 Hey everybody today we are debating cancel culture and we are starting right ladies and gentlemen thrilled to have you here for another epic debate this is going to be a fun one folks as for the first time ever we are debating cancel culture here at modern day debate we have host debates on politics science and religion and we try to do so in the most nonpartisan way possible so we don't have any aftershows or anything like that it's pure debates here and we are excited to get rolling want to let you know though if it's your first time here consider hitting that subscribe button as we have many more debates coming up so for example we are excited to have Erika and shadow dancer debating next week on the origins of humanity so that should be interesting kind of a creation evolution type of debate and with that want to let you know for tonight's debate it's going to be kind of flexible kind of an easy going format it's going to be a 10 minute opening from Kaz also known as factionalist who's on your left followed by a roughly 10 minute and the speakers can use as little as they want of their 10 minutes where we'll also have a 10 minute opening from Steve who's against cancel culture then we'll have open conversation and finally Q&A so if you have a question feel free to fire it into the old live chat if you tag me with at modern day debate it makes it easier for me to be sure that I get every single question into that Q&A list super chat is also an option in which you could ask a question or make a comment toward one of the speakers that they of course would get a chance to respond to and it would push your question or comment to the top of the list for the Q&A so want to let you know one last thing kind of a housekeeping thing we're excited about as modern day debate is invading the podcast world we are excited this will be in addition to our YouTube channel we're uploading podcasts of all of our new debates and some of our classic big ones from the past and so if you cannot find us on your favorite podcast app let us know we will be sure that we get on there for you and with that we are very excited we really want to say thanks the debaters are the lifeblood of the channel so we really do want to give a huge thanks to Kaz and Steve so first just thanks guys for being here with us it's a pleasure to have you it's a pleasure to be here thank you thank you as well absolutely and a quick reminder to those of you in the audience that I have linked both of our guests in the description so that way if you're listening and you're like I like that I want to hear more you can hear more by clicking on those links so with that we will get the ball rolling with Kaz's opening statement Kaz thanks so much the floor is all yours thank you James and thank you Steve welcome everybody so hello everyone I am Kaz founder of the factionalist network and party and hosts of my discussion show contention's contention's not contention's my goal is to build a community based on my belief which is that facts exist I want to live in a world where facts flow freely I think that there are facts that settle any and all public disputes and I realize that I do not have unfettered access to them in many cases my access to that is at least obscured I think that this is true and I think I can find others who agree with his premise and that we can work together to find those facts extrapolate actual truth and formulate legitimate solutions I think the best way to find truth is to maintain an ever-present skepticism especially of oneself and bias I am here to create a community of humble honest human scumbags who aspire to be more than some of our parts and I believe that the practice of uncovering theft excuse me of uncovering facts is the way to achieve it so let me define cancel culture as I observe it cancel culture is a social phenomena of pressuring public entities to conform to a social standard this is not a new practice it has been it has been in effect since long before I was even born since the very first examples of political correctness emerged in my life I recall first experience in canceling when I in 1997 the Ellen DeGeneres show was canceled when Ellen came out as gay her show was literally canceled now there was no Twitter back then but there was snail mail and newly popularized email this example highlights the admission that I must make in good faith cancellation is a devastating and powerful weapon and has not and will not always be a force of good we have canceled in haste we have rushed to judgment without facts and we have been hypocrites we must engage in constant self reflection and course correction we must resist the allure of self certainty and practice skepticism especially of that which appeals to our biases we do not want to be like those of 1997 and indeed we aren't so let me emphasize the necessity of cancel culture the difference is that nowadays we use that pressure to make ourselves more inclusive instead of less that is a fundamentally superior feature of any community technology as with all life forms the greater the number of agents invested in our continued survival the greater our chances of survival actually are from the beneficial bacteria of our guts to the dynamic duo hunting style that emerged in the relationship between mankind and canine in our evolutionary infancy the religions communities husbandry family structures all these constructs are naturally occurring in every evolving conceptual technologies used to co-opt others into our evolutionary scheme to survive therefore any ideological position action or work which does not foster inclusivity can be reasonably judged detrimental to the overall probability of perpetual human survival therefore said humans have a right to democratically resist and excise such things from our society but crony capitalism lobbying and corruption in general form a blockade which between the righteous indignation of the people and the wrongdoings of the powerful one famous article by martin gillens and benjamin page describes their study of political policy and its influences their multivariate analysis indicates that economic elites and organized groups representing business interests have substantially have substantial independent impacts on the u.s. government policy so much so that any legislative measure even if it's all even if almost every american supports it only has like a 30 percent chance of enactment and conversely if no american supports it it still has a 30 percent chance of being enacted this exposes the necessity for a populist driven instrument of retribution this has become the recourse of the common citizen when the institutions meant to liberate us end up oppressing us we have only each other to turn to we have no nukes no lobbyists no forceful means nor do we desire them we have a tool which has the potential to be totally nonviolent logic driven and democratic we have a force of non force and for the first time in human history it is being used to include instead of exclude to liberate instead of a press I propose that there are some improvements that we can make to cancel culture just as bases neutralized acids and vice versa we must have a mechanism by which to reverse our cancellations uncancelling may be conceptualized as well as people are canceled we will see examples of people select few truly sincere apologetic scumbags that will set examples of acknowledgement restitution and revival they will set the etiquette of cancellation that will afford future mistake makers a tangible avenue of to rebound we must foster a culture of fact checking hesitant sharing self reflection and accountability if we recognize our own hypocrisy and be forward and up front with it as we hold our fellow human scumbags to an ever higher moral standard it stands it starts withholding ourselves up in contrast to the ideal and recognizing the inherent and inevitable shortcomings to recognize that every last one of us is a scumbag in some way and I yield my time thank you very much Kaz we will now kick it over to Steve for his opening statement Steve the floor is all yours sorry about that no problem you one moment all right well thank you very much Kaz for joining me tonight for the debate I know this was on short notice excellent opening as well thanks again to modern day debates and for the opportunity to be here so cancel culture has become an insidious emergent aspect of internet culture and while the concept of cancel culture is not unique to the internet age it has no doubt enhanced the force and pervasive this of its ability to cause harm to individuals first we need to understand what I mean by cancel culture in general loosely to find it as a public attack on an individual or organization through the use of shaming boycotting and demands for monetary or social harm to come to the subject as the intentional conclusion of the attack the public attack is typically typically caused through real or imagined objectionable opinions or socially unacceptable behavior is often typically typified by a modern mob mentality a piling on effect in order not to just criticize but essentially blacklist the individual or organization from social discourse that's not a very succinct definition but I do think it's important that we understand the underlying underlying aim of modern cancel culture but also the divergent parts that characterize it most important argument for cancel culture that I've seen is that it's part of freedom of speech and thus protected by the first amendment or other such tenants of a free society that is true in principle but that cancel call but what cancel culture does is use that veil of a freedom of speech to shut down speech it doesn't agree with is anti freedom of speech it does not facilitate it but it crushes divergent opinions under the weight of the loud angry and offended cancel culture has its positives we saw that in the me too movement that brought down powerful men that exploited their positions but it can also turn quickly into a piling on most obvious example through that me too movement was Aziz sorry who was a subject of a skating attack by a woman who claimed that the salt in a situation that even the near in the narrative appeared to be completely consensual this tendency for culture to eat its own has continued with the recent example of JK Rowling and her statement that people who menstruate I'm sure that there used to be a word for those people and she was referring to women and schism that is apparently part of feminism between transcend transsexuals and classical feminist I suppose the best way to put it and her beliefs were unknown either I was surprised to actually learn that this had been relatively well known that she held this position back into back all the way back into 2019 what but this led to was an interesting peer into what cancel culture how cancel culture can become a new McCarthyism though a recent open letter to harpers of by over 150 authors professors and intellectuals across political spectrum but most of them being on the left denounce cancel culture as an intolerant an intolerance of opposing views a vogue of public shaming and ostracism the tendency to dissolve complex policy issues in a blinding moral certainty we uphold the value of robust and even causative counter speech from all quarters and it goes on to say and uses some examples though that they're not specific that editors have been fired for running controversial pieces books have been withdrawn for alleged inauthentic inauthenticity journalists are barred from writing on certain topics professors are investigated for quoting works of literature in class a researcher is firing is fired for circulating peer reviewed academic studies and heads of organizations are out ousted for sometimes just a clumsy mistake. This was just yesterday that this letter came out. Already signatures started to back off though. Some re some stated that they didn't read the letter and they didn't know the full context or that they didn't know the other signatures. JK Rowling was one of the signatures to that letter and as a result many of the folks that did end up signing on to it gave a vague description that they didn't know who else was on that letter and they wanted to withdraw their position even though they didn't disagree with the letter which obviously they would have had to read. I would hope they had read before signing it. This includes Kerry Greenridge who is a historian Jennifer Boland who claimed ignorance that others were signing the list and was problematic and didn't want the guilt of association to Matthew Young Saley of Vox who is which is a extremely left wing organization who ended up getting called out by a fellow Vox contributor for the guilt of association as well. But this gets more pervasive. It doesn't just target the very top listening to a story on the bulwark with Charlie Sykes and he was interviewing a gentleman named Yeltsik Morak of persuasion not familiar with the publication is fairly new. A story about a Hispanic immigrant who was driving a work truck dangling his fingers out the window as pictures snapped and what appeared to be an okay white power symbol. The company was immediately attacked on social media and before the weekend end he had ended up losing his job. There were roving Twitter mobs on social media that have made it a hobby to search for tangible offenses particularly against college students by digging up offensive comments from their youth. A Boeing executive not exactly a normal guy but regardless was fired for writing a paper opposing women serving in the military a paper he wrote 30 years ago. A Los Angeles soccer team player was fired for racist comments his wife said I'm sure that I've only been able to scratch the surface of these examples of cancel culture and the rationality and assaults on freedom of speech. We are undergoing a period of civil discourse that is quickly and intentionally being eroded into cancel discourse. Say something that steps outside of the loudest and most easily offended you not only risk yourself being you don't only just risk yourself being challenged for your beliefs but now you risk your livelihood. That is suppression of speech to fear and mob rule because if you don't toe the line you might be next. I'm going to conclude with a quote that Barack Obama had stated in 2009 regarding the entire cancel culture in general. This idea of purity that you're never compromised and that you're politically woke and all this stuff. You just get over that quickly. The world is messy. You're ambiguity ambiguities. People who do really good stuff have flaws. And with that I yield the remainder of my time. Thank you very much Steve and with that we will jump into the open conversation section. So with that the floor is all yours gentlemen. Okay thank you Steve for that opening. I want to first ask you about is that letter from that JK Rowling signed? How did you how did that strike you that the overall letter? Did you agree with all of it? Some of it? How did that go? Well I do know that a good portion of that letter was actually targeted towards right-wing speech and specifically I believe Trump was mentioned in the beginning of it and well I don't specifically agree that it's that cancel culture has not been on the right. It has. It definitely has. I do see that the body of the letter the the actual specifics when they're actually talking about the issues with cancel culture that that's what struck me. That that's what interests me the most. So when I was going through it the here's why what struck me about that quote that you read about editors are fired for running controversial pieces books are withdrawn for legend in authenticity. Let's just go with those two. If an editor let's say that I was a board member of a newspaper or in some other corporate aspect in charge and I find out that my editor is a closeted Nambla supporter. You know what that is? Yes. Okay yeah and I noticed that he's writing up editorials and pushing a narrative with the pieces that he's allowing into my newspaper that are encouraging his proclivities and trying to make it more mainstream. Do I have a right to have him removed if I can? Well I mean it depends on why you're removing him if it's specifically because he sports child pedophilia which which Nambla is you know regarding and what it supports. I don't I don't see any issue with an editor making a decision that he does not want his paper perpetuating that but we had a situation and I forget the name of this editor that wrote the piece regarding utilizing National Guard in cities and I think it was the Washington poster New York Times ran the article and immediately after it was ran the editorial I don't even think it was the editorial board I think it was people in the newsroom automatically started screaming why is this being ran this this this goes against all of our beliefs and that paper and I apologize I don't have the paper off hand because obviously I didn't have a whole lot of time to prepare here today but um they they ended up I believe they fired the the editor that ran that piece didn't they? I'm not aware I'm going to ask you more about it. I'll go I'll go I'll go ahead and I'll go ahead and try to find it here I didn't I didn't have a chance to do that one. So so he was but just to like understand um he was fired because he was pro use of the National Guard in the city or against no no no no he ran an article that or an editorial regarding regarding it it wasn't it wasn't the individual it was a senator that wrote the paper or that wrote the the article itself. A senator wrote a paper an editor allowed it into the paper and then the editor was fired for allowing it in the paper okay and the senator was advocating to use National Guard in the city limits. Correct correct I see okay and um the people that worked in the newspaper the his his colleagues and co-workers were the ones that were demanding his removal? Yes and it was I apologize I've got it here now it was Tom Cotton that uh wrote the paper wrote the editorial and it was during the heights of the riots as well by the way and I think it was an evocation of utilizing the Insurrection Act. Okay so it was the New York Times. Let's say that we lived in the world where that uh governor did go ahead and authorize that use of military force inside the the city limits. Now the the people that work in that newspaper they live in that city too presumably right? Well it was a senator and it was advocating more of a federal side of things but yeah the senator would want the governor to do it. The governor would have to actually do the action right? Okay so let's say that the senator convinces the governor with the editorial and they actually do bring the National Guard in. The people that work in that newspaper live presumably in that city or around that area right they presumably have a stake in this situation. Oh it would be in New York yes. Okay so do you think that it's unreasonable for them to not want to work with somebody that desires the military to come into their town? Well while I was stating that an editorial should only be sharing the opinions of the paper because that the New York Times runs editorials from Putin, it runs they've ran them from jihadists. Does that does that mean that they can only have a narrow view on what they're presenting in their editorial page? I'm not talking about the hard news stuff I mean the hard news stuff is different I understand that and if it's an internal editor or an internal opinion piece I can understand that as well. They could choose not to run the piece in the first place but they don't have to wait until they run it and then automatically suddenly it's somehow beyond the pale that you can ever disagree with anybody in the newsroom. You're shutting down discourse essentially. Sure but the editor of that paper has the ability and I'm sure he probably often does editorialize things that he allows into his paper. If he allows a controversial topic to be published about he is allowed to write his own editorial and comment on it and make a stance as to what he believes. Oh certainly, certainly. And you can run an imposing opinion as well. Is it unreasonable to presume that perhaps his lack of writing such editorial would be a tested endorsement of what the senator was saying? Not necessarily and again if you're saying that any time an opinion piece is published by a paper that that paper automatically supports that opposition then where do we get any of our where do we have divergent opinions? That's not what I'm trying to say. It's kind of how I felt. It's kind of what I felt you were saying there but go ahead. Okay but let me try to clarify what I'm trying to say is that it is possible and maybe even likely that the people that worked in that newspaper with him every day knew him to some degree and when they saw that he was allowing this paper to print this article that this was yet another indication of his attitude in general and they were personally threatened by this because like I said they live in that city they have family and loved ones that could potentially be killed by the military if that senator gets his way which may be the editor's way as well. That's what I'm trying to say. So you're automatically licking any time that a publication has an opinion piece that it automatically supports that piece? No, no, I'm thinking that about this specific situation because of the fact that it is his co-workers themselves that are rallying for his dismissal and not just the general public or the twitter mob. This is actually people who know him. Okay I don't see quite the difference here. Okay. I mean if there's still people that live in New York that would have had that same position and there's people in New York that probably would support usually the military in certain situations in that in that city and I don't want to get into a discussion too much about that aspect because I'm not anywhere prepared for it but what I'm hearing is that it's okay to it's not okay for any paper or any any publication in general to run anything that might be counteractory to its staff's position. No, no, I don't think that at all. I'm trying to say that if something if a decision that you make as a boss in a workplace makes everybody that works there uncomfortable to work with you they have a right to lobby to have you removed because this is not cancel culture. This is not a cultural thing. This specific example is the workplace. This is the people that he works with every day. This isn't the twitter mob. This isn't a movement of random people. This is actually people that know him saying hey we don't want to work with this guy anymore and they work there. They have a right to have a non-hostile work environment as well. So do you only define cancel culture as anything more than five people or 10 people or it needs to be utilized through social media? I mean I guess that's kind of where I'm a little confused because it seems like anytime that you have a differing opinion of something or even tacitly support a differing opinion that's when you become a target from folks that believe that anything that's published or anything that goes against what their their social construct idea might be shouldn't be in a position of strength or power for whatever reason. This is not about any time. It isn't just this specific example which maybe we're getting sidetracked by yeah yeah we might we might be taking a whole year. Yeah I feel like this I don't have a whole lot of information and yeah yeah I mean that's that's that's fair that's fair. Let's move on huh do you want to take the next point? Let's see here I don't have one off hand so go right ahead if you got something. So the the second sentence books withdrawn for alleged inauthenticity that seems to me to be an empty criticism if the if the inauthenticity is legitimate then that can be substantiated factually if it is if the authenticity can be substantiated then you can re-release the book or whatever the work is. What do you think of that? Well again it kind of depends on who's making that that decision too. No unfortunately they can provide specific examples here and I'm not familiar with the specific example that they're giving in that specific sentence there. I'm pulling the letter up here because it sounds like you might have it up as well. You know I just have my notes on it but yeah you're right they're not very specific at all then that was another criticism I intended to make but I thought that might be petty but yeah. But it's no I mean it's I I I I kind of agree with you on that that that part of it. Unfortunately when they're writing an open letter and they've got what 150 people signing that well I think it's down to 149 or something like that because of all the people that are withdrawing their names from it. But when we have that many issues that they're trying to go through providing an academic paper specifics and things like that is going to create more diversiveness between who's signing it and who's not. I know that one of the signatures and some of the signatures on this letter were specific targets of things of this nature. Stephen Pinker I believe is one of them who had petuated something in regards to a study and that's I believe that's where that study that academic peer reviewed study comes from and I'm trying to look through my notes here. He was a linguistic expert and apparently something that he disseminated ended up getting essentially him a canceled mob started going after him for that. Let me see if I can pull up the specifics for you here. I'm sorry I wish I had this. Yes. Do you feel that people should feel at should feel at liberty to say anything they want without fear of reprisal as the article suggests? Do you agree with that statement? So I don't have an issue with folks being able to respond critically to a disagreement that they may have. What I have an issue with is the specific targeting and attempt to essentially dislodge them for any perceived mistake from any quarter for any reason. And I mean specifically I mean we obviously know most of this is coming from the left currently now it's not always come from the left there's obviously in the past we have things like ban books and things like that that mostly came from the right. But I mean we look at these kinds of things and we automatically assume well this seems like where society is going and any divergent opinion that might be out there we need to silence in order to maintain whatever through line we believe needs to be at the end and that's where I have an issue with we continuously are looking at individuals and shutting them down if they have an opinion that doesn't necessarily track with with the you know greater greater social ideals that that are occurring right now. So like my example well let's just move on from that. You feel that I just I don't get a sense of where the line is with you. I don't understand what exactly is what do you mean unacceptable to you. Is there anything unacceptable to you. Is there anything that if one of somebody that you followed on whatever I mean calling said that you would say I'm not listening to them anymore call it calling for specific violence. I think it is is an easy line to draw and not just not just generalized use of use force or things like that in a governmental context unless they're calling for genocide or something along those lines. I think that's an easy line to to throw down and obviously genocide is an easy one. Okay well let's do that one for a second. Yeah go ahead go ahead go ahead break that. Okay so let's go back to the impeachment hearings and with Trump and his perfect call right how did you feel about that. I actually supported the proceedings of impeachment. I did not support the actual removal though. Would you agree that it's would you agree that it's a fair characterization of his call that he was speaking in a. Oh are you referring to a specific. I'm sorry the language that he used was legally washed. I don't know the right. Oh you're referring to the actual discussion that he was having with the Ukraine. Is that what I'm understanding. When he spoke to the Ukrainian president. I wasn't I wasn't I wasn't quite sure what you meant by that but go ahead. Sorry I don't have the right phrase in my head right now. That's all right sorry. Do you think that. Oh yeah yeah. Was carefully selected to be legally washed watered down. I don't think anything that Trump says is very measured or thought through to be honest unless he's got a teleprompter in front of him and that doesn't happen very often. Well my my take of that was that he knew what he was saying. He knew what had already been said in the subtext and he knew that he didn't have to say anything more than what he said to make the message come through loud and clear to that president and then subsequently we all understood it but it seemed that there was this. There was this. Deliberate ignorance from the other side of the aisle. They did not want to see the subtext at all. Do you do you see what I'm saying there. Are you referring to the right not understanding the subtext or the right went the right. The the people on the right right supporters. Okay. Do you. Well I think there's a ten. No no I think I think I think I I think I figured out where you were going with that and sorry. I think I know where where you're trying to direct me as well because I'm even though why I consider myself concerned about not a Trump support so it makes it a little difficult for me to kind of box myself into where you were kind of going in that direction. But yeah I think most I think most people end up supporting the side that they deem their ideological you know where they where they said ideologically or in the case of Trump where they said politically. I don't know if there's really an ideology that that follows through with him as as much but the point I'm trying to make sure how this is yeah go right ahead because I just wrap it up tight. There's a way to speak and spread bad negative detrimental information or ideas that is implicit to a degree that it cannot be easily discerned from explicit racism sexism etc that I think is what called the cancel culture is not designed but should be used to remedy things of that nature where we cannot legally officially remove people because they have not technically broken any laws but are still being detrimental to our society. But but then then we're having the mob decide what is that subtext and well why are we calling it a mob? I mean it tends to be I mean that's what the whole cancel culture idea is right you're utilizing a large group of people and I'm not you're trying to use it in a detrimental way or anything like that I don't know you want me to call it a group of folks I can do that too. It is a democratic process isn't it? I don't think there's any actual legal portions in the cancel culture idea. I mean in spirit and philosophy it's a people coming together making decisions together. I don't disagree with the fact that it can be utilized for good but I think it also tends to start going further and further and then I know that's a slippery slope argument but I mean it's been happening and we've noticed it being happening. I gave a couple examples that I was able to find through the introduction and I don't understand where you were coming from there should be a way to uncancel yourself but I don't see that happening. I don't even see like folks that that are getting smashed right off the bat for things that they've had that's happened 10 20 years ago. Look at all the incidents that occurred with and I'm going to use something that's probably familiar with everybody here you know Jimmy Kimmel and Fallon and their portrayals of black individuals and they use blackface not necessarily 1930s version of that but it's now and then no one really seemed to bat an eye. Now 10 years later 15 years later it's something that you have to own up for and they did they each of them owned up for it but I don't think that they were still cancelled as a result of it they were still attacked for it. I know blackface is a hard one to roll on because I mean it's not an easy thing to defend but especially in today's culture and I'm not defending it either just just so you're aware I don't I don't want to I don't want to come across as that either. So what would you say should have been the remedy just I'm sorry and that's good? I mean that if someone accepts that something that they did 10-15 years ago is is incorrect especially in today's society when it might have been acceptable 10 to 15 years ago we can't hold everybody attributed to the culture you have today where something that happened 10, 15, 20 years ago we do that we're all in trouble. Well I think that depends on the level of remorse that they demonstrate when they are confronted with the facts of their actions when they are shown that their behaviors harm people and they say I'm not going to call in either of them out specifically for not being honest or whatever but I think it just depends on the specific situation and I don't think that we have that much of a disagreement I would think that it's more of a of a my side versus your side that creates or inflates some of this disagreement because I do acknowledge that there are some people that have been unfairly canceled and that we are a little hasty sometimes to to pass judgment on people we don't fact check as good as we should I think everybody in America has probably shared some fake news at some point and that we all need to own up to that but I don't think that we need to throw the baby out with the bathwater that this is a great tool for us to use to be able to excise people like Harvey Weinstein or you know anybody else who's a predator and has been being able to operate with impunity for so long you know and obviously that allowed the law enforcement law enforcement to take care of the issue at the end of the day because that's ultimately what needed to happen in that situation but again when we're relying on folks that can basically have any opinion that they want and you get that piling on effect that's that's that's the thing that I I'm most concerned about you can you can say I there's there's organizations that I don't shop at because I don't agree with with the political stance they've taken or or an issue that they've had in the past I don't necessarily find it necessary to go on Twitter and find as many people as I can to knock them out of existence I don't really I wouldn't target individuals I don't think that's really necessary well I mean I just disagree I think that when people make mistakes it's okay to hold them accountable I think that it's good for all of us to not only hold people accountable but to be held accountable and I think that when it comes time for all of us to get cancelled I said in a meme once that I made in the future everyone will be cancelled for 15 minutes and I think that that means when it comes time when it's your turn to be cancelled that's your chance to to step up and be an example example of what it means to recognize your shortcomings and find a way back so everybody has got to be put forward to the guillotine eventually and and hopefully you manage not to get your head chopped off I mean that seems well when everybody's being put forward it's not really a guillotine it's more like I mean I get a nice tomato maybe I was maybe I was being a little hyperbolic there I get that I think maybe we need people to volunteer to be cancelled we need some people that are willing to say hey I have made these mistakes nobody's put them out yet nobody's called me out on it yet but I'm ready to step up and say I made these mistakes and I am really sorry and I'm going to do some things that are going to make up for it and you can either accept it or not how I mean again I guess that's not even the the issue with culture cancel or cancel culture though that that that that is a completely separate issue of owning up for your mistake or owning up for something that you may have said incorrectly or or done something incorrectly in the past because what where cancel culture comes in is it's a concerted effort to delegitimize that individual and and essentially destroy their lives well I don't think that's fair I think that it's a concerted effort to hold them accountable now it may end up being that their lives get destroyed or whatever but that's not the intention I think at least not most of the time I mean that seems to be the the result in most cases I mean yeah there's there's folks out there that that have enough power or have enough wealth that they don't have to worry about it that much I mean jk Rowling's gonna be fine she's not gonna have any issues and well that's the thing and the current events that are going around who doesn't who you think you have that doesn't have that ability to bounce back or be okay well if I if you lose your job over something that you said 10 15 years ago and you're you're not you don't have that support structure you know what what happens you you have to and that's going to follow you around for a long time well I mean I know we're being bagged here I don't I don't have a specific example other than the one night the few that I used in the intro there but if you write a racist diatribe 10 years ago and that's just sitting there on the internet for anybody to find I mean is it unreasonable to hold you accountable to that if there's no evidence that that actually has changed if you ever because just because you don't say those things anymore just because they don't dress in blackface anymore does not mean that they actually feel sorrow or regret for those actions they may just not even think about it anymore it seems totally legitimate to me to say hey this is something you did 10 years ago how do you feel about it now what do you think about that part of it if you're if you're able to well and that's I mean that's a logical way of putting it but I don't think that's how the cancel calls are typically going about it though it says you said this thing 10 years ago it doesn't matter what you say now you need to be removed from your position you need to be kicked out and ostracized for for for this thing now a racist diatribe you know that's a little easier to go about but you know the the fellow I mentioned regarding uh writing about women not being in the military uh three years ago which was not like a completely unheard of opinion he gets fired for that I mean that that seems completely off the off the rails and and that's and you know there's that saying it's better to let a hundred guilty people go free rather than have one innocent man go to jail right but that it seems reversed with cancel culture it seems like it's better to make sure that we hit everybody up make sure everybody goes to jail everybody gets that cancel culture and that seems like what you're advocating here too everybody gets canceled and then you know then we can sort out the the innocent from the guilty afterwards after the damage has been done I don't think that that's a totally unfair characterization and I will agree to that because I think that the power of the government and its role and the way that it can punish us for our misdeeds or whatever uh that's a whole other level of destructive capability and and while the the mob may be able to get you fired they may be able to expose you and ruin your reputation that is a consequence of your actions similar to a crime if you commit a crime you go to jail if you do something fucked up in social circles then you get canceled and at least you aren't in jail at least you have the freedom to defend yourself and at least you have a chance to make up for if you in fact are wrong or I mean are right that's all right sorry sorry um yeah but the there are systems in place within the government that ensure I mean they're not perfect obviously and nothing is that you know as few innocent people go to jail as possible as few are punished unwarringly now that doesn't always work but there's no accountability within cancer culture at least in government you have the ability to appeal at least you have an attorney to defend you that that's not how cancer culture works an attorney can't do anything against a an organized twitter for assault on you they can they can maybe write a nice little response for you but they're not going to be able to stop that they can't they can't turn it around or anything like that or or shut it down as a result well to that I say you have yourself you have the facts that you know and you know what you did and what you did not do and it is up to you to get out there and make your case to the public and try to make yourself to alleviate this burden that you're having if you indeed are innocent of it to the people who get canceled I would tell them uh triple check your bias and your facts and your motive and if you still feel like what you were doing is right then stay the course and if you engage with honest interrogators in good faith and be open to distinct possibility that you in fact miss something crucial or that you fucked up royally and that you're not the bastion of truth and reason and goodness that you think you might be then things might be okay but that's what the cancel culture is expressing though they're they're assuming to have all that virtue and all of that uh that that that special obligation to find and root out any any indiscretions is that anybody's had in the past now I mean it's easy to it's easy to go about and state that you shouldn't utilize racial slurs and you shouldn't do racist things that that's an easy and that's and and I know that it's what a lot of cancel culture focuses on that's that's very obvious but it doesn't just focus on those things it focuses on a lot of political opinions that you may have that diverge from the the regular from from what what they organize us again I mean the utilization and we went work I'm kind of gonna spend back to what we were talking about earlier here with with that uh New York Times editor and the editorial that was put in I mean that was not an unheard of opinion and throughout the country that you know in certain areas the use of National Guard may not be a bad idea in order to uh you know tamper down the escalating violence in in cities and and I don't know how that becomes something that is not necessarily uh a completely outside the the pale point of view to becoming something that is so terrible that it needs to be removed from the discourse well I think that it's obvious that everybody has learned probably since kindergarten that two wrongs they'll make a right that you can't violence begets violence you just you cannot you it's interesting to me that when these issues come up when people are mad at their government they want the government to make a change instead of actually considering how they could make those changes they just want to squash it and silence it and put it away and forget about it until something else happens I mean that should be an unheard of idea to me that's just my opinion I I guess I missed the context of where you were going with that I was saying that it's better to let to just I couldn't quite get it I didn't quite get it could you repeat it one more time before before we try to squash a riot with more violence maybe try actually changing some policies well I mean that's possibility but usually riots don't begin and we're gonna we're gonna get off topic we're gonna get off topic with that and I don't want to go into it too much um do you want to mention that pardon my interruption we will probably go it's going out and like maybe like five minutes or so so I think if either of you at whatever point you feel is natural is up for deferring to the other giving them the last word and by last word I don't mean like a statement of like a speech but just kind of like kind of the last word in the dialogue as it goes that'd be awesome and so if you have any final points just to kind of touch on before we wrap up sure I'd have a little statement I wanted to finish up with and then um I went first so Steve you can have the last word okay all right so I just want to say this is my message to the cancelled no matter who you are or what you have done you have the opportunity today and tomorrow and every tomorrow that lies before you to do better make maybe you can never I'm sorry maybe you can never make all the way up for the harm that you've caused that you but that should not stop you from trying if you still have anyone willing to listen to you when the smoke settles that is your opportunity to be the change we all need to see in the world imperfect people owning their shit and busting their asses to make it better for those they've hurt and all the rest of us too we don't need paragons we need real people willing to make real progress towards unity you got it thanks so much and go ahead Steve so the other thing I'll finish up on is that um at the end of the day what I think the main concern with castle culture is is that it's it's arbitrary there there's not any defined there's not a definition as to what is right and what is wrong under under their their veil it could be one thing one day and another thing another day what we need to recognize is that it's okay to call people out for their bad behavior that's that's that's quite all right have a dialogue with them discuss it criticize them discuss it with them but don't utilize that as an excuse to attack their livelihood their their fortune their their social structures everything like that and I just think that it's better to have a dialogue than to attack then that'll yield my time gotcha and want to say thanks so much folks for all of your questions we're gonna jump right into them want to say a couple of housekeeping things I forgot to mention at the start of the debate one is that we are on parlor now so if you're on parlor hey say hello it's kind of I mean the word on the streets is it's kind of like the something like Twitter I honestly don't fully understand it yet I think it's like is it is it let me know in the chat is it is it like republican twitter is that accurate I don't know the other thing is we are also on subscribe star now so if you're like a patreon I'm not into patreon well subscribe star is an option if you want an alternative so appreciate all of your support and we'll start with your super chats thanks for those as well folks really appreciate it first comes in from Steven steen nasty guy says cancel all culture thanks for that Steven smoky saint thanks for your super chat says after show on my channel after the debate that's right so feel free smoky we will if anybody has an after show no matter what channel it's on atheist christian democrat republican you name it we will put it in the description if you'd like and feel free to share it in the live chat just let us know and that way we can give you a wrench so you can share it next the chat thanks for your super chat said question for factition or Kaz as we've gotten to know him tonight said at what point do we say cancel culture is becoming too extreme and almost fascist I think that that's based on the specific context of the canceling I would say if if you wanted to make a broad statement about the whole thing just being too much I don't know that there is a line there because I believe in democracy and I do believe that the people should make their own way and decide for themselves I would have to think a lot more about that gotcha and thanks for your question this one comes in from see if you've got that also from the Chad says question for Kaz says why is it that media example CNN and their talking heads are never held to the same standard according to cancel culture the lies they have put out have been detrimental to the country have they not well this is a speculation but I'm gonna guess it's probably because the people that could fire them are all guilty of the same shit that they are gotcha thanks for your question from a sunflower let's see says cancel culture is like Marina Abramovics I wish I knew who that is famous performance art piece rhythm zero except instead of volunteering yourself the audience picks who goes next I wish that I was cultured enough to know who who this person is but thank you for yeah I don't know what that is but I think I understand the the context I've got a feeling do you know who this is Kaz I don't know what that meant well we tried all right thanks for that question no folks and thanks for your question this one coming in from Kevin Gilfoo good to see you again Kevin says when is modern day debate coming to my space Tom is lonely that's funny is my space does it still exist can you make a profile I think it got canceled yeah very good and Tom are you referring to Tom jump we love Tom so much I love it did you guys see if you didn't see yesterday's debate between him and ask yourself it was a lot of fun I love not yet I listen to them while I'm working it's uh yeah by the way it's on podcast now in case you're like oh yeah like all right I'll listen to it so next up thanks for your question this one comes in from supporter patriots supporter spart 344 thanks for your question said factional or Kaz Liam Neeson did come forward about an incident in his past and he was crucified for it there is no incentive for putting your neck on the block man so he's not working anymore at all or I mean I'm not sure what happened with Liam Neeson if he's truly came forward and uh made a attempt at amends if he's truly that sorry about whatever he did then I would say people should give him another chance if that's the case I don't know what exactly happened there but uh if there's so many things I don't know I can't really comment on it but I'm just saying if people make a real concerted effort to try to make up for whatever they did wrong then try to give them a second chance that's uncancelling we can cancel and we can uncancel and if we do both then neither is that bad gosh yeah I think one thing that's probably happened tonight and that I because I've seen it like it's kind of wandered into this where cancel culture I think like the strict technical definition would probably be like you cancel the show or someone loses a job there's like some sort of like something on paper I think because this one I remember I don't know if he's and I think cancel culture sometimes people are perceiving it as because in this case I could be wrong let me know spart if I'm wrong with this that I know that people were they there was outrage on Twitter over Liam Neeson I don't know if they like if I heard anything about losing a job though but if you call if you I mean so how do you guys define cancel culture um and spart pregnant if I'm wrong if maybe there was something more than just the Twitter outrage maybe he did lose a potential role in a movie or something I I do think it was mostly just outrage I do remember the incident and I don't know if I want to go completely into it but essentially he had said something along the lines he was in an interview and he had mentioned at the 10 20 years ago he uh his sister or friend had been assaulted and it was by a dark skin individual and then he said afterwards that all he wanted to do was go find some of that same ethnicity and and kick their butt and it was I think the way he was expressing it was that he had this emotion and he felt sorry for it and he actually was expressing that in the interview and as a result there was an outrage I don't think he lost a role because I know he's still probably working right now so I don't know how impactful it was on his life other than for maybe a year or a few months or something like that but um I I think he eventually I think eventually what ended up happening is more the context came apparent about what that interview was and it kind of retracted a lot of what the the the the anger at him was in Hollywood I don't I don't know all the details because it was a couple years ago that this happened as well so that's that's really all I've got to say on it though gosh um I go ahead I would just like to uh I think it's more precise to consider when somebody's being when their job is demanding when the people are demanding that they lose their job when people are clamoring for uh deep platforming that's what I would call that deep platforming uh the the outrage and the uh the the general boycott I think that is the cancel culture and that uh deep platforming is an aspect of of um cancel culture and that there's a time and a place for it gotcha and thanks for your question this one did have a question D. Lee or D. L thanks for your question our parlor handle is I think it's just modern day debate I could be wrong but thanks for asking and so whether it be on Twitter we do have Facebook and Twitter as well folks so whatever social media you enjoy feel free to say hello Facebook's the only one that I just I like it's so cumbersome with the messages folks that I feel free to email me I try to get back to every single email except for the the hate email I get from Steve over here look at him he's very proud of himself look at that self-righteous smile I've been trying to get canceled for modern day debates but it's not working he's been trying he's persistent thanks for your question from this one is from who is it that asked this oh Francesca King thanks for your question asked that said Monica Lewinsky has been bolstered as a victim of cancel culture is that an accurate summary what do you guys think so because she go ahead because I understand how is she canceled she got more job offers she had a book come out and everything like that because of the whole scandal who canceled her and what yeah I I think there may have been something that happened a few years ago with her but I don't think it was like a cancel like I think it was just her kind of speaking out more in depth about what had happened but I yeah I'm at a loss is exactly where they're going with that myself too the last time that I heard anything of her they were hailing her for her bravery and and whatnot hmm I don't know I have no idea but thanks for your question kill a doggy one said Steve do you have a problem with people losing their jobs over racist comments made within the last two years in the last two years probably not I do have an issue when it's targeted against folks that maybe have said something in their youth or or early adulthood you know people aren't very smart during that time period of their life and and just just stay stupid stuff I don't know specifically if he's mentioning one incident that I've got because I tried to stay away from supporting or or saying that cancel culture had targeted anybody that had utilized any racial terms in a in a positive way as an I've been saying that if they were canceled as a result of those types of things then I don't see such a problem with it it's when it's targeted at things that have occurred decades or years ago or or don't take into account a person's age or or other factors that may go into what that incident may have been. Gotcha and just scanning for any extra questions thanks for let's see who was it someone just I appreciate the friendly positive feedback they corrected me and not in a rude way it was a very tactful way DL thank you defended parlor saying it's not just for republicans it's a true platform that does not censor free speech like other fake platforms that's like I think we know where where you stand on that one thanks for that DL and next thanks for your question this one comes in from let's see I want to read the ones that just in case we have somebody who had one that hadn't gotten asked yet Andrew Bia thanks for your question said forward factionalist in a roundabout way it seems like you are saying we all should basically be given a questionnaire and judged for our answers then punished I don't think I'm trying to say that at all I don't know if it's okay to say this um there's this youtuber that I have been watching for years dusty smith cult of dusty he years ago and maybe not even that many years ago said a bunch of horrible racist and and just crappy things and um since then he's done a lot of work to try to rehabilitate the not not his image but the the effect that he had on the people that he offended and I think that he is a good example of somebody who experiences the cancellation and then reacts to it in a positive way and tries to turn it into something that benefits the rest of the world um he goes on uh rants about this in his videos and if anybody else links it in the chat or in the comment or whatever that'd be great um you just listen to what he has to say about it and I think that you'll it'll resonate with you it's okay to get to own your shit and it's okay to be called out it's not okay to act like you didn't do anything wrong when you know you did and it's not okay to try to to make yourself out to be the victim just because you don't want to lose your job you can get other jobs I'm sorry if you can't work in tv anymore I'm sorry if you can't be a celebrity anymore maybe you have to work at Walmart but that's life gotcha and kill a doggie one thanks for your question said do individual businesses have the freedom to not fire people or is the mob forcing their will and that's for steve would have guessed that's for steve yep well yeah I would I would say that the mobs or if we don't want to use the word bob I understand that uh if it's being fostered upon a company and and sometimes it's not even an actual uh department to their their productivity or or their bottom line but it's just the perceived threat of it occurring that leads to someone getting fired or or demoted or removed from a position no they do have that's one thing that they do have the ability to do they have the ability not to fire someone they have the ability to fire someone I know that there was there's been a discussion and I didn't get a hold because I had but we had 24 hours about to prepare for this so I did I wasn't able to get into this discussion too much but there is a discussion regarding the yet will employ and whether some aspects of cancel culture is of is detrimental to the idea of having no protections for an at will employee I don't know if I necessarily agree with that but I think it's a discussion to be able to had to see whether there is more of a due process that can be that can occur when someone's fired for something that occurs off company property gotcha I'm for a due process sorry no problemo and let's see I think we got this one that one is a little bit confusing for me in social media classes Francesca let's see if you want to ask it in another way I'll try to see if I can figure it out but I'm also sleep deprived so sorry about that spark 344 thanks for your question oh we got that one that's on Liam Neeson and spark 344 brings out jenke yuger from the young Turks so we should try to get someone from the young Turks that'd be a lot of fun said jenke wrote some relatively nasty stuff back when he was a republican why does he and people on his side get a pass while heart couldn't host the Oscars I think they were referring to Kevin Hart yeah I talked to somebody about this Kevin Hart and shank you go right before we had this debate and I'm sorry if I get these facts wrong I'm sorry if my timeline is messed up and please feel free to correct me I love being corrected I love to learn and become better than what I am jenke I feel like has done work to reverse the damage that he has done with the messages that he spread when he was a republican the the things that he said that were repugnant I think that he is specifically gone after the oppression that he created with his work since then I remember seeing a interview with Lil Uzi Vert where he was calling out Kevin Hart on how his jokes um they exemplify uh Uzi's uh experience as a gay man in the black community and I think actually they were both on the on a talk show together and Kevin Hart definitely did not get why this was a problem he definitely didn't see how he was perpetuating the oppression of of black gay men in their own homes you know and I think that that's the difference it's do you you say you're sorry that's great are you actually going to make up for it are you going to put forth a real effort to reverse the damage that you've done gosh thank you for that and let's see we'd have a not a new question that just flew in thanks for this question this one comes in from dearest a t two productions asks question for factionalists you're in all the questions Hogan says who sets the rules for what does and does not warrant your supported form of cancellation we do all of us together we're already doing it right now there's no specific body to make the choices for us we're all doing it at the same time we are a co we act as a collective whether we like to or not all of our little actions contribute to a larger picture that is the macro state of the universe got you thanks and francesca king thanks for clarifying said should we teach proper social media media use at younger ages and up so like throughout school definitely well i think should be a given gotcha and want to say i think oh wait we do have we have a from can i say one thing about that question i think that we also need to just um it's difficult to be a human being we are animals we're just a brain inside of a head peering out of these eyeballs trying to figure out what the hell this is this thing is called life and um a lot of people they don't get the guidance and the uh the wisdom from elders to teach them how to actually interact with people of the opposite sex of different cultures and races being secluded in uh in your family unit and whatever their specific beliefs are we definitely need to get more public in teaching each other like there it'd be great if there was a youtube channel where women uh talk to men about how to approach them and give them advice on on how to how to escalate a sexual what is it a attempt to create a sexual relationship in a way that is non-offensive in a way that is non-obtrusive but effective right i think that would be a great thing to do gotcha and thank you for her uh not i'm not laughing at you just in the chat because i said can't still tea jump we love tom jump folks in fact someone sent a super chat in yesterday that i forgot to read it came in like last may or i missed it is they said when will tom jump's chair debate maya ben david i don't know who maya ben david is but we can set that up so we'll be in touch with tom's chair but yes for real and writing in tom's chair for president yet huh oh right in tom's chair for president there there will be soon i promise but yes so i mean it might be a good start that do not cancel top tea jump folks we love him we uh we just love him so much i i say cancel him but keep the chair cancel that's true and cancel steven steen i like that to you oh god that's smart but yeah so thanks so much everybody it's been a really fun time and oh there was okay i have one or two more things so one oh that's great logical possible probably coming at you tonight i missed his super chat sorry about that uh two things one a pretty popular youtuber recently reached out to me just today they asked would someone is there someone out there that takes the position that 9 11 was in some way led by the u.s. government and i don't mean indirectly like we were you know that we in some way indirectly brought about terrorism i mean like directly facilitated and brought about 9 11 so if somebody has that position if you want to come on a debate this youtuber is looking for an opponent it'd probably be about a month or two out should be a big debate and want to let you know to email me at modern day debate a gmail we're still looking for anyone who also who defends the proposition that alien abductions are legitimate and that there is good evidence for them so that would be another fun one is we surprised we haven't actually heard anything for that so maybe i'm not surprised i don't know logical plausible probable says where they could have sworn that i saw more than one from them they're they're like says oh yeah i don't know we got it uh they're coming at you cas he says four or no maybe it's not maybe he's more for the like cancel culture as an abstract entity he says for cancel culture no he must be newest how old are you your positions are child bike well can argue with that can i thank you well let's see you do well at that being very poised i don't know if there's a fair enough thing is there anybody that we have on who get who gets like genuinely ticked off about super chats that are trying to get a rise out of them i'm trying to think i don't think there is anybody i can do it if you'd like i think they're i think they're all gone now then we have another one logical plausible probable oh he's coming after steve or no he's not he says steve i don't know how you have to straight face the naivete of your opponent is mind blowing okay well if you guys want to debate factational as i can connect you with i'm good it's i'm gonna keep it a straight face so cas if you wanted to be logical plausible probable at these he's running his mouth out there we can arrange it i'm i'm open to it anytime anywhere one thing i'm curious would it be hip if we did a debate on outrage culture because that's a little bit more broad you know like it's it doesn't have to have that like on paper effect of like someone losing a job it's just more like the twitter like well maybe and jason rushing thanks for your question said how can we ever move past our worst moment when it is forever on page one of the google results all employers google applicants well that's a culture shift that i was trying to to advocate for the uh uncancelling the forgiveness aspect of it too uh just because if forgiveness needs to be instituted just because we need to bring that into this conversation doesn't mean we need to let go of the cancellation itself i think that uh the ability to to to render judgment as a people on the people that have power over us is an advantage that we can't give up but it's not necessarily just people that have power over us sometimes the twitter mob has power over individuals as well i mean it's not it's it's it's a two-way street when you i mean you're you're you're taking power in one aspect but you're also projecting power downwards too in a way there definitely needs to be another conversation that we can have where we can start not trying to discuss the disagreements we have but delineate the agreements that we have and try to codify some idea of what it really needs to look like with the cancellation can be if it's implemented correctly and measured and then try to spread that as an idea to the general public and last question we have this one comes in where do i see this canceled hold on let me is that oh oh over over thanks for your question said could this show modern day debate be canceled for platforming wrong think does that just mean like bad ideas that are edgy or bad or evil i wouldn't participate in that because this is a neutral channel i would guess there's like some line that we could cross i've wondered about this so for example i don't know what are the rules folks and maybe let me know in the audience what you think because you know we want to we want to do what you enjoy and if you're not going to enjoy it if you would be like ah james no but if you enjoy like a competent opponent taking on some of these people that have been banned from youtube like what would you think about that would we get in trouble i don't know what the rules are about so for example i mean we might have accidentally already done it i think eric striker might be banned from youtube i don't know if that's true but i read that somewhere and we platformed him we've had him on like last week i've reached out to nick fuentes i never hear back little nicky but uh i think it's a it's a tough line to i was just gonna say it's a tough line for you to handle there because you are trying to create a neutral platform and you do need to have divergent opinions and sometimes those opinions aren't very well held amongst uh amongst viewers or the general public i'm kind of curious let's do the like call the audience i always feel like there's what's that book like glad well wisdom of crowds i don't know if that was his book or someone else but basically what do you think folks uh would what are the odds we would get in trouble okay so james also apparently is banned from youtube and we just had him on plus he was in vosh and destiny's channel i don't think they got any strike for it so my guess is kind of like does youtube just not notice is it that we just wouldn't get you know someone seeing it or is it that i think it anybody who doesn't see the value in bringing up a bad idea and then directly uh opposing it in public to demonstrate its invalidity you're just not paying attention you have to you have to bring the bad ideas up in order to debunk them you can't just debunked the ether you know i couldn't agree more i'm like very big on because we've gotten a little heat you know we had like one or two people call for a boycott even uh is that because we've platformed some like people that would that have views that are arguably stereotypically evil and there are definitely people have platformed that i was like uncomfortable platforming and i was like it's hard to be nice to um so i've thought about this but i agree with you if you're putting competent opponents against them like what's the worry because yeah so the other thing though is yeah i mean would we get in trouble if we actually had nick flentes come on or if we get steve's uh i think he's your brother alex jones to come on like if we get those people that have been banned would i don't know if we'd get caught i don't know if i should maybe i'm already being unethical because i'm like considering breaking youtube's rules do they mean that those people are banned in the sense that they can't have a channel or that we can't even like host them like is that an exception i have no idea what is the penalty you have to you'd have to look into it a little bit further i mean as your channels grow and it's going to be more obvious it's going to be more apparent to what's going on here to youtube though i'm looking at i don't know if they would i don't know if i don't know if other debate channels have had had these issues though in the past where they put on someone that was canceled or or seen as a wrong thing on on the platform even though that there was a debate going on whether that was considered uh something that would get struck or or the platform here's an it's a logical inconsistency to say that something that is inherently of oppositional to itself like a debate when you have two different sides that you cannot be perpetuating wrong think it's already opposing the wrong think in and of itself well yeah no i mean i mean just even having the individual i mean that's that's the challenge with with all this social being nowadays even if you tacitly support even if you don't support that idea i was going to go back to that editorial even though that individual is not a member of that newspaper just because it's in the paper doesn't doesn't necessarily mean the newspaper is endorsing that idea so right i mean again that that comes back to that issue again i so someone said if you had w s on he would probably have you canceled i don't know who w s w wayland smithers i don't know who w s is uh let me know but so okay so i'm sorry guys if pardon my if you have to go to bed i'm so sorry i'm like reading try to figure this out from the live chat they're saying let's see oh okay just not on twitch teoga says that's right twitch does have more strict do they have more strict rules we're on twitch i don't know if we've ever gotten in trouble because we've had that our controversial debates go on there um dl says as a neutral quote unquote platform you are protected under section 230 unless you allow something illegal i don't know if that counts though like can we say like oh youtube i don't think we i think youtube has the right to where they can say like even if you claim you're a neutral platform it's our website and if we don't like you you're gone so i i'm not sure if that's true but i mean we could check you might have to worry about if something is illegal in another country like if uh one country has a law against a specific kind of speech that labels that speeches hate speech where it's not really hate speech here and then this show is being shown in that country they might try to contact youtube maybe i don't know touche huh oh i see so teoga says most people on the left appreciate when you have someone actually argue them not just bring them on i think she's saying oh i i think so like maybe we're okay like if we brought on like maybe james also up and it was just like hey tell us your story and like all that we might get in trouble but maybe because we have like opposition it's okay oh okay yeah i agree yeah i think that's that that's the point she's trying to make and i think that's generally what we're trying to say is welcome huh okay gotcha thank you for that and as like as long as there's not even writing one one sided opinion then you'll be fine oh first says people like factionalists will have you canceled sorry okay so thank you for our guests we just and i'll be canceled we will all be canceled everybody everybody is no everybody's a hypocrite just recognize that whoever you are you're a hypocrite i'm a hypocrite we're all scumbags let's just embrace steve but oh yeah steve i love you but i'm surprised i haven't been canceled yet but oh that's right someone said try to get stuff in malinu 14 years of being on youtube i want to debate stuff on malinu oh so bad that would be juicy um have to not like both sides so it should be fair by the way okay uh what was i gonna say we're excited folks i want to say first thanks so much for a guest these guys are awesome steve and cas you guys honestly thanks so much for coming on love getting to hear you guys tonight also thanks for letting me tease you guys it just like joke around i appreciate it because that's just that's my like my love language it's my way of like saying like hey we're we're friends we've got trust we can like make fun of each other but the other thing is want to let you know folks we are excited i am just before this debate i was sending out some emails for some monster debates so like it's been fun the last 30 days this channel has been hopping it's been super fun and i am so confident that the future is just going to get more exciting things to guys like factition no list aka cas and steve and other debates other topics it's going to keep getting better i'm very excited about it so thanks so much folks for just making this so fun and so one last thank you and reminder both of our guests i have put their links in the description what are you waiting for if you want to hear more i thought i unplugged my mic okay so thanks so much folks and with that we hope you have a great rest of your night keeps lifting with a reasonable from the unreasonable take care folks