 Hey, Gulfconn Giants family, Eric Coffey here, your host. Before we get started introducing our next guest, I just want to remind everyone that if you go to our website, GulfconnGiants.com, Fort slash pricing, you're going to see our webinar with John, Maria, and myself. So, take a look at that webinar on how to grow your business in the federal contracting arena on our website right now today. Now, today's guest is Roberta Moore. We're bringing her back. She was on just a few weeks ago, but when we finished and we concluded the recording of that episode, she said, Eric, I've got so many more stories that I want to share that I couldn't get out. And so we decided to bring her back on and share some of those stories. I tell you, if you are a service-based business, if you're a woman-owned business, if you are just growing your business, I'm telling you, you're going to learn a lot of lessons from today's recording because Roberta shares and reveals how she hired a friend and she bypassed some of her own rules and operation procedures in her organization to hire this person. And it turned out to be a disaster, pretty much. So we revealed that story and some other stories in the show today. We go deeper and dive into some of the dramatic events surrounding the ups and downs of her journey. So stay tuned for this upcoming part two edition with Roberta Moore. And having a conversation, it's easier for me. But when you know that the cameras are rolling, then it gets a little difficult. With that said, you said you have a million stories. Let's talk about them. Tell me one of your stories. About which one? Whichever one you would like to share. Because remember, the idea is that we're here to help small businesses. And we want them to be aware of the challenges, some of the roadblocks, maybe some of the pitfalls, some of the things that they're going to encounter along the way. So tell us a story about an obstacle that you had to face and how you overcame it. Let's start there. All right. That's a big story. You want to hear that story? We have 40 minutes. Okay. All right. All right. So I have this story where I went to a retirement luncheon or one of my, he approved my invoices. But he was retiring from the federal government. So I went to his retirement luncheon and I sat beside a decision maker. I don't want to say the brink. I sat beside a decision maker at the retirement luncheon. And so he was so frustrated. He just came out of this meeting and this contractor was like, had him up against the wall. And so I was saying, you know, I can help you out. And I'm an A-day. And then he looked around the room because he thought everybody there was government. So he didn't realize that I was a contractor. So he started asking one of the other contractors that was there. She was, she worked for a big company, but she was just there to process invoices and to be like a contracting officer, assistant type person. So he was like, are you an A-day? She was like, oh, no, I'm not. And so as the conversation goes, I end up following him back to the facility. He's going into a meeting with them to finish the meeting. I'm waiting outside because he's going to bring me into the meeting to let them know that, you know, we don't need you. So it was like the last, yes, it was the last hour they were going to increase their price, like 30%, because they knew that they needed them. I mean, it was a 24 hour facility. It was, right. And it was like the contractor's going to end tonight at midnight. So we need to have that to stay to the government. Right. And this is a Friday. This is a Friday. So, right, exactly. So I go back, I'm sitting outside the conference room and he never invites me in. So he never invites me into the meeting because he realized that that was unethical and it wasn't the right thing to do to bring another contractor in. So after the meeting, he's still like livid. So I tell him like, wait a minute, you're a paying customer. They have no right to treat you like this. Yada, yada, yada. So I was given my spill. Believe it or not, I ended up winning the contract and starting the next day on a Saturday. So I transitioned 150 employees in like one day. So I got my whole staff there. We were, you know, signing everybody over, explaining to the staff that basically what's going to happen is, is that you're going to work tonight, but you're going to get paid from a more incorporated starting tonight. So we went through that whole process. It was, it was such a night near the, the incumbent contractor ended up going to the press, and they started saying that we weren't qualified for the contract, so on and so forth. I didn't see it though. The high official ended up telling me about that. So they went to the press about it and it was a bridge contract. So they were allowed to do it because we were a bridge while they were waiting to award the contract. Right. So anyway, that contract, I ended up getting working with a colleague of mine and we were going to split it 50-50. So we were going to help with the payroll. So the first payroll came up to maybe like 150,000 or something like that. So every two weeks it was like a couple of like 150,000. So 300,000. So I'm expecting that he's going to give me half of the payroll. Well, he leaves me high and dry. So he doesn't pay me. He doesn't help me with the payroll. Then he got me some equipment. The equipment was broken. I had to put money into the equipment. I ended up buying like $150,000 worth of equipment and then the thing about it is, so say the contract starts on February 1, but I want to say March 15, I received a lawsuit for a million dollars and I stayed in that lawsuit. Yeah, that was the thing that I did not think I was going to survive. And I think we mentioned that last time when we were talking about how I went through that lawsuit for a million dollars and that really took life out of my 8A because I was fighting. I was fighting that frivolous lawsuit for at least two years or so. And so no one made any money except for the lawyers. I mean, I know my attorney made out, he made out great, but nobody made money. I had this big weight over my head dealing with that. So I think it kind of crippled me a little and I ended up getting through the process, but it was so difficult. And that was the time when I ended up calling my mother in the middle of the night and I couldn't sleep because I received this. But the worst part about this whole thing is that I had a best friend from my neighborhood that I ended up hiring and he got in bed with the guy who was suing me. So he was in my office, on my staff, everything. So I had to go in because it was time to renew the contract. Like the bridge was only for X amount of months or six months or whatever the case may be. So it was time to renew it. It had option periods in it. It was time for the option period. Well, the guy that grew up with me, he was working for me, he was like my COO and he ended up getting in bed with them, trying to take the contract from me, take it to another company while he was sitting in my office. So I had to do the hard thing of going in that Friday. That Friday he left me, I had to respond back to the government. They gave me like 24 hours. He decided to go on vacation, not tell me, not answer my calls. Yeah, it was a nightmare. So he wouldn't answer any of my calls. I got everything through and it was due like at close of business. So they gave me like 24 hours to respond. It was due like, like I said that Friday. Well, that Friday I had a neurosurgeon coming in as well to get a job. Like I had a contract for a neurosurgeon as well. So he was coming in for his interview. Lo and behold, I'm in my office working on this response. He goes into my coffee room. He says, you have a coffee mess? I said, yes, it's in the kitchen. He goes into the kitchen. He makes the coffee, brings me coffee in my office. The neurosurgeon. This is a neurosurgeon. He brings me coffee in my office as I'm working for a way to finally hit the send button. So I'm like working. I was so stressed out. He brings me the coffee. And then our HR girl, she finally comes in. I tell him, you go in the conference room. And she interviews him because we're going to hire him. He went over. We knew we wanted him, but it was formality. So he brings me coffee, which was like a savior in the middle of me working all night long, trying to get this response in. I was left by myself, no help. And then from there, it was like another Saturday where they told me that the contract was, they had exercised the option period with me, with Amor. So he wasn't aware of that. In the process, while he wasn't there, he was working with the other company to get the contract sent over to him. It was doggy dog. I mean, it was just so doggy dog. It was like, I couldn't, I wouldn't even do that. I mean, I think they say like, there are rules. Like if you grow up with somebody, how could you be, how could you do such a thing? You know, but it was greed. It was money. He wanted the deal that I had with the other colleague as a subcontractor. I wasn't willing to do that. Why would I go into a separate agreement with you when I already have one with him with the other contractor? It was just a nightmare. And here I am, a woman, my boys were young at the time. So they couldn't really, you know, do anything. But I asked them to come to the office because that Monday morning, he was in my office, answering the phone like seven AM, he was right in the office ready to go. He was waiting to hear the call from the government to say that we didn't have the contract anymore. He was, you know, he wanted to get intercept the call. And so he was there working really hard. And I had to go in like over the weekend, I'd already received the email that they exercise the option period. So I was thinking, I'm going to go in and tell him that he's fired because you, I mean, you don't answer my calls. You don't answer my calls. You just, exactly. Right. And I didn't even know. So mind you, at this rate, I didn't know that he was working with the other company. I had no idea. So when I went in to fire him, he got a rate, like he left. He started packing up his stuff. And I saw him like sending emails, company emails to his personal email. So I went back there and, you know, kind of said, you know, is everything okay? And he was, he was like, okay, like, you know, he stopped. So I was, I was just like, give us a key, give us everything. And so he left. Well, he calls me. And because he wasn't aware that we had the contract. So he, when they, when they found out that they didn't get the contract and that it was awarded back to Amora, they called him thinking that he was in bed with me, like that we had. Right. And so he thought that in turn, I was in bed with them. So he calls me telling me that they called him and what they said. And that's how I found out that they were working together against me. It was, it was horrible. So you fired him for a different reason. Yeah, I fired him for non-performance. And also he was insubordinate. Like he was acting like, you know, I didn't have a right to ask him or, you know, that kind of thing. So really I was firing him from insubordination, but not knowing that he actually was in bed with the guy that was suing me. So I say all of that to say that that, I mean, I didn't think I was gonna live through it. Eric, I told you that, that I had no idea that I was going to live through that. And it got so ugly that when we were getting ready to go to court, I mean, and they put this in federal court in DC. So what was that? What was the nature of the lawsuit? Fraud. I think they said I fraud or something. I don't know. It was frivolous. It was frivolous and that I owed them and I had this contract. It was, it was outrageous. So actually the judge met with us several times and she said, you know, you guys are young. You're good looking. You guys could be working on your business instead of being here. And she even told him that he let me down. He said, yes, she said, you let her down. Mind you, Eric, I did this guy's 8A for him. Yes, I did his 8A for him. I did his hub zone for him. So I say to all of that to say that it's a doggy dog world. You have to know who you're getting involved with. Even if they're friends and they've been with you, like you grew up with them, it doesn't mean anything because money changed people. When people see money, they start to change it. I mean, they do things that you, they probably weren't aware that they were capable of doing. So you have to have integrity. You have to have morals. And it's not about what you think about me because I'm sure they think that I'm, you know, a horrible shrewd business woman, so on and so forth. But I just felt like here I've built this business on my back with three boys by myself out of the mud. I did not like have a silver spoon in my mouth. I've worked hard and I'm not even out of the woods now. You know, I have 19 years of business, but I'm not out of the woods. I'm still, you know, I have endurance and perseverance that I'm sticking to, to what I know. But it was an experience that I can't, I mean, I don't think we have enough time to go into all of the details, but toward the end, and then this is the worst part about it. Because toward the end of it, my lawyer called in, I had offered a certain amount, like I had gotten down to bare minimum, and I had offered that amount of money. And my, and I said, no, we're going to court because I think court was like Monday or so. It was like the following week. So I had two years to fester and to think about fighting this thing in court. And now you guys want to settle. Right. I was like, no, we're going to fight. My lawyer said, Roberta, this was your offer. You know, you have to be reasonable here. They're accepting your offer. So I had to drill myself in and realize that, okay, now it's over. It was fabulous. And you have to go on with life. So I ended up doing that. But it was, it was a nightmare. Wow. That's a great story. That's a great story. I love it. Yeah. That's great. Now, again, every single guest that I've interviewed, they've have scars, right? And so this is, this is business. And I've gone through lawsuits, two lawsuits, and it's part of the nature of doing business. What other things would you say that as a small business, anything else that you could think of that like we might go through that we can expect and to be prepared for? Scars. Oh yeah. So that was a big scar. That was a big scar. And one of my really good friends told me, they were like, well, you know, you're not a real business until someone sues you. So I think you shouldn't feel so bad about that, you know, but it's just it hit me when I knew I was doing everything right. So in the middle of working on trying to fulfill the requirement, and that was like jumping through hoops. So can you imagine having the weight of that over your head, along with somebody else sending you a lawsuit and having treachery within your camp? You know, so I say that you're going to get a lot of battle scars. You're going to get a lot of battle scars. The thing about it is, is that is to not pick them, not pick the wound and to heal from it. But there are things, I mean, you could work so hard on a proposal and lose by very little, like the numbers game, especially when it became LTPA, lowest price technically accepted. But that could hurt you. It could cut your prices. I mean, there are so many battle scars. I'm trying to get financing. That's been a difficult road. So it's just going through the process and healing from it and, you know, and keep having endurance and moving forward. I think that's great. I think that's great. More along the lines of the, you didn't have any mentors that you looked up to. So tell us some of the positive things that your mentors shared. I know that was one quote that you gave us. Some of the other positive things that your mentors shared along the way, because one of the things that, that you mentioned was about the lawsuit, but what I heard was how you onboarded 150 people in one day. That to me is remarkable, right? That takes, I mean, one of my students, she had to onboard 40 something people in a weekend, but that contract led to her business taken off. And then I have another student who was given opportunity for trucking, for like to provide like 40, 50 trucks that she could not fulfill. And so her business never took off. So, you know, you onboarding those 150 people is pretty remarkable. How did you do that? Like, how did you do it so quickly? What made you believe that you can actually, and it wasn't within one day, because then you just meet. Yes. Yes. The beauty of that one, Eric, is that they were incumbent employees, so they were already in place. Yeah, but you still had to do something. Yes, I did. And, and so you have to remember that the government was in a crisis. And so I helped them out. So in turn, I had access to the people because they were made aware that this is the new contractor. And so then I was able to have a all hands meeting and, and yeah, so it's, it's not as easy when you have to get people fresh, you know, this is a brand new contract. These people have never been in place. But even with picking up the incumbent employees, you're going to have to go through them, you're going to sit through eventually, because all of them are, you know, aren't going to be a good fit for your organization. But that that's difficult to having a contract and not being able to fulfill it. Right, right. Absolutely. That's when you have to make alliances and have relationships with other companies because, you know, to have a contract in hand and have, you know, the opportunity to fulfill those FTEs, any, another company could really help you. So yeah, sometimes some great mentors. Okay, tell us, tell us about some of the, some of the things that you remember that they, they help shape and guide you, some of the advice that we were given. Okay, well, I did mention Deborah Scott-Thomas. I mentioned it. Yes, right. We did talk about her last time. Yeah. Oh, Deborah Scott-Thomas. Like, so some of the things that they told you that really stuck with you in business before starting out. One of the things that is invaluable is that she gave me the back office. So I had, I had the infrastructure in order to have my HR department together. So had I not had that infrastructure, it would have been more difficult to transition those 150 employees. I had everything in place in order to do that. So that's one of the things, and I said that she says your success is my success and my success is your success, which is true because over time, we reach back to each other. And so based on where you are, you could actually reach back to someone else or vice versa, and then bring you a contract, bring you some other opportunities and help one another. So that was one of the things. The other thing is, is that, I mean, she worked like nobody's business. So the work ethic was something that you, I mean, just seeing that in action. So that has impressed upon me that work ethic as well. The other thing is, is that she gave me an office in her office week. Yes. So early on, I had an office in her office week with my name on the door. And that's something that, you know, most people don't give back to that extent. She gave me an office, a computer, she gave me access to her staff. She allowed me to be in those BD meetings in the war room to bring opportunities. So in other words, although I was a small business, I had the, the infrastructure of a mid to large size business and we went and did our mentor protege agreement through SBA. So we made it official. Wow. What I like about that. Now, how did you, how did you meet her? Remember the DIA deal? Remember with the building up the infrastructure and Baghdad? Oh yeah. But how did you get to that? How did you get to that deal again? Remind everyone who may not have heard the first story on the first recording. I just really, how did you get to that Baghdad deal? Okay. I was at a conference and then I, when I was leaving and I felt like I had worked the room. I had worked the conference. I had met everybody shook all the hay. And there was one guy sitting there with his laptop open in his glasses. And I said, Oh, he looks smart. I said, I'm going to give him this card. And then I told him that I had IT professionals that were clear. They had a top secret facilities clearance. And so he was a top secret clearance, not facilities, but so after that he passed the information on to Deborah Scott Thomas. And then that's how I got the phone call. At the time I was still working with Melanie. And she was interested in those cleared IT professionals because they had to have a top secret to work this position to actually go to Baghdad and work on building up the infrastructure. So I gave the first right of refusal to my boss at the time. And he said he didn't want anything to do with Baghdad. And she said, Well, you're, you're a hub zone certified. And I said, Yes, I am. She said, Well, I want to work with you. And that's where the relationship began. And so I say that to say that she saw me as a, an African American young female. So she, she saw herself. Right. She saw what she had done. And she saw what I was doing. And so she wanted to give back. And that's the beauty of it. Women, we help each other more than we realize we can do so much more when we work together and help women. Right. Right. You know, I love about the story is that sometimes, you know, when I'm talking to other small business entrepreneurs, they believe they have to have everything in place. And they don't realize there are people out there that are willing to help and are willing to give back. And I continue to hear that from so many of my successful guests is that someone reached back and helped them. And so this person helped me. And even Mike Mello, who just was on my show, the first question I asked him is, why are you doing this interview? And he says, because of all of those people that helped me when I was first getting started. And now it's my turn to reach back and help someone else. So I think that's great. You sharing that story of her providing you with the back office support, which allowed you to be able to support or onboard those 150 persons. I have more to it. She actually gave me money. She gave me money. Yeah. And she was yes, with my first payroll. So yeah, then that wasn't that 150. That was after I left her office. I had my own office space. That happened later. But when she initially mentored me, she gave me money to meet payroll and to take care of my expenses and reference to insurance and, you know, fringe benefits and all of those things for my employees. And of course I paid her back. I mean, I paid her back for money. And the same with Ellen, he gave me money as well. I mean, I think he gave me, it wasn't anything big. It was maybe like $30,000 or something or something. Yeah. I gave him the cash back. I wrote him a check and gave him the money back because I had gotten a contract. And so I was able to pay him. But prior to that, I was paying him like $230 a month. And then with Deborah Scott Thomas, she gave me like $50,000. And then yeah, when I moved out of her space and into my own space, I ended up, you know, wiring her the money back. But I say that to say that there are people that will help you if they see that you're helping yourself and that you're making a difference and if you're trying. And so yeah, but I think that's one of the things we were talking about, getting it out of the mud. And my mom gave me $10,000 when I first started the business. So, and that didn't get me very far, but it helped. So I mean, you know, the thing is, and it's interesting, on my last interview, we're talking about this Teddy Roosevelt quote that said, you know, the credit goes to the man and it could be a man woman who's actually in the arena. So you were actually in the arena. And that's why people started to help contribute because you're in the game. You're in the fight. You are actually doing the activities, right? To put yourself in a place to where you can grow, build a business and organization and be able to pay it back because who wants to lend money to someone who doesn't have anything that that they're working on. It's going to be able to put money in their pockets to be able to even pay me back. I mean, that's really silly. So I had something that would, that would put me in a position to pay. You were funding growth and I was funding growth. Right. Yeah, that's a very good point. Thank you so much. Yeah, you were funding growth. All of these things to me are super important for small businesses to hear because a lot of times again, and we, and I talk about faith and belief a lot for me, we could only see like what's in front of us, right? So they don't step out on faith because they can't see where this, these resources are going to come from. And I'm sure you didn't see where they're coming from because you didn't know Deborah Scott. So you couldn't have saw it either, but you still stepped out on faith. You're absolutely right. And I even told that story about how Eleni Lindbergh being the late Lindbergh being he's deceased now, but when he gave me that almost 30k, he told me, did you talk to the man upstairs? And I said, I always talk to the man upstairs, but eventually I was able to get 80% of the money I needed. I needed another 20% and that's when he gave me that money. But yeah, so he did that for me, Deborah Scott Thomas. And there's been so many people that I can't even name that have been so instrumental in helping me get through even within the last five years, because I mentioned how after I graduated from the 8a program, that I was in a bad situation. I barely could keep the lights on. And so I had some colleagues that did conference management and they would invite me to all of these conferences and from those conferences is where I made so many new connections that got me to, you know, emergent leaders, it got me to the biz ladies. I mean, and these colleagues over years over time started to pay off, but it didn't happen immediately. But it was just that I was in the room. I was in the room, like you said, I was in the arena, which led to the conversation that led to other things. So I believe that your connections is more than money. It's more than, yeah, they pay off more dividends than cash. No, I believe it. I totally believe that. Small business. I'm starting out. I have four or five people, right? People always ask like, okay, who do you hire first? Who do you hire second? And how do you know those things? Well, so mind you, things have changed a lot from when I started back in 2002. So in reference to, I say, stay lean and mean. I say, stay lean and mean, not use up all of your money, your own asset. Yeah, I think that now with this e-commerce that you can get people to do things for you for a lot cheaper. So you don't have to have a heavy overhead. You don't have to have a big overhead. So I mean, if you have contracts, I mean, you got to have a strategic plan. And then you have to decide which proposals you're going to go after how much resources you need to build and to scale. So that's how I feel. I think things are a lot easier now. You can get a lot more for less. And with, I mean, the broken mortar, it was really expensive. You were, I mean, now we're in the pandemic, some people can work from home and use their own Wi-Fi so to speak and things of that nature. At your peak, I know you hired those 150 people. How many people did you have underneath you? Oh, now that's a good question. Yeah, at the peak. At the peak, I don't think I ever like went over 200. Okay. Okay. Yeah, I don't think I went over 200. I mean, 200 is a lot of people. Yeah, it is. 200 is a lot. I mean, that's a lot of people. Yeah, but you have people in place. Like, so by the time it got to me, it was, it was bad. So you, I mean, you don't want it to get to me. Even though I, and that's another thing that Deborah Scott-Thomas taught me. She knew everybody. She knew everybody that worked for her company. And she was well over 200. I mean, she was able to know who you are and what you're supposed to be doing. Whereas with myself, I didn't want to have to be hands-on, you know, at that level. I wanted to make sure that I want, in other words, I allow people to have a delegated, a delegated and have ownership of what you're doing. So once they do that, they really want to do a good job. And the other thing about small business is how many people in a Fortune 500 company have interactions with the CEO. It's very rare. In a small business, they can see you at the grocery store because you live in the same town. You know, you can be in the cleaners and it's all high and it's more. So I mean, with a small business, people know you, they interact with you more. And so you want to allow them to do their job and trust that they're going to do their job and in hope that they won't have to, to, you know, if something gets really bad and you got to get involved and you have to make those tough decisions. And it's not going to be pretty. It's usually not pretty. Wow. Wow. No, that's, that's, that's wonderful. You know, you said you recently did emerging leaders, but prior to that, what type of trainings did you do on your way, like building up your organization? I went to all of the SBA conferences and everything that was for, you know, minority owned businesses, woman owned businesses, 8A hub zone, I went to all of the conferences. And as far as anything local, like with the universities now, I did, I did some of that. And emerging leaders, it was right on time for me because I was able to meet other small business owners in the area that I wasn't aware of. And so we created a really good, I want to say camaraderie. Like we have a, well, if I call, they will pick up. If they call, I pick up. That's actually a really good point. Some of my guests are all part of organizations where you have a camaraderie of folks that are in different businesses, but I'll have, you know, sharing in on your experiences. And so I think that's really important. I think that's, that's really helpful for a lot of small businesses to know and to learn is to surround yourself with those type of individuals and those people at whatever level you may be at. I think that's, yeah. That makes me think back to Vistage, Vistage International. So I did Vistage in that consisted of a lot of other entrepreneurs from different industries. And it was, it's lonely at the top. So that helped a lot to get that training and we would have, you know, speakers come in and things of that nature. And it was a big help. It was a big help. We would have to check in. We met like, I want to say once a month, it could have been more, but we would have to check in how are we doing mentally, emotionally, physically, and then professionally. So, you know, things would come out in those conferences or those meetings that could be personal. It could be something related to, I got to buy my partner out. I mean, there was just so many things and we would all just rally around that person and work on their problem. You know, so, so yeah, that was something that helped me a lot. That's great. What other lessons to learn? I know there, there's a lot of lessons. One thing I say is to celebrate your wins, even if they're small, because I think for me, I'm always working and I had to work so hard because I had to do my own, I did my own incorporation. I did my own ADA. I did my own hub zone. I did my own everything, you know. So, I think I didn't take time to just pop a bottle of champagne or just take some time to celebrate your wins, even if they're small. They're big wins because they all add up. So, it's like, you got to take that step. And it's like a ladder. I saw this picture where there's this tall ladder and they're like, it's like really big space between it. So, you never think you can get to the top of the ladder. And there's a small, there's another ladder that's going up just as high and it's smaller steps in between. And so, you can take those steps. So, all those little steps and you end up higher than the person is trying to take that big leap, trying to get that one big step up. So, those small wins or whatever your, your, those steps you're taking, I think you should celebrate along the way, even if it's just, I mean, going out to dinner or, you know, going to a movie, treating yourself to a watch, whatever the case may be, I think you should celebrate your wins. I would agree with you. When hiring people, are there any type of techniques that you have for hiring, knowing how to hire the right people? Is there something that is format that you follow when you, when you're hiring, when you're hiring people? Well, most of my staff, I mean, it's based on their credentials. So, and malpractice, if you have any malpractice cases, I can't hire you, or, you know, the government isn't willing to hire you for those malpractice, if there's a certain amount and so on and so forth. So, a lot of mine has to do with credentials, but I do believe in emotional IQ. I think that the emotional IQ or emotional intelligence is a big factor. Like, some people can do really well in their profession, but they don't have the emotional IQ to deal with ups and downs or to be able to pivot or to handle changes and things of that nature. So, I think looking for those things, and especially with a lot of stress, if they, if they're, you know, having a hard time dealing with stress, those things. And then I believe that we should counter it. We should make it a workplace that counters it, that's, that's family friendly, that allows for exercise, allows for creativity, as long as you're getting your work done, those things. And sometimes we don't have a lot of that leverage with the federal government, but they are working on that. They are allowing for compressed work weeks or allowing you to work different shifts and things of that nature. So, but I think that fosters a good, healthy staff. Okay. The person that betrayed you and your organization. Do you think there's something that you could have done differently to maybe see that? Yes, I do. Okay, tell us. I think that they weren't qualified for the position. I think that because of the relationship that I gave them an opportunity that they weren't really qualified for. And that goes back to the interviewing and things of that nature, because we can't allow our personal relationships and feelings to get in the way of business and give people opportunities just because they know us. Interesting. And how long had you known that person? Your childhood friend, right? Yes, yes, yes, yes. So we were like, I mean, we grew up in the same neighborhood together, middle school, you know, yeah, high school, all of that. Wow. And people change. And I mean, you know, people change and... Oh, that's true. They say that as you start to grow in business, you're going to leave some friends behind. Of course. And we hadn't seen each other for like 20 years. But at the time they worked for an 8A. And so at the time, you know, they were right in the sweet spot. I was 8A and they knew what was going on. So it seemed like a good fit. But I didn't do all of the... I didn't let HR hire the person. I didn't let it go through the... Oh, yeah. Skip steps. I skip steps. And then I pay for it, right? Okay. That makes a lot of sense. It makes a lot of sense. Oh, that's interesting. So the thing that you would do differently is what? I would have slowed down. I would have slowed down. And I would have taken... I wouldn't have missed those steps. Okay. Because yeah, I mean, and that's another thing. You can have good friends, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're good for business. So everybody, you have different relationships. Amen. Right. So you can't mix. I think one of my mentors mentioned that. Like, don't mix crowds. Don't mix... Yes, don't mix crowds. Okay. So I think that's where I made that mistake. Okay. All right. But don't be dogmatic. Don't get to the point that it is someone that is ethical, that has the expertise that, you know, has the background. And you're like, no, I don't want to make this mistake and ruin a friendship if I allow you to work for me or if we do business together. We don't want to become like that. But I think that I did miss some steps in my situation and it came back to bite me. Did you have any other mentors? I know you mentioned Deborah Scott. I know you mentioned Ellany. Did you have any other groups or organizations? It doesn't have to be an actual person, per se. Anyone, anything else that you can think of that comes to mind? Wow. Like I said, the colleague that I had did the event planning. I think he was more instrumental than she realized in helping me to network because she was just reaching back and doing her job. And it was at a time, Eric, when I was like at my lowest, I was so low. And so... Those people are so great. What's that? I said, those kind of people are wonderful. I love them. And I just don't know if she knew. I don't know if she knew that I was at my lowest. I think she was just reaching back. She was just doing what she does. And it has been invaluable. I cannot... That's a whole episode on just all of the contacts that I made that turned into something that got me to this place, that got me to another door. So it was people like that in your life. I mean, I know I'm missing so many other people that have mentored me and helped me through it all. But recently, I guess that's just so fresh in my mind. Because it even, to me, it got me to this point of even meeting you. So I think she was instrumental in that. And that we're so instrumental in other people's lives that we don't realize it. Like the other thing is when I was with the ladies, G.I., Colonel Gardner Ince, she took the 29 women and she mentored us. I mean, she disciplined us. She gave us tough love. But she really wanted the best. If we call her now, she will get on the horn and make something happen. That's just... She's mission driven. And I mean, I can't say enough about her. Well, no, that's that's good stuff. As small businesses, we all went into issues with credit, capital, right? You addressed some of those ways that you were able to overcome it. Any other resources that you tapped into that that maybe we're forgetting about in terms of like, because you know, I don't remember ever hearing how you actually financed the $150k per week. I remember you were telling us that part. I know you told me that the person did not do their part. How are we able to cover that shortfall? I was robbing Peter to pay Paul, so I had all the contracts in place that I was getting paid on. And I was taking it. And the other thing, this is a really key point, is the government allowed me to get paid weekly. And so based on when my payroll was, they worked two weeks in a whole. So I allowed them to work two weeks in a whole. I was able to build the government weekly because they did not want me to fail. They did not want me to fail. And as a small business, they put that clause in there that I could build weekly. And so that allowed me to float that payroll, as well as it allowed me to pay my other contractors that I had in place. But yeah, I was pretty much robbing Peter to pay Paul. No, that's actually, I'm glad that we brought that question up because sometimes we hear the stories of the government pays slow. Oh, oh yeah. And really what I think I found is more of when you're a subcontractor working for the prime, the prime pays slow. Yes, but the government pays quickly. Right. As long as you submit your invoice correctly. The other thing is that I gave the employees an incentive. I had my bank come down and allow them to get, to open a bank account with the bank and they would give them direct deposit. So they would get their money faster if they chose to open up an account with our bank. So that allowed us to pay them like so. So say, you know, our payroll was on the 10th and the 25th of the month. So we told them, look, if you open up a bank account, we're going to pay for the 10th and the 25th on the 15th or something. I don't remember all the details, but somehow we were able to pay them faster if they opened up a bank account with our bank. And so our bank went down and met with our people and so on and so forth. So I mean, you just have to get people involved and let them know what's going on. We went out for a little minute. It was like something happened on my end. You said, so if they came down, they signed up with the bank, they would get paid. I missed that statement. They would get direct deposit into their account early. So earlier than the other people on payroll. So we gave them an incentive to go with our bank. So that meant our bank was opening up all of those new bank accounts. And so they got incentive to get paid earlier because it allowed us to float that payroll because they were working two weeks in a whole plus to give them their money. So I mean, it was a lot of finesse. I mean, we wish finesse in it. Yeah, but I think that again, that's the entrepreneur in you. That's the do or die. That's like, you know, look, if there's a will, there's a way. You know, I mean, you have, you're willing to do it. You got the contract in place. So now you have to just make it happen. Right now. And I think that that's again, that's the difference between those that succeed and those that fail. You said, hey, it's do or die. It's do or die. Yeah, I said, I'm gonna, I'm gonna die trying, you know, like, look, you're not gonna say that I didn't try. Right. Right. No, that's great. That's great. I love it. Any, anything else that you want to share with the people before we sign off? Oh, goodness, Eric. I would just like to say, don't be afraid. Don't be afraid. You can do it. And there are a lot of people out there that are willing to help you. And when, and I would agree with that. And when people reach out to you via LinkedIn, is that a great place for them to reach you? Is it LinkedIn? Yeah, it's definitely. What kind of questions would you like people to ask about or talk about? Because I'm sure you don't want to talk about every type of subject matter. Is there anything specific request that you have, anything you want to talk about? Cyber security or, I don't know, training? I mean, health care is our bread and butter. So you want to talk about health care, just with what's going on right now, we're able to turn around the COVID testing in 24 hours, which is pretty fast. That's faster than a lot of the labs that are doing COVID tests. So, I mean, if you want to talk about some health related things or have some colleagues that are interested in some health care positions, also anything government contracting, I don't mind. If I know what I will help, if there's something that you need a teammate on, I will help. I mean, I'm not always available, but I'm willing to give back as much as I possibly can. No, no, thank you. Thank you. And again, tell us your website. It's www.amora.com, A-M-O-O-R-E-R.com. And how do I spell your name? Roberta Moore, R-O-B-E-R-T-A Moore, M-O-O-R-E. Okay. And so we'll, and we'll have all that information in the show notes as well. Hey, Roberta, listen, this was a great second interview. Thank you for coming back on again. Thanks so much for having me, Eric. No, no, no. Always a pleasure. Like was.