 Hi, welcome once again to this series on Newsflick, the series that we are running on the master plan Delhi, that's MPD 2041, 2021 gets exhausted and then 20 years down the line, how Delhi is to be shaped, I mean shape doesn't just mean land use plan but also how ability is to be picked, what would be the environmental prospects of Delhi 20 years down the line and of course we talk about master plan which has to be quite inherently linked to the people so how are we going to pick them, well we've done a series and since this is a third episode we've already spoken about the trajectory and the journey right from 1961 to 2041 and today we have Jasmine Singh, welcome Jasmine to this series and so with Jasmine we have to speak about mobility environment, I mean what does the master plan speaks about these two aspects and just to give you a reference Jasmine is an architect planner working in Hyderabad but also who comes from Delhi, who's been brought up in Delhi and has an experience of more than 15 years in this land field. So someone who understands the nuances of urban planning which also people do not and why it is important for the people to get engaged this is what we are going to ask Jasmine, Jasmine I mean what is your take on the Yeah, hi so as you've introduced me I have a long association with Delhi you know it's been bearing the last three years all my life has been mostly in Delhi and my even my families when they came to India from at the time of the partitions so they all settled and we've seen how Delhi has developed you know from the new Delhi to the In the previous episode actually we heard those stories from Dunhu about you know the partitions I don't know what's going on in the story, my grandparents also were allotted a plot in these refugee colonies and how Delhi has developed from that just Delhi was nothing before that and what we see today it has about 1.4% of India's population which is huge you know it is a big magnet especially when you look at North India it has been the biggest magnet to attract people and when you look at the population growth like the past two decades it had slowed down you know it has come to around 20-21% but earlier it was growing pretty fast and the previous master plans it talked about that the population growth migration is contributing 50% equally as well as the natural growth so migration has always been a very important part in Delhi you know everybody was the place for a land of opportunities you know it has been like that and when you look at the current master plan you see a shift you know the master plan document itself now when you start reading the document it says that this is us it's a framework you know so they have themselves they are they are shifting you know what the plan you say shift what does that mean I'm shift from what to what because when people look at the 2001-2021 plans they talk a lot of the spatial needs the requirements what the population needs what are the what will be required in the next 20 years but now in the 2041 we see that it says it's a spatial framework it talks more on that but then the framework lacks how the framework will be implemented and what will be the timelines yeah so just when I mean when you and you say spatial framework what does it mean spatial framework for our viewers who actually it talks that it is a framework it's a guiding document because you have multiple agencies in Delhi and now what you see dda dda at one point was also taking up development works dda is not doing that anymore you have different agencies you have three municipal bodies you have a cantonment board you have an dmc so it is a it is more of a guiding document of what these agencies would be doing basically but what what's the stark difference I see that when the the previous master plan it talked the the 2021 it talked about figures what is the urbanizable area in Delhi how much is under all that all that had actually been removed from the master plan so the previous master plan spoke that in 2000 about 47 percent of Delhi was already urbanized and there was a scope you know another 18 percent to reach around 66 percent but all of that is totally missing you know and even when you look at the population projections what is being projected is about 22.9 crores for 2041 and even the previous master plan 2001 they had proposed like 2.35 crore but they actually fell short so the the population growth is actually coming down you know so we don't know whether we will actually reach 2.9 and 2.9 is a huge figure you know I I think you will have maybe one or two cities in the world which would actually reach that scale in the coming few years so that is how and why you need a master plan is to basically account for the growing needs and what the document actually talks about is giving a quality of life to the people safeguarding the environment conserving the heritage that has been consistent that every master plan has talked about so that is nothing very different but the good but what I see they have spent a lot of time this year NIUA last three four years they've got experts they've prepared these baseline studies and the baseline studies even though it was after a lot of insistence they actually released to the public and that is I think the barn of the reasons that they have extended the timeline because every study itself is a 100 page document so baseline studies capture a lot of things but I don't see everything of the baseline captured in the master plan master plan is more generic I mean that's really interesting what you're saying that there is a baseline study but the baseline study doesn't reflect in the master plan so can you cite a few examples I mean when we talk of let's take the case of environment you know it talks of things like that there has been an increase in the green cover but what is the final target they say that we want to reach 30% and currently we're at 20 but what does that 20 mean it is not very clear if they are even including the avenue plantation that is not green spaces you know so there is a conflict in that then the other thing is that in the baseline study they say that most of the a forestation which is happening in Delhi has been happening in the ozone okay so anywhere they're cutting trees and they are saying okay compensatory you will go and plant in ozone but then the people residing in other zones they are deprived of the green spaces or the benefits of trees and the biodiversity the ecology so that is there in the baseline but it is not reflected in the master plan and the master plan says that you know when you you have different zones in Delhi and there is a huge variation in the per capita green space like New Delhi it goes beyond 250 square meter a person and in certain zones it's hardly not even three square meter which is well below the 10 square meter what we call as a global standard so there is a huge variation but then what is proposed to bridge that gap you know areas which have such a low green cover how will you increase the green cover there the previous master plans did talk of space allocation allocating land for you know parks or even infrastructure but this plan doesn't talk about that how in a particular zone those things will be augmented maybe they are leaving it to the zonal plan or the local plan but that has been a problem with the previous master plans also my point is I mean that's very interesting that you pointed out I mean you know we've also seen some of the redevelopment projects taking place for example the aims I mean close to aims and then our TOD is coming up so do you not think I mean this is I mean this will further reduce the green cover I mean where you require more green spaces in the green cover I think quite contentious how they are calculating because the 21 master plan had a different figure now they are giving a different figure here what all they are in it is not in sync and we already know but the phase for metro coming up lot of even in the southern ridge are certain areas are going to go away so all those things have not been taken cognizance you know what are the further infrastructure development and how it will affect the green cover nothing of that sort has been done and another thing like the master plan is shifting to a KPI based evaluation you know they have made different parameters and these parameters will be analyzed performance indicators you're talking about but then when you look at environment the only parameter they talk is okay increase in green cover or assessing the number of good air days but they're totally ignoring the biodiversity the master plan the baseline says that the Yamuna has hardly any biodiversity left no aquatic like the aquatic life is hardly there so how those things are not at all you know taken into the master plan it is good that they have taken cognizance of the green blue infrastructure and you know that they want to connect the green blue infrastructure making it a more livable city but those things they haven't the biodiversity is one thing which has totally been ignored because trees or green spaces are not just they don't perform one function it is a whole ecosystem which really needs to look at it then another thing coming to is the air pollution you know like Delhi we know the most polluted capital one of the most polluted cities in the world yeah the capitals we've been getting the tag last two three years and it's like nothing to be happy about but on climate change pollution it is very generic you know the master plan says that okay 25% is due to domestic pollution 25% it is a huge so what it indicates that maybe cooking gas or fuels or unclean fuels because domestic pollution would be from these sources so how the master plan and it points to the slums or the informal settlements where we know that these things would be used so how these things would be taken up we are not it is totally silent on that pollution is just okay we will monitor the number of good air days but it doesn't help in any ways because we are eating a lot of smoke towers it also speaks for smoke towers you know and smoke tower is a very it's not a proven technology China did it in some cities now in India making it as a you cannot replace the natural lungs with a smoke tower or even using terms like Miyawaki plantation Miyawaki okay we can do it in a resort in a group housing I cannot do it on acres and acres it's an expensive technology so I think the some of the solutions which are being suggested would create further problems which is okay so I think that's interesting framework to solutions that are being offered now you know there is also a strong connect between pollution and mobility the way the way we are actually inducing our people to buy more cars by widening our flyovers occupying the space of the pedestrians and whatnot and then we've also seen the TOD coming up what what is I mean I mean I mean the transit oriented development which which is like a catch word for for the 2021 master plan so now how do you look at it and is it also just the jargon that they talk about or I mean something real is going to happen the TOD is nothing new you know couple of years back 2012 DDA came out with the TOD policy and they said okay there'll be five six stations which will be taken up but it hasn't taken up at the level what they had but just do you not think I mean TOD still caters to certain section of the middle classes Delhi is not just the middle class or the upper middle class you know Delhi is now what what you see globally when you look at you know Canada or certain cities in America where they have gone for TOD the focus of TOD has been to have affordable housing in the TOD radius so that the people staying there they can easily walk to work they can take the metro or whatever the transport is offered but here they talk off you know 600 square feet 60 square meter so in most countries where TOD has worked it has been making smaller unit size more affordable having policies so that the people staying within the five to 10 minutes of that station or the node they are able to access the facilities you know for a person who can afford a car they can or cars you know multiple cars they can as well stay in Mairoli or Chhattarpura somewhere they don't need to stay in that TOD zone so TOD will work only if you have only if it is focused more on the affordable segment but that that has been even in Gurgaon the TOD policy they haven't focused on that how to make housing affordable near these nodes and naturally a person who has the kind of money they wouldn't like to stay in the those it will be hustling muscling it won't be a very dead phone so that talent has to be achieved so I think that and TOD has been there last 10 years they haven't achieved much of it they've again put it in the master plan and now they say that a developer or some private party can propose this TOD scheme if you have a area certain I think one one hectare or two hectare more you can do a TOD scheme propose to us and you will get extra extra FR and certain percentage of public space in the scheme it has to be a public plaza given back to the city now how that will work who will maintain that the what activities will be allowed in the public plaza you know Delhi is a city of hawkers street vendors so to make these public plazas vibrant what will be allowed you know will the private party control even the activities happening there they can allow access to people it's okay but we want the inclusive access Delhi is a city where you have weekly markets vendors how do you take them on board and today most of the metro stations that you look in Delhi you know once you get down the metro it is a chaotic zone it's not planned you know you have autos cycles you have these e rickshaws buses it is quite you know that entire zone so I think more local area planning needs to be done at that level I think that's very interesting that you pointed out because this is what Romi and I we've been discussing since long local area planning and passing on this the buck of planning to local bodies panchayats at the at the grand panchayat level and also you're on the local bodies yeah at the ward level precisely at the ward level so but then the last question that I want to ask jasmine is about how do you look at the mobility sector in this entire when you look at the mobility the the baseline you know because your buses have come down I mean the baseline is very clear the buses have come down we are hardly left with 6 000 buses and actually it should be 11 to 12 000 buses you know the past few years we've been hearing so many EVs will be added and one latest study saying that most of these 6 000 are even aging you know so few years down the line most of them will be redundant and what had happened in Delhi was like 15 years back they experimented with the BRT so I wouldn't say that the BRT failed it was the implementation and the public awareness on that chirag deli stretch what they tried to do the BRT but in the long run what we see bus based will be the mode of transport because when you studies have been done you know when you compare a metro ride for people earning more than 25 30 thousand salary when they travel by metro and they take another last mile first mile after a metro again to reach your workplace you'll take another mode okay so that turns out pretty costly for them and that is why people have been switching more to two wheelers and two wheelers have increased a lot so how do even and two wheelers are causing a lot of pollution as per the IIT deli study the only solution is to have more bus based transport which will be within five minutes of your house today even to access the metro station you need to take another shower or some other just if you go by another baseline study that was done again by IIT I think 48% of the commuters commute in a radius of less than you know who are non-motorized to be to say yeah so they are either pedestrians or they are cyclists I mean how does a 241 plan address that you know that's a big chunk almost 50% of the population who are not dependent on the government so you know they require more open spaces for walking maybe with tree cover so that in the summers they can walk and of course the cycle paths I mean so how do you look at it they specify that you know in these new schemes be it TOD be it land pooling be these green development zones so cycling and pedestrian footpaths the street design guidelines will be mandatory but my question is why only in these new developments you know why not do it everywhere in the city and they talk of all roads above 12 meters should follow the street design guidelines so these UTPEC street design guidelines have been there they've been there last 10-15 years you know but it the agencies themselves responsible because you know some roads are under PWD some are under CPWD they're multiple agencies so I think capability of these agencies also is required to be upgraded so they implement these street design guidelines that is one good aspect that they have stressed on the street design guidelines and one of the KPIs that they have mentioned is you know they will measure how many streets above 18 meter are designed as per these guidelines so these guidelines can work provided they take the hawkers the vendors the people whose livelihood is dependent on the streets you know you need to integrate those people and as we are looking at Delhi today because most industries polluting industries have shifted out or they are not allowed so Delhi is becoming I think more of a trading shopping it has changed and even offices if you look at the offices either they have shifted within NCR only the corporate offices are there so Delhi is more of a trading and a trading city I would say and less of a industrial city today I think yeah that's apparently true because that's what the rule was also pointing out you know how they had designed some 17 industrial zones only five could materialize 12 could not even in the initial days forget about I mean now when the industries were shifted so your last word I mean I mean I mean because you know it still doesn't grip the not the sense of the people you know people are not even aware and probably the DD doesn't even want the people to be aware I mean unlike what we have witnessed in the earlier master plans where there used to be a Munadi kind of thing I mean they were proclamation that thing doesn't happen I mean it's all IT and everyone is not IT you know yeah because you know the previous master plan and last master plan you know that there was a lot of uproar regarding the mix use and shopkeepers and you know the traders were up against they got some 7000 objections and they held various workshops talking to people calling people now because of the pandemic they are saying we can't do that they've just done four webinars and one webinar has 200 people so you know how to contact with the NGOs the slum dwellers the informal segment the traders of Delhi who've suffered huge losses in the last two years in the pandemic how they can revive their businesses I feel they need to have more workshops more like now if things if we are we are not hit by the third wave you know that should then they can have workshops go at the ground level you can't just have a you know a webinar with 200 people and say okay so I feel more and till date as we're talking they've only received 1500 you know online suggestions so it shows and and why it should only be written it can even be verbal it can be audio you can go and make videos with people talk to them you know everybody doesn't have the skill of reading 500 pages and making comments you know people and people don't have even the time so I think there are other ways of documenting having workshop role play where people give their reactions on things even involving women and gender children okay but one issue you know they need to take the woman safety has been and when they're talking about this night life in Delhi to make it a night city so safety will be one important concern okay so finally and what you've spoken about is the major state actor that's a DDA what if the state actor doesn't respond what should be the alternate you know with various groups civil society organizations political leadership in the town what should be the course that one should adopt I mean if the voices are to be heard because I mean it's a serious challenge definitely during the pandemic people also do not respond that vibrantly because people have different priorities at the moment so is there anything that you want to suggest on that aspect I see even if you look at they have total 18 planning zones they have a number of words even if they do an in every planning zone they do on-ground consultations calling the local councillor the case of Delhi is like DDA is not a elected body you know so what the councillors feel what is the feedback from the councillors I don't think that has been incorporated and then you have Delhi government which is another parallel you know so there are multiple actors in Delhi and finally the master plan they say it's a guiding document implementation has to either be by these municipal corporations or the Delhi government so that thing who will do what and what will be the timelines remains a challenge but but the master plan happens to be a statutory document no I mean because you know the Delhi government is part of it municipal corporation there is part of it they are part of the board but I don't know how much of their suggestions have been taken on board that is what I think it needs to be even what level representatives what committee is you know to take their suggestions on board should be done and master plan we know there we have been doing so 61 so how much every master plan has achieved that also we've seen there have been huge gaps so it's not at least in the in the previous master plans when you did not achieve 20 years down the line you said okay this is what what was left out I don't think that kind of understanding is totally silent it doesn't talk of what was proposed in 2021 what they could they have added some fancy new term and the one one thing that they've added is vertical mixing last master plan was more about mixed use you know like Lajpat Nagar and around 2500 streets this one you said is more about vertical mixing yeah because in these cod and these zones they want to allow vertical and giving a very high fsi of five you know I am not more for the real estate builders I mean who may get some opportunity to I mean if you look at it if you look at all the players even the developer or a real estate person is a player you know they are also one of the parties because they are also contributing to the city so their interests need to be seen and now DDA earlier they were making their own housing you know they had you had different DTA colonies now they have it is they have left into that the private sector will invest in that idea completely yes now think Vavasantunj maybe after 2005 or 10 no major DTA houses or apartment nothing of that has come up so private players will play an important role and we are seeing a lot of and as they talk of regeneration a lot of aircasts which were built you know 50-60 years old they are getting old they will need upgradation even regeneration private players are going to play an important role but the challenge will be that whether the infrastructure would be available for a five or a four fsi you know so we are not talking on the infra part but if that will have to be seen absolutely thank you Jasmin for making those very interesting observations and you know many of the players have also pointed out that one month down the line is two less for the people to commit at least three more months should be given to the people that you should have active workshops like you know in Hong Kong they did some 250 consultations you look at because now Delhi is the size of a small state in India actually yeah and they have a budget for more than state I mean some of the states in India definitely so thank you Jasmin for being with us and making those very interesting observations and I wish that you know I mean the aspects that you pointed out are taken care of and you know the alternative also I mean that I'm the whole purpose of running the series is to really energize to really make people aware that look hey this is your your Delhi and reclaim this right of planning unfortunately this rise doesn't accrue through the DDA in fact which should have accrued through the DDA planning process so this is also to actually hit out the process the entire process is faulty the way they plan and as Dhulu pointed out I mean we shouldn't leave planning only to the Ustadhs I mean that's the consultants so because of this people you know yeah thank you so much