 So thanks to everyone for joining this evening. As you all know, we're going to be talking about Trinity campus tonight and specifically some potential zoning changes that our Planning Commission will be considering this summer. I am Megan Tuttle. I'm the Director of Planning for the City of Burlington. And we have a number of folks here from UVM and the city. We're going to do some quick introductions in just a second. But I do want to say that for those of you that are attending to hear and to share your input about this topic, if you've attended other city meetings in the last couple of years, you may be more familiar with a Zoom webinar format. We are actually using a Zoom meeting format tonight. So if you would like to have your video on, you're welcome to. That way we can see you. And it feels a bit more like a public meeting. We do ask that you keep yourself on mute until later when we get to some question and discussion time. But feel free if you would like to turn on your video and participate that way. We will have a couple of interactive polls that we would like to get your feedback on throughout this presentation, just so we know a little bit more about who you are as well. Since we're still in this virtual meeting format. So be on the lookout for those. But we will. And you heard that we are recording this meeting tonight as well. This meeting will be posted later on the city's website. And will be available for you to share with friends and neighbors who may not have been here at this evening. So with those logistics out of the way, I'm going to go ahead and invite our city and UVM team to introduce themselves and we'll get started on some of the material we have prepared for you for this evening. Richard, would you like to start for the UVM team? Good evening. I'm Richard Kate, Vice President for Finance Administration at UVM. OK, next I'm Lisa Kingsbury. I'm the Associate Director of Planning and Planning Design and Construction at UVM. Hi, everybody. I'm Wendy Koenig. I'm the Director of Government Relations at the University. Good evening. Joe Spidell, Local Government and Community Relations. All right, thanks to the UVM team. Jillian, would you like to go next? Sure, thank you, Megan. My name is Jillian Nanton, Assistant Director for Community Engagement, Neighborhoods and Workforce Development in CEDO with the city of Burlington. Good evening, everybody. Charles Dillard, Principal Planner, Office of City Planning with the city of Burlington. We'll go over to you, Brian. Good evening. It's Brian Pine, the Director of the City's Community and Economic Development Office. Good to be with you all tonight, virtually, if that's yeah. And we do have another member of the Planning Department here, Sarah Morgan, who's helping us out. Hey, sorry about that. Sorry, I'm relating. I'm Sarah. I'm in the Planning Department as a planner. All right, so we will actually put up a quick question or a couple of quick questions. We've introduced ourselves, but we also want to know a little bit more about who all of you are. So we have a Zoom poll that should be popping up on your screen. And we want to know a bit about you in terms of where you live in the city and what your relationship is to the Trinity campus. So we'll give you just a minute to share about yourself there. It looks like a little over half of you have shared a message or have shared your responses to those questions. It looks like many of you live in Wards 1 and 8, so our neighbors of the Trinity campus. And as you indicated, you are a neighbor. We do have some students and alumni as well as employees here as well. So thank you, Sarah, for sharing that poll. I think we'll go ahead and close that off now. And we'll move into our agenda for tonight. So we have put together a presentation to share some information with all of you about the Trinity campus. We're going to talk a bit about planning and longstanding goals for campus development and some things that have been done in recent years related to those goals. We'll share some information about the Trinity campus today. And then we'll transition into a discussion about UVM's plans for the Trinity campus or their forthcoming plans for the Trinity campus and how that relates to a zoning amendment that has been shared with the Planning Commission. So I'm going to start sharing a presentation. And one thing I'll say is that Lisa and I are going to present this together. And we hope that it will be seamless. We thought it'd be a little bit more entertaining for all of you if we just presented together rather than giving you two presentations tonight. So we'll be passing the mic back and forth over the next few minutes to share this information with you. And hopefully it'll go smoothly. So can everyone see my screen? Great. So starting with why we're here, why we're talking about Trinity campus, we wanted to talk about planning in our community and how our community's plans contemplate the institutions within Burlington. Our citywide plan, as well as many other plans and other specific action plans, have long included guiding principles for campus growth and development and have also identified specific actions for both the city and the institutions, as well as others, to help facilitate those goals for campus development. And many of these include the Trinity campus specifically. Plan BTV is our citywide plan. And it identifies the Trinity campus within the parts of our community that we could facilitate growth in the future. Specifically, Trinity campus is identified as one of those places, because it's on campus, that can help accommodate the growth of the institutions themselves, of UVM in particular, both for student housing, as well as for other academic development related to the institutions. This part of UVM's campus is also very important in the context of our citywide plan because of its location along Pullchester Avenue. It's in a part of the city that is along a corridor that is also planned for improvements to make it more walkable, bikeable, and transit-friendly. And as a result, is a part of our community where our plan really identifies opportunities for new homes, new places for people to work, new businesses to be located, so that it can take advantage of the accessibility of those transit opportunities. In addition to our citywide plan, we have the city, the city council, boards and commissions have adopted other plans that dive deeper into the weeds of housing issues, campus growth issues, neighborhood relations, and especially neighborhoods around the campuses, and have included specific agreements and commitments on behalf of both the community, the city, and the institutions for how to facilitate campus development. So what you see here on the screen are just some examples of some of the notable policies and agreements that have been put in place in collaboration with the institutions that have helped us to actually realize our goals of more growth on the institution's campuses. These have ranged everywhere from city-level policies that have identified the goal to create 1,500 new beds of student housing, both for UVM as well as Champlain College, on and off campus, to strategies to help facilitate neighborhood relations in neighborhoods near campus. Many of these plans, though, have specifically called out the role of Trinity Campus in helping us facilitate these goals, looking at the Trinity Campus zoning in particular, and collaborating with one another to identify opportunities for Trinity Campus to evolve to meet more of our housing needs. So this is a little bit about the policy and the framework that guides campus development from the city side. And I'm going to let Lisa talk a little bit more about some of the things that UVM has done within these goals. Thanks, Megan. So as you saw in the previous slide, you did have a city and UVM housing agreement that was signed in 2009. Please ignore my phone ringing in the background, it just started ringing. There were a number of things that the agreement has It was 2009, 2020, but we wanted to just take a note of some of the things from that agreement that have been accomplished, of course, one of the most important ones being to construct new student housing. And we've had three major projects constructed since that time. The 699 bed project was actually not part of the agreement that was done outside of it, but it was done in that timeframe. 163 beds were created on Trinity campus, converting Macaulay Hall from an administrative building to residential use that opened in 2009. And 400 beds of apartment style housing, that's Redstone lofts that was constructed and opened on Redstone campus in 2012. Other pieces of that agreement were to continue to provide housing, to meet enrollment needs, to work to better identify the number and location of our off-campus students. We've done a lot of work with our registrar's office, requiring students to give us their local addresses, having software in place that makes sure that the address that they give us is an accurate address. And we're really getting much better information now than we did prior to 2009. And then working with the city to continue to look at additional sites for new housing as Megan mentioned that's been kind of carried through to a number of agreements that we've had in place and worked together to address impediments to construct new facilities. And then of course to continue to work to address the impact of students on neighborhoods. And I'm sure a lot of you here tonight are familiar with the work of Gail Shampnoy and her staff at the Office of Student and Community Relations. They've been doing this work for a really long time. They do a lot of neighborhood building and they work with neighbors to address conflicts. But then we also have other groups, city and UVM groups. We have a mapping group that addresses kind of problem properties throughout the city. There's the Community Coalition, which is a larger group that meets, I think, quarterly throughout the academic year. That includes students and staff and faculty and people from Champlain and people from the city. And so we have a lot of people who are working on those issues to address the impact on neighborhoods. And this showing the accounting for enrollment providing housing to meet enrollment needs. This chart is a little bit different than the one that we usually show. This is showing the departure from the 2009 base year. So we signed the agreement in 2009. You can see in 2010 immediately had the 163 beds added from Macaulay Hall that actually opened in 2009. And the agreement had a base year of counting enrollment from fall of 2009. So this is just showing for each year what was the departure in our undergraduate enrollment. And that's what you're seeing in blue from that base year and then what was the departure from our housing capacity from that base year, those are the numbers that you're seeing in green. So you can see in blue enrollment has it's gone down, it's come back up, it does have a tendency to fluctuate. We were 2012 to 2016, we were actually under that base year pretty significantly for a couple of years there. And then it started coming back up in 2017. But you can see from the green bars that the housing capacity has kept up pace with that enrollment trajectory. 2021, that's this past fall, it is getting a little close. And that's part of one of our goals as we look to Trinity to build more undergraduate student housing as well as graduate student housing, which we'll talk about a little bit, is to make sure that we can withstand those fluctuations. One thing I did want to just go back to here in talking about planning for housing for particularly beds for students is that the 2015 Housing Action Plan set a target for both UVM and Champlain students that we wanted to create or help facilitate the creation of 1,500 new beds within our community, both on campus and in off campus locations that were facilitated by the institutions to help support a balance in our housing market among student residents and others seeking housing. In addition to what Lisa had shared about UVM's progress towards these goals, we also know that through the creation of housing at Champlain College, both on campus and in downtown, as well as a couple of private developments that are often leased to students, we've seen about 1,100 new beds created in the city since the 2015 Housing Action Plan was adopted. So not quite that full target, but a significant progress towards that, which really brings us to today and thinking about where we are today in terms of the city's chronic and current housing challenges. Back in December of last year, the mayor announced a new set of housing actions that the city is prioritizing. This was referred to as the Housing as a Human Right Action Plan. Part of this action plan is to identify both, again, those chronic housing challenges that our region and our city have experienced, as well as some of the new and emerging challenges that are exacerbating some of those underlying housing challenges we've experienced. This action plan identified a target, another target for us in terms of housing that we would like to help see created citywide. So this is not just about student beds, but ultimately setting a target for new homes of all types to be created within the city. Ultimately setting a goal of a little over 1,200 new homes that we would like to see created in Burlington. This is really our region's share of a much larger housing need that has been identified in the county. This action plan includes a number of steps that the city and partners are taking, including allocating funding from our American Rescue Plan Act money and other funding sources to be immediately deployed towards some of our most critical and vulnerable housing needs in our community. Facilitating and collaborating, strengthening partnerships that will help to not only get those acute housing needs moving as well as to help develop future housing creation. And then ultimately, and why Trinity Campus fits into this, is really about addressing some of the underlying parts of our city where our zoning ordinance may be limiting or precluding housing from being created and identifying actions that we can take to help facilitate housing development within the city. So Trinity Campus has once again been prioritized as part of that housing plan. As we've begun to talk with the Council Planning Commission and with UVM about what it means for us to look at the zoning for Trinity Campus, we've identified a number of shared goals that we have for the Trinity Campus. First and foremost is just to facilitate the responsible development of undergrad and graduate housing on the campus, both through new housing being created, additional beds being created, as well as through the upgrade of some of the existing beds on that campus. Ultimately, with the goal that the campus becomes a vibrant residential community that is attractive to a wide range of students. And when we say a vibrant residential community, we mean definitely for the folks that are living there, as well as for its relationship to the neighborhoods around it. Through the redevelopment of Trinity Campus, we also share the goals to better utilize the campus to create synergies with some of the planned improvements along Colchester Avenue to make walking and biking safer and more comfortable, to improve some of the intersections. The institutions really want to activate some of the campus open space to make it a more usable place for people that live on the campus. And we share the goal of wanting to see development happen in a way that doesn't add a lot of new parking and traffic to the campus and to this part of Colchester Avenue. Lisa, would you like to share some more about your student preference surveys that are informing this work? Well, yes. So some of you may be aware we were working with a consultant back in 2017 to 2019 doing a market study for both juniors and seniors and also graduate and medical students to have a better understanding of what they are looking for in terms of housing and where they want to be. And those were two separate surveys that we did. We started bringing some of this information out. We did do a presentation to the Ward 1 8 NPA, I think, in December of 2019 and met with the city as well right around that time and then COVID hit. So we obviously were busy working on some other things and now have picked this all back up. So this is just showing the junior-senior preferences for whether they want to be on campus or off campus. And it's not very surprising information. They are very much interested in being off campus. You can see in the pie chart that 71% of the students surveyed said they don't want to be on campus as a junior or senior under any circumstances. But there are some that may be interested in staying if the right housing was there or possibly just for their junior year. And the number one reason that they almost always give when we ask them about this is more independence. It's part of what they want to do. They come to UVM because one of the reasons is because they love Burlington and they want to be downtown. And with their social life, they're looking for a place where they can be able to cook their own food, get off a meal plan. So when we talked to them at the time, we also asked about different areas of campus and where they may want to be. And I actually don't have this on here, I should have. But I will say Trinity at the time ranked very low. Not surprising for undergraduate students, there's not much going on right now at Trinity campus. We do have, as you'll see in a few slides, we do have about 580 students living on that campus right now. But they don't have a dining hall. They have to come to Central Campus to get the full dining hall experience. They don't have a lot of amenities over there. It's just a very quiet campus, not really a place where undergraduates fully desire to be. For graduate students, the information is a little bit different. They actually are very interested in on-campus housing primarily for their first year. A lot of our graduate students, quite a few of them come not really knowing Burlington and not knowing where good areas are to live. They don't really, at that point, they don't know what the transportation options are. And so particularly in their first year, they're interested in having an on-campus option. They're looking for apartment style units. And they are also interested in downtown. But when we talk to them about campus, Trinity is a good location for them. They're right across the street from campus. It's very convenient for students who are often on campus late at night doing their research, doing their work. So their preference is to be in this area. So one of the things that we're looking at is enhancing that sense of community at Trinity. So as we think about potential housing projects on the campus, one of the things that would likely be included in the undergraduate project would be a dining hall so that they have that there. But we're also looking at some of the things that other campuses are doing. And so these are just some examples of small landscape-type projects that could happen to make the campus just a little more enlivened places for students to gather and hang out. It may be an ice rink in the winter. This is even nothing set in stone. These are just things that are happening at other campuses. The topography at Trinity makes sort of an ideal area for an amphitheater-type area for students to gather. You can see down in the bottom left at Carnegie Mellon, they have the outdoor seating with the twinkle lights overhead that people really enjoy. And if you've ever been on campus in nice weather, near the Fleming Museum, where we have the grove of trees with the lamentation statues, that area, those trees are completely covered with hammocks. And students, they all bring their hammocks. So you can see up in the top right at UNC Asheville, they've gotten hammock stands that protects the trees a little bit better. So something like that might be something that we could do as well, just things that would enliven the space a little bit more to make it a place where people actually want to be. So we're going to start to turn from planning at the high level and UBM's thoughts about how they meet students' needs in terms of housing to talking more specifically about what's happening at the Trinity campus today. So as we do this, we also wanted to ask all of you about your relationship to Trinity campus today in a little different way than we did at the beginning. So Sarah, if you could launch our next poll question. You should see a question pop up that asks about how you use Trinity campus or how you have used Trinity campus. You can choose as many of these options as are applicable to you, but we just want to know a little bit more about your relationship to this part of the campus. And I should have said if you don't see a way that you use you can feel free to put a note in the chat and those of us that are the presenters will see that. So we'll be able to keep track of that. We're definitely seeing a lot of folks say that they passed by Trinity campus, which makes a lot of sense since so many of you are neighbors of the campus. What else are we seeing as some of the top answers? We see some folks say kind of walking around the campus or walking their pet on the campus. Having, oh, that's a comment about some things that can make the campus more attractive to students. But it looks like a lot of folks here as neighbors don't directly use the campus so much as walking by it or driving by it, which I'm also glad to see that those of you that are neighbors are not driving to campus apart for a Lake Monsters game. That would be a really disappointing response to see. So great. All right. Well, we'll go ahead and close that off. Thank you, Sarah, for that. And we'll start to transition into talking about Trinity campus today. Yeah. So this is the map of Trinity. You can see Colchester Avenue down at the bottom. The two sides are sort of what we affectionately call the Trinity ears. And then there's the central area. And the yellow buildings that you're seeing, those are all of our campus residential buildings with the Macaulay and Mercy, the larger buildings in the middle. You can see the cottages. Those are small residential buildings sort of to the east and closer to Colchester Ave. And then in the back, we have what we affectionately call the back five. Those are five residential buildings with some suites in them. They're pretty old. They're difficult to renovate. They're not the best housing. And then our dark blue buildings, our academic buildings in the front is Mann Hall. That's the home for our College of Education and Social Services to the east. That is Delhante, where our geology department and the Geology Museum are housed. And then I'm sorry, did I say that east? I meant to the west. The one to the east and north of Colchester Ave is Farrell Hall. And that's where the Gund Institute for the Environment is housed. We have a few administrative areas as well. If you're familiar with the villa, that is where our university event services is housed. The building that is to the north of that is just it's a small boiler house. And then we own a portion of the Ireland School where we have some physical plant functions in there. And then the Trinity Child Care Center, which is actually in the process of being enlarged right now. And then I forgot to mention the other yellow building at the end of Fletcher Place. That is 50 Fletcher Place. It's a residential building that we bought a few years ago and have used as a rental either for university staff or currently there's some graduate students that are living in that house. When we talk about the existing conditions of the campus, I think one of the really important factors that's relevant to this discussion is also what the zoning says we can do on the Trinity campus today. Back in 2001, when Trinity campus was first offered for sale, so before UVM actually purchased it, the city implemented a special zoning district for a portion, a central portion, of the Trinity campus that was really intended to help guide its future use for housing as a neighborhood, for collegiate uses, but really also to help balance and provide some protection for nearby neighborhoods. The Trinity zone is one of five special overlay zones that we have that apply to portions of UVM, Champlain, and the Medical Center's campuses. And the reason that we have these is really to provide a more nuanced tool within our zoning ordinance that helps us facilitate specific goals for different parts of the campuses. You can imagine that where we might feel that it's appropriate to have taller, more intensive development associated with UVM in the Medical Center and the core campus is different from what we might think is appropriate on the edges of campus or where a campus abuts neighborhoods. So these zoning overlays give us a more nuanced way to approach development that happens at different parts of campus. You can see here an image of where the Trinity campus overlay zone applies. So as Lisa was saying, it really applies to that core part of the campus that includes the academic and residential buildings. It doesn't include those ears, as Lisa called them, which is a term I love. I can't unsee that now that Lisa has said that. And these are essentially the standards for what can be developed within this Trinity overlay zoning district. You can see that buildings that are permitted today are fairly modest between 35 and 55 feet in height, really trying to ensure that new buildings are about the same size as existing buildings on the campus. There is a deep setback required from Colchester Avenue for new buildings of any significant size. And really, this is trying to establish and hold constant that setback from Colchester Avenue that you see today, where Mann Hall and the villa really start to be located on the campus. This does also include some specific standards for limiting how development may happen in addition to how much development could happen. This overlay zone, like many of our overlay zoning districts, precludes the creation of new surface parking lots and really requires the institutions to consider developments on this part of campus as part of a whole parking management plan process that helps manage parking across the system. While housing uses are generally allowed on this campus, the other kind of incidental commercial uses that you typically think of in a vibrant neighborhood are pretty limited. Things like cafes or a small grocery store, those types of things that Lisa was saying that students really prefer to have access to in their living environment are really difficult to create on the Trinity campus within this district today. And we do have some pretty specific thresholds for when the development review board actually looks at developments on this campus. There are a couple of other zoning amendments that our Planning Commission is working on right now that also have some impact on how Trinity campus could be reimagined in the future. One is that we are trying to put in place some additional standards for development that happens on or near steep slopes within our community, making sure that those slopes and the upland areas are really suitable to accommodate that development. So you can see here in this map on the right that all of those areas in the red are really the kind of that steep area, the ravine that runs behind Trinity campus. You can also see that in relationship to where that setback is from Colchester Avenue. So these two things together are really pushing development towards that middle area of campus where the green is and resulting in pretty limited area for new development, new buildings to occur on that campus. We also have recently talked about change to our parking policies that the city council will be taking up shortly. While this will change how much parking is required for new development citywide, one of the important things as part of this is that it maintains that requirement that UVM plan for parking across its entire campus system and does provide some new provisions that ensure that the city has had an opportunity to review and approve that plan before zoning permits can be issued. So as we start to think about what could happen on this campus relative to what the zoning is today, Lisa was gonna share some more information about their campus planning. Yeah, so some of you may be familiar with our 2006 campus master plan. We are in the process of updating that with a new draft 2022 to 2032 campus plan. And this is still in draft form, but this gives you some sense of where we're going, what our thinking is for Trinity campus. So what you're seeing that's colored here is what we call land banks. We use these in the 2006 plan as well. We don't know on a 10 year timeframe exactly every single building we're gonna build on campus and exactly what footprint it's gonna have. So these land banks give us a framework to be able to organize our future development in a flexible way. Again, these are not building footprints. If you see, as you look at them, don't think that that's gonna be developed all the way out to the edge of each land bank. It's just the area that would be appropriate for development. And we categorize them for different uses as well or sometimes leave them as unassigned. So the yellow land banks you're seeing here are residential land banks. And we're looking at those areas as opportunities to add student housing through new construction, renovation of the existing buildings or redevelopment of existing housing. As I mentioned, the back five really difficult to renovate. That might be one that we take a look at taking down and redoing at some point in the future. Macaulay and Mercy could use some renovation and we'll talk about what some new development might look like there. The blue land banks, those are academics. As you can see, those are centered between and around the buildings that I noted earlier are our academic uses on that campus. They give us some opportunities to maybe add some additions or adaptive reuse of the buildings to foster some interdisciplinary work and look to possibly some research growth on the campus. And then the pink land bank in the front is one of our unassigned that could have the potential for maybe some mixed use development, small mixed use development or active green space including some stormwater management practices. You'll notice that again, the ears don't have any land banks on them. Those are areas that we do envision as sort of buffers to the residential neighborhoods on the east and the west keeping the new development in the center of the campus where the institutional core campus overlay is. And as Megan noted right now, we can't do any new parking on Trinity campus, new surface parking. And we wouldn't want to utilize the space for that anyway. We look at our parking on a campus wide basis and new development and parking needs for new development on the campus would be met in other areas of the campus. So these are some of the concept concepts that we're looking at right now. These are dependent on the zoning change and also on our board of trustees approval. But the current thinking is that we could do a graduate student housing project in the beginning in the front towards Colchester Ave of about 120 beds of graduate student housing and then new undergraduate student housing about 400 beds built around Macaulay and Mercy Halls. Again, with a new dining hall as part of that as well. And we've done some concept or we've had an architect do some concept sketches to show what the massing of these would look like. And, excuse me. And so that you can see what the height and setback requests that we're making to the planning commission might look like if you were walking along Colchester Ave. Excuse me. So this is from our request to the planning commission. So we are asking that that existing 115 foot setback be moved forward. You can see the existing one in the red line. The yellow line is the setback for the rest of Colchester Ave. The underlying zone along Colchester Ave. We're asking to move that setback to 25 feet from the city's property line which is actually about 15 feet interior from the edge of the sidewalk. We're also asking for an increase in lot coverage. Right now we are limited to 40% lot coverage and we are at about 38% currently and we would like to see that increase to 60%. That would allow us to move forward with the residential projects that we are currently envisioning and also leave room for future growth as possible academic and other housing projects that I mentioned. And then the height limitation right now. Sorry about that, Lisa. That's okay. That's okay. So we're interested in seeing the height being 45 feet within the setback, within the existing setback. So from that red line forward, we would like to see that go up to 45 feet and then behind it where we think the campus can accommodate a little bit even higher without having an impact on the neighborhood. We'd like to see that go up to 80 feet. So at the planning commission meeting, the setback for Redstone Commons, which is on South Prospect Street was mentioned. So I went out and took some pictures to show that as a comparison to what we are requesting for Trinity campus. So again, on the left, you're seeing the concept sketches for a possible project on Trinity campus with if the requested zoning changes were in place. And on the right, you're seeing the Redstone Commons project on Redstone campus on South Prospect Street. And those buildings are setback 33 feet from the inner edge of the sidewalk. So actually a little bit closer than a Trinity project would be where it would be more 45 feet from the property, I'm sorry, 25 feet from the property line, but that is essentially 45 feet from the sidewalk. And the Redstone Commons buildings are 40 feet. So again, looking at Trinity is maybe just slightly higher than what's there now. What's there for Redstone Commons? I'll just wrap up then by saying that Lisa shared the specific request that UVM has made to the planning commission as they've been considering how to bring more beds to Trinity campus. As the planning commission is talking about this, there are a few other parts of the zoning that they are going to look at and discuss whether or not some changes can and should be made. Really again, to help go back to those goals that we talked about at the beginning of a vibrant campus community that attracts a range of students. In particular, talking about the issue of weather cafes and grocery stores and other small kind of neighborhood serving businesses could be more permitted in this area. Thinking about whether or not there should be caps on how many beds can be created on this part of campus. There are not necessarily those limits in other parts of UVM's campus overlay zones. And then talking about this relationship between some of the information that we shared, what Lisa shared about land banking and how they plan for future development on campus and how that relates to individual projects that come to the city seeking permits. So we'll be talking a bit about how a zoning amendment could also help to facilitate an expanded vision of campus planning, kind of like our parking management plan process and how individual projects fit into that overall vision. So I think that's all we had that we wanted to share with you. Again, just kind of setting up information about what UVM has been thinking about for Trinity campus and how that relates to the existing zoning. So we wanna move into Q&A and spend the rest of our time answering the questions that you have. We do have, I think one more poll, we would like to get your feedback, specifically as I mentioned, because a big part of the work that we're doing on this zoning amendment relates to how we really facilitate those goals that we have for Trinity campus. We wanted to hear your feedback on how you would prioritize those goals. From your perspective, which of these goals are the most important as we move forward with the future of Trinity campus? So as you look at this, you can rank each one of these goals that we shared from highest to lowest priority with a number one being the highest priority and number five being the lowest. We're getting a couple of responses and as those are coming in, we're definitely seeing some ranking of providing additional beds and a vibrant campus community as being among the top priorities from your perspective. It looks like some people aren't seeing the poll. Maybe if you go down to the bottom of your Zoom screen, there might be a button for polls, if you click on that, may help pop that up for you. And if it's not, we can also share this later for you. Great. So it looks like about half of folks have shared their feedback and some folks are having technical problems. So we'll go ahead and stop this so that we can get to more of your Q&A. But definitely thank you for sharing your feedback on that. It is helpful to see a lot of agreement with the concept of, especially providing more housing on the campus and a vibrant campus community as being among some of the top goals for folks here. So I think with that, we're going to transition over to having the UVM and city team available to answer questions that you have about any of the information that we shared and any input that you have. So Charles, I don't know if you saw any questions that were shared in the chat that we could start with. We do. We have a few comments that I think we could turn into questions and we do have a couple of questions and we'll start from the top. This is a comment from Barbara Hedrick, which was that UVM needs to have a convenient student-only fitness center on the Trinity campus to make it a more appealing place to live. So Lisa or the UVM team, if you could speak to that or more generally, can you sort of explain what recreation amenities currently exist on the campus or are there any other planned recreation amenities? Richard, feel free to jump in here as well. I'm not sure that, I think that's a good idea, Barbara. I'm not sure that we've gotten quite that far in our planning of exactly what amenities would be in the new housing. I can say that in our newest residence hall, which is the central campus residence hall, that one does have a really nice fitness center that the students really enjoy. And so I would agree that I think that's something that students are very interested in. I would just add for that number of students, I would anticipate just as we would be building a new large dining hall that a fitness center on scale, it won't be a large one like we have at the athletics complex, but would be part of the equation, I think in the common area of the new building. Can we take one more chat question and then we have a lot of hands. So we'll go back and forth. Okay, next question. This is also a comment from Barbara and this is about commercial uses on Trinity campus. Barbara's comment was basically that she believes that any commercial businesses on Trinity campus should only serve the students and not be open to the public as a way to conserve space. For example, if a grocery store is provided for students, keep it small so that you can preserve more space for students. So if you could speak to your thoughts on any non sort of residential or academic uses and the rationale behind making them open to the public or not. I think there would be our original concept. And again, as Lisa says, we haven't gone forward with detailed planning because we don't know if we have the zoning, but really did not include a lot of commercial activities other than the normal food service for the students and that sort of thing. We've had some discussions, some people at some of the city meetings mentioned on occasion something like having a coffee shop or something that people from off the campus could use as well, but we really haven't pursued that at this point. Yeah, I think I appreciate that comment and I think I'll just say from the city's perspective, we're just thinking about how to help provide flexibility for future campus developments that would really speak to some of those preferences that both the upperclassmen and the undergraduate students have indicated that they want if the institutions are interested in adding them as part of a project. Todd, why don't we go to you? I see your hand up. Thank you. I'm Todd Schlossberg. I live in Ward 1 on Loomis Street, lived here since 1991, moved to Brownington initially in 1980. And I'm looking across the street at the house across street which is a duplex that houses seven upperclass students in one side and six in the other. You may ask, well, wait a minute, we have a four or more unrelated adult ordinance in the city but it doesn't get enforced. We've met with enforcement and they listen to us and they never do anything about it. So as a person that's raised children here, you know, with kids going downtown, I can say that the biggest concern I have is that the city's, frankly, the city's lack of resolve to say, can we use this as an opportunity finally to get the UVM to create housing for upperclass students, third and fourth years. And when I proposed that, I was met with a response from our chief executive, the mayor saying, oh, that might not be legal. And that's not a way to leverage the power you have. I'm just an old country lawyer here, but I'll tell you my property professor at Vermont Law School said, when it comes to rezoning the municipality or the city is King Kong. And we finally have an opportunity here, you, Megan, and planning zoning to say, you know, if we really want to privilege to value our community, our neighborhoods and to try to free up even a few homes. And I'm hearing here, I'm hearing, and I appreciate you're sharing that poll that you did of students, which frankly is saying, compared with the existing housing, you know, on-campus housing stock of undergrad housing, would you rather live on-campus or off? You're not saying, what about if we create what it really feels like housing for independent older students? But let's put that aside. Even if 10% of your third and fourth year students would welcome this, especially if it's affordable. Even 10%, you have a what, 5,000 and change third and fourth year students? Well, that's 500 students, okay? Now, I wasn't a math major, but it seems to me that with Vermont's, with Burlington's four or more unrelated adult ordinance, if you figure with a house then having an average of four students, that's a hundred houses, even just four hundred students, you're gonna free up a hundred homes for rental, for working people, working ordinary, you know, working class, middle class people, people maybe who wanna raise kids. So why in the world wouldn't our city do everything possible to at least come in saying, you know, we wanna work with you, we wanna see you build other housing there, but as part of this, we'd like to see you commit to dedicating, if not all, the majority of these 400 beds to third and fourth year students. And I say to you, why the heck not? Why not ask, why not try to do this, create the opportunity, why not start from what's possible rather than what I'm hearing essentially is that there's no commitment here offering beds to undergrad and grad doesn't answer the problem of third and fourth year students across the street in all of our neighborhoods taking housing away from working class people. Yeah, thanks, Todd. I appreciate the comment about, did you say King Kong? I don't always feel like King Kong. It feels like zoning conversations are usually a much more uphill battle than that, but I do appreciate that perspective. And the point about, you know, kind of using this opportunity. So, you know, definitely as part of this conversation about Trinity campus, we have been approaching this from two different perspectives. One is about how do we make sure that some of the barriers that are limiting the potential for housing to be created on that campus? How do we make sure that some of those barriers are removed or peeled back in a way that can help facilitate the creation of, you know, hundreds of beds, like you said, on this campus? We have not through zoning mandated who lives in those housing units in terms of their specific grade level at the institutions. And that's the piece that I'm hearing you express your frustration about. I think when we start using zoning as a tool to say who can live somewhere, we start to get into a really difficult legal territory. And you can imagine how in the past, zoning was used as a tool to say who couldn't live somewhere, who that was used as for racial or classist exclusion. So we have to be very careful about how far we weighed into the territory through zoning of saying who has to live somewhere or who can or cannot live somewhere and find a balance on that issue in particular. So as we talk about zoning changes, we also have been trying to collaborate with the institutions to learn more about, like Lisa was saying, who do you anticipate will live on this campus? And how can we help you facilitate a campus environment that will be an attractive place for those upperclassmen, those juniors and seniors to live? How do we be responsive to the preferences that they have heard pretty clearly from their students about what kind of campus community they want to live in? Megan? Yes. If I just might, I don't want to dominate. There's a lot of people who want to ask questions and this is maybe better taken up at the actual next city meeting, the zoning and planning meeting. But I just want to say here that, I mean, I don't know if you came up with this or what, but to suggest that the notion that saying we will condition this phase on say, for example, we want you to commit to graduate housing, for example, or third or fourth year student housing to analogize that to racial discrimination is frankly insulting and legally wrong. And unless Dan Richardson is here saying legally, we could not because they have, UBM has no property right to get a zoning change. We can just turn it down for no reason at all. And you know that. So the idea that this, let's make a fair argument, but to analogize racial or religious discrimination with saying, we'd like you to put grad student housing or in this case, third or fourth year is just not really a fair argument. So with that, I mean, I'll look forward to seeing you at one of the official meetings moving forward where there's more time for discussion. So thank you. Okay, thank you, Todd. Charles, okay. Why don't we go with the people in their hands up? Megan. Sorry, go ahead, Richard. I'm sorry, I don't mean to prolong or so long, but I did just for a piece of information. We have 403 juniors and seniors living in redstone lofts on the campus now. And there are also probably another 200 to 300 juniors and seniors living spread throughout the residence halls across the campus. So I just don't want people to think there aren't any upper class students on campus who are. Okay, thank you, Richard. I think that the other hand that I saw raised is actually the phone number ending in 3604. If you're joining on it, there we go. Yes, hi, good evening. This is Sharon Busher. And I've been following this now for quite some time. And I want to thank Lisa and Richard Kate. And I don't know who else is there from UVM, but I want to thank UVM. I think Joe Spidell is supposed to be there. I don't know. I couldn't get in on Zoom. So I'm blind to all the pretty colors, Lisa, but I have been following this and I know your land bank process. I wanted to make a couple of comments for the rest of the people. I did go to the planning commission meeting and I did send a lengthy communication to the planning commission and department. And I wanted to state that I was the person who went down South Prospect and looked at the Redstone Apartments and looked at their development and their setback and their height. And Lisa mentioned the setback. Thank you for that for the measurement. The height though was not 45 feet, I don't believe. I believe it was 35 feet and I don't know whether she has that. And the point for me doing that was to say that I felt that what we're trying to do is integrate housing, which I support into an existing neighborhood that is home to a university campus. And what I'd like to do is support this housing, which I do. I support a master plan for Trinity campus. I support many of the uses that are proposed, not everything, but many of them. And I support additional height that is set further back. Once again, I'm not gonna commit to 80 feet because I'm not sure. I have to do some comparisons. I don't just pluck things from the sky. I want to have a balloon. I wanna see really what this talks about, what kind of shadowing really, how does that look? I think that's relevant. So the communication that I sent dealt specifically with three items. One, which is totally in the purview of the planning commission, the setbacks and the height. And I had requested that the setback certainly not be 115 feet, although I had no problem with that, but I understand that is not relevant. Today, we need to allow more development because of the slope. I had proposed 45 feet and that was from the sidewalk. So I don't know, I need to look at what Lisa said and what I had measured out with counselor Jean Bergman as to what would be appropriate or look right because there's a sloping down that can help soften some of the height. I also thought that it was appropriate that the height be 35 feet as opposed to 45 feet. But once again, I think that sloping down could take into consideration some of that additional height. And it's indeed this structure was very large to break it up. If you go down South Prospect, you see that it looks like there are like three single houses because they're spaced, they're broken up. And it gives a sense of, it softens it. It's not one big massive unit. And once again, that's what I'm trying to do. Integrate it, allow development, but integrate it in a way that works for all of us. There's a person, I'm not gonna name her, she can speak for herself, that worried about development on Colchester Avenue. And if it was on both sides of the street with the hospital and UVM, that Colchester Avenue would become sort of a canyon. And I feel the same way about development that really walls in people and cars and bikes. I don't like it. I don't care what planners say. I don't agree with them. So that's number one. Number two is the other two items were not under the purview of planning, but are relevant. And it's been touched upon. The affordability of housing is one of the factors that does, I do a lot of door knocking in my new job because I worked for the government. And people move off campus because of affordability. That's one of the factors. They certainly want freedom. That's a big one, but they do because of affordability. And UVM has known this for quite a while and it's a challenge. And I'm not saying it's an easy challenge to wrestle with or solve, but it is a factor. And here's another opportunity to kind of figure out, how can we do this so we make it affordable? Someone else, Todd mentioned the type of housing. I think that's key. I think you all know that. So I'm not going to say that again. You know that students don't want to live in dorms. They want to live in more apartment style housing. So affordability, I mentioned the zoning. The third piece is something that, and once again, we are a community and UVM, you're part of us. And so enrollment is another factor that is real. And if enrollment changes or increases and you agree to house more people on campus, but after their sophomore year, they're bouncing into our community and enrollment keeps increasing. More people will bounce into the community. And I'm not sure we'll ever catch up with getting more housing available in the community that isn't occupied by students. And I think that's the goal. That's the goal to have a balance and a mix. So those are the things I wanted to share that were in my lengthy communication. You know, me, I'm very wordy and I apologize. But there was one other thing that as I was looking at all of this, and I've got a lot of history with the city and with Trinity campus. As a college, I worked really well with the sisters. The cottages, and I know that Joe Spydell and I believe Richard Cate knows about this. I know that they were amended or annexed on to Trinity campus. And there was, there were conditions. I wasn't excited about that because those were houses that were occupied by residents but they were added on to the campus. And they were for special students. I don't know, honor students, I don't recall. It was a long time ago. But one thing that I thought if UVM could contemplate is, and I'm not looking to change how much landmass and change the development, I'd be more than happy to support some kind of agreement that would make sure that didn't happen for UVM. But if those cottages could go back to the city to be used as affordable housing owned by Champlain Housing Trust, I did reach out to Michael Monty and had a conversation with him and he was interested. These are not a lot of units. But if indeed UVM would do that, and these are units that could be occupied by people in the community, not students alone. I mean, you could be a student, but you'd have to qualify. And I just feel that that's something that UVM could contemplate and do for the community. It's just a small gesture of good faith addressing housing and affordability. And I'm hoping that this administration and the Board of Trustees will look at that and say, yeah, we can do that. The last thing I wanted to say to Megan and to everyone else was that the master plan in 2006, I was on the council and UVM included everybody, not just counselors, but residents. We had round tables up at Gutter Center someplace. And it was wonderful. It was an inclusive process. And I mourn that inclusiveness, that reaching out to the community. I think it only makes UVM stronger. I don't think it reveals your hand. I don't think it changes what you can do. I think it potentially offers you more opportunities to be able to do things if you get buy-in and support from the community. So thank you very much for allowing me to speak. Thank you, Sharon. All right, we have Richard Single and then Keith Pillsbury and then Bob Butani. You can continue to use the raise hand button if you'd like or if it's not working for you, you can also let us know in the chat and we'll make sure to call on you. Hello, this is Richard Single. I'm a Ward 1 resident. And I have a couple of comments and questions. The first one is about what Richard Kate had mentioned about juniors and seniors currently living on campus. I'd just like to know, do all juniors and seniors that request to live on campus, are they, are there requests met or is there some information on how many students would but are unable to be housed on campus if you have any information on that. And I don't know if you would have that available right now but just to... Yeah, there isn't specifically a formal process but we do get inquiries especially now in this exceptionally tight market. And so there are some, it's not vast numbers I don't think but there are some upper class students, I think that would live on campus if we had more capacity. Okay, I know myself, I lived in a dorm area that is similar to the centennial apartments in my junior and senior year and the competition to get into those structures, this was at a different institution in Albany but the competition to get into those on campus apartments was tremendous and I think that there would be not a great difficulty in having students, I teach at UVM, I interact with lots of juniors and seniors and almost, and I talk about housing with them often and they would love to be able to live on campus. The, you know, those students that are really motivated students, I think you would find them really jumping at the opportunity. I'd like to, if we could take a look at the draft 22-23 plan that Lisa showed with the land banking. Did you want us to pull that slide back up? Yeah, if you could. Okay. I had actually asked the question about, does anyone know the height of the Mansfield building? Do you know Lisa? Sorry, Rich, do you mean Mann Hall? Oh, sorry, Mann Hall, sorry. Yeah, it's 55 feet. 55 feet, okay. So that is a substantial increase from what is already a tall building that we have there. Where would the 80, how far back would the 80-foot height come into play? I understand it wouldn't be at the very initial portion. Right, so the existing 115-foot setback basically goes back to the beginning of Mann Hall. And so the thought is that the 80-foot, excuse me, height could start there at Mann Hall. Okay. And is it possible to pull up the slide that is a couple forward with the conceptual rendering of? This one here? Yeah, that's fine. So I guess, I mean, this looks very nice, what's here, but actually there's one more, I think a further one up that had the, yeah, the two. I'm just trying to get my head around this because I know the redstone area and what that setback seems like. The conceptual rendering here has a person that's jogging on the sidewalk. And unless that person is really, really, really short, I'm having a hard time picturing 15 feet from the sidewalk being the front of where those buildings are. It just does not compute for me. So I mean, I like the way this looks right here, but I don't believe it is, I guess what I'm coming up against here. I think, you know, personally, I think that the setback really enhances the aesthetic appeal of the Trinity campus tremendously. I mean, and not just for students, but for the entire community. And I think that, you know, if there is buildable space that moves that setback quite a ways back, because I mean, you see students out there tossing frisbee. I may not go over and I kick the soccer ball with my daughter and toss a frisbee there. Sometimes, you know, we'll go over and play on the tennis courts back in that area. And we bring, you know, all sorts of equipment because kids get bored of doing one thing and want to do other things. But we're not the only ones that are laying out, doing things on that lawn area. I think that's something that could be taken advantage of instead of keeping that green space behind the buildings, but use it to be something that's attractive to the students and the communities and it would avoid that canyon effect. So I do want to note, Rich, the setback request is 25 feet from the property line, from the city's property line. And the city's property line is actually 15 feet interior from the sidewalk. So essentially we're talking about 45 feet or 40 feet from the edge of the sidewalk. Yeah, I'm trying to, if you can still see my screen. Oh, it doesn't look like you can. So I was trying to draw a line to help illustrate what Lisa is just saying because the perspective of this image that we're looking at is a little different from looking at something from up in the air above it. But what Lisa's saying is that, you know, right now the property line roughly is somewhere in this area. It's behind the sidewalk by quite a bit. And then a setback from this property line is what UVM is requesting. So in total, what Lisa was sharing was that, you know, these buildings are illustrated as being close to 40 feet away from the sidewalk. Okay, that's more believable. Yeah, yeah. I was trying to, you know, just I'm thinking three copies of that jogger they are. Yeah, yeah. So, all right, so could you share that information? I missed that information completely in all of the materials that I've read about the setback. So I don't have a good sense of where we're talking about. But, yeah, that's a great point. We can try to make that more clear because I think oftentimes in most parts of the city, the property line is much closer to the street or much closer to the sidewalk. So when we are talking about setbacks, it's easier to translate what that means if you're thinking about the property itself. So that's a great point of feedback that we can try to make more clear in this material. But to be clear, it's from the edge of the sidewalk, the northern edge of the sidewalk, it's how many feet? It would essentially be about 40 feet. 40 feet. The setback would be about 40 feet from the edge of the sidewalk. Okay, and what is, where does the city, I'm just wondering where is the city's property line begin? It's about where this yellow line is that I drew on this image. But we- Yeah, no, I was wondering in feet instead of- About 15. Oh, sorry. About 15. About 15, yeah. Okay, all right, thank you. Okay, next we have Keith Pillsbury. And we do have at least Robert Bhutani after you, Keith. Okay, hi Megan, thank you very much. I'm Keith Pillsbury. I am currently the ward clerk of Ward 8, and I'm on the NPA Steering Committee for Ward 8, and I'm a former school commissioner for Ward 8. So my perspective is a little bit different. It's from the Ward 8 perspective and the type of housing that we have in our district. To even talk about 25 feet is like, I'm walking down Bradley Street today or Buell Street. Those students that live in those houses and they are student housing, they're 10, they're not even 10 feet from the sidewalk. So this whole idea of setback makes me kind of like, well, wait a minute. But I wanna talk about the fact that we see in Ward 8, pretty campus is one of the last best chances to improve housing in our ward. The core of this urban center of Burlington, College Street, Bradley Street, Buell Street, Oak Terrace, University Terrace, South Willard and Pearl Streets. The priority that we have is to provide available affordable housing for a new generation of long-term residents who want to live, work and play in an environmentally sustainable urban area. Right now, housing is not available or affordable in Ward 8 for the working class, poor or middle class, whether new Americans or American born. Our limited housing stock should be for non-student residents contributing over many years to our city's economic, social and political wellbeing, therefore making a true neighborhood. The reason that apartments are not available for non-students is that thousands of UVM undergrads sign their leases for apartments in the fall before the next June that they're going to live in them. Locking out graduates, young graduates, medical students, professionals and families out of opportunities to lease an apartment, not talking about the BIPOCs, people that would like to live in our community and not have to have a car. Meanwhile, UVM's undergraduate and graduate enrollments are increasing, you're not talking about that. UVM is expanding its mission space across from our place or live on University Terrace. And by the way, the end of our street is Davis Center, which is a tall building and it has no effect on us how we feel. And building a new research centers, which means we're gonna have more graduate students. In the fall of 2021, UVM enrolled 500 more students and projects to enroll the same number of more students this fall. Therefore, 1,000 more students will be jammed into the 62, 6,250 bed capacity on campus with triplets and rooms that were built for two people. Building 500 more beds on Trinity campus does nothing to relieve the demand for housing units, beds and the university area. It's a feel good exercise. It perpetuates the big lie that UVM is not one of the causes of the housing crisis in our ward and in the city. UVM has torn down university heights, apartments and the three shoeboxes and we place them with additional living units that were never sufficient to relieve the demand for housing on our streets in ward eight. Extra students have just squeezed into the limited rental apartments and homes of absentee landlords to reduce their living expenses. The university needs to use the open spaces on Trinity campus to reconfigure the current buildings for housing and tear down the five dorms built in the 70s. UVM needs to build higher, more dense living units. The university could build Trinity campus up to 2,500 beds like we, like my street is next to on the athletic campus. The residents of my street, Henderson Terrace and Robinson Parkway in our street being the only ones that has some student rentals live in harmony next to the athletic campus. The setback issue to me is just their excuse for not building more density for students on campus. Living learning is as close to you as to route two, which is another corridor and probably busier than the UVM proposed setback for Trinity. Most students living on ward eight streets live as close to the sidewalk as 10 feet. And at two o'clock on Saturday and Sunday mornings, it's just loud as the corridor streets at rush hour. Thank you very much. Thank you, Keith. Okay, we'll go to Bob Bhutani. And then we do have a question from the chat that Charles will read. Hi, can you hear me? We can. Thank you for the opportunity to speak. Before I start, I'd like to give a shout out to Gail Chapnoy and her colleagues at Oscar who've done tremendous work on Fletcher Place where we live and in reaching out and trying to bring our block together. We have a block of working people, homeowners and there's one student house left, which for the past couple of years has been pretty good. And so we're pleased about that. What I don't hear is that it seems to me that UVM is interested in increasing enrollment, but they're silent on the effect that it will have on the housing shortage in Burlington, which is approximately 0.5% vacancy, which is at a critical stage. I believe the healthy vacancy rate is about 5% to 6%. Building undergrad, bringing in new undergraduates, I think you said it's about 400 beds. If three quarters of them using your own, approximately three quarters of those students who when they become juniors do not wish to live on campus, you're bringing in, you're adding 75, 71 to 75% more students onto a market that's already critically short. And to echo Todd, Sharon and the gentleman who just spoke, what is UVM's plan to build more housing that would be made available to working people or to participate in the creation of housing that would be made available to working people as opposed to just having a primary goal of increasing enrollment, which is very apparent to see. Thank you very much. And I just wanna say we have our neighbor Nancy Kirby here with us who was unable to access her own computer. Okay, thank you. I'm glad that you were able to have Nancy join you. Lisa or Richard, do you want to answer that question? Well, I think that the bottom line is UVM is in the business of educating students and thus our focus is on providing housing for our students. I don't think we're going to get into the development of housing for people that are not affiliated with the University, but at the same time by putting more housing on Trinity and other parts of the campus, as has been pointed out by some of the citizens would hopefully help to alleviate some of the pressure on the private sector housing market in the city and thereby provide more options for other people. I appreciate that, sir. However, you're not addressing the issue of you're bringing in more students and then when they become juniors, they're being unloaded onto the housing market by choice. 71% would do not wanna live in a dormitory. So what you're doing is you're increasing enrollment and you're then by de facto, you're increasing students who are gonna flood the housing market when they become juniors, but that's a stated fact. I mean, you admitted yourself. So that's the issue. We're not asking UVM to build housing for middle-class and working people. We're pointing out that the UVM appears to be silent on their goal that they want to increase enrollment, but they're silent on what the effect will be on the housing market in Burlington once those students become juniors. Thank you. Understood. I think that presumes that they all will end up downtown. I think, as I said before, if we build more housing, although it's not the interest of the majority who live on campus, it is the interest of some of the upper-class students who live in Burlington. Sure, the 30% who would rank using your own metric, 71% do not wanna live on campus once they become juniors. So, I mean, they're in lies that come under them, but I do appreciate you addressing my concerns. Nancy? I'm all for student housing and on Colchester Avenue, but I'm not so crazy about it being that close to the city property line. And I think the setback should be more than 45 feet. And I think there should be something addressed like on Redstone, there are trees planted there, to be walking, driving, bicycling by those big brick buildings that you wanna put up there. I think very institutional and very unneighborly. And my concern is, I've lived here in this neighborhood for 48 years, I grew up in Burlington. And when students came off UVM campus, the rents increased and greedy people brought property to house the students that don't wanna live on your campus, make your campus living a little more affordable. And maybe that'll alleviate the houses that are on the streets that people cannot live in because the students have taken over. Now, Buell Street, Hiccup, Isham Green Street, let's be real, they're ghettos. They're ghettos, the landlords don't care. Every nine months, they move somebody else in, the rent goes up and they might paint the property. And that just doesn't work for me anymore. We're losing families and working people in Burlington. And this isn't the city of the University of Vermont. This is the queen city of Burlington, Vermont. And the citizens in Burlington, I believe deserve better. Thank you for your time. Thank you, Nancy. We will go to our final question from the chat and then we'll start to wrap up and talk about next steps. So, Megan and Lisa and UVM team, this is a question about the land bank map. So, Megan, if you wanna bring that up, so this was a question about the two yellow areas on that map and why are they not contiguous? Maybe you could just speak a little bit more about how this map came to be. Sure, I think there's, so what you can't see on this map here is that there is some topography off to, as Megan showed actually earlier on the steep slopes map. Yeah, you can see it here better. There's in that corner in between the two properties, there will actually, there's topography that kind of squeezes in around the back five. And that, so that's one of the reasons. And I think, you know, the envisionment is that there would be one, you know, one project around the existing Macaulay and Mercy and then potentially the back five would come down for another project other than looking at the steep slope map there too. We would have to account for all of that. So it would be a separate and you would want a little breathing room, I would think in between those two areas as well. All right, thank you. Thanks, Lisa and Richard for your help answering questions and responding to some of the comments that we had tonight. Thank you to everyone for being here to hear about the work that UVM is contemplating and the work that the Planning Commission will be taking up soon. We wanted to wrap up just by sharing a little bit of what you can expect to come next. To speak to a logistics question, we did get a few questions about whether tonight's meeting recording will be available as well as whether the slides from tonight will be available. Those both will be available on the city's website. There is a link here. We will also share with all of you that attended directly a link to this website so that you can find it easily. So if you have an interest in sharing these slides or the recording with anybody that couldn't be here, we definitely encourage you to do so. We're going to be talking about this issue and specifically the potential changes to the zoning with the Planning Commission this summer. We're going to start with sharing an update about tonight's meeting and some of the other feedback that we've heard about this issue maybe at their meeting next week. It really depends on whether or not they have time on their agenda to get all the way through all the topics. But definitely beginning in July, you should see this appearing on Planning Commission agendas for discussion. So I encourage you to keep an eye out for that. If you are interested in following this issue through the Planning Commission, we've also shared here the contact information for Bridget O'Keefe who works on our team at City Hall. She can make sure that your email address gets added to our list of people that get notified when our Planning Commission agendas are posted so that you know about upcoming meetings. And I'll just say that as the Planning Commission takes this up, there will be a number of meetings where they talk more in detail about some of these questions of the zoning ordinance and how an amendment or amendments could come together. After their work is done, this will also be taken up and discussed by the City Council before any changes are ultimately made. So there will be a number of meetings and opportunities for you to follow along the progress of this discussion and to share your input with the City and UVM teams as we move forward. So thank you again for your time, for being here tonight. Thanks to the City and UVM team for joining us and sharing all this information. And I'm sure we'll see many of you in the very near future. Have a great evening. Thank you everyone.