 During these days, we found out that there is a lot of interest in the Catalonia situation, of course, and we had the chance of speaking with Raúl yesterday, but we thought that it could be interesting to have a plenary session specifically on Catalonia. So we're very happy and thankful to have Marga here. Marga, she's in the board of the Executive Board in Izquierda Unida and she's the president of the Foundation of Izquierda Unida, which is called Foundation of the Citizens for Europe or something like that. And she will try to dig a little bit into the genesis of the current situation and give us a couple of hints and political insights from the discussion that is happening around this topic in Izquierda Unida, but also personal opinions of course. So yeah, we will have like a 20-minute input and then we will have a lot of time, plenty of time for Q&As, if that's good for you. Okay, good morning everybody. Thank you very much for coming. This morning there is a demonstration all around the country in front of every city hall. It's a call made for the citizen movements demanding dialogue in Spain between the two governments, but I consider it is more important to be here to talk to you and to share with you some ideas. Not only to inform you about my personal or the left perspective on the problem with Catalonia, but also for me it will be very interesting to know your opinion also and your point of view for a problem which is something, one side is an unexpected problem. This is one of the issues we have to deal with, it's quite unexpected. In this country two years ago it was unthinkable that we are going to rise to this situation. This is a specific characteristic of the Catalonian problem. And the second one is because the next week in two days we can have the different options. One could be the declaration of the independence from the government of Catalonia or the reaction of the state who could be the to take over the autonomy of course and even there is one possibility and terrible possibility of sending the army to Catalonia. So as if the possibility of a violent confrontation is a small possibility I think, but still exists and it is there. I think for us for the left it's something really serious to confront us and to be in front of that possibility which is let me say something not very realistic because I think nobody wants it in this country to have a violent confrontation but the possibility exists and is there and it could happen the next week. Anyway so let me introduce myself and of course I'm a life person, a member of the both of this Canada Unida but also the ideas I'm going to share with you this morning about the Catalonian question is not only my personal, it's my personal opinion but it's the same opinion of Unidos Podemos, I mean it's the same opinion of Ada Colau Podemos and Escadronida we have shared this idea about how to deal with this situation which is very difficult for the left because in any moments of history I think it's all around Europe when there's two nationalism confrontation the arguments are so low, the dialogue is not possible, it's a question of feelings, it's a question of sentiments, it's quite irrational. So for the left is something that we are outside the debate, clearly the left in this country is not an agent who is actively acting in the confrontation that existed today and it's not easy to do it but anyway we are going to try it now. Let me start with some history of Spanish history because I think one of the best, the most terrible things the neoliberalism has done is to create this idea that history does not exist, that there's only one event or one moment, no, not analyzing neither the causes nor the consequences. So I know all of you saw the pictures, the images and the videos on the repression of the people in Catalonia that wanted to vote which was criminal, absolutely terrible but this moment has a history behind and has some kind of consequences so I would like to show you at least our perspective of the recent history of Spain trying to understand why this thing is like this and also who are the political actors in this actual confrontation. So Spanish history, I mean one of the ghost we have in Spain is the ghost of a civil war because we had one, as you know, a terrible one which was a very ideological one in the 30s, no, but after that we have 40 years of dictatorship, 40 years, let me insist on that, which was almost the half of the 20th century we live in a dictatorship who was based in a national Catholicism and the unity of the country. One of the basis of the Franco dictatorship was to forbidden to speak in another language except Spanish, of course denied the possibilities of different nations inside Spain, we have four nations in Spain which is Spain, Galicia, Galicia is said in English, anyway Galicia which is a small country up Portugal, the Vasconian country and the Catalonian country and this is important in order to understand the reaction of the staffer right now here in Spain because it's connected with the Franco dictatorship also and the incapability of creating a new perspective for the whole country because we have original sin which is that our democracy came from a dictatorship with no break. I mean Franco died in his bed, there was no political or social revolution and that's created a continuity between the structures of the state who was under Franco dictatorship that still existed today, some of them and of course the reproduction of the elites of the country with some of them are the same families that were under the Franco dictatorship, even Catalonian families of course mean because later we talk about the rich, the rich guys of Catalonia who was absolutely part of the system even during Franco dictatorship so this continuity between Franco dictatorship and the actual Spain is one of the reasons to understand the situation now. When Franco dies in 1975, they start a period in Spain we call the transition and as the myth of the country today is that we fail living in an dictatorship for 40 years but we did it very well in that transition so it's a consensus of the country how well we did it during the transition. This transition was made was based on something that we call the big consensus who was a deal among all the political forces including the Communist Party and this consensus creates a constitution which is the constitution of the 1978 that's the reason we call it the regime of 78 because it's based on that constitution who was based in different consensus. One of the consensus is it was to accept the existence in the country of different autonomies in different territories. Spain is almost a federal state in terms of law I mean all the we have 17 autonomous communities and it's almost a federal state believe me I mean I think there is federal state who less autonomy than there are in some territories including Catalonia but I wanted to stress this because I'm trying to show you that even in the moment in 1978 when the constitution was written the territory problem was there and there is a way how to make a consensus how can we live together inside one state and it was the creation of this almost federal state almost and the second consensus was in the mythology of that moment said that the Communist Party demanded this federal state and they say okay federal state but you have to accept the monarchy and the flag. The question of the flag is important because if you go to the street today you will see that there is different Spanish flags on the balconies this is far right all of them because in Spain the flag is a Franco flag and the left defend the republican flag which is a different one because when Franco arrives he creates a new flag and took over the republican flag flag so there was it's a flag battle now we have which is that the reason because I put it to you because the flag is related with the king and it's related with the Franco dictatorship so if you see one flag it's not innocent mostly I mean there is a nationalist perspective behind anyway so this transition was based also in the idea that the king was the saviour I mean Salvador the saviour of the country now because we have a coup d'etat in 1981 and this we suppose that the king saved the democracies things like that so these things are the myths in which our democracy is based and this myth it worked for the elites perfectly well during almost 30 years I mean there was no confrontation to this narrative or to this state of things now we have a good constitution we have a good king and we have the things going quite well the problem for them arise in two things during all this period the territory problem in Spain was the basconian country not catalonian was the basconian country who was an army group who was eta who killed in this country more than 1000 people in 30 years so all of us we thought that the problem the territorial problem in Spain was focused on the basconian country and we never thought that that happened in Catalonia we could expect it that from the Basque country but not from Catalonia which is something also unexpected no but I must insist that in all these 40 years of transition until the end of this movement which is you know the break of this consensus in 2011 the Catalonian elite who has ruled Catalonia and the same political party a right-wing party for 36 years the same political party who is demanding now the independence is the party who has ruled Catalonia for 36 years and was a party who supported clearly this consensus for 40 years was part of the consensus actually this transition was based in a two-party system the political part the popular party I mean the right-wing party and the socialist democrat and there was you know one government on another government one and another and when the right-wing party needed some support they look for the Catalonian nationalists to support the right-wing in Spain for the government of the country which is a contradiction because they have been allies for years and now there's this confrontation but let me insist that even the independence movement in Catalonia is not a right-wing movement of course not but this lead is leading by a party who is a right-wing party which is another contradiction of this story that was part of this consensus of all these years you know anyway the vast country is not let's say not defeated it's not but anyway when ETA disappeared the nationalists in the vast country was quite calm and also the nationalists in the Vasconian country is led also by a right-wing party I mean the two nationalists in Catalonia and the Vasconian are led by right-wing parties let me insist on that I had a wonderful teacher in the university the best teacher I ever had which is a teacher in history of Spain and he used to say to me that don't forget never forget that the nationalism in Spain is an ally of the right-wing party because he's confronted from some part of the elites I will tell you later it's not the situation now but traditionally that is how this nationalism was based in the industrial bourgeoisie and in the Vasconian industrial bourgeoisie also but anyway so just only to say to you that something broke with the economic crisis not only was a huge economic crisis for the working class and the popular classes in Spain but also the political this political system break also when the indignados movements arose in the May 15 of May in 2011 there was the demonstration that this system this transition this perfect system was broken from inside that it didn't work anymore and there is a lot of analysis in Europe saying that in Spain we don't have a stream right party because of the indignados movement I'm not so sure about that but anyway what is true that the indignados movement the 15M movement was a way in which a lot of people who was felt themselves as it's not only the exploitation but they don't have expectation in life because of the economic crisis I mean there was a force in which you can you know channel of your energies it was the indignado movement demanding more democracy more justice and more equality which was really fantastic and also because Podemos arise from that new movement no and the appearance of Podemos and this is one of my thesis I said to Vera the rise of Podemos is something that was absolutely unexpected from the elite also and when Podemos arrived Podemos and Ciudadanos which is another political party new political party in Spain these Ciudadanos which means citizens is a Catalonian based country ultra nationalist Spanish nationalist so Catalonian people Spanish nationalist I mean so this political party was new so Ciudadanos and Podemos arose so the consensus was break that was not based in the same political basis that was created 40 years before and the most amazing thing and this is my thesis is that Podemos won the elections in Catalonia twice I mean the general elections not the regional election of Catalonia but one we have general elections and we have two general elections there in 2015 Podemos won the elections in Catalonia and my thesis is that is one of the the the spark from the independence movement is my thesis because if I were a rich Catalonian guy who has been ruling Catalonia for 40 years a corrupted system because it's a corrupted party of course like a popular party in Spain who has everything under control the bank system because in the Catalonia the most important bank of Catalonia is one of the most important european banks which is like Asia absolutely connected with the political corrupt system in a moment that is they rule Catalonia like they host because they were always the the owners of Catalonia and suddenly another political party Podemos won the elections I will fear about the future so why not I mean to change something because they could and we hope that they will lose power in Catalonia of course in the rest of the country too but anyway this is one of my thesis is not it's not the words anyway I think that one of the spark was the the raising of Encompo Podem Encompo Podem is a coalition meaning in common we can and it's a coalition of political parties and citizens and there the leadership of Ada Colau which is a very strong leader in Catalonia in the whole country but especially in Catalonia so if I were a rich guy in Catalonia I will fear about Ada Colau or about this new movement of citizens that was created in under different basis that always ruled it in Catalonia but anyway this is my personal analysis this is not on the debate yet no okay this is the history of the politics in Spain how the transition system was breaking and the this consensus is completely broken but there is also let me insist now that there is also a class analysis of what is happening as you know in 2008 where the economic crisis appears all the countries of Europe suffer the economic crisis but in Spain we suffer it double because the economic system was based on a bubble of building houses and a financial system so that this industrialization of the country was a reality during the 90s and the beginning of the 20s and there was a fiction I mean we have I don't know but it was like the country in Europe with more black money or more people who has you know that in Spain we have the half of the 500 the half of the European was in Spain because of the black of the black money existed related to the housing are related with a financial system and the banks so when the banks I mean that was a mess so when the financial crisis arise I wrote sorry that the mess was absolutely I mean the the bubble exploded there was an unemployment rate of only 30 percent the level of impoverty of the people was very quick I mean in five four years the people lose almost 25 30 half 55 percent of the level the standards they have so it was really very quick and very disastrous and that was also affected the the sensation that the people have about the future because people was very depressed especially the young people who was that reason because they did not those movements arise now because in Spain it's quite it was easy to access the university so we have a lot of wonderfully training young people but with a labor market who only offered them to be awaited in a in a bar literally because this country only have tourism so it was a contradiction that a lot of part especially with the young people felt that there wasn't future for them went to the street creating the acknowledged movement who was also a class reaction of the economic crisis but in Catalonia was different and that is one I think important point no this nationalism in Catalonia was started at the beginning of the 20th century very related with the with the bourgeoisie bourgeoisie is in English bourgeois with the bourgeois actually when I said bourgeois you say ah this is all fashion war no no they call themselves Catalonia and bourgeois but they call it very proudly because is their national project I mean if you go to Catalonia or leave there you know that the Catalonian national project is based in the bourgeois project and they did it very proudly because it's a it was an industrial a very rich territory of Spain when there is no more industry anymore I think that is one of the reasons to explain how quick and how big the independence movement is in Catalonia and how quick it grows we have to look at this question five years ago no two years ago the level of independent people who depend on independency in Catalonia was the 17 percent 20 percent the most amazing thing is the the party who is demanding now that the independence was not an independent party 10 years ago or seven years ago so my the question for me is why so many people joined the independent movement in Catalonia in a short period of time and so immensely because almost half of the population in Catalonia I mean more than two million and a half are supporting the independence of the country so I'm an old Marxist so I try to look these things in in a class perspective no and I think one of the the the answers one of them is precisely that that in Catalonia leave the under the idea that they are a rich part of the of Spain based on an industry strong industry and in a bourgeois cultural hegemony now there is no industries anymore the economic situation in Catalonia is not very much different that all the rich part of your countries which are the press and this middle class who thought that the future was as always related to be richer and to be a professional and to be a bourgeois way of life realize that there is no that future such a future anymore so it's in a way for me this reaction to join the independent movement is a reaction of the middle class who has realized that they are not middle class anymore and there is no future for them there is no project no future there is no project that is one of the failure of the left and we don't offer clearly as Juan Carlos said yesterday and agree on that a narrative of the future for some part of our population who are suffering a lot and one of the things that they suffer is that okay I'm a very well trained person but it's impossible to find a job in that sector and more than probably the best option for you is to be awaited in a pizza bar for the richer workers of the north who come to Spain for tourism so that could be one of the reasons why the people join so emotionally the independent movement because the most amazing for me I'm an ideological person I'm a Marxist and I declare myself completely incapable of understanding the nationalist narrative there is no it's it's irrational in both sides so let me tell you my doubts which is the independent movement in Catalonia is based in two ideas I'm looking better if she agrees or not one idea is Spain doesn't love us and the second is Spain is still us because they say that they pay more taxes that they receive from the state that's all there is no more there is no more the rest for me is like we want to be free which is everybody share that we want to vote which are I defend absolutely the right to vote of course and the self-determination of course that's not a problem I don't understand and on the opposite side we have this nationalist in Spain nationalist which is based in Franco dictatorship and the main idea is the unity of the country is sacred by God no honestly the main pillar of the Franco ideology was Spain is this is real and Spain is a unity in the destiny of the universe that was written in the stone it's crazy but it's true it's it's that is the level of the of the irrationality confronting that so when you talk about the I accept perfectly well the idea of a referendum of self-determination of the Catalan people of course but when I debate we see people in Spain no no no they don't have the right to vote so why because because we have to be united in a country why and the violence is the next answer yes the violence is the next answer that is the problem of I have with this it's not a rational debate and it's very emotional and I think that this is not a wrong analysis say to you is an incomplete but it's part of the analysis so what is the scenarios we are confronting now how can we help that is the idea and on the 1st of October we saw in the TV this terrible situation with the police attacking the people who wanted to vote which was criminal really was terrible but I must say that the repression stopped at 12 or 1 because the international impact of the images of the repression so it's not a small thing that you in your countries denounce the repression and support the idea of a dialogue solution of the catalonian country because the government is it was really very affected of the international impacts of the images of the repression this is one thing because the next week as you see the day after tomorrow push them on which is the president of the catalonian state and the leader of the right wing party defending the independence ask to go to the catalonian parliament and probably he will declare unilaterally the independence of catalonia I have doubts he's going to do that because it's completely crazy because the next day Spain of course never will accept that so it's going to apply something that we call the 155 article of the constitution of the Spanish state who said that if there is some problem in some autonomy territory the state has the right to take over the administration and the government of that autonomy territory we never applied this article before but it's on the table that the government wants to apply it and I'm sure it's going to happen because we have a king in Spain anyway this king who is this and now let me say it who is the grandson of a coward who leaves the country because of the second republic he is the son of a corrupted man who was the previous king he is the the brother of a corrupted woman who is almost in jail this family lovely family who is ruling the country as the monarchy appears on tv he never appeared on tv only christmas uh yeah no it's amazing but this is true only christmas we make jokes about it i mean it's really he appears on tv very seriously and he makes a discourse to the country uh who was on my perspective a stream right discourse menacing the catalonian people with a finger menacing the people you don't have the right to be outside the spanish law and everybody understood that the king on the tv saying that is because the government is going to apply the 155 article and take over the catalonian autonomy and putting the king on the tv is one way to assign it to the international community first because i don't know why the people think that the king is something serious and no honestly but it's something that really i mean he's an idiot and with the the board bonds and it's really i mean we have a we have a sentence in the space who said that all the monarchy steals but the board bonds are especially good doing that anyway there was a reaction to the king's speech which was really a far right speech so it was the first time the king was not the king of everyone was the king of the right part of the government which maybe something our people remember later but i don't know i don't know so more than probably the the autonomy will be takeover and of course i expected that reaction on the streets because if two million people wanted to vote two million of people are going to defend the right to to vote which insist we defend that right so there is a possibility that at the end of the week more police or the army will be there nobody wants this situation there is something i really think nobody wants this situation well somebody of course but so there's some possibilities of some kind of dialogue but and let me finish with this one of these two things what is the rational solution of the situation it's something that the Spanish government doesn't want to hear about which is a legal referendum is to deal to pack a legal referendum of self-determination in Catalonia this is the most rational solution but it's not accepted by the Spanish state not it's not only the right-wing party the social democratic party is not going to accept it neither i think only one of the most and of course the nationalist we are talking about this possibility which is the only rational way of making any solution but i don't think that is going to happen soon probably in the next future and the other question is that to defeat the Catalonian in another way and let me finish this part of history with this in all this period i was where the capitalist i mean the real owners of companies because they said nothing and on the independence movement in Catalonia and i mean we know that we're against the Catalonian independence but they said nothing but two days ago they started moving and they said that they are going to leave Catalonia if the independence is declared and we're talking about this La Caixa bank which is the bank of the elite in Catalonia which is amazing the other bank with this Saradel bank is a big bank but it's also the energy companies and i am thinking it's all these companies are related with the political power in a way or in another but anyway they say they are going to leave the country because one of the things that i think that they push them on is balancing now is that if it declared the independence they expected the recognition of the Catalonian country for some European country and that is not going to happen at least now so i mean it will be really a very difficult situation especially for the Catalonian people and for the rest of us which is really a very bad very very bad situation and let me finish only with what happened in the left because the left in Spain we have different visions of what is happening in Catalonia and we don't have any division on the solution i mean all of us in Catalonia and on our side Catalonia Unidos Podemos even the trade unions or the people in Catalonia we defend the self-determination rights as a solution this is my political party with a federal solution of course a federal state based on the autonomy of the self-determination each part i mean there is a traditional proposal of the left no and there are republic of course without king without king but anyway that's uh it's important because you will see if you go to see the republican flag it's a left person who is defending that so it's that question but there is different views and i'm afraid i'm not very optimistic in the situation there is all the people of the left who have a more optimistic perspective it's not mine no there is some group of the left who think that is a good news this problem of the Catalonia because and we must to support the independence of Catalonia because if Catalonia became independence the problem created to the state the Spanish state is going to give us an opportunity you know to go to this problem and to break just a little more the transition system of the 68 no to break as we said the regime of the 78 this is one perspective different number some part of the left which has arguments i'm not agree but half arguments i mean it's not idiot because the country is so worried about that is so worried what is happening everybody's so worried that it it's going to be half so cost for the government i mean to to this situation also anyway so but they say that the conclusion is that we must to support independence movement in order to create this disruption in the natural order of things in Spain no anyway this is that's one position that of course it's connected with the left independence movement which is the coup coup is a political party or radical left in Catalonia which is an excellent party except for me because they are independent this but anyway they're excellent really you know but but there is more and let me insist on that because it is true the independence movement in Catalonia is not led by the left it's left by the right and i think it's important in terms of political analysis no but anyway so there is another people of the left in Spain who don't say that but they're completely against the idea of the independence of Catalonia completely against and belongs to the cultural currency of the rest of the country who defend the idea of the unity and this is something who thinks a lot of part of the working class in Spain that is the problem i mean the poor people popular classes a working class support the idea of the unity of the state i mean the idea of supporting the self-determination a referendum in Catalonia is something that is not a working class proposal it's a proposal from the intellectuality the intelligence here it's not you know a shared proposal uh on the street which is a problem we have anyway and there is another proposal from the left who is now the proposal defended by Ada Colau, Pablo Iglesias and Alberto Garzon and me of course because they are my bosses which is this one is that Spain the regime of the 78 is breaking down not only in Catalonia but for the rest of the country we defend the idea of the self-determination in Catalonia but under a legal referendum and equal possibilities for all the options we would like to defend a referendum in Catalonia not only independence yes or not but independence federal state or being in Spain i mean with different options and we are going to fight for that and in the rest of the insisting all the time that our option in this independence referendum in Catalonia will be no to the independence but we defend the right to be to decide the independence but we the prefer the option of not being independence because we don't think it's a good idea for the working class in Catalonia anyway that is another question so and let me finish only with this warrior have we one year ago two years ago in 2015 we had two general elections in Spain and we were one year without government we were very close to break this regime of 78 very close to break it and breaking down we had they had to repeat the elections because they went possible to create the government and things like that and during that period the corruption of the ruling party in the in the country the popular party was so amazing that they have 800 members of the right wing party the popular party in in trials i mean under the justice because of their corrupted 800 so it was a system completely corrupted the sad thing is that today nobody talks about that and nobody talks about the 25% of unemployment nobody talks about the social proposals we made the only question is the national in Catalonia in question and it's something that we really need help because we don't know how to deal with that it's impossible to open another debate except Catalonia and we as elected we are not in a good position so i'm not very optimistic really i think that everybody's playing a chess mate and it's difficult for the left to to be we are quite rational emotional too but quite rational to go in a in a debate which is not very much rational so anyway we hope that they don't declare the independence or the declared independence they said that they are going to declare it in six months that is another possibility to give six months more of negotiations we are demanding facilitators from the international uh i don't think the government will never accept that but anyway facilitators or different examples and we would really know is international pressure on the Spanish government not to send the army to Catalonia and try to find a peaceful solution anyway thank you i learned i learned a lot from marga every time i listen to her so i don't know if you have any remarks questions hi thank you so much for sharing all of the history and your perspective on it can you tell us a little bit more about what the meaningful difference would be between the current uh autonomous status and the federal state proposal that that you're speaking about that is your you know favorite outcome yeah also very thank you very much and uh i think if something breaks you you don't see it in the middle at the first step but you see it at the fronches and it sounds like me that that it's not a specific specific problem of Catalonia but a problem of Spain in it in its middle and uh it seems to me as it has something to do that Rahoy and his clique and his and his gang uh wants to be to to show strength by to to reach something something else but not it it sounds when you when you talk that it's not Catalonia it must be something else but i can't identify if you like perhaps you can say some words about this hey um thank you for your input and i would like to ask because you mentioned the interests from the president of Catalonia and the conservatives in agreeing in some um or forcing some independent movement and and i see your points but as you mentioned a majority voted for Podemos just before so there or it seems to me that a big part of the movement still has a left movement and like yesterday Raoul told us that this has this is like a hegemonic process so the the right not just had their way in interest and planned to do that all the time but they were also pressured by the people in Catalonia also from left side um to agree in some kind of um things in that the movement not only want to um yeah to be independent but also to have a new constitution in itself and i think one of the reasons why Podemos gained so much popularity also was because they criticized the constitution in general and all the Franco system continuing in Spain and so i i am asking myself um to turn this um the image of national conflict in this um the only way for me is to say this is uh um in Catalonia this is not a conflict of Catalonia but it's the conflict for all of Spain it's a conflict for it's a fight for democracy in all of the state and i was interested in how um how the left in the rest of Spain because there were some demonstrations i think about um Catalonia um no esta sola or something like that and if you could talk about the um yeah the left movement from below who is trying to gain more um yeah impact in all this yeah thank you for um your input um my question goes exactly in the same direction i um also find most convincing the um federal's um resolution that you federal solution that you um proposed and that Iskia da Unida proposes but i um found it not very convincing your argument that the movement in Catalonia is led by the right i would like to hear more arguments on that because um that there is a regional government from the right is from a Marxist-Gramsian analysis in fact like not really an argument that a movement is led by this there is it it's about hegemony what the people want um what the um what the aims of the movement are and i think there is a lot of social um demands in it and it's also crucial for the left to address these social demands and my second question is also in the direction of what Ronda said um how do you think are the possibilities to mobilize in other parts of Spain um for a federal solution that is linked with social demands because i also think it's absolutely necessary to shift um the the conflict away from the only from the national question to like a social question let me start from from from the from the last two interventions no yeah the independence movement as i said is a transversal uh movement uh i mean there is people from different class social classes yes yeah and different interests also yeah yeah but let me insist i mean it's a democratic movement demanding the right to be independent full stop there is no political contents there is of course part of the movement who want more social things or but there is other parts of the movement who doesn't want it and i'm going to be really because it's important for me to say the movement is a massive movement in Catalonia and of course there is a lot of left movements who support the idea of democratic right to vote absolutely that is clear and of course it's always led by the left people the demanding of the democratic right to vote but at this very moment the two leading political parties who has the role of lead the independence movement in Catalonia are right wing parties and the speaker of the independent movement in Catalonia is not a left person and it's something that i know is quite contradictory it is real it is as it is so what our people our people the left two people in Catalonia said what we want to do they said in Catalonia left people said what we want to do is to break the hegemony of the right wings inside the independence movement and i say okay i mean that's fine but they want to break it because they don't have it i mean when the parliament of the Catalonia approves the this referendum except the coup which is a wonderful but small political party the rest of the left political forces vote against abstention sorry that was not in favor of this referendum because was led by the right wing party and the conditions that this they know that there was not democratic conditions so it's something that i think we must to talk more about with the in the left movements in Catalonia because my worry is that of course the left people is over the most solidarity people and is the first people going confronting the police and is the people who is more solidarity defending the the ballot boxes and if the most solidarity people defending the people who is attacking by the police it's not the rich people it's our people who is defending that so i think we need to also of course to help to bring and to win the hegemony inside the independence movement but it is not today that's my opinion i think it's a fact that which is not easy to deal i mean i would love that it will be a socialist movement in independent in Catalonia i will be independent too i mean if that's happened but it's not the case really it is not but anyway uh as you said it's a democratic movement they tend to move in it's a democratic movement demanding the independence of Catalonia there is no one word about the kind of Catalonia there is no one word about social rights there is no one word about labor rights it's amazing how irrational it is it's just only one to be independent full stop i think it's a reaction against the the situation or how is the situation dealing but the problem is if some movement is led by the one-wing party there is no arguments even there is argument for the independence but there is not on the table by the speaker of the movement it's just only that what they have is that is my personal my personal opinion and of course there is a solidarity movement inside the rest of the country with the people in Catalonia which was Catalonia Nostasola i mean Catalonia you are not alone we went there to the portal Sola was there where there was a lot of people there are two young people especially because precisely of the repression in Catalonia and i think we have to strengthen the solidarity movement that this is one of our tasks and i hope the demonstrations today i don't know if they will be big or not but i hope it's going to be well also demanding a peaceful solution a peaceful solution on on the situation and only two words more about the federalism it's not a scared on your proposal it is a scared on your proposal but federalism in Spain has a long tradition because this territory a problem we have it for centuries so the first time that the federalism was a solution was in the 19th century i think on the start this proposal actually the social democrats party party socialista obrero espanol is supposed to be also defending federalism as a solution for the territorial problem in Spain the the the only request of this federalism which is of course the 17 different federal states that have to be a referendum if they want to be part of not of the federal estate i mean that's had to be based on the voluntary basis of course and it's a it's a system that we propose in sometimes very similar to germany in terms of you know taxes the different parliaments things like that but anyway we have it now i mean these 17 territories in spain have their own parliaments they can make a lot of laws i mean there is a it's a decentralized country health justice education is ruled by the territory it's not but the national state and the taxes is one third for the autonomies and one third for the state but the problem i think is that there is another nature why we think that the federalism is the is the right answer but and unfortunately is a minority of the population who is thinking in that solution today i think it's i think yeah yeah it's very similar it's almost a federal estate spain with no much more autonomy for the for the region specifically in taxes and capacity of of dealing with the taxes because i mean what what keep spain not being a federal estate is that we have a unique box of the social security we call it like that no there's one ministry and the taxes are ruled only by the ministry not by the but the autonomies but in terms of politics is to have more autonomy of course and to really a new constitution of the country in terms of guarantee those rights and who was going to rule that right it's like another federal system but it has to be based on the voluntary basis that is the main difference with the autonomy now that is not an imposed system but a system that has to be created by the federal states who like daniel and steve and and then i think like if you want to raise a question or a comment do it now because we don't have that much more time so i'm going to connect collect a couple of your comments and questions and then give back to marga i totally see your point on the catalan bourgeoisie and their leadership in the in the independence question but i don't see why the people taking to the streets are irrational in their in their claims i think there has to be a reason why dog workers are blocking the police i think there's a reason why farmers are blocking the streets and and so on and so on and i think as far as i am informed the catalan assembly has also made a few good points against austerity pro-refugee things and stuff like that and i wouldn't totally denounce that i think that that also plays a vital role right now and i would be interested interested what you have to say about that you said the two main parties in catalonia are right wing but the erc is isn't it more like a social democratic party and if we see the laws they brought in it's not like a right wing government we have in spain so it's i guess it's too easy to say the leadership of the movement is right wing and the leadership of the government is right wing when we have a strong social democratic democratic to left wing bloc who is supporting the movement and could you answer why you say it's a right wing if there are so much parts in it who aren't right wing and the other question also if it has a right wing leadership when i saw the videos the from the protest there were left wing slogans on the streets and there were left wing answers to the police brutality so there's a left wing base and the declaration of a free state self-determination is a left wing case it's why shouldn't we support it if there can be a base to build a new more left wing state so at first thank you very much i think it's very important we talked the last days a lot about this question and we had no solution we only had question marks and very important to hear the spanish view because we've got in germany a very different narratives so i'm gonna show now three three points at first the basque question so the ita gave up the weapons because they said okay now we have a europe we don't want to be in spain but we want to be in europe so and now euro is coming so we don't have to fight for independence and so no one thought it could be an issue in katalunya the second is about the king the information in germany is not the king of spain accepted the democracy but he built the democracy because it's a tale that franko wanted back the king and the king waited until franko is dead and the king wanted the democracy that's the narrative in germany and the question of katalunya is for the leftists in germany very important because the narrative is the katalan identity is connected with the left wing identity if you look back to the thirties to the second republic that the narrative is katalunya always have been very very left anarchist or socialist so because of that is for us important and new to hear that it's a leaded or it's a strong right wing movement in the independent movement there's definitely seems to be a lot of questions about the nature of the the independence movement left versus right and maybe this is a asking that question from a different angle but the thing that i didn't hear from your presentation that i would be curious to know more about is what changed with this relationship that had sort of always existed between the pp and the right wing katalan nationalists that there was this level of collaboration and support and then suddenly it wasn't there what changed on the ground was it pressure from below that caused that they had to address this or was there some the deal somehow fell apart because somebody wasn't getting paid or was it just two very strong male egos fighting it out and it's all personality okay since i'm coming from former egos lavia this situation somehow resembles our situation as well that we had during the 90s and i have to remind you that nothing left wing happened after the wars and after the breakup of egos lavia that's what we have to have in mind what i have to say follows on from that in a way and it's really to question your your kind of acceptance of self-determination as if it was a kind of simple principle and i don't think it is a simple principle i actually think that you know there's always the problem of identification you know of what is the question and what is the boundary or you know who should vote and and actually i think it relates to the kind of concept of nation and i think someone said yesterday that a nation may be a human construct but it's also real and it's true that it's real but it's also contested and people have multiple identities and they're complex and and the idea of self-determination it seems to me was was invented by an american president and imposed by an american president who didn't understand the complexities of of national identity in in europe and you know former egos lavia is obviously a good example and and so i don't know how much that helps but i think because it you know i just think that that you know your acceptance of self-determinations a principle is is i think questionable and maybe that makes resolving the problem more difficult but also i think it it underlines that really this is a this is a problem to which there should be a negotiated solution and it may be difficult because of the emotions and lack of rationality involved but it should be negotiated okay let me come back again only with the question of the of the political character of the independence movement it's a massive movement in katalonia let me insist on that but the question is not that my question is why five years ago does not exist and now is so massive what is behind the necessity of people going to the streets demand a more democracy and my personal answer is that as we debate in this summer school is that the globalization has winners and losers and the working class of the south of europe we are the losers of the globalization there's no future for our people under the material conditions that actually neoliberalism is imposing in spain the people is needed to find an identity the precariousness i mean the way the working class is completely automatized take out the possibility of a class identity and it's very uh logical to understand that if you don't have anything nothing who protect you fear to the future there is no middle class dream as i told you that was the katalonia narrative there is nothing anymore why not to try to have an identity based on the nation really honestly i don't have a concrete answer but i think on that every day because it's amazing that's the reason because i deny the left political character of the movement as a whole of course there are left people inside of course and of course the left people is that first people going confronting the police that's reason because we saw them in the in the pictures i will go to defend the people even if i'm not agree with independence of course i will but that is not letting me insist on that and emancipation of the class of the poor of the working class inside the independence movement in katalonia today that is not and let me insist on that very clearly because it will be lovely to have a social revolution in katalonia and to be clear that they are my people and we have to support them because the social revolution is there but it is not the case maybe we can help that to happen to support in the left in katalonia of course that is our task too and there's left in all all the territories but i would like to insist on that because i'm afraid and you know what is my worry my worry is that this movement is negotiated led by the right-wing people but the people who is going to confront with the army if the spanish government send the army there is the left and most solidarity people but who negotiating in in our name is other guys that's my worry because i insist on that all the time and of course we have i insist talk with the independence talk with the coup in katalonia support adacolau movement i think adacolau has the best position in katalonia and she has the moral values to be defending the right to vote and against the independency and of course she's confronting the president of katalonia all the time there's a wonderful speech adacolau made but i love it when the president of katalonia which is a bourgeois guy asked to the to the disobedient the katalonia people has to be disobedient with the state adacolau took the floor and to say now we are coming here to tell me to be disobedient i was confronting the police putting my body to stop eviction and you send the police to pick me up when we ask the left ask for disobedient to defend social health education we put our bodies let me insist to the huge eviction movement to katalonia adacolau was there this guy was in front of us so she was like that very very enraged to say because this guy said that adacolau was a traitor she's great i mean she's a fan and a fanatic of adacolau really i like it very much but i think she knows exactly she has this position and and i think helping her and go move for them the cope also of course they left independence people so they're excellent i mean some of them are very good friends are excellent and they have this analysis which is uh we are not in the hegemony of the movement that we are going to have so let's start with katalonia and then we in spain which has arguments of course they have i mean as i told you before but my personal sensation is not so optimistic that that's only and of course the the shadow of Yugoslavia is is there is there anyway thank you very much for your contributions