whole time journaling that she didn't. She would have a transition to do the actual writing. So what she did was start journaling on the bus, and then get to the coffee shop have a natural break, order for coffee sit down, and then the, the signal to her body when she stuck down with the coffee or whatever she got was to start writing. So you have to play with it to make it your own right. Some people do it before bed. Some, I had a client in writing program, the same ideas but a little bit more intensive feedback from me she's writing a book about Chinese economic zones. And so for her was, it was looking over research right she has this huge body of PhD research. Yeah, just depends. Yeah, yeah. And let's say they, somebody has gotten the time they've gotten the priming the pump, they're writing, but then there's still doubts about well is this good enough. Yeah, no, no it's not good enough. It is such a silly question that we have, we are so focused on outcome in this culture and yes I like I said I publish all the time I write content to build my business, I need outcome, but I promise you and this has been so hard one for me, it has cost me so much. The more you focus on outcome, the more you will lose your energy your creativity and your originality and it's happening on your brain, because you're looking at the, everything about that goal is taking you away from what you need to focus in the moment. So everything about writing itself needs to be in the process. And then when you're done for the day you can set back and go, Okay, you know, I have to publish this tomorrow. So tomorrow morning I'm going to schedule an hour to rewrite or I'm going to send this right, you know you build in other processes, if you have to keep producing. That over outcome focus is basically intrinsic motivation, which doesn't work until you're really close to the goal and then sometimes it can work so we have to keep finding that desire that intrinsic motivation, and we have to let it be crappy George. My first drafts and I'm used to that. I cut 75 pages from just the beginning of that book. That's really. So when, you know, what when I hear writers say that, and like, Oh my God, doesn't it feel like a waste of time and energy. Like what's your how how do you relate to that calling of all that stuff. I would say and in the sounds like a pitch to work with my program, but it really does. It's really worthwhile to have somebody if you're working on a big project, it's fine to throw it away three paragraphs of a blog post. But having a coach or having somebody who's working alongside of you to help you will save you on some of that. And some of it is just part of the process you are not cutting a dress to a pattern, where you can make sure you have this much waste. It's just not the way writing work so pre planning and working through vision sheets that I use can really help. I did that. I did that work and I still produce stuff some of it I used for marketing. Some of it clarified my ideas. I mean some of it you just gotta like make peace with you know. Yeah, wow. And given your experience I mean in publishing publishing publishing so much but books, but blog posts content online etc. I mean to you it's so normal to to publish now I think I'm just thinking about the members that you work with like in right now for example. Are they usually publishing their writing or are they kind of writing it for for their well I guess you'd be writing it for your job that's publishing to a smaller team or where are they writing for themselves like what's the relationship of publishing to most of the people that you're working with. It really varies so right now is a program that has people of all genres and all levels there might there's there's someone who's returning for the second time. She's a climate scientist she's a climate professor, and she's working on something that she does very much want to publish, but she is still determining what this project in this book is going to be about. Then there's someone else who's like, I just want to, like I've always wanted to write I haven't written a long time I really want to get back into it I don't know what I want to do with it I don't even know what genre I want to write in right so they might like publish one thing on medium. There's other people who are writing legacy for their family they're like I really want to make sure that my kids and my grandkids and my sisters don't lose these stories but we can still work so much to make that so much more readable and wonderful for those people so it really depends that's that right now is a program that that works for everybody for people with with big goals and also people are like, I would just love it if I could show up and get words on the page and learn how to love them. Yeah, and for some of you who are watching this right now right now. You know the program is coming up in well as of our recording it's coming up in a couple of weeks from now. And your, I know you're planning to hopefully redo it again. A few months after that. So I will have the links below but what. So you kind of described a bit about the types of people who might come into the program what they might do it for what tell us like what's special about this kind of program. So, well I'm just thinking like, what's what are people's alternatives actually I mean a lot of people who are listening and watching like my alternative is to not write. Or, or, or I guess the alternative is to get a writing coach, right. Yeah, absolutely some people go through this program and then get a writing coach. You know, I created this program George, because I mean I've been teaching writing for 20 years so I started off just doing a writing retreat a year. And then, you know, over time just, you know I've always studied writing as I said I started writing four years ago. And over the these 20 years there's all these things I've learned that I really seen either nobody else talking about some of them, or not talking about in this way or not putting them together in this way. So I really am getting to the point in my life from. If I died. Would I have to have I have I said what I want to say on this subject so right now, I did my damnedest to create a content content it's been it's audio and transcript same, you know, same lesson that really encapsulates as beautifully with as much humor, and as as I could what are the things I really think matter to know about writing. And then I created a program of support around it because I really believe that people are lonely, and that we need each other and we need our mirror neurons. And I love coaching people. I love teaching. So I always got to have a live element so there's live retreats in it, where you generate a lot of material together there's live coaching. And then you have me on call during the week on the forum to, I'm very active answering questions so there's a lot of support. There's small groups so people can get to know a small group of like minded people I take a lot of care of how I put people together so it's a very multi layered program because that's how I like to teach. That's awesome and just to clarify library treats at this time on on. Right, because of the damn cold that physical distance physically distance. It'd be very fun would they. Yeah, totally. I just somebody on one of my Facebook friends just said oh I'm working on a book project could could use some feedback would you recommend. I said I don't know Jen does the one on one book coaching at this time, but she'd be great with someone like that be great for the program for this program like in other words, how much feedback can one expect in this kind of program. Yeah and right now I don't, I don't read people's pages I also do a mastermind, which is already started for the year. Yeah, well again the thought that you actually get me to read your pages. It's a cost more. I do a little bit of individual coaching for just like big projects or projects already have contracts that kind of thing. If somebody has a book in mind right now can can work for them. I would need they would need to, I would just need to email back and forth with them about where where they are in the project. Yeah, how much they know about it. And sometimes you will feel like they're, they think they're farther along than they are and they go through some basics can really help them accelerate. Do they get people in the right now program do they get feedback from one another or is that is that a possibility or. Is that a possibility after the program. Okay, cool. Yeah, we don't like people to give feedback over the three months because sometimes people give it unskillfully. And then they hurt each other stealing. So yeah, my name teach everybody how to give feedback, or after right now, then people stay friends and stay. Yeah, yeah, that's that's great. I mean I in the three month program. It's a three month program. Yes. Yeah, it's plenty plenty to do. Get into the structure and the practice of writing, doing it consistently the creativity that overcoming the blocks etc anything else you want to say about right now program for someone who's thinking about it. Oh, um, of course put the link below so people can check out. Yeah, I think the most important thing. I go back to that moment when I functionally did quit writing I said to a friend who I was very jealous of. I had not gotten a screenwriting deal and I had not gotten the screenwriting deal and I said to her you know I'm going to quit writing for a while. I want to help you in that moment. I want to help you in that moment to know that writing doesn't have to hurt. I want to make writing easier for you. I want I want you to find more joy and more pleasure, and I want you to write more right now. So any kind of parting words of wisdom for for the aspiring writer from what you call all aspiring right. I mean it doesn't matter what you've done every project, every blog post every article every book is new. I think the most important thing we can learn is the tools that work for us that we adjust to ourselves and self trust. To really trust that you do have something to say, and to really trust that those feelings and those callings and those images and those ideas matter, but here's the biggest thing I can tell people is if you don't allow yourself time to pay attention to those without multitasking without distracting yourself. They can't become real to you they can't build, and they can't take on a life. So at the very least, listening to this you're like I don't want right now I can't afford right now or whatever. Please give yourself that time to really listen and trust you have something to say because I know you do. That is never the issue. It's beautiful and for those who are interested in checking out the right now program WRIT now with Jen Loud and please go ahead and check out the link below. Yeah, Jen just thank you for your work and the passion that you bring forth for the passion you bring forth in your members and your students clients put it on paper so thanks. Thank you George for being you you're a wonderful mentor to me and I love reading your stuff and I learned so much from you so thank you. Oh my gosh thank you so much for saying that. Thanks Jen.