 Hello and welcome to NewsClick. It's almost 4 months since violence broke out in Manipur on the 3rd of May. Ever since then, there have been sporadic incidents of violence and killings in the state. In the midst of the violence and the creation of buffer zones between two communities who have been fighting in Manipur, there was also a one day assembly session held in the state just a couple of days ago. The assembly session actually led to more protests, actually gatherings in the streets of Manipur where people expressed their anger towards the government. Today we are joined by Ayesha Savir who is an independent journalist and has been writing for NewsClick. She has been reporting from Manipur ever since the conflict began. And we also have Vida Siddhantane who has also gone and reported from Manipur on the earlier days of the violence. Let's ask them what they think about the current situation and if anything has changed at all since the early weeks of the violence. Ayesha, let's begin with you. You were actually there in Manipur on the day of this one day session of the assembly. What was the scenario like? The news reports say that people were gathering. Did you see any of that? I saw unorganized gathering. I wouldn't call it a rally of any sort. But people were quite unhappy with the way the session had proceeded. And the fact that it did not conclude into something to begin with not many were hopeful but they still wanted some outcome of it. And that did not happen. It was something around 11 minutes that the session was for with a break of 30 minutes and a ruckus. Chaos ruckus and not much happened but people were still unhappy and they still are to begin with. In fact, you know, you've written in news reports for Newsclick as well that there are actually crowds of people who are roaming around in Imphal and there's sounds of gunfire which you hear. Now the thing is that this whole idea of separating the cookies and the metes from each other has been sort of the linchpin of the discussions among the communities and all the discussion even in the political circles has been around whether that's possible or not possible. So when there is a one-day session and the metes make up the population of Imphal Valley right now. So would it be correct to assume that to understand that it is the metes who are extremely upset with the government which is bringing them out on the streets? The metes are in this session definitely the public was in Imphal very outraged. Cookies were never hopeful to begin with because they knew their MLAs had boycotted it. It wasn't even safe to travel to Imphal to attend the session and knowing that it is a metes dominated session they did not want to participate. A dialogue that the central government has been asking you know the state to have with the two communities that is only possible when the mediator is someone neutral that both communities have faith in. But if you ask one community to initiate a conversation with the other community which has in a way already separated you know there is a divide between the hills and the valley now a permanent sort of divide. So a dialogue is just next to impossible. So a session that is dominated by metes not it will be a very one-sided session. So anything that could have even if the session had lasted for long and had it continued for days it would still be one-sided the other side has not been heard. I just wanted to jump in. Despite that what Ayesha is saying is absolutely spot-on and but despite the fact that those attending this assembly session except the six opposition MLAs 6 to 44 I think would be the number. So it's essentially talking to your own people right these are either sort of connected by community which is that they are metes the opposition MLAs that is or the ten Nagas who are part of the wider government structure. So if you are unable to even have a conversation regarding the situation on the ground today with people who are essentially already mostly on your side then what are what sort of indication are you giving to anyone outside of these communities that you are in a position to engage with the wider population of Manipur. Right and does it also show that the mete population living in infar is not a monolith like many of the news reports say like the government would like to claim make many claims on behalf of the metes but there is widespread dissatisfaction or there is a strong amount of opposition to the government what it has done so far in the last four months would that be correct as well? Absolutely yeah it's not at all sort of single identity with you know a single sort of socio-economic background a single cultural identity in some ways in the sense that they follow different religions for example we've been talking about what's happening with Pangals. Pangals are mete Pangals. Right. They are part of the mete community. Similarly there's a small section of mete Christians which we which so far I think mostly for fear of the kind of reprisal they might face have completely sort of blended into the background and their concerns are seem furthest away from what anyone is willing to address or look at at this point. We did an interview with Megan who is the former head of the UNLF one of the band militant groups mete the valley-based militant groups and he was saying that the idea of the mete is an inclusive idea right so it doesn't it's it's not a simple binary in the way that a Hindu Muslim sort of equation is in the rest of India so in that sense conversations around what is the mete community etc etc have not been had in that detail and and for a wider audience in India it it some sometimes is boiled down to that this entire section just because they belong to the valley in that sense the Manipuri sort of community is a single identity which it is not. And you know it's been four months since you when three months since you were in Manipur but Ayesha has been there twice so you were thrice you were there before the conflict actually started and then you spent a long time they came back and you went back so how between the two of you both of you how has the situation changed or altered in this very long period. So there was a big conflict May 3 May 4 May still May 7 that phase then it reduced but May and June there were sparks like you know of big outrages I would like to call them but it's consistent in a way in the periphery area when you just step out of a south infall you know the districts where it's clashing with a Bishnupur and Churchandpur or Kampok Pee in those areas in the smaller villages there's gunfiring every other day even till now in fact today morning also so that's on Thursday morning yes no I mean today morning yeah the Thursday morning yes so it continues it's just that it doesn't make it to the mainstream headlines so people are not aware of it but it's definitely happening on ground. Sitan from the reports that you see now does it seem very markedly different from the situation you saw then the between the two communities in particular. No I mean I think like we were reporting then and have since there's a stalemate the borders have been created the buffer zones are in place and part of the reason why like Aisha is pointing out the violation the violence is under control is because these buffer zones are in place the buffer zones are then police monitored controlled by mostly central forces whether it's the army the Assam rifles or BSF CRPF so many agencies are operating there now so because of that buffer zone there is no to and fro movement at all of pretty much anyone except the press hopefully and and and they're supposed to be for example humanitarian aid that is allowed through that's not happening either you're infall being the only airport in the state that it has a critical role in that regard so nothing has changed in terms of the sort of political objective of the cookie side it remains a separate administration demand which has only intensified I think also like we carried an interview with the head the head of the media cell of the ITLF Kinjar Walzong saying that over the course of this violence what was initially a demand voiced by the suspension of operation groups on the cookie side has now become a kind of societal demand so civil society organizations common people everyone is kind of demanding this separate administration on the cookie side on the methane side because like again like we have pointed out before that because of the geographical situation that the methods today find them in themselves and limited to that central sort of circle in the infall valley and with no access outside it has shifted to a public call for maintaining what they are calling the territorial integrity of Manipur right so those lines are now clearly drawn we can get into the nuances of territorial integrity and all but maybe we can keep that right for a different you know I said territorial integrity immediately reminds me of one of your reports again published in news click which is actually about a border area where Myanmar is close by and then you have Manipur and you have the metis insisting that they will stay on over there we're talking about more a can you can you talk about this demand it seems very unusual a community which is under siege in that area wanting to stay on why right so I'll begin with explaining in Churchampur for example and Kampukpe it's a cookie dominated cookies oh me dominated area right my these are minority there and they had to move back to involve in the riots broke in more a it's a Cosmo crowd there are Bihari's Punjabi's Tamilians my taste cookies all living in a district comprising of cookies so techno Paul where more is it's a border town and a business hub so nobody wants to leave that now on May 3 when the violence broke out metis fled to the other side they fled into Myanmar and they were later recently brought back around 442 metis have been brought back they have half of them have been placed in the Assam rifles headquarters in techno Paul for the moment the government has of course put up a different shelter homes sort of set ups or relief camps and there is an option of taking them there which would be in the valley but they are insisting on staying on in more a reason being because it is a very good opportunity place where they can do business across the border later on they don't want to and these will be the last of metis if they leave there will be no more metis and more but there's no possibility of actually being living there and conducting a normal life having a business so then why do you want to be there when it's possibly not safe it is definitely not safe but that's where they want help from the government they want the government to set up something a sort of buffer area for metis to live there which will be well protected and they can continue and you know go back to living a normal life but it seems like it seems like an impossible demand considering the situation and the tension there sit on what do you think you've been to more a what do you think is is it possible really to think of this as being anything but a political demand to have security yes within a corner of the state where your community you know is divided from the cookies from the hill areas essentially and then you want to sort of insist on staying on there you can understand the livelihood concerns that people have and concerns about their future but but it seems it seems as if there is some politics behind this demand or at least without politics you can't have raised such a demand yeah I mean this issue actually it became a bit of an issue a few weeks ago when the money for government wanted to move some state police forces state security forces into more a town and into that area where I think the ITLF and Co2 and others responded quite aggressively saying that you know this is not a possibility because from their point of view these are the forces who have targeted them when the violence broke out and and ever since so they want only central forces there and it seems that that is another sort of interesting divide that all of these for example they the rescues or the evacuee repatriation that I shall was talking about has also been done by the army and the assam so despite the fact that all of these people have been in some way helped or saved by either the army or the assam rifles there is also political opposition to the presence of central forces from the metiside pretty pretty pretty loud and and clear so how how this will pan out I mean they will want a buffer then created where the security forces are their own people not central government forces probably because that won't fit in with you know other political narratives that are going on but the economic sort of the other political aspects of it are of course there is an ongoing insurgency in in the state there are outfits that are still banned and therefore holding continuing to hold have a foothold in more in the border areas is vital also I think many of the metis who live outside of the infall valley do so because they have been unable to find the economic opportunity livelihood sustenance in the valley itself for many reasons even whether it's those who were living in churchandpur till the violence began or those who are living in more it's it's at least possible to find some kind of livelihood so so that that is front and center and if you've lived somewhere for a lot of this is about land and and where you come from and roots and all of those things so if you have lived somewhere for a couple of generations you consider that your home when for example these temporary houses have been constructed by the government that debate was happening where it should should they be built where they are today or where they have come from right now to build where they have come from means you have to move people back we are nowhere close to a situation where people in large numbers can be moved back to where they lived before May 3rd is is there similar demand from the metis on the churchandpur side etc where people have moved towards the valley or into relief camps some individual families do wish they could go back but they are aware that it won't be safe for them hence they are they're okay with making a sort of compromise on that front but this is where I was pointing out that in more I found this to be very different that metis who were earlier previously living in Kanpur, Piyar, Chuncharpur or any other district are okay to adjust you know but obviously the ideal wish would be to go back to their own house but they also understand the current situation and they understand the divide they know that again a lot of them face trauma also so for them to go back to that same area and you know live feeling threatened and that goes for both communities right but for more it's a different sort of a demand they want it so so in a sense that whatever the government does the acquisition of being partisan will follow it if it tries to resettle people then in more and churachandpur the difference in the attitude in both areas will stand out so and and the peace process has not begun but there are a lot of there is a committee which has been set up there is a lot of reporting about discussions between the home ministry in Delhi and various teams visiting from Manipur is that not going to be useful in the long run? It's hard to say at this point what the discussions are exactly what sort of promises are being made to which side and also I mean today I was looking at a statement from Chief Minister Birayan Singh talking about the need for methi society to structure itself to get a bit organized to identify bodies that represent its demands in a cohesive manner so that the government can understand who to negotiate with so four months into this issue the Chief Minister of Manipur who is from Manipur itself not from somewhere else is trying to identify a body to discuss methi demands with I mean I mean the question arises who who does he want to answer this question right who who's supposed to answer this question the government is supposed to know or at least make that effort on its own right and Kokomi before that which is this coordinating sort of committee that brings together a lot of organizations which on I think if I'm not wrong about the date but on the 8th of June in a large event in a televised press conference declared war on what it called cookie Nako terrorists but essentially meaning the cookie community right that was underplayed a few days later and very quickly but today the Home Ministry is having discussions with that same organization right so peace plans peace talks I think on those fronts they seem very little movement the only sort of small things we saw was in these buffer areas the peripheral areas of the infall valley where literally cookie and methi are kind of across like a small strip from each other their central government forces who are stationed are kind of setting up local peace committees where they're getting locals together to say okay let's say let's say you have a piece of land and I have a piece of land you farm from 5 in the morning till noon and then from noon to 5 p.m. it's my time so that we can you know at least go about our business without violence plant our party do do whatever we need to start to build a bit of confidence that was existing earlier because as unrealistic as the separate administration demand is it's not also going to magically go away and and become what it was on May 3rd even if one community decides to say we are sorry which is also a point we have not reached right so then again with you the point is also that bodies like the ITLF have been in discussion with the home ministry at the center and the basic question that they're that they were discussing just earlier this month was how to get bodies back from a morgue in infall now that seems like something very very basic you know quickly can you run us through where they are right now and why this issue should why should the home ministry at the center be in a position to have to meet you know negotiate something so basic because only sort of central government forces are in a position to actually make that happen physically but they are only able to do it the minute the general public is aware that there are cookie bodies that are being moved from infall to to the hills there will be mass sort of agitation against that on the streets and on the roads where they have to travel from so the only possibility is to do it by air which would probably require fo helicopters and and you know people to personnel to get that done so that's why the central government has to be involved because there's no conversation between the government in infall and these hill districts so so you were there in infall when actually this whole episode of the the burial was unfolding what was that like what was the scenario like that day so there was protest from the Mehdi side because I was coming from the city so I was on this side of the border but the other side was holding a mass burial and they wanted the bodies to come through now interestingly the home ministry had already informed that the bodies will not be sent today on the same day early morning when notification had been issued people were aware that the burial will not happen but they had mobilized throughout the night to for a protest and they executed that you know so be it confiring be it motor bombs throwing all of that did take place knowing that they would want to do a mass burial on a land that they metis claim to be theirs and the cookies claim to be theirs you know for something that they thought that the other community is thinking of doing that itself triggered so much while nobody's were transported so you can imagine the kind of you know hatred that there is and when you talk about peace you know I wanted to add for that the violence has to stop for that to happen a dialogue needs to be initiated you know it cannot happen with ongoing violence you know right and one of the important things that's coming up now is constantly talk about political solution and I guess the assembly of a state is a place where you're supposed to be able to discuss and debate that sedan is there any likelihood of this situation actually improving what's your impression from the trips you took there as well as people whom you have been in touch with constantly what do they say it's very difficult it's very difficult and you know I mean I think several people who have visited the state not not just reporters but opposition party members the people in the metis community as well have publicly voiced how little the Biren Singh government has been able to do to inspire confidence among its own people forget about anyone else so in that sort of scenario to expect that this government has the ability to like I was saying it's not unbiased by any stretch so so to assume that the government a represents all of Manipur and therefore is able to take into account all of Manipur's interest is just an idea that doesn't exist and and you cannot have a process of dialogue where the other side is unwilling to engage with or nobody's willing to where arms are still spread oh yeah yeah so every few days we have news of one small cache of arms and ammunition that is recovered but if you the sheer numbers that are missing just from state armories shows the extent to which the militarization is there and and the presence of also the 10 Naga MLAs at the assembly session is also indicative of how much more complex this issue is going to get in the next few months in fact all the way till the lead up to the general elections in 2024 also some state elections coming up in the neighborhood so so it's likely to get much more complex and I don't think there's any seriousness unfortunately doesn't look like there's any real political will to find any or to even work towards any solution maybe the the concentration is on finding or ending the violence but even there I mean I'm spent quite a bit of time in infall it's hard to find serious attempts to control mobs to identify the leaders or the leadership of these sort of mob related movements and bring them to some kind of justice to show that anything is being done we have now documented cases of horrific crimes having taken place and and none of it has been sort of addressed in any real manner so where I mean we're at pretty much square zero alright so Dan thanks very much and thanks very much for joining us Aisha and that's all we have for you today thanks very much for watching this discussion and we'll be bringing more reports and ground reports included from Manipur please keep watching news click