 Welcome everybody to get another crisis conversation live from the better life lab live from my home office where I'm socially distancing like everyone else. And you know we created these conversations to create space for all of us to come together to try to understand as fast moving crazy crisis that's really upending how we work and live and gender equality and social policy. And now we're actually trying to figure out not only go understand it as we go. But what are we learning while we're in the middle of it because this is going on for some time. And how can we emerge better. So today we're going to be talking about remote work. I am thrilled to have all of the people that we've got here to to share their stories and their expertise. We'd love to hear from you and your stories if you've got questions. I'm going to pitch them to Cali and to he joined because I'm not sure that I've got them so let me start with you Cali. I got an email from a friend of mine this morning she said I'm really looking forward to this this conversation because I'm still in my pajamas my back hurts because I had a crappy chair yesterday. You know, I know I read I researched a lot about remote and flexible work, and I'm doing everything wrong. So, you know the seven weeks in what's it tell us about like what are you hearing you're trying to work with people. This is harder than we, then people tend to think oh remote work it's easy you got a phone and a computer and off you go this is tough. And hearing Bridget is a couple things first we were thrown into the flexible and remote work deep end overnight. And as I like to say to people if you do this the right way. You have a whole pre pre work where you're looking at how things are going your training people you're giving them chance to practice then you're giving them a chance to review and then you're helping them even close any gaps like it's a very thoughtful, organized process and there is a pilot in that process everybody was thrown into private pilot together overnight training. There was nothing there was no readiness building like you're just in it. Okay, so I think what we're finding is, oh and happened in a crisis I'm sorry I should have added that right where we were afraid to go. Yeah, so one thing that I am hearing is people are surprised at how well it's going. Honestly, I think I have leaders who were just like, I got to tell you, if you asked me beforehand, if these jobs could be done remotely I would have told you no way and I am shocked at how people are being able to adapt and are doing what they're doing. Now, are they as productive as they were being before have they figured out exactly how to switch up the work processes and the workflow so that people are able to get their jobs done as maybe fluidly as they were. No, but that is coming along. But again I think there's an awareness and openness and I think people being impressed that we're able to kind of keep things going. Now that being said, obviously there are a whole group of people who can't necessarily work remotely. And that's why we have to kind of stop talking just about remote work. I think we have to add flexible work into that because there is an ability to be flexible with time and with teaming and that we can put in place and with those jobs that are maybe not able to be done remotely but can still keep people safe and allow an organization to operate again, perhaps not optimally right way they can keep the business going. So I want to go to Katie next so beyond that Katie because she's got one of those jobs that you didn't think you could ever do remotely. But Kelly, one of the things that I didn't do was introduce you because you know I'm having I'm having one of those days you know I'm I'm lucky not to be in my business right now. So, introduce yourself and one of the things I would like you to do before we go to Katie is talk about, you know, when we first started talking, you've been doing, you've been helping people do remote and flexible work for a long time and there was a there's been a lot of resistance to it so tell us who you are, why you're an expert, and then kind of how we got here and then we're going to switch to Katie real quick. Okay, so long story very short, my name is Kelly Williams Yoast. I am the CEO and founder of the flex strategy group and we are flexible workplace strategist we go and we help leaders reimagine how when and where work can be done, and build cultures of high performance flexibility. I have been doing this work for almost 25 years it's a very long time I've seen it. I've seen every single iteration and evolution of it. The resistance has come from just cultural entrenched culturally entrenched ideas about the way work needs to be done. And I have been very blessed over the years to work with truly visionary leaders who for a variety of reasons just saw that they needed to rethink their business model, whether it was their ability to attract and retain the best talent or to be the most productive or to just be able to leverage their resources more effectively. They saw the need to make that change happen. And once they were able to make that commitment and they understood that it was a culture shift it was about giving people a new set of skills a new way of thinking a new way of planning a new way of coordinating. Actually it's amazing what happens the the increase in productivity and engagement in the ability to get keep and retain the best people are attracting retain the best people really does increase and my hope with all of this is that this awareness that has come from this overnight pilot that we're all in is that leaders then see you know what I'm going to take it to the next level and I am going to do the work to actually shift this culture permanently and not only come through this crisis, but actually come through it in position to actually thrive. So I'm hopeful to do. I am as well. I think we all are so and he generally will be able to address some of that. But first let's go to Katie. So Katie, Cleveland, we just met this morning we have amazingly bizarre, you know, a small world close friends. You are a high school science teacher. Now talk about a job that you would never imagine could be done remotely. Tell us about tell us about what you're experiencing and you're joining us from Colorado right. Correct. Hi, thanks for having Bridget. Yes, I'm Katie Marie Cleveland, and I am a high school science teacher. It's my 35th year and never in my wildest dreams would I think that I would be teaching students remotely. So how is it. Yeah, how's it going and a learning curve for me. To say the least. I was, when we came back from spring break my plan was to do gas loss for chemistry for example, and I had liquid nitrogen ordered and can crush and all kinds of fun activities for the kids to do to learn the different types of gas laws. And now we're doing it remotely so it's changed things a lot. You know and what about just even in terms of your own, you know your own life, you know, a lot of times people I think Bloomberg just had a piece that came out today that said people's work. Their days are 12 to 15 hour days it's hard to know when to turn off. There are no boundaries anymore what's what's that like now for you. That is definitely true. My days have been extremely long, partly because instead of teaching a class of 34 students all at one time. Each student, many students will send me emails how do I do Charles law or what. How do I change pressure from millimeters of mercury to ATMs or something like that. So I'll go through an email and try to help them out and explain it and stuff sometimes I'll do FaceTime with the students. Every week I do a zoom to try to go over practice problems but instead of just one class of doing it it's multiple multiple times and then some kids can't get through on the internet. So I'll just pull up the video that I had made I've, I've become really, really good at doing YouTube videos concepts, because I need to show them the steps of how to do these so I've made quite a few YouTube videos. Yeah, that's amazing. You know, so, you know, Cali the point that you were making is that we are, you know, we're all thrown into this pilot, you know, and we're all kind of like figuring it out as we go and that our hope is that there are things that we can, we can learn from this you talked about the resistance. So he John let me turn it over to you and I'm going to let you introduce yourself and I'm sorry I've been bad about that today. And like I say I'm having a day so I'm not doing so hot myself today. So he John, you know, you've done an awful lot of really excellent work and you know if you can see in the chat, we're posting some links about remote work. You know, some tips as well as to ways to understand it and I'm hoping that we're going to get to some tips because I could so use them today. But he John, you know we talked about things that we can learn and that there's been this resistance. And it's pretty clear that the, you know, the resistance to flexible and remote work has really disadvantaged women over time and you've looked a lot at remote and flexible work and gender and what are you thinking that we're going to be learning through this pilot as Cali says. Okay, so first of all, I'm, I'm he John, John, I'm reader will associate professor in sociology and social policy at the university Kent in the UK, so six o'clock right now for me. And so, I mean, a lot of the things that I've done over the years that I was principal investigator for a project called work autonomy flexibility and work life balance which we look at the positive and the negative consequences some of it the unintended consequences of flexible working including working from home. And I say that, you know, again, a lot of people without any preparation have been kind of pushed into the situation and one thing that hasn't been mentioned is that the schools are shut childcare is shut, as well as a lot of the things that enabled women to be able to actually go into the labor market, have been completely called back so a lot of women were able to actually work from going to the labor market in full time work, only because there are, you know, childcare facilities schools after school clubs and then you know what we consider like a network of care as well as outsourcing of housework that we relied very heavily on, including going to you know, going to meals out, but also, you know, like cleaners for a lot of middle class families, etc. And that's all been dismantled in the situation that we're in. So, on one hand, it's amazing that actually so many people are able to carry out a lot of the work that we initially thought was impossible to do at home. Yeah, at home. And we also see that it's actually some of the jobs that you know again, a lot of people employers if you ask them they always say this type of job doesn't allow for working from home is actually being done in a relatively good way in a very productive way. The thing that I worry slightly about is whether what kind of expectations employers and managers have because if you were to try to compare the productivity and the amount of work people are able to do compared to like when they were in the office I think this is a really bad time to compare it like that because everybody's you know we're in groups, you know, grieving, we're in a really, we're in a crisis and pandemic where things are not normal for anybody to do even remotely close to what they were doing in the office and normal circumstances at home at the moment is is beyond what you know employers should be expecting at the moment because the right comparison shouldn't be what we were doing in the office but the comparisons would have been that no one would have been able to do anything at all. If you were to if this pandemic was done it was in the 1990s for example, majority of us would not have been able to do the kind of work that we're doing now. So let me go back to you. Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah, finish finish your point and then I want to go back to Cali because of your you've been working with some people who have have been experiencing some of that it sounds like so he jumps. What was the point that you wanted to make. Oh, right. Yes, and everything there's like I was just going to talk about somebody somebody like positive but also the negative side that it's great that we're working but also you know what is the worries I have is that a lot of people trying to do as much as they were doing in the office are doing very boundary work where you're ending up putting in very long hours all the time and not being able to have your private home time or like your family time because you feel like oh I was just kind of going to because your work sphere and your family sphere or your private family sphere has been very much blurred and I see especially women with care responsibilities feeling a very high level of conflict because they feel like they're not able to do neither of the kind of roles that they feel like they are meant to fulfill. Katie I want to go to you Kelly but Katie I see you nodding and you are you also. You know on the other end of the of the spectrum you brought your mother home to live with you you took her out of independent care so that's another stress that you've now got in your life as well. Yes, it is but I'm so grateful that she's here. She would have been in seclusion in her room at the place where she was living and that would not be good for her mental health at all. Yeah, yeah. So like you're saying that we're this isn't sort of a, you know, business as usual we've got so many other things that we're trying to juggle. So Callie you've been working with people and you had a story that you were going to share somebody who might have been a little skeptical. But then is sort of seeing that this is even in these emergency and crisis situations is possible so can you tell us a little bit more about some of the people you're working with. There's an interesting story I was telling Bridget unfortunately this person was not comfortable enough to come on today but she is what I like to call a long time prospect of mine she's been sort of interested in my work for a while but she would admit she is a dinosaur and how she runs her department she runs a department of 450 people and a larger service organization. She's been intrigued but has never really been able to make take the steps to make change happen. So this comes along and she reached out to me recently and she said, I have to tell you she's one of the leaders is like I am shocked. And she's followed the principles, because I've been talking about the principles of reimagining work and life in crisis. And they're very specific it's you have to keep it simple. You have to start where you are it's about intention and not perfection. You have to prioritize, communicate and recalibrate and then do it again, and then do it again, and then do it again. And then you have to leverage that learning. So she started doing that. And, you know, she has been really smart in that she's communicated that they don't have the same performance expectations on that everybody needs to fulfill she said but she's been again surprised how people have been able to step up. They have taken on other work from another department actually because people had some open space in their in their schedules. They've been very understanding of the caregiving responsibilities that people have and I think that goes to the communication. There's a lot more open communication amongst managers and employees about okay so here's my reality. And this is how I'm intentionally trying to work in this period of time but this is when I have to be with my kids. I'm available. There's just a lot more coordination and collaboration and and a clarity in terms of the protocol of communication. You know, leveraging the technology that they had. It's interesting. I feel like they're all these organizations that were transitioning to Microsoft team at the beginning of the year. And now they're diving in and they're using like all the components of Microsoft team that perhaps they hadn't used before so again I think that we're going to come out on this on the other side and I love your story Katie because would you have ever stopped and taken the time to learn how to do Zoom, I mean YouTube videos to do your classes you never would have done that and you might not use that as your primary way of teaching going forward to think about these young people they love stuff like that they love being on social media and maybe from now on you'll do a few YouTube videos and throw it out there to the class. And again it's just opening our minds about how we can work differently. Now is it perfect, it is not and that's why it is intention not perfection. We have we're all BBC dad now which I love that phrase. Yeah right. You know what, I, my husband took my senile dog who is not doing well with all of this out of the out of the house because otherwise she would have sat here and barked at me the whole time because that's what she does. And he just kind of have to roll with it. Yeah, we're all making we're doing our best and we're going to keep getting better and better and better and that's where the prioritization. Then the communication and then the recalibration is just going to get a little bit better and a little bit better. And ultimately I think we're going to be in a good place where we're going to keep things going and I loved what he's even said, if this were the 90s we wouldn't be doing anything. Okay, so if that's our bar that between we're doing nothing and now we're basically keeping it moving. That's a lot. And so I'm just going to keep building on that. You know, what I'd love to do is, you know, go go back to you Katie. You know, so you were saying that before this you had never really used zoom and now you're, you know, you've never made a video and now you are. What are some things that you think you could take forward with you I'd like to talk to all of you about sort of like where we move forward with this and then I do want to end with like, Okay, but what do we do now and how do we figure out how to keep every day not feeling like Groundhog Day Tuesday with no boundaries but you know how do I how do I you know get out of my yoga pants one of these days but but Katie what have you learned and what do you think how do you think that's going to change what you do in the future. One of the benefits I think one of the things I learned is how to make little videos short little videos showing clips to students of how to make organic compounds for example or how to do Charles law for example, and I have those little videos now so if I do have a student who's absent or sick or for some reason that school, I have those that I've uploaded to YouTube, so I can use this as reference so I've thought it's been a really beneficial. And then also Kelly, I wanted to say something you talked about communicating as part of this. And there was a science department meeting that was earlier this morning but that's the time that I get my mom up and help her to bathe and get dressed and get ready for the day and I was not able to make that and simply communicating with my coordinator, you know was so great because then we met separately after that when there was a time so I think people have been much more flexible. I think that's been a good positive thing for me is the communication of videos and things. I do worry a little bit about all the support systems that we have at schools, because we really do support kids in so many different ways. I mean, a library for example, or my special needs kids that need additional supports, the mental health piece, the nurses, even kids being involved in clubs and sports and activities national society. All those things help those kids study groups that I have for for biology or chemistry. So those pieces of school were not able to do right now and so I think all of us teachers are trying our best to provide those extra supports where it was other people who did it before. Right. Yeah, absolutely. The mental health piece is something that I am very worried about in particular some specific students and this is hard for them. They don't understand it. We as adults don't understand it. I can't really expect, you know, 15 16 year olds to necessarily understand as well. So that piece I am concerned about. I know my district is doing a lot to help our students. I'm sure everyone else is too. Yeah, you know, we've got a question. So we go to Linda, do you have a question and a comment that you wanted to add. Yeah, thank you for so much and really enjoying the conversation. I was kind of thinking more about when he was speaking about day cares and schools. There was a recent article by Bloomberg that came out basically stating that American working parents want to be back in the office that they're working on average three hours longer. And when some of my fellow colleagues shared it with me, my question to them was, is it that we want to work return to the office, or is it that we working parents want to continue working remotely, just with open day cares and schools, because I think that this that article could totally be used for to always be in the office together that's the most productive way. So just wanted to kind of make that comment out there and also hear thoughts on that article. Thank you. Yeah, he done. Oh yeah, I mean, I agree with you. I think it's not that we want to be in the office per se, but it's just that being able to have a dedicated time and space just to do work and not worry about family and all sorts of the housework and etc. Is what people are, I think, want to do. And again, you know, what we need to see is that a lot of people are struggling, you know, additional housework, additional care, additional, not just childcare, but also, you know, elderly care and care for family and friends that might be vulnerable at this point. But I want to get it on your point, Bridget, going forward, but one of the great things about this whole blurring that happened, which is really, you know, induces a lot of kind of conflict, the feelings of conflict between work and family life. But it's just that the idea that we are all BBC dad is that I think our employers have to see many of us in the context of family and the, you know, us outside of work because there was no other way but to. And I'm hoping that that kind of conversations but being able to see that person more holistically in the context of families and all the other demands that they're facing may open up new conversations in the future about what makes, you know, workers battle workers right. And it's not just for now, but also in the future. And yeah, just wanted to have that. So that that whole the notion that the ideal worker doesn't have any caregiving responsibilities I mean I was always struck by this one survey that was done that like CEOs and C suite managers around the world and they said who's the ideal worker, and more than three people said someone with no caregiving responsibilities. Well that is absolutely no women and right now like Kelly as you said we're all BBC dad that's very few people you've either got childcare responsibilities or like Katie you got your, you know, elder care responsibilities we all have some kind of care. So, so Cali what do you what do you think do you think that this is also something that could help people bring a more, I guess, authentic sense of themselves to work in the future do you think that managers will kind of shift their view of who an ideal worker is. Well I think it's showing the it's we're witnessing the real time destruction of the artificial boundary between work and life I mean it's just gone because think about it right now you're now seeing I'm seeing Bridget's office I love Bridget's I'm wondering like what are those pictures and I'm looking at beautiful bugs I'm like where are those mugs from looking at you and I'm like you're in England oh how cool is that I love England like right like I'm thinking about these things in the back of my head. And you know it's you're seeing people for their whole lives and I know David the producer of this podcast, I wanted to ask him like you obviously played violin David. So, this is a good thing, I think it is a very good thing I think it's going to be very hard to put that genie back in the bottle I think we are all enjoying that on some level it is definitely difficult and I am not minimizing the unusual challenges that parents and caregivers and just even just the grocery store is so hard. Okay, so this is unusual and that will pass and I think that's where I want to talk about where we're going to go. Okay, it could take two years it could take 18 months, we're ultimately going to get beyond this. Now we have to start to think about the next phase okay so we get past this very extreme safe at home period, then we start to begin the evolution where it becomes a hybrid on site remote work dialing it down dialing it up depending upon what's going on with the virus. And that's really the next phase so if there was an article in the Washington Post by Jenna McGregor who I think says a great job of covering the workplace and she started to talk about what that's going to look like and you can see already companies are saying they have to keep all the desks further apart and they have to have people stagger their time coming in and well that means you are actually not going to be able to be able to have everybody on site you're just not. Then you also have the fact that schools and camps are not going to be open probably until the fall. So you're going to have to accommodate the fact that you can't get everybody on site, and you have to have the accommodate the fact that the caregiving is just not going to be there. So I think the next thing we have to move into is how do we create that culture of flexibility what are the tools that people that managers need to manage. How are the skills and tools that teams need to coordinate with each other in this way. What are the skills and tools that individuals need to put those good boundaries up so that they aren't just working all the time. Yeah, how to do that so we're all kind of doing this in real time. And I think the next phase when things calm down a little bit it's less intense and we're less scared perhaps we can begin to say what are those skills and tools what is that framework of operation. It's not enough to give people a platform I'm getting a little nervous that we're talking a lot about technology and technology is a tool. Technology is not the way we need to work. So that's the next phase what is it how do we have to work and how do we have to make this happen together. Yeah, so we're coming down on time. Oh yeah, so I was going to bring in Rajiv. Are you, you made a really great point in the chat so we'll have Rajiv, and then he down will go to you the thought that you had so so hold on to that so Rajiv would love to hear from you. Hi, Bridget. Hi, Kelly. The question I had was just have noticing I've been working independently for so long just second nature but I notice more and more people sort of thrown into this overnight they discover after a few weeks that they're missing those really tiny human interactions, the water cooler conversations, everything online is always very formal. And so how do we mitigate that and I wonder if you know Kelly and he John with their work have come up with tips and techniques for people to do. First, hi Raj. It's nice to see you. So I love that question, because I do think while we're in this phase where it's the safe at home where we're mostly remote you really have to be much more intentional about how you're having some of those moments. Now I'm an extreme extrovert so I have to tell you I've talked to other extroverts who actually have just gone on like zoom have zoom open and are just working together like they're not even like talking or just like hey you know and that works. Okay, you can also have slack open and just be connecting people with slack if you're okay with the technology but start with where you are don't start adopting all sorts of new ways to communicate you can even just pick up the phone and call people. However, this is this next phase that we go into. That's why people ask me are we all going remote. I don't think so. I think people still do want to be together but it'll have to be in a very intentional way. In the workplace not full time I don't think it'll be that hybrid model again, but in the meantime be creative about how you are intentionally connecting with people to have those moments because Raj you're right. People. Absolutely. Let's give you the let's give you the last word here. All right. Okay, just on Raj's point like what we you know we stop WhatsApp as well just as a casual conversation at Hawke with some of my colleagues which in a larger company setting but my husband who works in a smaller company they just have, even when they were working in the office because they had different offices with software engineers in different locations they just always had a chat going and all sorts of things happening there. But one of the things I want to mention about when we kind of go back what's going to happen was what's kind of the next steps. I think we need to be worried. I mean that to be very cautious but especially employers is that what I've noticed is that I mean we still need more data on this but a lot of the caregiving work a lot of the additional house of work burden have been falling on women and also because employers in a way assume that will be falling on women. I've heard stories about some women not being given the opportunity to work from home. I've heard a lot of those stories in the previous time before COVID where that was one of the biggest reasons why employers especially female dominated workplaces but also women work from home even when their male counterparts were given the same opportunity. Now due to this COVID virus a lot of people were given the opportunity and I'm hoping that the employers now can see actually give women the opportunity to work from home so that they could actually manage. But what happens is employers don't see men and fathers not the fathers but men with all sorts of other families and friends who might need that kind of care not as carers is that they don't give the people opportunities to have those discussions or have that kind of reshaping their works to fulfill it even if they want to if their employers don't ever give them the opportunity they'll end up kind of shifting that burden onto their female spouses and a lot of the women having had that double burden or triple burden if you even consider the emotional kind of labor of having to worry about family members and worry about your children's well being they're going to be really not only conflicted but they might have to withdraw a lot of their labor market kind of activities the longer this goes the longer this bulk school closure and the COVID virus goes on and it is a bit of a worry so again the key thing is that both men but also employers need to respond that that kind of responsibilities have to lie with both men and women. Absolutely and that is a great way to to end this conversation that I think that's a really important point that workplace as a managers need to expect that as Kelly said we are all the people that we see dead and we all have caregiving and that when we have workplace expectations that understand that in value care that's when we can you know one potential really great opportunity to have real gender equality out of this in a really real way. So I want to thank Katie and he Jung and Kelly for for joining me today and having this great conversation. I want to thank all of the participants with your great quotes and comments and perspective. I do have some remote resources that will be sending out Cali I want to hear your principles and I want to learn them so we can get them from you will share those out as well. I also want to thank my better life lab team the new America events team, my producer David Shulman everybody's great thank you so much for helping me put this together. This week we're going to be talking about childcare and the crowd childcare in the time of Corona. So we hope that you all will join us again and thank you all wash your hands and stay safe and we'll get through this right.