 We'll take it from there. So We are here today at the Fairmont Hotel in Toronto. It is the 25th of August 2015 We are about to interview Fadi Habashi and the interviewer as usual will be William McCrack So first question, could you simply state your full name? My name is Fadi Habashi and In the coming October, I will be 87 87 and where were you born? I was born in Minya about 250 kilometers South of Cairo in Egypt. And what what was your Lifelike as a child, what did you do? What were your interests as a child? I I was one of reading books on of travelers. I Learned as a young at a young age from elder brothers How to play chess cards and trick-tack In secondary school, I learned badminton and ping-pong In Minya. I used to take to make excursions with friends To the mountains on the eastern side of the night in college. I learned swimming And what and at any point where you were interested in sciences or What was soon going to be your your future career? Did you have a yeah? I liked chemistry and geography very much. Okay. I read books on history of science. I Did not know about methodology When I was in college, I learned dance music and classical music And As a child, what did your parents do? Did they have any link to science? No, my father was a lawyer in Minya okay, and Could you tell me about your education? My primary and secondary education were in Minya. I Went to University of Cairo in the chemical engineering department from 1945 to 1949 then The University of Alexandria as a part-time postgraduate student from 54 to 56 I Then left to Austria Where I got scholarship at the Technician of Schubert, which is called now University of Technology in Vienna from 1956 to 1959 and what was the exact program of study? I was studying Inorganic chemical technology Okay, and and why that's why did you choose in organic? Because I got scholarship in the University of Technology on this field Okay, so because of the scholarship it made you yes to choose and I See Actually, we'll go to you first. We'll go your first job After school. What would you consider being your first official job? I worked in the fertilizer factory in Suez This was my first job and this was the Very good chemical engineering job It was built by the Chemical Construction Corporation in New York And we were producing ammonia and nitric acid and calcium nitrate and Did you early on did you have any whether any mentors or people who really kind of Made you enjoy the field or strive in the field Not really what I would say At that time no mentors, but I came to Canada in 1960 to 62 as a post-doctor fellowship on a scholarship from the National Research Council and I worked at the Mines branch in Ottawa, which is now called Center Center for Energy Minerals and energy I Read about the scholarship by accident In a scientific journal when I was doing research in radiochemistry at the University of Vienna Incidentally Canada was the first country to create this program of scholarship of first post-doctor fellowships It was Edgar Stacey director of National Research Council in Ottawa who thought of this in 1950 and His idea was to bring young scientists to Canada to keep young the age of Scientists in the National Research Council He also thought of persuading these scientists to stay in Canada In fact most of these scientists stayed in Canada after the determination of scholarship The mentors came later on when I when I was in Vienna, okay, and How how did you find the work environment in Canada compared to Egypt to where you had previously worked? I Was in Canada as a post-doctor fellowship, then I had to accept Temporary job in the United States and then I returned to I returned to Canada Many years after I spending in the United States I was in the teaching in the United States and then worked in the Industrial research and they came to Canada to Quebec Quake City in the Double University level I was teaching there. Okay, and Did did it was it just the opportunities from the jobs that brought you back to Canada? Was it Was there something you really enjoyed about Canada? Yes, I was I was In the United States in 1960 Tonight in 1907 in the 1960 there was no teaching jobs in the in the world except because At that time they want to the United States went to wanted to send man to the moon and Most of the jobs in the teaching jobs were material science and not extract the metallurgy and the only one was Extracting metallurgy was University, that's why I Accepted the shop Okay, and and what did your I accepted the shop only because I learned French in Egypt Before coming and I knew that the value versus French speaking alors vous avez vous avez vous vous étiez confortable Oui je prie I'm going course intensive the front sepour For refreshing my French after that I was alright. I was teaching French Etc. Etc. And so what what was your exact position in Lava? I was I Social first year was a business professor And then I became a social professor and after a couple of years. I was I became professor Although I was in the United States already as a social professor. Where did it? Where did you teach in the US? I was teaching extract metallurgy at the Montana School of Mines in Butte, Montana and In Nevada because you are still living in Quebec. So most of your career was at Lava. Yes, and so you must have taught a lot. Are there any Standout classes. Are there any courses or specific classes that you remember that? Had an impact on your your favorite classes No, I was teaching only extract metallurgy. I thought all areas of extract metallurgy The first year I taught general General course on extract metallurgy and then In the first in the second semester we we taught hydro metallurgy and then the semester after that is pyromythalurgy and Kinetics and I created a lab for extract metallurgy And when my colleague on Teaching electro metallurgy went on sabbatical. I also took his course So I taught all areas of extract metallurgy. And did you have a favorite? No, I find that extract metallurgy is only divided Into these areas for convenience of teaching, but you cannot separate them extract metallurgy is All these areas together Okay, and Did you join that threat your career? Did you join any professional organizations or? Yes, I why when I was in the United States. I first I Joined American chemical Society the Chemical American Chemical Engineering Society Metallurgical Society when I came to Canada I joined the Canadian Institute to find a good metallurgy Order of engineers in Quebec City I Think that's all And what were your roles in those organizations? I was a simple member. I did not hold any offices except in the When I was in the Metallurgical Society of CIM I was chairman of the historical Metallurgy Committee for about 20 22 years And I just stepped down a few years ago okay, and Now are you are you retired or? Yes, I retired about 1996 I retired but I kept my office at level And only last month I emptied my office and Decided to retire completely so now you're fully retired. No consulting. Yes Nearly fully retiring. Yes, because when I ask that question Pretty much everybody is no matter what their age is they're retired, but they're not really retired Yes, because after retiring I Gave so many intensive courses in Bolivia Peru Brazil and and I Traveled a lot. I was in Iran in India and Russia many times China I give a course in China a long time ago before The 80s I give courses in China At the time there were There were recovering from the culture revolution There is there was nothing really Scientific in China at the time, but now they are recovered completely Are there any memorable or favorite countries you taught in? You mean countries of cities or cities could be city Yeah, the most beautiful city I saw was Leningrad which is now some Peter's work because it was Planned by Peter the Great and it contains many Churches, beautiful churches palaces and The organization of the city is very well And we like it very much. I spent there three weeks and 1977 And then we went many many times after that So throughout your career you did you'd say you made a few Contributions to to the field of metallurgy What would you consider to be some of your biggest or proudest? accomplishments or or contributions to to the field of metallurgy Yes, I I can't summarize my contribution as solace I Thought all the areas of extractive metallurgy at Montana School of Mines from 1964 to 67 then at Levada University from 1970 to 96 when I retired Two years later. I was awarded The title of Professor Emeritus and between 1967 and 70 I Worked in Arizona at the research department of an a condo company While at the van I created new courses on extraction metallurgy laboratory where I designed simple experiments on on Leaching precipitation identification of metal ions in solution reduction, etc The most popular experiment was the reduction of copper sulfate by hydrogen Takes place at 400 degrees to get metallic copper and observation that 250 degrees The immediate product of copper keeper sulfate was formed another experiment was a reduction of by hydrogen of ferritized calciferite concentrate presence of all the time To get an alloy of copper and iron from which iron was removed to a dish. I Published a number of textbook on extractive metallurgy For example principle of extractive metallurgy in four volumes Which were updated in metals from ours textbook of hydrometallurgy textbook of final metallurgy kinetics of metallurgy care processes and pollution problems in the mining Mineral and metallurgy care industry. I was actually I was talking with someone at the trade show yesterday and they they studied in South Africa Yes, and she remembers that telling her about my project and she remembers having a textbook from you for school in South Africa. Yes, I I was in South Africa and I gave a course in Johannesburg Is this lady here in the conference? Yeah, she is she I Forget her booth. She has a booth. Yes, we we have to I have to see her Sure, I'll try to let her know I Will I give a course also in Indonesia? At that time, I think she's in Thunder Bay at the moment. That's okay Some of these books were translated in foreign language for example in Chinese Russian Farsi Vietnamese and in Arabic. I Published some monographs on specialized area of interactive metallurgy. For example, umpireite Calcobireite asbestos aluminum rare earths copper gold rhenium and mineral resource of our countries the American chemical Society asked me in 87 to prepare an audio course on metallurgy care chemistry, which I did It is now available on a CD with an accompanying book. I Published some books on the history of metallurgy For example, alchemy score of minds reading is historical metallurgy and the history of art of art. I Published some books on different subjects such as the cops of Egypt aqua science Chemistry and metallurgy in great empires Mining and civilization and science and technology in society. I edited the handbook of extractive metallurgy for volumes published by Wiley and Fawzi High in Germany. This is the first reference work for engineers and students working in this field. I edited progress in extractive metallurgy and international symposium Problems on complex or the utilization with my Russian colleagues Belograzov and Gallipak. I edited a book on alloys and the 9th Sculpture Heritage Symposium when the conference was held in Quebec City to document and To make available the metallurgy and heritage. I Reprinted with an introduction the English translation of the German book metallurgy chemistry by Gellert, which was also published in 1751. I Published two books on mining and metallurgy on postage stamps. I Was and still is a editorial board member of international journals for example Journal of European Mineral Processing and Environmental Protection in Turkey Mineral Processing and Extractive Metallurgy in London Dere Metallica in Madrid Journal of mining and metallurgy in Serbia Journal of mining and environment Tehran Journal of mining mineral processing and exploration also in Tehran in Lissuan Journal of my materials research and technology My severe in Amsterdam Can I stop you right there just for a second? I have a few a few questions. Yes First of all, tell me more about the two books on mining metallurgy on postage stamps. Yes This is a long story because I Am not a stamp collector but I found it a good idea to use to Because stamps are everywhere and are made by my artists and We use them every day and I try to collect stamps on to I have two friends to Help me they are stamp collectors to send me Samps with the motive of mining and metallurgy And they sent me about 900 stamps and the problem was to organize them into different groups and then I organize them and they at that time the The use of colored printing was Coming in age So I made use of this technology to print an enlarged replica of stamps in color Of this 900 stamps and I I published them as with my two colleagues as one book on Postage stamps in mining and metallurgy and the other book I published alone because I I I sent many papers to Different technical journals about which they were interested to publish pictures of stamps in this In their journals for example the general battles and Mining engineering and so on so I collected this in a book and called them The art of mining art a Mining Mining and metallurgy in our something like that. I don't remember the name but it was the I have two books on Postage stamp on mining and metallurgy. It's a very niche subject Yes, I was surprised that Many journals published now this this my art field in on postage stamps because you Could also there's a recurring theme here the environment or you had published a book also a textbook on pollution in the Mineral and metallurgy industry have a few here Environment could you tell me a bit more about your interest in that and yes, I was While teaching at Laval a professor of chemical engineering Wanted to to create a course on pollution because at the time pollution was interesting subject in this about the end of the end of the 70s and He asked many professors Mechanical engineering chemical engineering and better energy to teach Certain hours in their fields related to pollution so he He asked me to take about eight hours teaching pollution problems in mining and metallurgy and I had to to print my my lectures in a book and I made them available to students at that time and This by the way this book was translated in Percy also and in Vietnamese and in the Because I have had this conversation with a few people I interviewed Did your books have to do or like especially the pollution one did it have to do more with? effects caused by Mining certain minerals or was it more the opposite and it was defending? No, it was it was I explained the problems in these areas and how industry Moved to overcome this role. Okay, yes, how they created different Processes and added different equipment to eliminate to produce a problem. Okay, so the problem solution Solution work were the problem Okay, thank you Then we come back to My work my co-workers with my co-workers. I found out that Hydro-metallurgical process could be applied to phosphate rock That's avoiding pollution by fossil Gibson and can be more economical Also is my co-workers. We got a Canadian patent on the decreasing the toxicity of asbestos By coloring it to his organic diet. Could you tell me a bit more about that? Yes That's all that's also a very hot topic This this I consider my best work in this field We had the help from department a professor department of biochemistry in the faculty of medicine at Laval so we died the asbestos Fibers with different organic dyes and send it to him to test for their toxicity and he found out that Some dyes decrease the toxicity of asbestos greatly and That's why we get we got a patent on that. But unfortunately at that time We couldn't get Research funds continue our work Because at the time all research funds were given to lawyers to defend the case of Canada in the United States against Environmental agency in the United States and by the way they won the case but it was too late because after many years the post-doctor fellow in my group He left and I retired and that's why the project Did not was not followed up but we published many papers on this topic and we are satisfied that we get it we got a patent and unfortunately the the Asbestos industry collapsed completely in Canada and all in the world although the solution was to if if they color the asbestos they could decrease its toxicity and coloring asbestos in water And it's not a problem because most of the asbestos is used to make asbestos cement and They put asbestos in water to make the pipes of cement and this necessitates adding few coloring matters to the water and then It will not increase the The technology too much But as I said Industry collapsed completely. Would your patent be able to be applied? also to us to Solid structure because that's a lot of them. That's one of the reasons it collapsed There's the worries of Structures having loose asbestos or things like that. Could you really paint it or how would that work? It is a big problem and It is difficult to answer that now Because We Question of many buildings contain asbestos and If they left it as it is it would not to harm but the problem is they had to Demolish these buildings and expose the workers to asbestos and this is was I think my view was a Not a good decision But this is a big problem anyway So so could with your patent could that theoretically be applied for example on a building Could could you the asbestos be died or coded or something? No, most of probably We we die the fibers before it's you further installed before it's all okay But once in a salt is very difficult to To die them again So the asbestos Dying was also interesting for Japanese people and they came Here to Canada to to see me and discuss the problem, but unfortunately at that time also Japan Was again as the government Japan Japanese was against asbestos and they Prohibited importing The asbestos to Japan and again the research workers could not continue this work in Japan I Would also say that I I Published many papers on the history of metallurgy and to draw attention to the importance of Of history and I convinced the Librarian and the science library of Lava University To devote certain shelves to historical big books on Extracting metallurgy and foreign books. I received during my visits to Russia and China Hungary, Bulgaria and so on and this check section is now known as collection have a sheet I Gave some intensive courses in Brazil, Mexico and so on I was greatly surprised and very pleased when I received only the doctorates from St. Petersburg University of Mines and another one from National University of Technology in Lima, Peru and Still a third one from San Marcos University also in Lima in Lima, Peru Incidentally, I do not speak neither Russian Nor Spanish. I was gonna ask you that question. What languages do you speak? I speak English, French, German and Arabic is my native Okay, I thought you spoke German. How do you pronounce some of the names? Yes, because I spent more than five years in In Australia and Vienna. I studied in Vienna. I wrote my thesis in German and I published some papers also in German. I Attended many conferences and visit many universities many research centers Many industries and many museums. I Documented this in a five five thousand three hundred pages multi-volume book Which I called Der Metallica in metallurgies on the move published this year and is available to see in the bookstore in this conference By the way, all this information is available on the websites of Internet you can find all this information right on and just before we get to the next topic It's mentioned that you modified the periodic table Yes, I did That's kind of big Again, it's a big story, but I Found that periodic table at present where aluminum is under boron The is not Related to boron at all and if I move aluminum aluminum to the left to join the third group where is After the Alkaline metals and it will be It will be Active metal like this metal so aluminum is also an active metal Also, it is used in construction The reason for that is that aluminum is so active that once it is exposed to the air It forms an impermeable layer and prevents further oxidation So the most active metals are Lithium sodium potassium and so on they cannot they oxides rapidly in the air then the alkali metals alkaline earths are magnesium calcium barium and so on and then Aluminum should be in this group so I Makes I moved aluminum to be in this group of typical metals and Then I introduced the term less typical metals which are The group of metals that have 18 Electrons in the outermost in the layer after the outermost shell and then the the Transition metals are between the alkali metals and the less alkali with and then the inner Inner transition method so in this way It is the very easy to look at the periodic table and identify these groups Typical metals less typical metals Transition methods and inner transition method and I publish a couple of papers on this field specialized chemistry journals and I I feel that the students will benefit greatly by looking at the periodic table in this fashion Also the none the Metalloids if you open any chemistry book there is confusion who are the what are the metalloids and It is easy to identify them as the the look like Sometimes they look like better. Sometimes they look like nonmetals and They they differ from metals in that they are fragile. They are not material course direction and also an important point is that the bonding of the atoms in the metalloids are Covalent bond which is different from metals the metals are in that the electrons are They can move freely in the atomic structure and this makes a Difference between metalloids and and metals and I clarify this In the in my papers, for example, I publish a paper in the foundation of chemistry called metals Metals Typical and not typical Transition and inner transition And in this this paper I explained the point of view that Metals should be Identified well from none from metal eyes and was that past was it accepted? Yes, it was published long ago for at least five or six years ago and they and the periodic tables were Adapted or were changed no because Moving aluminum aluminum from the position in the strong story again because the Russian Union of Urine Applied Chemistry Named the metals one two three twenty eighteen and Mendeleev himself he named group one to eight and Divide them into a a and b but the problem was in North America a and b I was different from the continent what is a Group a in North America is group B in the in the continent and that's why the a Russian Union of Urine Applied Chemistry Decided to unify the naming of the groups But many people were against that and again I published a paper citing the Again is why people who are against and then I found that the compromise would be if We are we do not adopt Numbers for groups but names for example the typical methods the less typical the transition methods the inner transition and the nonmetals who are two groups in nonmetals like Balancy Monoatomic like Rare gases and the multi atoms Groups Nonmetals like oxygen phosphorus and sulfur and so on You You have a specific philosophy in life that you maybe like to share with us Yes, I I was brought up as a cop that is a Christian Egyptian I Occasionally went to church when I was young But when I grew up I started to think about creation the universe God and so on When I read in astronomy books That the universe is composed of billions of Constellations like our solar system. I started to think that it is futile to spend time thinking about creation Everything started from infinity and is going to infinity and we have only to discover the rules of nature The idea of God is our own creation and the ancient Egyptians worshiped many gods and the Pharaoh's made seen and the Pharaoh made himself a God He demanded his worship absolute respect and Absolute obedience. He created priests to make the necessary ceremonies of worship The Romans did the same with severe harshness Did someone in the East revolted on? Orchific Caesar. I Want also to talk about inspiration. I Have an admiration for the great composers who Who are really great? How did they create such wonderful melodies a Scientist can make experiments and advanced theories to explain them and Artists is talented because he or she can illustrate something things around us in an admirable way a poet can Arrange words to make a beautiful poem, but how to decrease to create such sweet Melodies that this is really an inspiration. Do you have any favorite composers or yes? I like very much Verdi because he created Wonderful melodies in his operas Jack Opsi created wonderful Melodies in his serenade and his symphonies. We cannot forget Beethoven and Mozart Schubert and so on Play any piano? I don't play any music. Unfortunately, but I I like to hear music and I Admire very much the work of the great was Absolutely, yeah, I'm a big music fan as well Is there anything else you'd like to add or? No, I finally tell you that about I have two children one in Toronto and the other in Orlando Florida and here is my Loving wife making pictures of our meetings And are you from Egypt as well? Okay, so you both came together? Okay, and what do your children do now? one in Toronto is Is he studied at La Valle University art? And he made a master's degree in art in Montreal But he left he's working also in art, but he left all that and is working On music from the computer and He's earning his living by Creating websites because he took a course on computers and so on and the other In Florida insisted that he wants he wanted to study Lightning in the theater and he had to go to Toronto to Ryerson University to study this and He is living in in Orlando, and he's doing very well with lighting because lighting now is Necessary for any event Sports event a culture event wedding Any event they need with lights and he is Doing that very well So they both they both went the opposite way Nothing nobody's Looking at science So I just have one last question for you if you were to If you were to be speaking to someone much younger like a student for example, what would be the one piece of advice or Yeah Or tip you can give them for their their life for their profession yes, I in fact I thought about that some time ago and I remembered I remembered Who was in upper in the player of Hamlet the old man Who gave advice to Hamlet saying neither borrower nor a blender be This is not actual now and I I advise young people to To study further to travel a lot and to write reports on what they see and and To get to study and get a master's degree and PhD because This help is a good investment for the future and Also they should should marry every life to be civilized and And raise a family And that's it Thank you very much good answer very good very full answer. Thank you. Thank you very much. Bye