 In this episode of the Civil Engineering podcast, Macell Pascal is gonna talk about all of those things that civil engineers talk about doing, but they never actually do. Like getting into sales and business development, working internationally all over the world, getting involved in STEM activities and leaving a real legacy behind. And she also talks about working in the civil engineering field as a black woman and what that's meant to her and how she can impact other people. This is a value-packed episode. Let's get right into it. All right, now I'd like to welcome our guest for today's episode, Macell Pascal. Macell is the Regional Engineer and Sales Manager for the Menard Group. Macell, welcome to the Civil Engineering podcast. How are you? I'm good, thanks for having me. Happy to be here. So we're excited to have you. You look like you've had a kind of a well-traveled career for someone who is still young. So that's always exciting. Why don't you start by telling our listeners what it is that you do on a daily basis right now in your career? So what I do on a daily basis has drastically changed. So I think I'll have to give you the pre-COVID version and then the post-COVID version. Sure. Pre-COVID, it was my hat. I wear about three, maybe three and a half hats. I would say business development, education, sales and bids, engineering, and then a bit of probably people management is what I would call it. So before COVID, there was a lot of travel involved in what I would do. So I run the Southeast. So that goes from North Carolina, South Carolina, Florida, Georgia, Alabama, Tennessee. So a lot of ground to cover when doing business development. So I was on Delta a lot. I was on probably Southwest a little bit. So a fair bit of traveling, just going out, reaching out to new clients, maybe some old clients for us in the ground improvements field where our work, we wanna touch the geotechs, obviously, but we also wanna touch the structural engineers. We wanna talk to the owners. We wanna talk to the GECs. So there's so many people in any phase of a project that could bring us in that we want to be sure to be reaching out to all those people educating them about ground improvement and making sure that on their next project, they think of us. So that's a lot of what I did, especially when I just moved here. So I started out the office in Florida. We had not had a Florida presence before. So a lot of what I did was just saying, hey, we're here, we're here to help you and all of that. Once, I mean, the office, it's a lot of helping with my team with, I don't like to say my team, but helping our team with going over geotech reports, doing pre-bid designs, getting proposals together, getting bid estimates together. Obviously we have to bid on work to be able to get it. So there's that aspect. Some of that is talking to clients before trying to learn about the project, develop projects with clients or sometimes it's just a hard bid. We get a request for bid in, we go through it, we submit a proposal, we win or we don't. So it's a couple of different ways that works. And then I'm still an engineer and I still like to get involved in some of the technical aspects. So sometimes that just includes helping. We have a pretty good design team. They probably don't need me, but I like to poke my nose in and help whenever I can, just because I feel like I have a background in soils that can be pretty helpful. So that's reviewing stuff. Sounds like an engineer to me. Yeah, reviewing stuff when needed and all of that. And then there's the little things like interviewing people for positions or reviewing time sheets or reviewing expense sheets. Me, so how big is your company just so the listeners get a feel for? So I guess I could go way back. Our mothership is Vinci Construction. They're out of France. Under that we fall under the, I think Vinci somewhere like a $40 billion Euro company, their construction and concessions. Under that we fall under the Stolettage Fresno umbrella and then under Menard. So Menard worldwide is about a 300 million Euro company. In the U.S. we have, I think about 100 and some odd full-time staff that's mostly office people and some full-time field people. And then depending on how the projects or how many projects we have going, we have more part-time union staff, et cetera, coming in. How about your office though? Like how many, when you said our team, what does that look like? Okay, so my office in Tampa is we, right now we have four people. So we have an estimated engineer, senior estimated engineer, Matt. Hey, Matt, there is Tanya who we just hired. She's a field engineer and Tony is our assistant PM. So those are the four people in the office in Tampa. And then we coordinate with our PM in Charleston and the shop in Leland. So that's the whole group for the Southeast. Okay, and so the reason I'm asking you is I think that this career path for a civil engineer is very interesting getting into sales and business development, which is what you do. And I think that a lot of engineers love the technical side of engineering, but they also like the people interaction. They like the idea of sales, business development, growing something. And that's obviously something that you're doing. Can you take us back to when and how you realized that that was something that you wanted to do? Because I feel like a lot of civil engineers are out there in their projects and they may not realize that your career path is even an option for them. Yeah, so I guess to answer that question, I'll give you a brief history of my career path. And that is, I started off at Manhattan College in the Bronx. Gojaspers did civil engineering degree there. Straight out of college, I worked. Well, first of all, I did internships every year while I was in college, which is I think a big deal for people who are still in school to try to get out there and learn a little bit. Because at first I thought I wanted to be an environmental engineer and then I did one internship and decided that wasn't for me. And then I did a soil scores and I did an internship at Musil Rutledge. And then when I left, when I finished my undergrad, I worked at Musil Rutledge for a little bit. And I said, okay, this is I think where I wanna go. So then did my master's at Virginia Tech and then went on to work for Haley and Aldrich in New Jersey and then Golder Associates. And in that time, I went from your typical, entry-level geotech to what is it, project-level to senior geotechnical engineer. And I think it started a little bit at Haley and Aldrich, where my boss at the time, Ed Zumiski, Ed would take me to some of his meetings that he would go to. So if he was meeting with an architect in New York City, I would go along sometimes. And I started to see that sales, I guess, aspect of engineering. And then when I moved on to Golder, I started to spend a little bit more time doing business development. Again, still being taken along to meetings, to meet with prospective clients, having to put together presentations for different owners or stuff like that. So I started to see a little bit more of the business development side. I would say the one rub when you're a working consultant and you get into doing a little bit more business development is the, I would get the chargeability thing brought up where, well, you're not chargeable. Well, how do we get work if we don't do the BD? So definitely don't have that issue on the contract side. But so I started getting a little bit more into doing some business development while I was at Golder. And I definitely had people who encouraged that, encouraged me to do more of that. So, you know, go ahead. So before we go further, I want to stop you for a minute there. So you started doing some of this, you saw some of the BD work with your boss when you went out to meetings and you kind of like did it sounds like and then you started doing some more at your next company. And I know a lot of civil engineering professionals are, I don't know if introverted is the right word, but like they're not comfortable speaking to people, you know, having these conversations and getting out there. Is that something for you that like you were always comfortable with? And so business development kind of spoke to you or did you like business development figure, you know, I better just learn these skills and develop them? It's funny because I always say I don't like people, but then I chuckle saying that. I seem to do pretty well with talking to people. I, you know, I say I don't like people, but you know, I don't mind talking to people. I'm pretty open. I have to get over myself a little bit in terms of fair rejection, I think when you especially if you go like to an ASCE meeting or something and you have to open up yourself and just go talk to some random person you've never met before. But I think once you get over that it's a little bit easier and you know, I don't think I'm the most personable person but I try and people seem to like talking to me. So that's kind of just how it developed. And that's something that you just developed some of these skills by just continuing to get out there and kind of working with people. I think so, I think so. I think you just have to kind of keep doing it and keep going at it because I'm very shy and reserved and some people if some people know me and they hear this they might say impossible, but I am, you know, by nature. I take a while to get to know people, especially new people. Once we're friends it's all good, but I'm like, you know, I take a while to get comfortable with people, which is something that you can't do when you have one interaction, right? Or that one interaction could mean the difference between you getting that job or not. So I think it's just something you have to work on and you have to, you know, keep trying at it. Do little things like go to, like I said, the ASCE conferences, TFIs, working with different groups like Future City and stuff like that where you just kind of slowly, you know, creep out of your shell. Interesting. And so you're at Golder and you started doing more of that and then at some point you must have kind of really felt like this is something I want to do on a more regular basis. So it didn't exactly happen like that, but I was at Golder in Atlanta and I moved to Houston and still working for the Golder Atlanta office. And I was a little bit, I guess, of a satellite employee, which is a little bit strange. And I went to a conference and was just yapping it up with some people, you know, just for, it was a mixer. And I said to, these guys were talking to me. I had no clue who they were. And I guess there was, you know, because I didn't know there was, you know, no inhibition and I was just talking to them. And I mentioned that I was in Houston and then they said, you know, oh, we just had, we have a office in Houston and we just had someone actually leave and we're looking for someone to do BD. Would that be something you're interested in? And that's how I ended up at Menard. It actually, I don't think I ever applied for the job. It kind of just happened that way, which I guess makes sense because in the sense that I put myself out there to talk to people and then it ended up turning into a BD position, you know? Wow, wow. And that's like what we talk a lot about in the pockets. When you get out there, you build your network, you kind of create opportunities for yourself and then it's up to you to take them or not. And it sounds like, you know, you jumped at the opportunity and kind of the rest is history more or less. Now, I've been interested to talk to you because I feel like you've done things that a lot of civil engineers want to do, but they never do. Like number one, go into sales and business development and then number two, working a lot of different locations. You've worked in a lot of different parts of the world. Can you talk about that a little bit? So one of the, I guess the most interesting pulls about moving to Golder was the fact that they were in an international company and they had offices all over the world. So what that allowed me to do was actually, I was single, I had no kids, no attachments basically. And at the time, Australia was really just booming. I don't know if you remember that. Their mining industry was just going gangbusters and they were just looking for help and a fair number of people from Golder ended up going over to Australia to help in just different capacities. So I threw my hat in my name in the ring and I said, I'd love to go over there to help. And it took a little bit of time and finally my boss, Mark McNeely with Golder, helped me get that through. And I picked up and went to Australia and didn't know anyone or anything and almost had a panic attack on the flight from LA but I picked up and moved over there for about six months and it was, I think one of the best things I've ever done. I got to see things a little bit differently, got to see how people approach geotechnical engineering. They do stuff like pressure meter tests in and actually use that to do their drill shafts and their rock socket and micro piles and they're able to just get so much more capacity out of that than what I feel we were doing at the time and probably still are doing it. So it just seemed like they were taking, pushing things further because they were spending more time and effort doing the field testing that sometimes I know geotechs get pushed back on here in the US. That's interesting, I can't imagine that plane ride. I mean, geez, I think really a life, it's really a life-changing thing that you did there and that decision, I mean, what was that decision-making process like for you? Well, I think when I accepted the job, it's one of the things that I said I wanted to do. I didn't know where it was going to be, but I kind of said, hey, I'm interested in traveling and working in other places. I mean, Golder at the time has a big Canadian presence, so I wasn't sure it was gonna be in Canada, but it's something that I definitely wanted to do. And so I think once I started to, what I did is I spoke to a few ladies who had done it before me and found out about their experiences, things that they wish had been done better, things that had to be sorted through and kind of use that to propel myself. It was interesting, I mean, every time my mom would call and say, what's the time over there? I got fed up of trying to explain the time, but I'm like, mom, it's like 4 a.m. or whatever time, random times she would be calling me, but I mean, once you decide to do it, you get on that plane and you just, you know, no turning back now. And how would you say that those experiences, those overseas experiences have impacted you just beyond your career, like in life? Well, you know, it's, I think that it's always good for people to get out of their comfort zones and, you know, getting out, meeting new people. I have still have people that I consider my close friends in Australia that I feel like if I pick up the phone and say, hey guys, I'm coming over, they'd welcome me into their homes. You know, I still see their pictures on Facebook and we wish them happy birthday or whatever it is. So it just broadens your horizon. A couple of years ago, we were working on a project that we needed some help with some rock socket and drill shafts. And because of my connections with the guys in Australia, we were able to bring in some expert advice from them that helped with the project, you know. So it's just learning and just growing, just expanding. I was able to go over to New Zealand where my aunt had done her some dentures, she was a dentist, but before she was a dental hygienist, she had done some studies over in New Zealand and I was able to go over there and meet one of the ladies who helped her through it. And I stayed with them and it was, you know, it was just such a great experience to see all the places that my aunt had spoken about when I was a kid and you know, teach my aunt died a few years ago. So, you know, all those things definitely stay with me and, you know, just, I don't know how to explain it but just give you a different perspective on life. And, you know, sometimes we think that America is all that there is and, you know, that's not the case. So I'm not, I wasn't born here. So I don't think that, but you know. It's true, you know, I studied abroad as an engineer in Brussels, Belgium and, you know, I was just a college kid like having a good time at school and a friend of mine said, you know, we're going to go to Brussels. The engineering program has a program over there and I'm thinking of myself like, who would want to leave here? Like, I didn't know anything else, I was just, you know, outside of the US plus, like I was at college, like, you know, hanging out with people thinking like, this is fun. But luckily enough, I went and my wife who's also a civil engineer, she went on the trip as well. And, you know, it was definitely one of the greatest things we've done. And I think to your point, I think what it really does is it kind of like, you know, kind of like enriches you both professionally, you know, and personally and professionally, like you said, you learn different things, you met different professional contacts and build your network. And then on the personal side, you made relationships that you'll, I'm sure, continue to lean on for the rest of your life. And also it just, like you said, it broadens your horizon. It gets you out there traveling, understanding that there's a lot of different cultures out there, which is something that we don't always get to experience outside of our own country. So where were you born, Mesa? I was born in Dominica in the Caribbean. Okay. And when did you come? You came to the U.S. at some point? First? Yeah. Oh my goodness. I think it was 97 or 98. Okay. Somewhere around there. Yeah. All right. So that was like just before college, kind of a few years. Yeah. Okay. So Mesa, you came from outside of the U.S. and attended college here in the U.S., which I'm sure must have been very challenging for you. Can you talk about that experience and how it has affected your career overall? So it was interesting. I remember the first day that I went to class, civil engineering class at Manhattan College. And I walked in the room and lo and behold, there was another black girl in there. So my friend Denise, who works for the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey. Hi, Denise. And so it was, you know, I think we both smiled because we both probably felt a little bit less alone or a little bit less different. And I think, you know, it's weird because I was going through some of the questions and before we spoke and one of the things that I really wanted to touch on in some way is how much representation matters and how much not being represented, you know, has an effect on a person. And I don't think people who don't have that issue truly, you know, get it. I remember going to school in New Jersey and I think I did that as part of ASCEK through 12 or something, it was a career day. And I went to talk about being an engineer and I had little girls telling me that they didn't think black girls could be engineers. And I was like, what is that? Like, I don't, you know, I come from a place where I, you know, my dad always told me I could be anything. So I hear that was a little bit of a shock to me. And, you know, I've grown to learn and understand a lot more because every time I go to, you know, conferences and stuff, yeah, we're starting to see a lot more ladies, which is good, but there's still not many people of color, not many minority people reflected. So it's tough. Sometimes it's funny because it means that everyone remembers you because you're, you know, you're that person, but I don't remember people. So people are always talking to me, hey, you're at this conference again. And I'm like, where do I know this guy from? But I guess there's not that many, you know, black ladies at all the GMI conferences or whatever it is. Well, you have a personality that stands out. I hope so. I've only been talking to you for 30 minutes and I can tell that, you know, people can remember you for a lot of reasons, but, you know, going back to that for a minute, Masell, I mean, you know, we're going through times right now in the United States. I mean, we've gone through times, but just recently again, we had, you know, everything going on around, you know, George Floyd and racial inequality and protests and the Black Lives Matter movements. And do you feel like with everything going on, based on what you just told me, do you feel like even more like, you know, you do need to do some of this work and the STEM work and get out there and show, you know, young black girls that they can do these things? Do you ever feel that pressure? Do you feel like that's something that you, like it's your job to do that? Yeah, and I don't think of it as pressure. Like, I had this moment, a couple, like, you know, when I was not to get it political, but when I was looking at protestists in DC, getting pushed back, where I stood at the TV and literally cried. And then I went and asked my husband. I said, you know, what am I doing with my life? I said, I don't feel like I'm doing anything. I'm like, there are these people out there, you know, fighting for a change, putting their life on the line. And I don't know what I'm doing. I said, I don't know what's my legacy. I don't know what, you know, what change I'm effecting. And I called my buddy, Brian, who works with our company. And I said, Brian, have you recently thought of like what your legacy is? Hey, Brian. And it just, it made me feel like I wasn't doing enough. And I used to do a lot. So I used to be involved in all of these things. And then, you know, you get married and then kids come along. And, you know, it just seems like your focus changes. So what it has done for me is that it has made me, you know, say that I need to figure out how to get back out there and how to be more visible. Because I don't think of it as a pressure. I think of it as a privilege. I'm always trying to figure out ways to give back. And I want kids that look like me to know that, you know, it's possible and that, you know, their color or their country of origin or whatever should not be a determining factor in, you know, where they can go to in life. Even though I know that, you know, it can be, I just, you know, mentally, we gotta, we have this thing called mental slavery. You have to at least start to think that you can before you actually can, right? So I want them to see Macyl and say, you know, Macyl can do this. My niece thinks that I build every building in Tampa. So everything we pass by that's in construction. She says, Hensie, did you build that one? So in her head, she can build anything, you know, that's what I want other little girls to think that they can do. Yeah, that's great. And I think that, I think you're right. I think it's a privilege. I think that, and I think what's important is that, you know, every kid is different, of course. And, you know, different children of different cultures will look at people differently, right? And so, you know, if I were to go and speak in front of those girls that you talked about, you know, they might be like, wow, this is cool engineering, but if you're there and they see themselves in you, it's a totally different story. So like we all need to do, I think, our part, like in our own way and however we can do that. And it was, it's great to hear your story there about how you've got inspired around legacy because you have done, you know, a lot of STEM work in the past, I know, you know, from reading up a little bit about you in terms of the future city, the math counts, you know, the volunteering that you did with Goldertrust and tutoring refugee students. And so it obviously is important to you. And it sounds like it's had a very positive impact on you, I'm sure, just like the kids. Yeah, I mean, it has. I mean, Goldertrust is such a great thing that started once Goldertr started a office in South Africa and basically companies from all over the world do things to raise money for these different NGOs that work with offering kids. Most of the kids are often because they're, you know, because of HIV and AIDS. And so every year, and I don't know if they still do it, but every year they would have this volunteer trip to a different part of Africa to go spend time at one of those NGOs where it was all on you. You had to pay for everything and you spent two weeks, you know, it was, it was a two weeks a week. I can't remember, but so when I did it, our group went to Durban and we went to an orphanage there and again, you know, it was the first time I think these kids had seen one of the volunteers who was black. So again, it's just, you know, sometimes it, sometimes it feels a little daunting, but I, you know, if that's what it takes to hopefully have left an impression on someone, we helped them do homework, we built a playground for them, we cooked with them, we sand with them, we ate with them. And, you know, we just showed them our support. I mean, the trust bought an X-ray machine for the community that, you know, that a big issue that people with AIDS and HIV deal with, I think is TB, tuberculosis. So they were able to come in and get scans, people from that community. And we worked with doctors without borders. I saw nurses there who volunteered. So it was just great to be a part of that. And, you know, obviously we got to have a little fun and go, you know, do safari stuff. But it's just, I don't know how you put a dollar sign on, you know, things like that, you know, that experience. Yeah, for sure. Sounds amazing, sounds invaluable. And so I got two questions left for you, Miesel, before we put you on the civil engineering hot seat, which we have to do. The first question is for those civil engineers listening right now that are, you know, thinking about doing something different in their career, whether it be sales or whether it be, you know, working international, kind of taking a risk, I guess, more or less, like, what would you say to them? Go for it. I had a college professor once tell me, why would you want to do your masters at the same place you did your undergrad? He basically said, you're learning from the same people. He said, go out there, learn from different people, do different things. And I think that applies. You know, if you go out and you travel, you work somewhere, you're going to learn from different people, you're going to learn different approaches, things that when you come back home, if you do this, do decide to come back. So people go and stay, you know, that you can use. If you want to try sales, you know, go try it. If it doesn't work out, you know, there's always an engineer in front of looking for a geotech or we seem to be a dime a dozen. So, you know, I always say people have to live. You know, when people get upset and people leave companies to go do things, I was like, you know, companies keep going. Companies do what works for them. You have to do what works for you. You have to, if what works for you is trying something else, then, you know, by all means go for it. Yeah, that's a great, first of all, I love that philosophy of, you know, learn from different people. I think that that's great. But also what you said there, you know, it's kind of like what's the worst thing that can happen, right? Like it doesn't work out. You come back. I mean, listen, if you're in the world of infrastructure, civil, structural, geotechnical, you're going to have a job somewhere in the next 10, 20 years. I mean, there's no, you know, infrastructure is not going anywhere. It's getting worse and worse. So, you know, you could always double back and get a job somewhere. So that's a good way to, I think, think about it. All right, last question here for this segment. Let's say that it's time for you to retire whenever that may be, I don't know, 20 years from now, whatever it may be. And you had to kind of say, you know, this is what I want. You know, I wanted to accomplish this in my career. I did this in my career. What would that this be? What is that that you really want to accomplish? Kind of like getting back to your legacy that we talked about before. Huh, that's a good one. I think I want people to remember me as someone who cared. I think I have a big heart and sometimes that's good. Sometimes that's bad. It makes me a little bit too sensitive at times and maybe not let things drop as quickly as they should. But I would like, you know, to make a mark in such a way that when people remember me, they smile because I've had some, you know, kind of good influence on them. I think it goes back a lot to also that representation. I don't want to wherever life takes me, I don't want to fall into the background because I think I owe it to those coming after me to be visible, to be loud, to be outspoken. To be outspoken, I resisted for a long time doing anything like this. I'm just like, oh, it's just, you know, I'm just doing my thing. I don't need to go on a podcast so I don't need to have anything written about me. And I'm telling you, this year really changed my mind about stuff like that. So, you know, no more trying to be what they call it a shrink in violet. I want people to say, one, she cared and two, she was visible and, you know, maybe she made a little bit of a difference for me because maybe if, as I said, if she can do it, you know, maybe I can do it. I feel like I have a responsibility to my daughter and my nieces and those other little girls out there who don't think that they could do it to say, hey, you know, that you can do it and then it is possible. And to try to continue to work the foster environments that allow for them to be able to do it because that's a big part of, you know, getting there. That's great, Maiselin. And I think that if, you know, if a lot more people had that goal of, you know, wanting people to care for them, I think we'd be in a much better place over on the world. So I hope that that works out for you. All right, so stick around. We're going to come back with Maisel in a minute. We're going to finish up by putting her on the civil engineering hot seat for a few last questions. Stick around. I hope you are enjoying this episode of the Civil Engineering Podcast, which is produced by the Engineering Management Institute. Please be sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel here for more podcast episodes and for all of our engineering manager, 8020 Shorts videos that we publish weekly where we interview successful engineering managers. Now it's time to jump into our civil engineering hot seat segment. All right, we are back with Maisel Pascal from the Menard Group, and it's time to put Maisel on the civil engineering hot seat. All right, first question, Maisel, are there any specific rituals that you practice every day, you know, whether it's a morning routine or a lunchtime routine, realizing this may be totally different post COVID-19, but are there any things that you've done consistently throughout your career that have contributed to your success? I don't really think I have rituals. I don't like, I don't like things to be too structured. So I just, you know, go with the flow. I try to be thankful and realize that I'm blessed and thank God for his blessings. I don't know if I remember to do it every day, but it's something that, you know, I, if I had to think of a ritual that I shouldn't be doing, that'd probably be it. And just keep trying to stay true to myself, I guess. That's great. I mean, listen, your routine could be that you have no routines, right? I mean, everyone's different. So if they, whatever works for you, it works for you. So all right, another question here. What is one book that you might have recommended to engineers or just one book that might have been helpful for you personally or professionally? Any book that comes to mind if someone said, you know, you could take one book with you somewhere you're going away. So I always laugh when people ask me about books because I say I used to read. So when I was like in my 20s, I was like reading every, you know, biography and all of these different things. And I don't, I feel like, I don't know what happened in my 30s, but I've definitely slowed down on the reading. But one book I would say is The Alchemist. Alchemist by Paulo Coelho. Yeah, great book. And I mean, that book is just, it's a small book, but it has a lot, it packs a lot of punch, right? And it talks so much about fulfilling your destiny and that sometimes you go on this long journey to try to find this thing that you think is what you're destined for when it was right back where you started because you didn't open your eyes to see it. So I think that's probably a good book for anyone who's thinking about making a change or, you know, trying to figure out what's their next move. They probably offer some inspiration. Yeah, that's a great book for anybody, you know, whether you're making a move or not really. And it is a small, and I think a relatively quick read. I think I've read it like five times at this point because I just love the ending in the book and the story and I've told the story of my kids. But yeah, that's a great book, the Alchemist by Paulo Coelho. Definitely check it out if you haven't. And Macell, for a second there, you sounded like my teenage daughter. I used to read, that's what she tells us until she got a phone and now, you know, that's out the window. But no, reading is hard to keep up with really for people, honestly. I mean, that's why we do the podcast just because a lot of people don't have time to read that much anymore. And so there's different ways to stay informed. But certainly a great book there. All right, we've got one final question for you, Macell. We call it the Civil Engineering Career Elevator Advice Questions. So if you got into an elevator with a civil engineer and you had 30 to 40 seconds with him or her to give career advice in that short period of time, what would that advice be? So I think it goes, some of what I've already said in terms of learning from people, try to keep learning and keep growing. I don't think there's ever a time not to. I had a boss make a joke that he was too old to learn a new program. And sometimes I feel that way, but you have to keep keeping our minds open. I think give credit. Give credit where credit is due. That's I don't like when people don't give credit. That's a peeve of mine. Acknowledge when you made a mistake, own up to it. Speaking truth, at least try to. We're not perfect if we're not, but I think especially with your coworkers and people that you want to build a trust with, speaking in truth and speaking up when it matters is important. Un-truth can make a workplace debilitated. The lack of trust can make things definitely hard. I mean, so just speaking truth, I would say mentor if you can. I've had some great mentors along the way, people like Bob Steadcar at Golder who as a young woman coming to a new company with a little bit of experience. I mean, that man, I would say, took me under his wing. He never spoke over me. He always listened. He explained. He took his time to edit stuff and explained to me why make comments and take me on meetings whenever possible. And he's someone that, even if I wasn't in the room and someone said something about me that I would have always felt had my back. So have your people's backs. It goes a long way in developing trust. And I think trust is something that will take you a long way in your career because when people trust you and they believe in you, I think it makes a world of difference. So keep learning, speak your truth, give credit, give back how, if you can, even if it's in the smallest of ways it'll make the biggest difference. That's great. And that'd be a very, very valuable elevator ride for a civil engineer to get that advice. And I think all our listeners are gonna enjoy it. Mason, I think you have a great personality. You've got great stories. You've accomplished so much in your career and I'm really happy that you spent some time when it's here on the podcast and I'm confident that you're gonna certainly achieve that legacy. I think we're lucky to have someone like you in the civil engineering field. So thanks for taking the time with us today. Thank you so much for having me. I hope you enjoyed this episode of the Civil Engineering Podcast on YouTube produced by the Engineering Management Institute. We're always looking for new ways to help engineers become effective managers and leaders. You can view all of our content on our website at engineeringmanagementinstitute.org and be sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel here for our weekly videos. Until next time, please continue to engineer your own success.