 Good evening, and welcome to episode 378 of the Private Property Podcast. I'm your host, Rizam Antouma. It's the Friday edition of the Private Property Podcast. If you're joining us for the first time, welcome to the show. You're certainly tuned in to the best Daily Property Podcast and the early Daily Property show in South Africa, helping you navigate your property journey. And to all our regular viewers at home, whether you're watching us on Facebook, on Instagram, or on YouTube, welcome to it. You know how to do every single weekday when I have an appointment at 7pm, when I'm always in conversation with the property expert who helps us make better property decisions. Doesn't matter where in your property journey you are, we're certainly here to make it better. Make sure that you get all the facts, all the knowledge that you need to help you make those decisions. It's a Friday, and one of the great things about this Friday is what you can look forward to, of course, is later on in the show, we'll be announcing the lucky winner that's has a chance of walking away with a thousand rounds in cash. We are running that competition on our Facebook page where you send a chance of walking away with 500 rounds in cash every single weekday live right here on the show. And all you have to do to start a chance of walking away with that cash is to firstly make sure you go to our Facebook page and comment on our pinned post. And if you call your name out during the show, you have to drop us a message in order to claim your prize. Yesterday's winner unfortunately did not drop us a message. So we've got a thousand rounds in the money bag. And I'm looking forward to see who the lucky winner is this evening. And I hope that they're watching and can start the weekend with a thousand rounds in their pocket. And other things you can look forward to every single weekday at 8 p.m. Great shows right here on private property. It's a Friday. You can look forward to that child to bring you the home shopper's show. And that also is on your screens every Monday at the same time on Tuesdays and Thursdays. Mbalino God brings you the farming podcast tackling all things agriculture and something that you can obviously look forward to. And on a Wednesdays, Isti Klaasen brings the first time home buyer show. She's always in conversation with people who've not only walked that first time home buying journey, but have gone on to grow their property portfolios from strength to strength. Well, those are the great shows you can look forward to every single weekday at 8 p.m. right here on private property social media platforms. And of course, as myself, as I'm not doing all command, every weekday at 7 p.m. on your screens, always talking to a property expert and of course helping you make better property decisions at home. And we're doing exactly that this evening. And as we're going to be looking at inclusive design in the build environment. If you don't know what inclusive design is, we're going to start exactly there. What is it? What do we mean by it? And how, you know, how is it an important part of designing and certainly doing work within the built environment? Why is it so important? And this evening to help us get a good sense of inclusive design in the built environment, I'm joined by Kim Furben, who is an architect. Kim, good evening. And thank you so much for joining us on the show. Hello, Zama. Thanks for welcoming me. It's a pleasure. Thank you. It's such a pleasure to have you on the show, especially if you're joining us for the first time. I know you and I are going to have such a great conversation. Now, Kim, I think the first starting point is what is inclusive design? When we talk inclusive design, what exactly do we mean? Well, in my understanding of inclusive design is really falls into two categories. The first category being the buildings themselves. And then the second category, which is much larger, has to do with large master plans, cities and so on. And in the first category, in buildings themselves, inclusive design, which is actually also known as universal design principles, providing universality to access to the functions of a building and the usages of buildings. And fundamentally, for both of those categories, whether it be at an ergonomic scale, or whether it be at a large scale, really, the principle behind it has to do with compassion and empathy towards users, whether there are sentient beings or not. So how do users experience the space? How do users navigate those spaces? And what facilities do those users need to gain universal access? And, you know, Kim, when we then look at sort of inclusive design within the built environment, and given, you know, the explanation that you've given us in terms of what it is, sort of putting the user first and really trying to get a good sense of how the user is going to be experiencing this, perhaps put a picture for us what it looks like, right? So when, whether it's architects, or different professionals within the built environment, say that they're making decisions or certainly building whatever the building is, or if it's a, you know, mega project with inclusive design at the core of it, what does that effectively look like? I think for those at home who still don't quite get a picture of them, will say design that is inclusive and that design that's effectively wouldn't be inclusive. Okay, so I could give you a number of examples, but I'm working on a project for a client at the moment. And the client is fragile, physically fragile. And what they, for example, they cannot get into a bath. So what I'm doing is I'm designing a bath in a, in a, in a form which is like a helix. And so that the person in, in the can get into obviously is in his wheelchair and go down a ramp in a helix, fill the bath up, be bathed and or wash himself. And there's a shower overhead. And it captures all the water. So fundamentally, it's providing facilities which, which create equal opportunity, equitable opportunity to function in a way that us as able-bodied people take for granted. And really, that's that example, I think is the nub of what inclusive design is about. And I like that example, Kim, because I think it speaks to how oftentimes, and we certainly, I mean, I've seen this before, where certain projects, especially when, I suppose, let's say cities in the city or in the big metros, and you'll find that, let's say they unveiled a park, for instance, or a space where significant number of people are going to use it. And sometimes it gets criticized that it's not particularly inclusive that different kinds of people are able to access it. And sometimes it could be something as, I almost want to say, as basic as making sure that you have a ramp, even in public spaces, whether it's a park, for instance, and that becomes core to how you design, as opposed to it being an afterthought, and something that you have to get reminded that it needs to get included. I see the love that you're getting on our Facebook page. And we've got Mary Gold in your garden is sending many, many green hearts good evening. They're Mary Gold. I hope you're enjoying the show. So the Semenya also tuned in and watching and sending all that love. And we absolutely love it. Do keep it coming. And Kim, I think I want to then, and we've already started touching on this, the importance of inclusive design, when we look at it holistically, whether you're looking at, you know, working on somebody's residential project, or we're looking at commercial or even industrial projects. Why is it so important that fundamentally to be design is inclusive in nature in the both environment? Non inclusive design is is a symptomatic of prejudice. And and it's fundamental to acknowledge that. You know, we're all human. And I can't stress this enough is that what really produces exclusivity in design is really based on prejudice. So once one becomes compassionate and empathetic towards certain certain lifestyles that people lead, whether they be cultural, whether they be physically different, they are people, whether they are, and I hesitate to use the word, but I'm going to use it because I don't know a better one, challenged in some way, really is problematic in exclusivity, because we fail to recognise that we are one as an entire global population. And and this also brings to mind the much larger scale inclusivity and design than I mentioned the first two categories, they could actually fall into one. The the other one that I want to stress is is really about sustainability is really about what obligations do we have towards this planet that we are given to live on. And I think once that perspective is taken into account, and once that perspective is really appreciated, one can approach a design of any description with sensitivity and and and a total sense of inclusivity. And I am this evening in conversation with Kim Thurburns, an architect, we're looking at inclusive design in the built environment, know what it is, why it's important. And and of course, the value that, you know, design that is fundamentally inclusive, certainly brings not only to you know, people who get to use whatever it is that's been built, but certainly also for for businesses. And I think Kim that actually brings me to my next value around how inclusive design expands business value. I mean, I'm now even looking at your your more corporate, for instance, buildings that I and I've come across certain corporate buildings where a part of me wonders how, for instance, a differently abled body navigates from whether it's the parking lot to reception. And I think I always shudder to think how their employees who maybe differently abled are able to actually use that particular space. So your question is really relevant. How does it add value? And certainly on the on the corporate side for property developers and investors and so on, they they've really taken this to heart in this country in very many instances. And the programs run by the Green Building Council of South Africa, you know, you can get your ratings, they can do all that sort of thing. And they are noticing a very strong, strong appreciation of the asset values as a consequence of being inclusive in their design. About a decade ago, the building codes were changed. And those started to really incorporate some of the principles which are contained in the constitution of this country, which is is extremely inclusive. It took quite a while for for those regulations to catch up with the the magnitude of the constitution that that this country has. So I think from a value perspective, certainly assets, which have inclusive design principles in them and adopt the broad range of them are definitely they definitely do have more longevity, definitely have more longevity and the asset value is greater. We're about to go to go for a quick break rather this evening on the private part of our course with myself is our mentor, my law as we and after the break, we're going to continue this conversation on inclusive design in the built environment. We're going to find out who the lucky winner of the 1000 rands that is currently in the money bag. Remember, if we you see your name on the screen, correct your name, you need to drop us a text before the end of the show. That's the only way that you're going to claim the price. Let's have a look at who the potential lucky winner this evening is. And the lucky winner this evening is Kane Leila Razzilani. Kane Leila Razzilani is the lucky winner of the 1000 rands that is in the money bag. And of course, you can have to drop us a message in order to claim that 1000 rands. I hope that you are watching and you'll drop us a message to claim that price. And as we continue our conversation on the private property podcast of myself is I'm a don't walk my love looking at inclusive design in the built environment and joined by Ken Ferbens and architect for the break, you know, what inclusive design is and what fundamentally underpins it. And of course, why it's important and the business value when it comes to inclusive design. Now, Kim, I think one of the other terms that gets used is is accessible design. So when we when we then look at accessible design, what is the difference of any between accessible design and inclusive design? So accessibility is is really ergonomics. ergonomics relates to the human form relates to the size, reach, gate, and and all of those sorts of things and abilities to navigate those. So from an ergonomic point of view, I've often seen, for example, in often in office buildings, that there's not is not a basin on the vanity, which is accessible to people of different heights, especially children, even if children go into the office space, they struggle to wash their hands. And that's really difficult to navigate. So from an ergonomic point of view, one has to consider the range of of human accessibility potential and who needs what and where they need it. I guess, from a cultural point of view, there are also other things, you know, to provide facilities, I've often had to provide prayer rooms, for example, in buildings, or spaces where where people can go and just be quiet in in Zen kind of spaces. So I think, I think ergonomic ergonomic design affects quite strongly on to a sorts of cultural and other mental health issues that people need to to exercise to make sure that they say stay sane in this crazy world of ours. And you're okay, as we're saying that I was thinking of how in one of the trends in office spaces, of course, even having sleep pods, so that if people wanted a bit of quiet time and able to even take, you know, quick nap, that's sometimes incorporated in certain offices. And I think the big thing is, we went through an era of having, for instance, a lot of open spaces in in a lot of the offices. And one of the things that we found was that the people who unfortunately weren't weren't able to work as effectively in those spaces. And so trying to create little pockets of spaces where they can at least sort of go to and be able to work, as opposed to only having the option of the open space, which is such an important thing that we sometimes take for granted. And I, I used to complain a lot, I am not a fan of open space offices, you know, the distraction level, hearing everybody sort of chatter, it prevented me from being able to adequately do work. So having an office space that had different spaces that you could go may not be sort of your permanent desk, but you were able to kind of go into a little part where you could work solo for a little bit, and not have, you know, the voices of the office gossip in between was always so useful. And in the matter of the vanity, as you were saying that I was actually thinking about how in malls, we often see a lot of this where you know, moms would usually, you know, come into the restroom with their kids. And when it's time for them to wash their hands, they usually can't reach out, they sometimes have to pick them up. And they've been a few malls where I've seen these, you know, their bases are at lower. And I'd say four kids, and perhaps even sometimes were differently, you know, abled people, perhaps even wheelchair users. But it makes such a huge difference when, you know, little humans are also able to adequately access those spaces as much as possible. Taking your questions and comments at home this evening, as we look at inclusive design in the built environment, and my fishing arm on Facebook saying we talk about inclusivity in many aspects of life. Why not in construction? This is good. And that's a big one, right? Because when we, I think a lot of people at home when you think construction, you may not think that inclusivity is something that kind of has to go into the thinking process, the decision making as much as possible. And Kim, I'm keen to hear then from you, when an architect is dealing with your client, and you kind of want to incorporate or certainly keep to the inclusive design, what are some of the conversations do you have with your clients when you even set up recommendations? And I think particularly for corporate clients, because I think it may be slightly easier for residential clients because you better understand their needs and what they need in their home. But when you're now looking at corporate clients and perhaps the brief that they had didn't have, we'll say, any inclusive design touch forwards. How do you then go about raising it, conscientising it then to that and adding that? Sorry, Zama, I think I've lost you a bit there. I'm not sure if I can respond. Is it opportune to respond? I've got a strong signal. Anyway, I'm in it, I'm in a chat anyway. And we are going to charge that one in the tech grimdance, having minor tech issues in the background, but we are back here on the private property podcast with myself as I might do more tomorrow, having a conversation about inclusive design in the built environment with architect Kim Furbin. Kim, before the break, I was asking about how you go about working with particularly corporate clients and making sure that inclusive design stays at the core of what is going to be the end product, whether it's a building or whatever it is that you'd be working with them on. So, Zama, the corporates are very well-conscientised towards inclusive design. So there's never an issue approaching that. The issue of approaching these things is dealt with in a very, I would say gentle but matter of fact way, that these are the issues that need to be looked at. And generally what happens is that a little committee is formed and we look at the various ESG requirements that the company might have or the corporate might have and we run through them. But what's, you know, we were talking about the constitution earlier and everyone certainly that I speak to and deal with is aware of how broad our constitution is. So as a population we generally very well-conscientised towards inclusivity. The idea which I like a lot is now getting towards more radical inclusivity. So, for example, I like talking to corporates about issues that may occur on site. And, you know, how is it that we are going to accommodate those people who work on site during their lunch hour, during their tea breaks, etc. etc. What facilities are we providing? How do we make the experience of working on a site for a year or two, whatever the case may be, more inclusive and a much better experience for those people who are in fact building the building. And that's an avenue which I chase quite hard now. And I think that's such a huge thing to always, you know, be mindful of. And as we slowly wrap up the show, five more minutes. Cain Leila, Ratilane, you have five more minutes to drop us a text down below. I know that you haven't texted us to claim your prize. So, if you want to walk away with a thousand rounds to kick-start your weekend, make sure that you drop us a message. Now, Kim, when we talk about inclusive design, you know, what are the areas of your design? Does it, you know, touch on I think one of the great things with, you know, the built environments is that it's fundamentally so broad. And more often than not, people sometimes don't understand the different ways that the built environment, the different ways that they interact with the built environment, just by virtue of even, you know, the rows that we drive on and the various infrastructures that we often use. So, what are some of the other sort of design touch points does? So, you know, a point, a point, for example, is one of the surfaces that you're touching, whether it's with your feet or your hands, et cetera, et cetera, is that level of tactility gritty enough for you to walk on without slipping? Okay, so that's at the sort of really detailed end. In environments, I mean, how biophilic is your environment? How many plants are there? How can you relate to nature whilst you're in this rather sterile environment? You know, I've done a lot of core centers and things like that. And it's sometimes extremely deadly. The environment's not exciting. So, it's about creating a space where people can really not feel at home, but feel excited and be energized by the space that they're in. Flexibility is enormously important to be able to move through those spaces and feel that you have a sense of sovereignty in it. That there's ownership of who you are and what you do and how you relate to things. So, from those sorts of approaches, right up to big master plans, you know, 15-minute cities, smart cities. How are those cities planned? How does one navigate them? Can you reach through walking by 15 minutes, get to all the amenities you need to? I live in a particular suburb in Johannesburg and the reason why I live here is because I am 15 minutes away from nearly every single facility that I would ever need, including a train station. Those tend to be such huge considerations for people. I think one of the downsides with Johannesburg and I guess a part of special planning is that unfortunately not everybody is able to have access to suburbs or areas that give them that kind of ease of amenities that are within a 15-minute drive from where they stay. Far too often people often have to drive or take public transport, which sometimes isn't particularly accessible to access some of those amenities and I think those are some of the things that still need to be adequately addressed. And in many ways they are slowly up, but we're still quite behind in ensuring that the vast majority of people, particularly even in your metros, where you would expect that just about everybody who lives in major metros will be able to be within close proximity to the things that they need. Kim, before we wrap up last question from our side, what would you say the future of your inclusive design of the built environment looks like for South Africa? What excites you about it when you think about what is possible for the future and perhaps any potential challenges that may come up in the future? Well, number one, the pandemic has certainly brought about a lot of rethinking and I find, I mean it's been tough, everyone understands it's been very tough and I really just encourage all the designers who are out there or anyone who's watching is to really ask those questions to their designers and or colleagues in the industry and so on. What does it really mean to now be inclusive? What are you going to put it in place to make this more inclusive? So from that aspect, I think what is going to emerge is a much greater understanding of what Ubuntu actually stands for in this country and for that I'm extremely pleased and I'm really looking forward to the to the mission of participating in the future of those events. Kim, I think that's such a great place to leave this conversation at. Thank you so much for joining us on the show. You're so welcome, thank you. And that is Kim Furburn who's an architect wrapping up the Friday edition of the Private Property Podcast with myself Osamantouma Akumalo. Unfortunately, Cain Leila-Rozalane did not claim that money so we have a roll over 1,500 rounds in the money bag for Monday evening. Remember to watch the show if you know that you're going to the competition, that's the only way that you'll be able to walk away with the cash prize. Well, that's it for myself, Osamantouma Akumalo wrapping up your week. I'll be back on the streets on Monday evening at 7 p.m. You can of course look forward to trying the home shoppers show later on this evening. The team and I will be back over the weekend and I do hope that you will have a great weekend and I'll see you on Monday as usual hope you're staying home and staying safe.